16000 From: Sarah Date: Sun Sep 29, 2002 11:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] New Group Hi Rahula, Welcome to DSG. You certainly have an auspicious name and we’ll be glad to hear anything else about you, such as where you live or how you have developed your interest in dhamma and Pali. --- rahula_80 wrote: > Hi, > > There is a new discussion group (I am the moderator) to discuss the > error of Shakya Aryanatta's translation. > > Many have been misled by SA's translations including some of my > friends. ..... When I first started reading the Pali Canon translations there was a very limited selection - mostly just those published by the PTS and of course no internet. Sometimes I’d come across references to souls and footnotes on Christianity and I’d get somewhat annoyed. What I understand better now is that there is no deliberate attempt to mislead, but any translator will look at the texts and the materials according to his own understanding, even if he is a Pali expert. For example, ‘atta’ or ‘attan’ can refer to the reflexive pronouns, ‘myself’, ‘oneself’ etc or to ‘soul’ or ‘self’. If we say “attaana.m sukkheti piineti”, it should be translated as “he enjoys and pleases himelf”, but grammatically it could be translated (I think) as “he enjoys and pleases the soul”. Feminine nouns have the same ending for several cases, so again, grammatically they can often be translated ‘correctly’ in many ways which lead to quite different and important meanings. Christine raised the question of translations before. Of course it is very helpful if one can read Pali (not me ). Far more important, though, is the development of right understanding which will be able to discern what is right and what isn’t. Given a choice between good Pali and poor understanding and poor Pali and good understanding, I’d opt for the second. There are many variable translations available. Perhaps what is most helpful is to appreciate the good intentions of these efforts and meanwhile help to spread and encourage friends to read the ones that we think are most accurate according to Suttanta, Vinaya and Abhidhamma. Best wishes for your various projects meanwhile, Rahula. Sarah ==== 16001 From: Sarah Date: Mon Sep 30, 2002 1:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 4, Intro cont Hi Larry, --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > > What I'm trying to get at is a common sati that would arise in anyone, > not just a buddhist with a strong background in abhidhamma. .... Just a quick note on this one point - As you suggest, sati is not Buddhist or confined to those with a ‘strong background in abhidhamma’. Sati arises with all kusala (wholesome) cittas and at those moments keeps the mind from akusala (unwholesome states). It is mindful of what is ‘good’. So anytime someone gives or is kind or abstains from killing, there must be sati arising with the wholesome consciousness, regardless of whether anything is known about it. In other religions or philosophies, we’ll learn that giving is good and hating is bad and so on. Studying Buddhism in more detail, we’ll learn more precisely what is good (i.e. moments of consciousness rather than a long act or story) and exactly what is bad. For example, we may not speak out with harsh words and may smile pleasantly, but what about the consciousness with resentment, with attachment, with ignorance? Again, knowing more about these different states is not confined to Buddhism or abhidhamma only. Those who have developed high levels of samatha or jhana have very, very precise knowledge of the difference between moments of kusala and akusala. In this case the sati which arises with all wholesome states must be accompanied by panna (wisdom). However, it is not the panna that knows phenomena as anatta. Only when sati is accompanied by panna which knows realities as namas and rupas, as elements which are anatta, can the sati be referred to as satipatthana. Those that have not heard/read the Teachings in detail cannot know or develop satipatthana. This is because if there is not a clear theoretical understanding initially of what the paramattha dhammas are and what the objects of satipatthana can be, it cannot develop as I understand. It’s not a question of names or labels (one could call oneself a Buddhist, a phenomenologist or anythingelseist), but of truly knowing what the objects of satipatthana are and also understanding that all phenomena, including sati, are merely different mental and physical phenomena arising by conditions. Not sure if this helps or is controversial;-) Sarah ===== 16002 From: Date: Mon Sep 30, 2002 1:13am Subject: Informal Thoughts on Sati and Sa~n~na Re: [dsg] Way 4, Intro cont Hi, Larry - In a message dated 9/29/02 11:12:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > My take on the connection between sati and memory > comes most immediately from Soma Thera's words: > > "Mindfulness as memory is indicated by such terms as annussati = calling > to mind; patissati = remembrance; dharanata = bearing in mind; saranata > = recollection" > > ============================ Informally, based just on the usage I've come across in written discussions of meditation, I've always thought of 'sati' as designating the function of remembering to stay with the present moment of experience - of not becoming forgetful and "getting lost" in thought, reverie, or torpor. It seems to me that it is not attention per se, nor, is it, in this usage, general memory per se, but is a remembering or keeping in mind to maintain attention. So, as I think of it, 'sati' as used in the Dhamma doesn't mean memory, per se, but it has a clear memory aspect/flavor to it. Likewise, to me 'sa~n~na', with its meaning of recognition or cognition or perception, also does not mean memory, per se, but certainly has a clear aspect/flavor of memory to it. To recognize or (even wordlessly) identify something surely requires a mental trace of some sort, though not necessarily a memory in the usual sense. (I suspect that the *common* term 'memory', apparently not explicated in Abhidhamma, designates an amalgam of mental operations, and, in the common usage of the term, denotes a type of very large and complex mental process involving long trains of thought and multiple functions.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16003 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Sep 30, 2002 7:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 4, Intro cont Larry There are lots of useful references from relevant texts on the points you mention below, and also on the so-called 'memory' connection you bring up in a later post, in Nina's book 'Cetasikas'. I have pasted below a link to Ch. 6 'Mindfulness (sati). Jon http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas28.html --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Dear group, > > This section of the introduction is an exposition of several qualities > of mindfulness, see outline below. Is everyone in agreement on these? > What are the qualities of sati in citta process? Is there a difference > between the sati in citta process and satipatthana? Is there sati not > included in satipatthana? > > Larry > -------------------- > Outline: > > sati as memory: treassurer who reminds the king of his possessions day > and night. Possessions = sila, samadhi, panna + essentials of holy > living + resolve to realize all this. > > sati as care & protection of mind > > selecive aspect: discriminates between kusala & akusala > > integrative aspect: the organizing activity necessary for bringing about > kusala cittas. Sees all lacks and deficiencies. Integrative aspect is > considered the highest wisdom of mindfulness = sammasati. > > strong mindfulness: ignores unnecessary by adhering to the center of > business and extends its view to important periferal conditions. Balance > between width and depth of vision. > > as controling faculty (indriya): overcomes mental conflict, unclarity, > incapacity to judge aright, indefiniteness due to mental unquiet. Makes > for absence of confusion, lucidity, sound judgement, definiteness of > outlook. > > as spiritual power (bala): mindfulness accompanied by sustained energy. > The earnestness which destroys negligence. 16004 From: wink_1000 Date: Mon Sep 30, 2002 9:01am Subject: not new but here again. Hello all. I used to be here on the list, and then I went away and now I am back again. This time I managed to join the group without first insulting it on other e-mail lists. So I've made progress! :-) Anyway. I'm looking forward to your posts. D.W. 16005 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 30, 2002 10:01am Subject: Perfections by A. Sujin. Ch 6, Energy, no. 1 Perfections by A. Sujin. Ch 6, Energy, no. 1 The Perfection of Energy The Commentary to the ³Basket of Conduct² defines energy, viriya, as follows: Energy has the characteristic of striving; its function is to fortify; its manifestation is infatigability; an occasion for the arousing of energy, or a sense of spiritual urgency, is its proximate cause. The cetasika viriya, energy, accompanies almost all cittas, except sixteen ahetuka cittas, cittas that are unaccompanied by beautiful roots or unwholesome roots. Thus, whenever attachment and delight with regard to an object arises, the cetasika of energy accompanies that citta and performs its function of effort or energy for attachment and delight in that object. Be it akusala citta or kusala citta which arises, viriya cetasika accompanies that citta. When akusala citta arises viriya cetasika is effort for akusala, whereas when kusala citta arises, viriya cetasika performs its function of effort for kusala. The perfection of energy is effort or endeavour for kusala. There should be energy or effort for each kind of kusala and when developed, it can become the perfection of energy. When sati arises and is aware of the characteristics of realities that are appearing at this moment, there is not me or self who makes an effort to be aware, but it is the function of right effort, sammå-våyåma. Right effort, viriya cetasika, arises and endeavours to study with awareness, to notice and pay attention to the reality that is appearing. Right effort is effort or energy for paññå which understands that what appears through the eyes is only a kind of rúpa which does not last; or that the reality which is seeing is only an element, a characteristic of nåma-dhamma experiencing what appears through the eyes. This is the perfection of energy that endeavours to study the characteristics of realities appearing one at a time. It does not matter whether the perfection of energy and sati arise often or seldom, viriya is not weary of the task of studying and noticing the reality that appears. When viriya arises, there is no discouragement; viriya performs its task all the time even if the process of the development of understanding is extremely slow and difficult. The perfection of energy is most important and it should be developed together with the other perfections so that the appropriate conditions are accumulated for reaching the further shore, that is, nibbåna. Even kusala which is dåna, generosity, cannot be performed without viriya. People may have kusala citta with the intention to give things away, but it is difficult for them to act in accordance with their good intentions because they are lazy: when there is an object they could give away, they do not give it away. They have confidence in kusala and they have the intention to be generous, but when viriya necessary for the accomplishment of generosity is deficient, they are not able to accomplish generous deeds. Therefore, the perfection of energy is essential, because it assists the other perfections, such as generosity or morality. The perfection of energy is an indispensable support for all kinds of kusala. Sometimes we may be lax and too lazy to perform kusala, we may think that its performing is troublesome, that we are too tired, or that it is time consuming. At such moments we are overcome by akusala and hence kusala cannot arise. If we know that it is difficult for us to perform kusala because we are inert and lazy, we should at this very moment, immediately, apply ourselves with diligence to kusala. Life is extremely short, as it lasts just for one moment of citta and this moment may be kusala citta or akusala citta, depending on conditions. Therefore, we should not give in to laziness with regard to our task of performing kusala. If we are all the time inert and lazy, it is evident that the perfection of energy is lacking and therefore, there are no conditions for the elimination of akusala. The only way to eliminate akusala is to be diligent and energetic in the performing of all kinds of kusala as far as we are able to. 16006 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Sep 30, 2002 2:29pm Subject: Two very different statements Dear Group, I was intrigued by two statements that I read in the one evening. Perhaps they may stimulate reflection in others as well. "All things in the universe are one" (from a dhamma friend). "The teaching of the Buddha as found in the Pali Canon does not endorse a philosophy of non-dualism of any variety." (from Bhikkhu Bodh.). metta, Christine 16007 From: robmoult Date: Mon Sep 30, 2002 3:20pm Subject: Memory and Definition of Sati Hi Larry (and All), When preparing for my class on sati, I relied heavily on two recent books (both summarized in my Class Notes): - "Mindfulness in Plain English" by Ven. H. Gunaratana Mahathera. Full text available at http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/mfneng/mind0.htm - "The Noble Eightfold Path" by Bhikkhu Bodhi. Full text available at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/waytoend.html The definition of sati in these books focuses on "seeing things as they truly are". I looked up references to sati in some of the source texts. What I found was quite interesting (thanks, Larry, for prompting me to take up this search). Clearly, there is a link between sati and memory (I was wrong in my earlier post). I have come to the conclusion after reading the source texts (plus footnotes) that the "memory" aspect of sati is not the recollection of a previous instance of the object, but recollection of the ethical quality of the object. Mindfulness, clearly separating right from wrong (wholesome from unwholesome) sees things as they truly are. For example, when I "see a pen", I can remember: 1. Label (i.e. this is called a pen) 2. Instance (i.e. this is the blue pen that I bought yesterday) 3. Characteristics (i.e. a pen is used for writing) 4. This is a visible object Points 1, 2 and 3 above are papanca and I don't think that they belong to the Buddhist definition of sati. I see "remembering that this is a visible object" as mindfulness and means, "seeing things as they truly are". Not floating on the surface of the water like a pumpkin pushed by currents and wind, but penetrating directly to the foundation like a stone placed in water, not affected by currents and wind. Here is the result of my reading the original texts: Sekha Sutta (The Disciple in Higher Learning) M53.16: "He has mindfulness; he possesses the highest mindfulness and skill; he recalls and recollects what was done long ago and spoken long ago." Bhikkhu Bodhi's commentary on this verse is as follows, "Here the text explains sati, mindfulness, by reference to its original meaning of memory. The relationship between the two senses of sati – memory and attentiveness – may be formulated thus: keen attentiveness to the present forms the basis for an accurate memory of the past. MA takes the mention of sati here to imply all seven factors of enlightenment, among which it is first." The Questions of King Milinda, Book II (The Distinguishing Characteristics of Ethical Qualities), Chapter I, Verse 12: "The King said: `What, Nagasena, is the characteristic mark of mindfulness?' `Repetition, O king, and keeping up.' `And how is repetition the mark of mindfulness?' `As mindfulness, O king, springs up in his heart he repeats over the good and evil, right and wrong, slight and important, dark and light qualities, and those that resemble them, saying to himself: "These are the four modes of keeping oneself ready and mindful, these the four modes of spiritual effort, these the four bases of extraordinary powers, these the five organs of the moral sense, these the five mental powers, these the seven bases of Arahantship, these eight divisions of the Excellent Way, this is serenity and this is insight, this is wisdom and this emancipation." Thus does the recluse follow after those qualities that are desirable, and not after those that are not; thus does he cultivate those which ought to be practiced, and not those which ought not. That is how repetition is the mark of mindfulness.'" Footnote to the phrase "Repetition, O king, and keeping up" by translator (T. W. Rhys Davids): "Apilapana and upaganhana, both new words. This definition is in keeping with the etymological meaning of the word sati, which is `memory'. It is one of the most difficult words (in its secondary, ethical, and more usual meaning [I think this refers to the meaning of attentiveness, as opposed to memory]) in the whole Buddhist system of ethical psychology to translate. Hardy renders `conscience', which is certainly wrong; and Gogerly has `meditation' , which is equally wide of the mark. I have sometimes rendered it, `self-possession'. It means that activity of the mind, constant presence of mind, wakefulness of heart, which is the foe of carelessness, inadvertence, self-forgetfulness. And it is a very constant theme of the Buddhist moralist. Buddhaghosa makes `readiness', its mark." Dhamma-sangani (first book of Abhidhamma) Book I (The Uprising of Thoughts) Part I (Good States of Consciousness) Chapter I, Verse 14: "What on that occasion is the faculty of mindfulness (satindriyam)? The mindfulness which on that occasion is recollecting, calling back to mind; the mindfulness which is remembering, bearing in mind, the opposite of superficiality and of obliviousness; mindfulness as faculty, mindfulness as power, right mindfulness – this is the faculty of mindfulness that there then is." Footnote to the question by translator (C. A. F. Rhys Davids): "Buddhaghosa's comment on sati, in which he closely follows and enlarges on the account in Mil. 37, 38, shows that the traditional conception of that aspect of consciousness had much in common with conscience or moral sense. Sati (Sk. : smrti, memory) is in Buddhism not merely memory, but is lucid retention of both past and present. It appears under the metaphor of an inward mentor, discriminating between good and bad and prompting choice. Hardy went so far as to render it "conscience" but this slurs over the interesting divergences between Eastern and Western thought. The former is quite unmystical on the subject of sati. It takes the psychological process of representative functioning (without bringing out the distinction between bare memory and judgment), and presents the same under an ethical aspect." Visuddhimagga Part III (Understanding) Chapter XIV (Description of the Aggregates) Paragraph 141: "By its means they remember (saranti), or it itself remembers, or it is just mere remembering (sarana) thus it is mindfulness (sati). It has the characteristic of not wobbling. It function is not to forget. It is manifested as guarding, or it is manifested as the state of confronting an objective field. Its proximate cause is strong perception, or its proximate cause is the Foundations of Mindfulness concerned with the body, and so on (see M Sutta 10). It should be regarded, however, as like a pillar because it is firmly founded, or like a door-keeper because it guards the eye door, and so on. Footnote to "wobbling" by translator (Bhikkhu Nanamoli): "Apilapana (not wobbling) is the steadying of an object, the remembering and not forgetting it, keeping it immovable as a stone instead of letting it go bobbing about like a pumpkin in water." Let me close by quoting from the introductory essay of the PTS version of Abhidhammatthasangaha by Shwe Zan Aung under the section "Confusion in terminology": "I allude to the various renderings adopted by different Occidental scholars of Buddhist technical terms. To select a few out of many: The much abused term `thought' has been made by some to stand for cetana, by others for vitakka; again by others for vicara. Sanna (perception in the widest sense of the term) used to be rendered by `memory', as also was sati (presence of mind). The former term is, of course, nearer the mark; and yet to render sanna by `memory' is to confuse it with the higher process of memory, in which sanna may play a more prominent part than in any other process, but of which it (sanna) is only an element or factor. Even in a single stage of a concrete process, sanna would be more prominent in that of delimitation (votthabbana), apperception and identification, just as another element, attention (manasikara) is more active when mind adverts to sense stimuli. For the same reason, the element of registration or identification (tadarammana) should not be mistaken for a concrete process like memory. Thanks, Rob M :-) 16008 From: Date: Mon Sep 30, 2002 4:00pm Subject: Way 5, Intro cont "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html Introduction continued All that the Buddha taught from the time of his enlightenment to his passing away into the Element of Immortality has been summed up in the sentence: "strive with earnestness" the last words of the Master. Earnestness runs through the whole of the Buddhaword, and embraces everything there. It is like the elephant's footprint which is able to contain the footprint of any other animal. Therefore did the Blessed One say: "all wholesome things are founded on earnestness, converge on earnestness, and earnestness is to be considered as the most excellent of them." Mindfulness in this sense is found to be the chief characteristic of all skillful actions leading to bliss here and hereafter and tending to one's own and to other's profit. It is the force which pushes one to right practice, after one has given careful thought to the Buddha's Teaching. Life as it is understood in the Dispensation of the Buddha is unsatisfactory until one can through moral joy, meditative tranquillity and wise understanding reach mental invulnerability to suffering. The Way of Mindfulness is understanding and tranquillity illumined by a bright moral character. Without a blameless happy life of virtue it is not possible to tranquilize the heart or make the intellect keen and clear for spiritual perfection. The spiritual man is a person of so sensitive and heightened a consciousness that he finds even slight moral guilt burdensome and so he cannot help avoiding all traces of it by a strict adherence to virtue. Otherwise owing to remorse at his backslidings and preoccupation with them he will not find the right inner environment and climate for developing the placidity and insight which produce the power of perfect equanimity necessary for changing over from mental slavery to freedom. The cheerful joyous atmosphere which virtue gives is more necessary to the aspirant to Nibbana than anything else to keep him spiritually alive. Although the Discourse on the Arousing of Mindfulness does not speak of virtue directly, in detail, and is principally concerned with the calming of the mind and wise understanding, the presence of the virtue-foundation is implied, since the instruction on mindfulness is intended for the "unification of beings", and there is no purification in the Dhamma which does not begin with "purification of virtue" [sila visuddhi], and it is only after "purification of virtue" [sila patitthaya] that the wise man develops concentration, and wisdom and attains liberation. Further , there is enough in the commentary and the explanation to it, to prove the importance of virtue to the aspirant, and to show how tranquillity and understanding help in the protecting, the preserving, and the perfecting of virtue. The Way of Mindfulness moves towards the equanimity of the fully quieted mind along the firm and sure ground of active virtue. Because of this virtuous basis it is a reliable way to highest security, free from the bogs, swamps, and sloughs of vice and the dangerous, futility of inaction. Analysis is a salient feature of the method of arriving at knowledge in the Buddhadhamma. The Buddha is the Master of analytic knowledge and his doctrine is called the Teaching of Analysis [vibhajjavada]. The Way of Mindfulness is therefore naturally replete with the application of the principles of analysis. The sentient being is radically searched through manifold analysis to see if anything in him is unanalysable. Only that which is relative is analysable; only that which is conditioned and dependent on something else. The absolute, the unconditioned, and the independent are not analysable. Is there anything absolute in the sentient being, or is everything in the sentient being relative? The answer has to be found out by the aspirant, after being convinced by valid thought and experience, in order to reach the first glimpse of the goal. By training to think along the lines indicated in the Way he will be able to conclude with certainty what the nature of sentient individuality really is. On the immovable basis of such correct knowledge rests the final realization of supra mundane perfection. The aim of analysis in the Way of the Buddha is to attain correct understanding of the component parts of sentient existence and their relations, for rightly grasping the unique totality of the individual that emerges from the relations. Only a Buddha, however, has the ability to gauge the uniqueness of individual totality consummately. But the important thing to be noted here is that a just and generally accurate perception of the significance of the totality as a thing distinct from every other and possessing a character that clearly is not to be merely described or defined by the parts is the result of the team-work of the forces of wisdom and concentrated vision. Analysis of the parts lays bare the constituent components. Analysis of the relations gives a sense of the totality. All the differences that make for uniqueness are seen as due to subtle distinctions of relations. And the uniqueness of the personality, individuality, and entirety of a living being depends on the countless number of ever changing relations, their infinite variety, subtle nuances, and endless possibilities in each separate life-flux. The analytic nature of the Way leads one finally to the vision of the sentient being as a uniquely related totality that transcends the parts and has a character all its own. The sense of totality to which the logic of analysis leads is realized as true in the intensity of the absorptive or unifying activity of concentrative thought. Here, the development of penetrative insight [vipassana] combines with that of tranquilizing concentration [samatha], and each functions in a way that does not outstrip the other. Both gain uniformity of force. Through the overdoing of analysis there could be agitation. And indolence creeps in through too much of tranquillity. Searching analysis is predominantly intellective and is the work of insight. Wholehearted acceptance is principally intuitive and springs from the placidity of concentration. In the sense of yoking [yuganandhatthena] and of not letting (either) become overwhelming [anativattanatthena] contemplative balance is reached. That balance is manifested as the sober, serene, steadfast acceptance of the truth which analysis reveals. This is a middle way. It does not overlook any valuable knowledge or experience of the spirit and does not edge sideways but goes straight forward, intent on the Real, free from all biases. Though it looks within, it is aware of what is without. Along such a way one can transcend the narrow vision of a barricaded individuality and the indefinable looseness of view of a dissipated and disintegrated spirit. 16009 From: Date: Mon Sep 30, 2002 0:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Two very different statements Hi Christine Here is a nice little Sutta on "oneness". > Dear Group, > > I was intrigued by two statements that I read in the one evening. > Perhaps they may stimulate reflection in others as well. > > "All things in the universe are one" (from a dhamma friend). > > "The teaching of the Buddha as found in the Pali Canon does not > endorse a philosophy of non-dualism of any variety." (from Bhikkhu > Bodh.). > > metta, > Christine > Samyutta Nikaya XII.48 Lokayatika Sutta The Cosmologist Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. Staying at Savatthi. Then a brahman cosmologist went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to the Blessed One, "Now, then, Master Gotama, does everything exist?" "'Everything exists' is the senior form of cosmology, brahman." "Then, Master Gotama, does everything not exist?" "'Everything does not exist' is the second form of cosmology, brahman." "Then is everything a Oneness?" "'Everything is a Oneness' is the third form of cosmology, brahman." "Then is everything a Manyness?" "'Everything is a Manyness' is the fourth form of cosmology, brahman. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering. "Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-& -form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering." "Magnificent, Master Gotama! Magnificent! Just as if he were to place upright what was overturned, to reveal what was hidden, to show the way to one who was lost, or to carry a lamp into the dark so that those with eyes could see forms, in the same way has Master Gotama -- through many lines of reasoning -- made the Dhamma clear. I go to Master Gotama for refuge, to the Dhamma, and to the Sangha of monks. May Master Gotama remember me as a lay follower who has gone to him for refuge, from this day forward, for life." **************** Take Care Steve 16010 From: Date: Mon Sep 30, 2002 4:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Memory and Definition of Sati Dear Rob, Wow! What a treasure trove. Great research Rob. This one should definitely go in the Useful Posts file. Eventhough it still makes sense to me to label the recognition of breath or unpleasant feeling as a function of sati, I am willing to abandon that idea in the light of this evidence. On my reading, sati is actually an ethical cetasika regardless of buddhist doctrine. This definitely sheds a new light on mindfulness. Thanks very much. Jolly good show! Larry 16011 From: vimmuti Date: Mon Sep 30, 2002 4:54pm Subject: nimita or sign when we concentrate on a small area of the body the area of the concentration develops its own sensation after a while. is this is what is meant by nimita and that we should shift our primary attention to it?......henry 16012 From: vimmuti Date: Mon Sep 30, 2002 5:01pm Subject: whoops... i am also telling some young people on paltalk that the primary of the first foundation of Mindfullness is sensation and if touch the tactile pure stimuli and not the concept of touch itself is the object for meditation... is that in line with the Mahasatipathana and the vimmutimagda? 16013 From: Date: Mon Sep 30, 2002 6:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 4, Intro cont Jon, Thanks for the link and thanks to Nina for writing it. This accords nicely with Rob's quotes and adds something on the relationship between sati and vipassana. Sati is the remembrance of vipassana applied to the object. If I had read it before it had never stuck in my mind that sati is the remembrance of kusala; in this case the kusala of seeing anicca, dukkha, anatta, or, on a mundane level, at least the idea of anicca, dukkha, anatta. There has always been a lingering frustration with not experiencing a genuine insight while practicing mindfulness of breathing. Any thoughts that may have arisen, even thoughts about dhamma, I had dismissed as distractions. I think this added dimension of memory will definitely perk up the practice and make it more meaningful. Plus, I think the mere activity of sitting there in the meditation posture cultivating alert tranqulity is kusala and as such is an integral part of the sati proceedure. I'm sure I have been told this before, but it has always gone in one ear and out the other. Larry --------------------- Jon: "Larry There are lots of useful references from relevant texts on the points you mention below, and also on the so-called 'memory' connection you bring up in a later post, in Nina's book 'Cetasikas'. I have pasted below a link to Ch. 6 'Mindfulness (sati). Jon http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas28.htm " 16014 From: Date: Mon Sep 30, 2002 7:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 4, Intro cont Hi Sarah, Thanks for bringing out these points about sati as cetasika. Is sati the faculty that discriminates between kusala and akusala? Larry 16015 From: Date: Mon Sep 30, 2002 7:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] whoops... Hi Henry, I don't know the answer to the question on nimita but for what you said below I would say that is a good basic introductory instruction. If you want to go into more detail you might look here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html We are studying that text under the subject heading Way 1, Way 2 etc. I think it will be several weeks before we get to mindfulness of breathing. Larry --------------- Henry: "i am also telling some young people on paltalk that the primary of the first foundation of Mindfullness is sensation and if touch the tactile pure stimuli and not the concept of touch itself is the object for meditation... is that in line with the Mahasatipathana and the vimmutimagda?" 16016 From: Date: Mon Sep 30, 2002 3:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Four Sublime States (long message) Hi, Antony - In a message dated 9/4/02 12:43:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, antony272b@h... writes: > > Dear Howard and all, > > Here is an extract from Majjhima 95 about safeguarding the truth. > > "But to what extent, Master Gotama, is there the safeguarding of the truth? > > To what extent does one safeguard the truth? We ask Master Gotama about the > > safeguarding of the truth." > > "If a person has conviction, his statement, 'This is my conviction,' > safeguards the truth. But he doesn't yet come to the definite conclusion > that 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' To this extent, > Bharadvaja, there is the safeguarding of the truth. To this extent one > safeguards the truth. I describe this as the safeguarding of the truth. But > > it is not yet an awakening to the truth. > > "If a person likes something... holds an unbroken tradition... has > something > reasoned through analogy... has something he agrees to, having pondered > views, his statement, 'This is what I agree to, having pondered views,' > safeguards the truth. But he doesn't yet come to the definite conclusion > that 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' To this extent, > Bharadvaja, there is the safeguarding of the truth. To this extent one > safeguards the truth. I describe this as the safeguarding of the truth. But > > it is not yet an awakening to the truth." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn095.html > > with metta / Antony. > ============================ I like this very much! Gee, it seems ole Sakyamuni had few things on the ball! LOL! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16017 From: Date: Mon Sep 30, 2002 3:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Two very different statements Hi, Christine - In a message dated 9/30/02 5:30:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > > Dear Group, > > I was intrigued by two statements that I read in the one evening. > Perhaps they may stimulate reflection in others as well. > > "All things in the universe are one" (from a dhamma friend). > > "The teaching of the Buddha as found in the Pali Canon does not > endorse a philosophy of non-dualism of any variety." (from Bhikkhu > Bodh.). > > metta, > Christine > ============================== Here's my arrogant answer: They are both wrong! All dhammas *are* alike in being anatta, and they are interdependent. However, they are not "one". Nonduality is not unity, and a philosophy of nonduality need not be monism. Unity is one extreme, and a multiplicity of self-existing things is another, but the non-duality of dependent origination is the middle way. That's my take. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16018 From: Date: Mon Sep 30, 2002 4:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Two very different statements Hi, all - I just wrote the following reply to Christine. I wrote it before reading the post from Steve (Bodhi2500@a...) in which he provides the sutta "Samyutta Nikaya XII.48 Lokayatika Sutta The Cosmologist". Had I read this first I wouldn't have bothered writing my post - the Buddha said it all, and, of course, much better! ;-)) With metta, Howard In a message dated 9/30/02 10:57:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: > > Hi, Christine - > > In a message dated 9/30/02 5:30:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > cforsyth@v... writes: > > > > > > Dear Group, > > > > I was intrigued by two statements that I read in the one evening. > > Perhaps they may stimulate reflection in others as well. > > > > "All things in the universe are one" (from a dhamma friend). > > > > "The teaching of the Buddha as found in the Pali Canon does not > > endorse a philosophy of non-dualism of any variety." (from Bhikkhu > > Bodh.). > > > > metta, > > Christine > > > ============================== > Here's my arrogant answer: They are both wrong! > All dhammas *are* alike in being anatta, and they are > interdependent. > However, they are not "one". Nonduality is not unity, and a philosophy of > nonduality need not be monism. Unity is one extreme, and a multiplicity of > self-existing things is another, but the non-duality of dependent > origination > is the middle way. That's my take. > > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16019 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Oct 1, 2002 1:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] not new but here again. Hi again, DW. I think I remember you. Is there a military connection there? Anyway, wlecome back. Please feel free to join in the discussion any time. Jon --- wink_1000 wrote: > Hello all. > > I used to be here on the list, and then I went away and now I am back > again. This time I managed to join the group without first insulting > it on other e-mail lists. So I've made progress! :-) > > Anyway. I'm looking forward to your posts. > > D.W. 16020 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Oct 1, 2002 1:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Two very different statements/Steve Hi Steve, Thanks for the Sutta ... I don't think I'd seen it before, though the paticcasamuppada is familiar. There certainly isn't anything new under the sun. The study of Cosmology 2500 years ago? ... today it is a branch of astrophysics. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Bodhi2500@a... wrote: > Hi Christine > Here is a nice little Sutta on "oneness". > Samyutta Nikaya XII.48 > Lokayatika Sutta > The Cosmologist > > Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > For free distribution only. > > Staying at Savatthi. Then a brahman cosmologist went to the Blessed One and, > on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of > friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, > he said to the Blessed One, "Now, then, Master Gotama, does everything > exist?" "'Everything exists' is the senior form of cosmology, brahman." > "Then, Master Gotama, does everything not exist?" "'Everything does not > exist' is the second form of cosmology, brahman." "Then is everything a > Oneness?" "'Everything is a Oneness' is the third form of cosmology, > brahman." "Then is everything a Manyness?" "'Everything is a Manyness' is the > fourth form of cosmology, brahman. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata > teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition > come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes > consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. > From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the > six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a > requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition > comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes > clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes > becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a > requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, > & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of > stress & suffering. "Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that > very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of > fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of > consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-& > -form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the > six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact > comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the > cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of > clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the > cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of > birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, > pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire > mass of stress & suffering." "Magnificent, Master Gotama! Magnificent! Just > as if he were to place upright what was overturned, to reveal what was > hidden, to show the way to one who was lost, or to carry a lamp into the dark > so that those with eyes could see forms, in the same way has Master Gotama -- > through many lines of reasoning -- made the Dhamma clear. I go to Master > Gotama for refuge, to the Dhamma, and to the Sangha of monks. May Master > Gotama remember me as a lay follower who has gone to him for refuge, from > this day forward, for life." > > **************** > > Take Care > Steve 16021 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Oct 1, 2002 1:29am Subject: Re: for the mind to be alive and interested.../KenH Hi KenH, I think the scripture you refer to is about Kisa Gotam (frail Gotami). http://www.geocities.com/zennun12_8/kisagotami.html Thanks for the 'froth and bubble' quote - it brought back memories ... (I remember having to learn parts of ALG's "Ye wearie wayfarer" by heart for talking in class.) metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Anthony and Christine, > > Christine wrote: > ----------- > > You may be surprised at the understanding some people > have of what the Scriptures actually say of 'what metta > is' and 'to whom it should be pervaded'. I was. > > ------------ > > So was I Christine, but it confirmed something we Aussies > were taught at primary school: > > "Life is mainly froth and bubble, > Two things stand like stone; > Kindness in an other's trouble, > Courage in your own." > (Adam Lindsay Gordon) > > We are all suffering but we apply a different therapy to > other people's suffering than we apply to our own. We > don't tell someone who is grieving, "there is grief > here but there is no self who grieves;" the perception of > insensitivity would only add to their suffering. > > It makes me think of that sutta (sorry, no ref.), in > which the Buddha told an inconsolable bereaved mother to > find a household that had not known bereavement and bring > back a pinch of mustard seed. I suppose the woman > thought at first, that she was being offered a medication > of some sort. Had the Buddha simply said, "dukkha is > everywhere," the beauty of that truth would have been > lost on her. > > Kind regards > Ken H 16022 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Oct 1, 2002 1:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Two very different statements/Howard Hi Howard, I like your take! Concise, no-frills and understandable. Thanks. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Christine - > Here's my arrogant answer: They are both wrong! > All dhammas *are* alike in being anatta, and they are interdependent. > However, they are not "one". Nonduality is not unity, and a philosophy of > nonduality need not be monism. Unity is one extreme, and a multiplicity of > self-existing things is another, but the non-duality of dependent origination > is the middle way. That's my take. > > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16023 From: robmoult Date: Tue Oct 1, 2002 2:07am Subject: Proximate Cause of masculinity, femininity, heart base Hi All, Does anybody know the proximate cause of masculinity, femininity and heart base? I suspect that it might be sankhara; according to paticcasamuppada, patisandhi-citta depends upon sankhara to arise and it is the patisandhi-citta which has the characteristics to masculinity / femininity and heart base. Comments? Thanks, Rob M :-) 16024 From: Sarah Date: Tue Oct 1, 2002 3:25am Subject: Way - comments on introductions-S Dear Larry & All, I have quite a few parts of the introductions so far marked for comment. I usually prefer not to make comments when the writer cannot reply and has offered this wonderful gift, but as this edition of the translation is so well-read and has been posted here for discussion, I think it’s important to raise a few points which I may also pass on to B.Bodhi. Of course, these are merely my personal views only: Foreward by Cassius A.Pereira ====================== 1. Unusual vocabulary (lost on me) used in translations, eg “diapason” in “Resound thus, O Bhikkhus, your swelling diapason of just rejoicing” in the first para. 2. Questionable comments and description, eg “..the text reflects the course of the aspirant’s progress in watchful thinking, even as verses in a gallop rhythm can picture the speeding rider and the steady beat of a horse’s hooves”. 3. Unsupported generalisations, eg “He who begins this practice of Satipatthana finds that indeed he needs must rein in his thoughts sharply and often.” 4. Unclear comments and suggestions of ‘self’, eg “But, as a rider slide as it were into the way of its doing, on a bicycle, or a trotting horse -- so in his practice the Yogi gradually falls in with “its way” till, after a while, its working seems smooth and clear.” Intro by Soma Thera (first half) ======================= 1. Ambiguous and suspect comments, eg “The seeker knows to a certainty that what he wants is to be found in the realm of the spirit. there alone he feels he would reach the vision of oneness (ekatta).......etc”, “Right Understanding and its group......is rational. And when it is combined with Right Concentration.....it is intuitive”, “the knowledge of things gained from different relations and different angles...”, “This is a middle way. It does not overlook any valuable knowledge or experience of the spirit.....Along such a way one can transcend the narrow vision of a barricaded individuality and the indefinable looseness of view of a dissipated and disintegrate spirit.” 2. Questionable comments about mindfulness (satipatthana), eg “Mindfulness as memory” is rather misleading to me, but this is being discussed separately. Also “Mindfulness as the activity that takes care of the mind and protects it”, “Strong mindfulnes ignores the unnecessary, by adhering to the center of the business in hand......By such a balance between width and depth mindfulness steers clear of the extremes of lopsided vision and practice.” 3. Inaccurate comments about satipatthana, eg “Without mindfulness there will be no reconstitution of already acquired knowledge and consciousness itself would break into pieces, become fragmentary, and be unable to do properly the work of cognition.” .Also “the aim of analysis in the Way of the Buddha is to attain correct understanding of the component parts of sentient existence and their relations, for rightly grasping the unique totality of the individual that emerges from the relations.” 4. Suggestions of the wrong view of a self that is mindful, eg “When one is strongly mindful, one plants one’s consciousness deep in an object like a firm post well sunk in the ground”,“The analytic nature of the Way leads one finally to the vision of thesentient being as a uniquely related totality that transcends the parts and has a character all its own.” 5. Comments on virtue unsupported by the sutta or other texts and also ambiguous, eg “The spiritual man is a person of so sensitive and heightened a consciousness that he finds even slight moral guilt burdensome......”, “The cheerful joyous atmosphere which virtue gives is more necessary to the aspirant to Nibbana than anything else to keep him spiritually alive.”, “...it is only after “purification of virtue” (sila patitthaya) that the wise man develops concentration, and wisdom and attains liberation.” 7. Suggestions that satipatthana is intellectual (“thinking” or “analysis”) rather than direct understanding and awareness, eg “By training to think along the lines indicated in the Way he will be able to conclude with certainty what the nature of sentient individuality really is.”, “the sentient being is radically searched through manifold analysis to see if anything in him is unanalysable”, “Searching analysis is predominantly intellective and is the work of insight.”, “Through the overdoing of analysis there could be agitation. And indolence creeps in through too much of tranquillity”. ********** I believe there are so many errors, questionable comments and ambiguities unspported by texts in these introductions, that it would be more useful to present the Sutta and commentaries (preferably in full) with the Translator’s Note and no introductions, than to include these ones by C.Pereira and Soma Thera himself. I apologise if these comments seem too strong or offensive to anyone. Sarah ===== 16025 From: vimmuti Date: Tue Oct 1, 2002 4:58am Subject: need a little dhamma wisdom plz yester day i asked 2 questions, Based on: The Four Arousings of Mindfulness "What are the four? "Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly comprehending (it) and mindful (of it), having overcome, in this world, covetousness and grief i would like to know if the pure and unqualified by mental labeleling tactile sensation (if using a touch kasina) is the primary object.. and do you feel the nimita or sign acquired when momentary concentration is acheived is a physical construct of the process of concentration.. thanks...henry 16026 From: Sarah Date: Tue Oct 1, 2002 5:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] need a little dhamma wisdom plz Hi Henry, Welcome to DSG. I see you've started with two tricky questions and I expect others are considering replies. Some of us are always quite behind, so don't worry if there's some delay. Let me look quickly at your first Qu.: --- vimmuti wrote: > yester day i asked 2 questions, Based on: > > The Four Arousings of Mindfulness > "What are the four? > "Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating the body in the body, > ardent, > clearly comprehending (it) and mindful (of it), having overcome, in > this world, > covetousness and grief > > i would like to know if the pure and unqualified by mental labeleling > tactile sensation (if using a touch kasina) is the primary object.. > ..... As you know, we're discussing the Satipatthana Sutta (still on the introductions) and will be looking at this in more detail. When there is awareness of rupa (physical phenomena), experienced through any sense door, it is clear that only that rupa is experienced. Through the body door, this may be hardness/softness, heat/cold, motion/pressure. Anything else, including 'kasina' is a concept. These rupas are different from the consciousness (bodily experiencing if it's the body door) that experiences the object. As you suggest (I think), mental labelling is not the same as awareness or sati. I'm in a bit of a rush, so this may not sound very clear....let me know. Why not also introduce yourself and tell us a little more about your interest in Buddhism and where you live? Hope you find it useful on DSG, Sarah ====== 16027 From: vimmuti Date: Tue Oct 1, 2002 6:32am Subject: ok Sarah First, my oldest daughters name is sarah so this feels like i found a good place. Been doing vipasana for about 30 years, mentors are Ven Piyananda, Mahasi Sayadaw, Satgayi U Ba Kin and currently Bhante Gunaratana where i am an occasional driver at his center. Mrs. Ruth Denison was my teacher... Do work for Wat Rangsee in Sterling Va. Was up in Vancouver about two weeks ago visiting the big temple in Richmond B.C. when i thought to myself, "what if we threw everything out except the practice, what would it look like as a daily video broadcast on the web, hmmm. So i built a little sit and chat channel on an ap called Paltalk and it is going pretty good. Here's an excerpt from a video chat on the 21st: Welcome Msg: Let's celebrate life for the whole human family with an informal buddhist sit each weekday. Whatever your religious persuasion we are all in this neat thing called "being" together. So let's dance and give thanks....:-) FlipperLaugh: www.bluemountainzendo.org quietmind1: the last place i wud go, seriously... quietmind1: well, maybe not the last////but it reeks of egoism and psychosis... quietmind1: how do i know... Well i helped kessei with the audio on his first web page... FlipperLaugh: yea you never finished FlipperLaugh: I have been waiting a year quietmind1: you could have had it if you had cooperated by simple yes and no answers but i and purplehaze another helper agree you are to lost in your own self importance... quietmind1: to=too for today FlipperLaugh: lol quietmind1: be well and happy, kessei... FlipperLaugh: now finish those sound bites and stop wasting time quietmind1: wanna hear the environmental background i think i will use for the sit portion of this show? quietmind1: you cud have had this plus your talks as a split two channel audio.. quietmind1: like white noise thru the right speaker... a looped chant very low and the instructions as we sit thru the left... FlipperLaugh: cool FlipperLaugh: I have yet to find out how to keep the music on throughout the page FlipperLaugh: page does not know how either FlipperLaugh: opps paz quietmind1: you will also notice no symbols. no heavy religion just sitting if you come... FlipperLaugh: I am a buddhist FlipperLaugh: but I understand why you would want to keep it neutral FlipperLaugh: being from the tradition you are in that is shocking quietmind1: well this is Kiss buddhism.... Keep It Simple, Stupid buddhism quietmind1: and who are we presenting this too. The Pali society...dont think so FlipperLaugh: Let Thich Nhat Hanh do that quietmind1: yeah. let him hinayana, mahayana, and this is the vehicle for dumb folks like you and me... vmh100: are we meditating? quietmind1: cud be... want to? vmh100: what??? quietmind??? quietmind1: yeah sure... know how quietmind1: do a 35min? quietmind1: flipper keeps time? vmh100: huh??? please give us some instruction quietmind1: want some intro v? vmh100: sure quietmind1: got to put me on your buddy list so i can shoot you the text... quietmind1: ready? vmh100: done quietmind1: ok got a pillow or cushion? vmh100: thanks FlipperLaugh: well I come here to hang out FlipperLaugh: not here to do zazen quietmind1: how about the pillow question? vmh100: I am reading the instruction now quietmind1: well that's ok, go tou have a webcam flip? quietmind1: read as do you.... FlipperLaugh: sure I do FlipperLaugh: I need some tampoons to make a kesa FlipperLaugh: do you have a kesa quiet? quietmind1: but, this room is not about a whole bunch of things. might be about 10 precepts and the reasons behind them or the four noble truths but not about things like reincarnation or buddhist cosmology or soul/no soul. quietmind1: just sit and then go over to smilingones pad if you want to chat is how i see it... FlipperLaugh: ahh quietmind1: how ya doing V? quietmind1: oh flip do you know how to use this ap to make everyone an administrator? vmh100: good FlipperLaugh: yes vmh100: why do we need to note the sensations when we experience them? FlipperLaugh: give me your code quietmind1: kuul ya wanna try the mindfulness of breath for say 10 mins...? quietmind1: ok, so that's how....thnks... quietmind1: vmh, what do you need to know so we can sit? vmh100: what are the benefits of vipassana? quietmind1: ok, i will show you but i have a lot of variations and styles for new meditators to help.. watch the video.... vmh100: where is the video? FlipperLaugh: quiet do you have it on DVD? vmh100: hello quietmind, are you still there? quietmind1: see you don't need much to get started.... quietmind1: did you click on the camera v? vmh100: yes, I see you sitting in a lotus position quietmind1: ok, now do you have a cushion or a pillow. And how do you think you could use it to sit quietly for some time? vmh100: i am sitting in a chair vmh100: i am sitting half lotus quietmind1: ok a chair is ok, but there is a but here. We use a chair for all sorts of things. It might be better to choose a special meditation position so that it reminds you what you are doing... got me? vmh100: there is a bell on my computer that rings every 15 miniutes and I stop doing everything and just pay attention to my breathe. vmh100: yes quietmind1: now do you have a pillow or cushion that you can put on the floor? vmh100: do i open or close my eyes while meditating? vmh100: yes quietmind1: in the beginning closed eyes are preffered as it reduces sensory distraction. After a couple months it doesn't matter. vmh100: ok quietmind1: ok i will show you 3 beginner postures suitable for people new to seated meditation. they are the tailors. the lions, and the womans... quietmind1: ready? quietmind1: camera on? vmh100: :) vmh100: yes vmh100: i can sit in half lotus vmh100: but gradually i want to sit in full lotus position quietmind1: did you identify all 3? vmh100: no i did not see any change on the video quietmind1: interesting????? quietmind1: do you see the screen get dark? vmh100: that's ok, i can sit in half lotus vmh100: no quietmind1: well, let's think about that for a sec.... the standard time of northern buddhist for a sit is about 45mins but for southern asian people it sometimes extends for as much as 3 hours.. How long do you think you can sit in half lotus without wiggling around or in pain? vmh100: not too long, because I am a beginner vmh100: about 15 minutes vmh100: what position are u sitting in the video? vmh100: it doesn't look like a lotus position? quietmind1: i picked the 35mins as a time i thought people should shoot for but i don't expect it. And i think it takes about 10 or 15 mins from the start to begin to get focused on the breathe.... quietmind1: i am sitting at my desk at the moment but yes i use a full lotus but i have been doing this for 30 years... vmh100: do u sit alone or with a group? quietmind1: both i sit 45mins twice a day and occasionally go to the temple... vmh100: i find sitting or practicing alone i tend to get lazy vmh100: i don't have a sangha to go to quietmind1: well that is why a little symbollic action can be a great help.. quietmind1: where do you live? vmh100: in canada quietmind1: symbollic means special position for body and hands, bowing. preliminary recital of prayer or wish, things like that vmh100: and you do that in your house with your family? quietmind1: what big town. i was just up in vancouver and it was loaded with buddhist temples. 32 flavors almost... quietmind1: yes/... vmh100: where are you from? quietmind1: virginia in the us vmh100: i am from a small town 100 km near Toronto quietmind1: on a mountain in the blue ridge appalachians.. vmh100: no buddhist or temple here that i know off vmh100: are you monastic or lay person? quietmind1: yeah, you could go to toronto once a month or something... vmh100: maybe. quietmind1: i am a worker for the Bhavana Society in Gore va and a lay person. Monks cant drive so i do that for them occasionally vmh100: oh vmh100: I would like to become a monk very soon quietmind1: how old are you? vmh100: 30 HaSsaWe: HI vmh100: hi hassawe quietmind1: ok, go to www.bhavanasociety.org and check out the Theravadin novice monk program. And i will end up driving you around too,,, vmh100: :) quietmind1: i mean it..... but in the meantime can i pop a couple more ideas on meditation? vmh100: have you heard of the vietnamese Buddhist monk Thich Nhat Hanh quietmind1: yep, sure have, good writer and spokesperson for vietnamese buddhism HaSsaWe: c u ..i think i didn't get it bye quietmind1: bye quietmind1: what do you think focus on your breath means. Tell me how you would do that vmh100: yes I am thinking going to his monastery and practise vmh100: following the breathe, just feel the breathe coming in, and feel it going out. vmh100: know that's it the in breathe, and it's out breathe quietmind1: sort of. you fix your attention to where the greatest sensation of moving air is, cud be your nostrils, could be your upper lip cud be your sinus cavity in your nose,,, vmh100: ok quietmind1: you do not follow the inhalation or exhalation only the sensation got it? quietmind1: at one point... vmh100: i think i felt it in my nostril and abdominal quietmind1: the diaphram between your lungs and stomach is another good place but it is more complicated as you are now feeling a result and not the breath itself...got me? vmh100: yes quietmind1: we are interested in primary tactile sensation,,, quietmind1: let's try an experiment without even sitting, ok? vmh100: so is the nostril a good place to feel the sensation of the breathe? quietmind1: yes the experiment islet's see in one minute how long we can hold on to that sensation only without wandering around in our minds, ok? vmh100: yes quietmind1: ready. set. go........:-) quietmind1: ok!!!!! we did it,,,,, vmh100: :) quietmind1: ok now the wandering test. Me i was wandering about 70% of the time... You? vmh100: i felt some itch, some thought on this conversation, noise from outside quietmind1: good than you and i both know the difference between focus and non focus on a tactile stimuli... so that's great... vmh100: is that normal? quietmind1: now we have to work out a strategy so we are a hundred percent focused because in budd med that is called access concentration vmh100: access concentration? quietmind1: oh yes that is quite normal and an amazing thing occured. You noticed how flipflop your mind is. Imagine what comes up in an hour sit...:-) vmh100: yes many distraction quietmind1: ok, now do you have time on monday to sit with me at 5:30 EST? quietmind1: pm vmh100: sure, i will here vmh100: can I ask you some questions? quietmind1: kuul, we will do a 35min shot at concentration (i don't expect you to sit it thru) and then compare notes. One last thing and i have to go cut the grass,,,, quietmind1: counting and preliminary wish vmh100: are the Buddha's other basic teachings like the Four Noble Truth and Eightfold Path just as important as meditation? quietmind1: it is possible to partial block wandering mind by forming a nuemonic repetitious loop of verbal constructs. One good way is as the breathe touches your skin area on an inbreathe note 1. next breathe note 2, maybe up to 5 and then start over again... quietmind1: yes, probably more important and they lead to a lot of conjecture and anger and misunderstanding on paltalk as you know... vmh100: I see a lot of Westerners concentrate mainly on meditation and tend to ignore the Buddha's other essential teachings vmh100: maybe they think it conflict with their belief system vmh100: and from the asian side, some do a lot of worship and rituals and nothing to do with the Buddha's teachings quietmind1: Buddhism is an experiential religion that is growing. The size of the various books that are and have been written would fill a soccer stadium, Westeners get very confused as to what was meant. I am not teaching buddhism although i know a lot about it. I am trying to present the source as a living means quietmind1: if you joined me and flipper early enough that was why she left the channel, vmh100: if you don't teach the essence of the Buddha's teaching, beside just meditation, you missed out a lot vmh100: i know u are trying not to offend some of the people from other belief system vmh100: but the Buddha's teachings are not dogmatic quietmind1: ok, but by limiting myself on this channel to a nonverbal nonconjectural tiny bit that i understand very well i think i can interest young people in looking at the big picture... quietmind1: after all, i am not the dalai lama, just a guy who knows how to do vipasana meditation and has done it a loooong time...:-) vmh100: :) 30 years wow quietmind1: thirty years to life was my sentence and here i am... vmh100: i came to Buddhism several years ago when I read a book by Thich Nhat hanh "Peace is every step" vmh100: that book changed my outlook on life and buddhism quietmind1: he use to be published by the wheel society in kandy Sri Lanka and i use to read his zen stuff... quietmind1: this was when he was in saigon in the 70's. Good man, good heart... quietmind1: ok did you get the counting idea thatt habituates itself? vmh100: his explaination of Buddhism make a lot of sense to me and his teachings are very practical quietmind1: ok, now the preliminary prayer technique. Give me a short prayer you know... vmh100: no, what do u mean? quietmind1: go back to the point where i say it is possible to block wandering mind//// vmh100: prayer? I don't know any ;( quietmind1: ok, i will give you one to use, ok? vmh100: how is that? quietmind1: "may all living things be well and happy, may they be free from suffering, may they be strong self confident and peaceful" quietmind1: ok, here's how you use it.... ready? vmh100: yes...but I don't look at it as a prayer. quietmind1: yes, your wish is metta given to all living things... quietmind1: here's it's use in meditation. Ready? vmh100: yes quietmind1: at the start of the sit you do a gasho with your hands and repeat it silently. Every time you completely go off track you do gasho and repeat it silently. This clears your mind and you return to the focus subject. i,e, breathe quietmind1: did you understand the counting helper and the prayer helper? vmh100: ok i will try that in the future vmh100: thank you vmh100: can u explain the counting helper? quietmind1: enough for today. got to cut the grass. Seeya monday or whenever and e-mail me if you have any earth shaking questions. ok? vmh100: thank you vmh100: see you vmh100: :) vmh100: have a nice day quietmind vmh100: cut the grass in mindfullness :) quietmind1: ok, this is actually based on the idea thatif we habituate a repetitve pattern in the mind it will not think about anything else. we will work on this on monday or so...seeya and sometimes people like vmh100 want some text instructions so i send them: Satipathana Meditation An Introduction to Meditating An introduction to Satipathana Meditation Satipathana Meditation is also known as Insight Meditation, and the aim is to gain a better awareness of one's nature, whether physical, mental, or spiritual. One way to be more aware is by observing our perceptions; becoming aware of how we perceive with our senses. Every time one sees, hears, smells, tastes, touches, or thinks, one should make a note of the fact, becoming aware of it happening, and observing one's reactions to that sense. However, it is difficult at first to make a note of every one, and so it is probably best to begin with noting those happening which are easily observed. Set aside about 20 minutes to practice meditating. To begin, find a quiet place to sit down, either cross-legged on the floor, or in a chair with a straight back. (If this is uncomfortable, you can also practice by lying on the floor.) Breathe through your nose, and start by observing your breathing, being aware of the touch of air at your nostrils or lip when you breathe in and breathe out. Try not to verbalize to yourself, "i am breathing in, now i am breathing out." Instead, try to stay with just the sensation. Feel it with your senses and hear the sound of your breathing,just the tactile sensation. Don't try to control your breathing, Neither slow it down, nor make it faster. Breathe steadily as usual and note the inhalation at the nosetip or upper lip as they occur. Note it mentally, not verbally, and don't try to judge it by thinking, "i am breathing too quickly," or "i am breathing too slowly."Try to be aware as each breath happens. Everyone who begins meditating will have a wandering mind. That is perfectly normal. Don't worry about it, but try to become aware of it. Just think, "My mind is wandering now." You shouldn't have to force your mind to stop wandering, but instead, "lead" it back to focusing on your breathing. After you catch yourself and note it a few times, it becomes easier to persuade your mind to refocus on your breathing. If your mind continues to wander, you can take note of what it is imagining. If you imagine you are talking with someone, note "talking" to yourself. Whatever activity your mind starts to imagine, note it to yourself, but without getting angry or frustrated that it is wandering. Also note if you are feeling an emotion, such as happy, sad, excited or bored. After you have been sitting (or lying) for awhile, you might notice that you are getting stiff, or sore, or feeling warm or cold. Try to take note of those feelings, instead of just reacting to them by moving or stretching. Note them, and gently move your focus back to your breathing. After about ten or 15 minutes, you should slowly open your eyes and gradually get up. Don't worry if you didn't have any great "insights" into the nature of being in your first sessions. Just try to be more aware of your senses and emotions and their impact on you. Try to practice meditation two or three times per day if possible. It is best to practice when you are not tired mentally, so meditating early in the morning is better than late at night. However, if for some reason you can't fall asleep at night, you can try the above exercise to help calm your mind and prepare you for sleep. After you have practiced the above techniques for a few days, try to practice being aware of your senses and emotions when you are in your daily routine. If you are on the bus, close your eyes and note how you are feeling, what you are hearing, how the bus is moving up and down or side to side. When you are working, note the sounds of the various items in the office, the background noise of the air conditioner, the shuffle of your coworkers feet across the carpet, the way you hold your hands and arms when you work. From here, i would highly recommend that you pick up a book on meditation and continue practicing. A good one is the "Meditation for Dummies" book (published by the people who make all those computer books "for Dummies.") And i hope you will come back and visit this dummy often...:-) now the way i was taught does not label sensation... even to hot, cold, rough ect. and because i want to be absolutely precise and in line with the dhamma and because i was taught to switch focus to the nimita and when it habituates and stabilizes use it as a microscope, i wondered what you thought....thanks, henry 16028 From: Jim Anderson Date: Tue Oct 1, 2002 9:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] satipa.t.thaana, word derivation. Dear Nina, > Dear Jim, I am glad you mention how many versions you are using. I am > impressed by your thoroughness, as always. You do not walk over one night's > ice, as we say in Dutch. Meanwhile I looked into the P.T.S. dictionnary: > upa.t.thitaa sati: presence of mind. > pa.t.thaana: intent contemplation and mindfulness, application of > mindfulness. setting forth, setting up. > Also mentioned here: the four Applications of Mindfulness. > pa.t.thahati: to put down, to provide. > I also looked at kamma.t.thaana: occupation, meditation subject. > I looked up the note in DII, p. 324. It has been said that one should be > mindful in order to understand these terms. Thank-you for taking the time to look up these words and for pointing out the interesting note in the introduction to Rhys Davids' DN 22 translation. > As to the Way the Buddha and disciples went, the third meaning: this is in > the beginning of the sutta itself: the one way leading to the end of dukkha. > We deduct this meaning from the texts. I think it is difficult to find the > three meanings by word derivation alone. The commentarial section on the three meanings takes in the word derivation but I agree that we can't go on that alone but it's a good start. The MN subcommentary goes into more detail and there are some helpful remarks on the prefixes in the anutika to Vbh-a. You can see the 'upa.t.thaana' in the Sanskrit equivalent: 'sm.rtyupasthaana' as found in Buddhist Sanskrit texts. It is possible that the 'u' is elided in the Pali 'satipa.t.thaana'. Another thing I thought of is that sati+pa.t.thaana would normally be written as satippa.t.thaana (at least in a Burmese ed.) with the doubling of the 'p' in the prefix 'pa' but I've yet to see it written that way in any of the texts. > How can Ven. S translate it as the four frames of reference? I think the translation here of the phrase is by Ven. Thanissaro, not by Ven. Soma who translates it as the four arousings of mindfulness. I don't at all agree with Ven. Thanissaro's rendering (reference for sati??). I find Thanissaro's renderings of some words and phrases too way out and distracting for me. I don't at all care for his Unbinding for nibbaana. I prefer the more conservative translations such as those of ~Naa.namoli and B. Bodhi. It may take awhile before I make much headway into the study of the three satipatthaanas as I've only just started to carefully check through all those many versions. At the same time I often get sidetracked by various dsg topics coming up in the discussions on Soma's The Way that are of interest to me. Most recently my attention turned to the meaning and derivation of 'apilaapana' (often translated as non-floating) which is a problem word as the derivation is unclear and I've seen three possibilities so far but I have put this aside for now as I could easily spend days just studying this one word. I think there must be enough material in the Satipatthana Sutta and its commentaries to keep one occupied for years and years. My responses to yours and Sarah's responses on the objects of mindfulness issue will have to wait for a long time. I just don't know enough at this time to respond. Would it be fair to say that the four domains or fields (gocaras) of satipatthana are kaaya, vedanaa, citta, and dhammas? Best wishes, Jim 16029 From: Date: Tue Oct 1, 2002 4:38pm Subject: Way 6, Intro cont "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html Introduction continued This Middle Way of Mindfulness is clearly not based on revelation, dogmas, nor vacuous beliefs like those in a Supreme Creator God and an Eternal Soul, irrational in the extreme. What is irrational is not the Teaching of the Buddha though it be found in Buddhist Scriptures. On the contrary, "Whatever is well said is the Word of the Buddha," even when it is not the Master's own utterance, because the Blessed One acknowledges Truth wherever and by whomsoever spoken. To raise up the person to a keen sense of awareness in regard to an object and to bring into activity, to call forth, and stir up the controlling faculty, the power, the enlightenment factor and the way factor of mindfulness is the Arousing of Mindfulness designed. Every Arousing of Mindfulness in regard to body feeling, consciousness or a mental object can be considered as a beginning of the road to insight. And so these "arousings" are, in a sense, "starting-points". Further with the Arousing of Mindfulness one wakes up heedfulness, intentness and carefulness, and is in a state of mental preparedness in regard to any work in hand. These Arousings of Mindfulness are many as regards objects but are one in the sense of taking place in a single way of quietude charged with insight that leads to Nibbana. All the four different objects of mindfulness: body, feeling, consciousness and mental objects, have to be understood before one reaches sanctitude. According to character, temperament and cognizing slant, one can make however only one of these the preliminary object of contemplation. It is often the case that owing to a lack of proper understanding of oneself one has to try all objects before one gets to know what suits one best for the preliminary work. The choice is made more difficult by the fact that most of us have no clear-cut natures and are a mixture of a little of every possible human characteristic. In these circumstances there is no alternative to the method of trial and error. But the earnest ones will find their way with persistence and sustained effort. By character there are two types determined by the excess of sensuous qualities of craving, or of the asensuous qualities of abstract beliefs that make up their personality. The craving type is generally extrovert; the other is generally introvert. According to temperament there are those whose mental functioning is slow, those who are languid mentally and those who are mentally keen, the nervous type. But here it must be understood that the terms languid and nervous have no necessary connection with calm and excitement. The nervous often keep cool when the languid fluster. The nervous type is sensitive, but strong and vigorous and keen. The nervous think forcefully and clearly. The languid are sluggish, inert, and weak, unclear, discursive, and often mixed-up in thought. Cognizing slant is either intuitive or intellective. According to character and temperament the body-object is recommended for the languid extravert and the feeling-object for the nervous extrovert. For the languid introvert the consciousness-object is recommended, and for the nervous introvert, mental objects. According to cognizing slant and temperament the body-object is pointed out for the mentally slow who belong to the intuitive kind which makes concentration its vehicle for progress, and for the mentally keen of this kind the feeling-object. For the mentally slow who belong to the intellective kind which makes insight its vehicle the consciousness-object is recommended, and to the mentally keen of this kind the mental object. Further, contemplation on the body destroys the delusion of beauty; that on feeling destroys the delusion of pleasure; contemplation on consciousness dispels the delusion of permanence; and that on mental objects, the delusion of the soul. The person who wishes to practice meditation according to the instruction of the Buddha on the Arousing of Mindfulness should first read the discourse, with the commentary on the synopsis, and get a fair idea of the trend of the teaching. Today, there are still people as of old who learn the discourse by heart as a preparation to practice. Such memorizing is helpful to certain types. But it is not essential. What is essential is to think long and deep on the instruction, until one gets the hang of its application to daily life. Only by repeated reflection on all the implications of it, can the discourse be made an effective instrument of mental culture. The core of the instruction is in the sections dealing with the modes of deportment and clear comprehension. These are intended for all types of aspirants. The commentary on these sections is very important and should be carefully studied. The whole practice of mindfulness depends on the correct grasp of the exercises included in the two parts referred to here. One should then look through the rest of the exercises in the discourse with the help of the commentary to find a preliminary object of concentration or subject of meditation that accords with one's character, temperament and cognizing slant mentioned earlier. If, for instance, one is an extrovert mentally languid or a person whose cognizing slant is intuitive and is temperamentally slow of mind, the contemplation on breathing could well suit that one as a preliminary object. If one finds the explanation given in the commentary to the discourse on mindfulness on any preliminary object one chooses insufficient, one should read the exposition of it in the Path of Purification [Visuddhi Magga] of our commentator. One may if a teacher of Buddhist meditation can be found, also consult him and ask for elucidation of any difficult points connected with meditative practice. Necessary too to be read by all are the portions of the commentary on the contemplation of feeling and consciousness, and those on the hindrances, the sense-bases and the factors of Enlightenment (in the contemplation of Mental Objects) which give information on the obstacles and aids to concentration on the preliminary object. 16030 From: Date: Tue Oct 1, 2002 1:37pm Subject: logical Hello all, Picking up a somewhat dated thread I found an interesting section in "Early Madhyamika in India and China," by Richard Robinson. (I'm looking for something intelligible to read on the subject, if there is any such, and just thumbed through this in the library.) It contains a very good account of the tetralemma which is much what was proposed earlier. This is an account of the logic in itself. (In classical logic, recall: A. all x is a E. no x is a I. some x is a O some x is not-a) 1. All x is a. (Simply A.) 2. No x is a. (Simply E.) 3. Some x is a, some x is not-a. (This is the conjunction of I and O; a very plausible reading of what is otherwise a straightforward contradiction.) 4. No x is a and no x is not-a. (So the fourth is seen as the conjunction of the contradictions of the conjuncts of #3: no x is a => some x is a, and no x is not-a => some x is not-a.) Now since no x is not-a = all x is a, the fourth is the conjunction of A and E. This seems to me to be sensible, though a somewhat inferior system to Aristotle's. Since it maps entirely onto the classical syllogistic logic there is no question of third truth values or new types of logic. I, personally, find this comforting. metta, stephen 16031 From: Date: Tue Oct 1, 2002 1:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] illogical? - Nina in particular Hello Nina, all An alternative point of view, on most everything >Dear Stephen, >We should look at the whole context of the Brahmajala sutta and study such >ways of reasoning people had at that time (and even now). Yes, I think the historical context is very important, and agree that the reasoning then is, necessarily, much as now. (So, e.g., anatta is better seen as not-atta than not-self; what was being denied is clearer that way.) >Ven. Bodhi has a good intro, it is on line. Now, under Doctrines of Endless Equivocation, amaraavikkhepavaada, or eelwriggling, under the fourth case, D: Does >the Tathagata exist after death, not exist, both exist and not exist, neither >exist nor not exist.. >who are endless equivocators resort to evasive statements and endless >equivocation...> To my embarrassment, I can't find this intro. The point of the sutta seems clear, though why the Buddha didn't answer concerning the Tathagata after death is not, actually, entirely clear to me. It's not a view, one supposes, in his case; he knows. Would it not be an incentive, say to Malunkhyaputta (and me) to simply say such and such is the case? It doesn't seem beside the point; but then I want answers to all those questions he asked myself ;-) >In the Cula Malunkyasutta, the Buddha does not answer such questions, it >is endless equivocation. There is birth, aging, dying... He points to the >goal. We should not forget the essence of his teaching: he taught the four >noble Truths. Oh, all right. And how can we learn what dukkha is? It is the arising and >falling away of nama and rupa, each moment. No, not really. It's the *attachment* to the rising a falling. Not the khandha but the upadanakkhandas. >How can this be realized? By >first knowing precisely what nama is, what rupa is: a reality to be >experienced one at a time through one of the six doors, at this very moment. No, even if one could experience this, and even if this distinction is real, it wouldn't make any real difference or provide insight. What's needed is insight into one's clinging (through vipassana, one supposes); there's nothing wrong with namarupa in itself. Such knowledge (of sense-data), if any, would miss the picture. >Kom and Larry's dialogue is most important and essential, as Sarah said. >What is a concept, what is a reality. A concept is that which makes known, >thus, a name, or the idea that is made known. Yes, exactly: that which makes known. Without a concept nothing is known; all seeing is seeing-as. All perception is theory laden. Everything is 'merely' conceptualized. (Now if you're going to tell me that nama-pannatti is that which makes known and I'm misusing the definition..., but I'm doing so on purpose.) >We should not confuse >concepts with thinking. Thinking itself is real and it can think of what >is real or what is not real but what is a concept. This is an odd use of the word "thinking." I think in words all the time. >I hope this clarifies, Well, you gave it a good shot. What can one do about those obdurate types? >best wishes from Nina. >P.S. I do not like the taste of chocolate. WHAT!? Now in this case you're clearly, outrageously WRONG. Chocolate is utterly delicious! Before I get too carried away objecting ;-) metta, stephen 16032 From: robmoult Date: Tue Oct 1, 2002 6:32pm Subject: Re: logical Hi Stephen, Here are some random (perhaps related) thoughts. Consider the statement "The cup is on the table" as "X". "NOT X" will be "The cup is not on the table". The union of "X" and "NOT X" is the sample space, in other words, "The cup is either on the table or it is not on the table". The intersection of "X" and "NOT X" is the null set, in other words, "The cup cannot be both on the table and not on the table" Now the results of this symbolic logic are only true for *ONE INSTANT IN TIME*. This morning, my coffee cup has been both on the table and off the table (though never both at the same time). How can we use a tool (logic) that is so limited (only valid at one time) to explore issues that are time-independent such as ethics? I have been pondering over this question for almost thirty years... this led me to abandon the study of Decartes, Kant and other western philosophers (they were heavily into "logic") and look for another perspective. Eventually that led me to Buddhism (I have to watch myself and make sure that I keep generally to the topic of Buddhism or risk incurring the wrath of the moderators :-) ). I have the feeling that Buddhism focuses less on logic (Stcherbatsky notwithstanding) than on direct experience (Howard's beloved phenomenology). What is your opinion on this? I also want to revert to the original reason that I rasied this issue. I am (still) preparing a class showing how ancient Buddhism is still relevant (perhaps even more relevant) in these days of modern science. Traditional science says that existence is a "yes" or "no" thing; a duality. Modern science (quantum theory) says existence is a "probability wave" thing and rejects both the "yes" and the "no" extremes. I want to show that the Suttas are not in conflict with modern science. In an earlier message, you quoted a Sutta as mentioning the Buddha rejected both extremes of "existence" and "non- existence" (and that you found that Sutta to be confusing). Which Sutta was that? Thanks, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., oreznoone@a... wrote: > Hello all, > > Picking up a somewhat dated thread I found an interesting section in "Early > Madhyamika in India and China," by Richard Robinson. (I'm looking for > something intelligible to read on the subject, if there is any such, and just > thumbed through this in the library.) It contains a very good account of the > tetralemma which is much what was proposed earlier. This is an account of the > logic in itself. > > (In classical logic, recall: > A. all x is a > E. no x is a > I. some x is a > O some x is not-a) > > 1. All x is a. (Simply A.) > 2. No x is a. (Simply E.) > 3. Some x is a, some x is not-a. (This is the conjunction of I and O; a very > plausible reading of what is otherwise a straightforward contradiction.) > 4. No x is a and no x is not-a. (So the fourth is seen as the conjunction of > the contradictions of the conjuncts of #3: no x is a => some x is a, and no x > is not-a => some x is not-a.) > Now since no x is not-a = all x is a, the fourth is the conjunction of A and > E. > > This seems to me to be sensible, though a somewhat inferior system to > Aristotle's. Since it maps entirely onto the classical syllogistic logic > there is no question of third truth values or new types of logic. I, > personally, find this comforting. > metta, stephen 16033 From: Date: Tue Oct 1, 2002 9:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: logical Hi Stephen and Rob, I don't have the slightest idea what you guys are talking about but the base of neither perception nor non-perception is an example of the fourth "lemma." Larry 16034 From: Date: Tue Oct 1, 2002 7:25pm Subject: Re: logical ...just a quick afterthought, The tetralemma was used by the Buddha, though I found the best account in a book concerning Madhyamika, which also used this method. It came up originally in a discussion of the Culamalunkya Sutta (#63 in the MN) in regard to its application to the state of a Tathagata after death. I think that the use of this logical system is interesting in itself, and could possibly shed some light on its use in the Suttas. Here's an interesting reference: "He [Nagarjuna] deployed a tetralemmic logic already adopted by Buddha in the early Pali texts (such as in the Brahmajala-sutta, Digha-Nikaya I). In the Pali tradition, the use of the Tetralemma is initially attributed to Sañjaya, a skeptical teacher whose students challenged Buddha early in Buddha's teaching career. Two of Sañjaya's students, Upatissa and Kolita, were won over, and went on to become two of Buddha's most important disciples, better known in the Buddhist tradition by the names Sariputta and Moggallana. It is possible that it was they who introduced the tetralemmic method to Buddhism." (http://www.human.toyogakuen-u.ac.jp/~acmuller/yogacara/thinkers/nagarjuna-bio -uni.htm) Sorry for any confusion that a Mahayana logical system was being discussed, though it became that, eventually, as well. If anyone thinks that the tetralemma changed, or had a different use in the Suttas, I'd be quite interested in hearing how. metta, stephen 16035 From: Sarah Date: Wed Oct 2, 2002 1:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: logical Hi Stephen, I sympathised very easily with Larry’s comment about your first post;-) many thanks for the clarification and touching base with the sutta references;-)) Logical? Illogical? --- oreznoone@a... wrote: > . > the Pali tradition, the use of the Tetralemma is initially attributed to > > Sañjaya, a skeptical teacher whose students challenged Buddha early in > Buddha's teaching career. > Sorry for any confusion that a Mahayana logical system was being > discussed, > though it became that, eventually, as well. If anyone thinks that the > tetralemma changed, or had a different use in the Suttas, I'd be quite > interested in hearing how. ======================= As Nina mentioned before, in the suttas it falls under the Doctrines of Endless Equivocation (amaaavikkhepavaada) as discussed in the Brahmajala Sutta. “It does not die, thus it is endless (amaraa, lit. ‘immortal’). What is this? the view and speech of this theorist, which go on hedging without limits. ‘Equivocation’ (vikkhepa): tossing back and forth in diverse ways (vividha khepa). ‘Endless equivocation’: equivocation through endless views and speech.” ***** In the commentaries, we read about a number of queries regarding these and other comments (p165f, B.Bodhi transl). This is one of them which I’m quoting as it mentions Sanjaya: “Query: Isn’t it true that insofar as he takes a stand on the side of equivocation, he makes a positive affirmation of the equivocal position? Reply: No, because he is utterly deluded about that as well, and because the doctrine of equivocation occurs only by way of rejection. For example, when Sanjaya Belatthaputta was asked by King Ajatasattu about an immediately visible fruit of recluseship, he equivocated by repudiating the triad of views on the world beyond, etc.” ***** As I mentioned in an earlier post, we read in this sutta that all wrong views are contained within the net of the 62 views elaborated: “Whatever recluses or brahmins, bhikkhus, are speculators about the past, or speculators about the future, or speculators about the past and the future together, hold settled views about the past and the future, and assert various conceptual theorems referring to the past and the future, all of them do so on these sixty-two grounds, or on a certain one of them. Outside of these there is none.” From the subcommentary we read further: “Therefore, those doctrines which are found in the Samannaphala Sutta (D.2) and in various other suttas, such as the doctrines of the moral ineficacy of action (akiriyavaada), or moral acausality (ahetukavaada), of nihilism (natthikavaada) etc, as well as the speculative views about God (issara), the Lord of Creation (pajaapati), the Primordial Spirit (purisa), time (kaala), nature (sabhaava), fate (niyati), chance (yadicchaa), etc found outside the suttas - all of these should be included and comprised in these three groups.” Referring to this paragraph a little later: “By the first ‘etc’ (after nihilism above), the doctrines of the Niganthas (the Jains) and others are included. Although the doctrine of Nataputta (Mahavira) has come down in the texts by way of the ‘fourfold restraint’ (caatuyaamasa.mvara), nevertheless, because of the evasiveness involved in its method of the sevenfold predicable, it is included in the doctrine of endless equivocation, just as Sanjaya’s doctrine is.” ***** Stephen, if you don’t already have a copy, please order the Brahmajala Sutta and commentaries from BPS. There is a lot more detail than I can type out here. I think you would also find the Kathavatthu (Points of Controversy transl by Aung & Rhys Davids)) and its commentary (The Debates commentary transl by Bimala Law) from PTS very interesting and readable in spite of being abhidhamma texts;-) Hope this helps a little. Sarah === 16036 From: Sarah Date: Wed Oct 2, 2002 1:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] not new but here again. Hi Derick, --- wink_1000 wrote: > Hello all. > > I used to be here on the list, and then I went away and now I am back > again. This time I managed to join the group without first insulting > it on other e-mail lists. So I've made progress! :-) > > Anyway. I'm looking forward to your posts. .... Thanks for letting us know. Very glad to see you back too - hope this time you don't get 'blown away' by all the ‘hardcore’ dhamma;-) For those who are new of don’t remember you, I’ve retrieved your intro (hope you don’t mind): http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m325.html You also wrote the following post which I really liked - and the questions were very much to the point. Rob M will find the last paragraph of particular interest as he’s expressed just the same sentiments about the DSG homepage;-): http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m589.html I’d be glad to hear if you have the same questions and we’re all pretty used to ‘direct’ or ‘ouspoken’. Best wishes, Sarah p.s Nina just wrote a long series on anapanasati. Much of it is in (or will soon be in) the Useful Posts and you may wish to look at it. There will also be plenty more discussion from all sides when we get to the section on breath in the Satipatthana Sutta discussions. ============================================= 16037 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Oct 2, 2002 3:14am Subject: When a being has laid down this body Dear Group, "The last citta of th previous life is succeeded by the first citta of this life." ADL Ch. 10 'The first citta in life' I've been reading in the Samyutta Nikaya p. 1393 Salayatanavagga 'The Debating Hall' with Vacchagotta talking to the Blessed One about Rebirth. "Master Gotama, when a flame is flung by the wind and goes some distance, what does Master Gotama declare to be its fuel on that occasion?" "When, Vaccha, a flame is flung by the wind and goes some distance, I declare that it is fuelled by the wind. For on that occasion the wind is its fuel." "And, Master Gotama, when a being has laid down this body but has not yet been reborn in another body, what does Master Gotama declare to be its fuel on that occasion?" "WHEN, VACCHA, A BEING HAS LAID DOWN THIS BODY BUT HAS NOT YET BEEN REBORN IN ANOTHER BODY, I declare that it is fuelled by craving. For on that occasion craving is its fuel." What could this mean? Isn't rebirth instantaneous? Is there somewhere in between? Is this the same as when some talk about 'Bardo'. Doesn't it seem that the Buddha says there is a period in between death and rebirth? metta, Christine 16038 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Oct 2, 2002 4:00am Subject: Re: When a being has laid down this body Dear Group, And a friend just sent me this quote: "Majjhima Nikaya 9 'Sammaditthi Sutta' The Discourse on Right View "There are these four kinds of nutriment for the maintenance of beings that already have come to be and FOR THE SUPPORT OF THOSE SEEKING A NEW EXISTENCE." It sounds like they must be hanging about 'somewhere' ... http://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/mn009.htm metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, > > "The last citta of th previous life is succeeded by the first citta > of this life." ADL Ch. 10 'The first citta in life' > > I've been reading in the Samyutta Nikaya p. 1393 Salayatanavagga 'The > Debating Hall' with Vacchagotta talking to the Blessed One about > Rebirth. > "Master Gotama, when a flame is flung by the wind and goes some > distance, what does Master Gotama declare to be its fuel on that > occasion?" > "When, Vaccha, a flame is flung by the wind and goes some distance, I > declare that it is fuelled by the wind. For on that occasion the > wind > is its fuel." > "And, Master Gotama, when a being has laid down this body but has not > yet been reborn in another body, what does Master Gotama declare to > be its fuel on that occasion?" > "WHEN, VACCHA, A BEING HAS LAID DOWN THIS BODY BUT HAS NOT YET BEEN > REBORN IN ANOTHER BODY, I declare that it is fuelled by craving. For > on that occasion craving is its fuel." > > What could this mean? Isn't rebirth instantaneous? Is there somewhere > in between? Is this the same as when some talk about 'Bardo'. > Doesn't it seem that the Buddha says there is a period in between > death and rebirth? > > metta, > Christine 16039 From: Date: Wed Oct 2, 2002 3:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] When a being has laid down this body Hi, Christine - In a message dated 10/2/02 6:15:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > > Dear Group, > > "The last citta of th previous life is succeeded by the first citta > of this life." ADL Ch. 10 'The first citta in life' > > I've been reading in the Samyutta Nikaya p. 1393 Salayatanavagga 'The > Debating Hall' with Vacchagotta talking to the Blessed One about > Rebirth. > "Master Gotama, when a flame is flung by the wind and goes some > distance, what does Master Gotama declare to be its fuel on that > occasion?" > "When, Vaccha, a flame is flung by the wind and goes some distance, I > declare that it is fuelled by the wind. For on that occasion the > wind > is its fuel." > "And, Master Gotama, when a being has laid down this body but has not > yet been reborn in another body, what does Master Gotama declare to > be its fuel on that occasion?" > "WHEN, VACCHA, A BEING HAS LAID DOWN THIS BODY BUT HAS NOT YET BEEN > REBORN IN ANOTHER BODY, I declare that it is fuelled by craving. For > on that occasion craving is its fuel." > > What could this mean? Isn't rebirth instantaneous? Is there somewhere > in between? Is this the same as when some talk about 'Bardo'. > Doesn't it seem that the Buddha says there is a period in between > death and rebirth? > > metta, > Christine > ============================= This is an excellent observation you make. Peter Harvey also references this in his book The Selfless Mind to support the claim that the original Buddhadhamma as expressed in the Sutta Pitaka, contrary to Theravada, does countenance intermediate states (Tibetan 'bardo') between realms of existence/experience. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16040 From: Jim Anderson Date: Wed Oct 2, 2002 8:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] When a being has laid down this body Dear Christine, Regarding your questions on the following: > "And, Master Gotama, when a being has laid down this body but has not > yet been reborn in another body, what does Master Gotama declare to > be its fuel on that occasion?" > "WHEN, VACCHA, A BEING HAS LAID DOWN THIS BODY BUT HAS NOT YET BEEN > REBORN IN ANOTHER BODY, I declare that it is fuelled by craving. For > on that occasion craving is its fuel." I think the problem lies in the translation. The Pali for "A BEING HAS LAID DOWN THIS BODY" is: ima~nca kaaya.m nikkhipati satto . . . -- S IV 400 'nikkhapati' is a verb in the present tense: lays down, is laying down (this body). Note that B. Bodhi (the translator?) has translated it in the past tense: has laid down. The commentary (Spk III 114) explains "HAS NOT (YET) BEEN REBORN" (anuppanno) in this way: "has not arisen" -- has not arisen owing to the (yet) non-arisen state of the birth-consciousness (pa.tisandhicittassa) at the death-moment (cutikkha.ne). Woodward translates the line in question as: "At the time, Vaccha, when a being lays aside this body and rises up again in another body . . ." -- GS iv 281 Here there is a problem with "and rises up again in another body" where 'rises up again' is the opposite of 'has not yet been reborn' in Bodhi's translation. Regarding the following MN 9 (M i 48) passage from your next post: "There are these four kinds of nutriment for the maintenance of beings that already have come to be and FOR THE SUPPORT OF THOSE SEEKING A NEW EXISTENCE." "OF THOSE SEEKING A NEW EXISTENCE" (Pali: sambhavesino pl.). The commentary (Ps i 207) gives a detailed explanation. In the case of the egg-born and the womb-born they refer to beings still inside the egg or the womb before hatching out or parturition. An explanation is also given for the moisture-born and the spontaneously-arisen (with the first citta of the new existence but not so with the next citta and afterwards). Best wishes, Jim 16041 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 2, 2002 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] satipa.t.thaana, word derivation. Dear Jim, Thank you for the further info. I meant Ven. Thanissaro, difficult to follow him. op 01-10-2002 18:11 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@y...: > My responses to yours and Sarah's responses on the objects of > mindfulness issue will have to wait for a long time. I Would it be fair to say that the four > domains or fields (gocaras) of satipatthana are kaaya, vedanaa, citta, > and dhammas? N: Exactly. I am also thinking of the Sutta on the falcon and the warning that the monk should keep to his own range: the four satipatthanas. In the dict. PTS, gocara: pasture, range and also object, sense object. Like visaya: locality, realm, range, and also object. Best wishes, Nina. 16042 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 2, 2002 10:00am Subject: Intro by Ven. Soma Dear Sarah and all, Ven. Soma, as you say, has given us a great gift by his translation. But there are some points we are wondering about. We can notice that he stresses very much: virtue, and this first, and also tranquillizing concentration. It is understandable that he writes in this way because he is a monk. The monk's life is different from the laylife. The monk should live as an arahat. He should carefully observe the monk's sila and if he transgresses he should confess this and make amends. Also he leads a life where there is more opportunity for Samatha. When people read this Intro they may believe that satipatthana as like a meditation you have to do in quiet. But the Buddha also taught to laypeople. Everybody can apply his teachings in his own situation. Laypeople do not have to live like monks in order to develop satipatthana. Here are just a few thoughts, Nina. 16043 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Oct 2, 2002 1:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] When a being has laid down this body Dear Howard, Jim and All, Howard, thank you for your post. I would be very interested if you have the time to see if Prof. Harvey has anything of significance to say about 'something' that exists between births. Does he come to any conclusions himself, as to the likelihood or otherwise of a 'something' waiting in a 'somewhere' for 'sometime' after death and before rebirth? ( I wonder about what 'form' it would take in between births in very different Planes; how long it would be there and what it would do while there). And I also wonder how this would integrate with what I have been taught about the absolute anatta-ness of everything. Thank you, Jim. I hope I don't have to annoy you in dribs and drabs of quotes from the Suttas about this. It is just that I don't remember noticing this topic before, and now it seems to be popping up everywhere. I sometimes wonder if I should try to learn Pali - would it take years to become proficient even at a beginner stage? The University of Qld does run Introductory and Advanced courses in Pali in its Studies in Religion School (presented only in the day time though -and the Hospital can't quite be brought to the understanding of the benefit in granting me study leave for Pali - even in a multi-cultural area.:). It is just frustrating to be in the power of the Translators and not even know if they themselves are in error. Whether there is a being, and a period between births, is a crucially important matter don't you think? Not just whether a Pali word means 'dark green' or 'aquamarine', or whether a comma or a semi-colon should have been used. I am very grateful that you (and others on the list) are able to throw some additional light on the Scriptures and translations. In another Sutta, the Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta 'The Greater Discourse on the Destruction of Craving' - the Blessed One is demolishing the 'pernicious view' of Sati (I always feel so sorry for Sati). There does seem here to be a mention of a being-in-waiting ... In the section (The Round of Existence: Conception to Maturity) the Buddha says "Bhikkhus, the conception of an embryo in a womb takes place through the union of three things. Here, there is union of the mother and father, but it not the mother's season, and THE BEING TO BE REBORN IS NOT PRESENT - in this case there is not conception of an embryo in a womb. Here, there is the union of the mother and father, and it is the mother's season, BUT THE BEING TO BE REBORN IS NOT PRESENT - in this case too there is no conception of an embryo in a womb. But when there is a union of the mother and father and it is the mother's season, AND THE BEING TO BE REBORN IS PRESENT, THROUGH THE UNION OF THESE THREE THINGS THE CONCEPTION OF AN EMBRYO IN A WOMB TAKES PLACE." metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Christine - > This is an excellent observation you make. Peter Harvey also > references this in his book The Selfless Mind to support the claim that the > original Buddhadhamma as expressed in the Sutta Pitaka, contrary to > Theravada, does countenance intermediate states (Tibetan 'bardo') between > realms of existence/experience. > > With metta, > Howard --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Jim Anderson" wrote: > Dear Christine, > > Regarding your questions on the following: > > > "And, Master Gotama, when a being has laid down this body but has > not > > yet been reborn in another body, what does Master Gotama declare to > > be its fuel on that occasion?" > > "WHEN, VACCHA, A BEING HAS LAID DOWN THIS BODY BUT HAS NOT YET > BEEN > > REBORN IN ANOTHER BODY, I declare that it is fuelled by craving. > For > > on that occasion craving is its fuel." <<>> 16044 From: robmoult Date: Wed Oct 2, 2002 2:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] When a being has laid down this body Hi Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Whether there is a being, and a period between births, is > a crucially important matter don't you think? I am going to play devil's advocate here and take an opposing view. "Instantaneous rebirth" or "non-Instantaneous rebirth" does not impact kamma, four noble truths, eightfold noble path, paticcasamuppada or any of the "core" teachings of the Buddha. Why make it an issue? Tissa was reborn as a flea for seven days because he was attached to his robe. Following that, he was again reborn as a deva in Tusita heaven. Unlike the deva planes (and higher), the four woeful planes and the human plane have indefinite lifespans. Why can't we be born in one of these planes for a short time and then be reborn into another plane due to our reserve (katatta) kamma? Thanks, Rob M :-) 16045 From: Date: Wed Oct 2, 2002 4:17pm Subject: Way 7, Intro cont "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html Introduction continued In concentration of any preliminary object, say the breath, if any feeling or thought that interferes with concentration arises, then one should contemplate on that interfering phenomenon in a manner that accords to the exposition on feeling, consciousness, the hindrances, or the sense-bases, in the commentary, until the interference disappears and then revert to the preliminary object. Similarly, when attending to the preliminary object, any over-activeness or slackness present should be overcome by the method taught in the exposition on the factors of Enlightenment in the commentary and then there will be steady work possible on the object of concentration. It is useful to bear in mind that either the favorable or the unfavorable qualities increase by pondering over them and decrease by the turning away of attention from them. In beginning to practice mindfulness, one has to become aware of one's actions, speech and thoughts, and drive these towards good as a cow-herd his charge to healthy pastures. It is helpful to get into the habit of preparing the mind before proceeding to act, and to pause a while before initiating new activities. By such practice one learns to act deliberately, consciously, and with circumspection, and not on the spur of the moment, and so does everything prepared to face all consequences, and with a proper sense of responsibility. Wholetime practice of mindfulness consists in the carrying out of each of the three following activities of contemplation at the proper time: attention to the preliminary object of concentration, reflection on the modes of deportment and clear comprehension. When one is not attending to the preliminary object for one good reason or another, one should be reflecting on the modes of deportment, or be doing clear comprehension. Wholetime practice of mindfulness can be carried out by all. There will however be differences to the degree of intensiveness of the practice according to the "busy-ness" of the individual. The more one is busy with external activities, the less time will be at his disposal for attending to the preliminary object, and also for steady reflection on deportment and for penetratively clear comprehension. One should therefore try to cut and also slow down as much as one can, rightly and reasonably, one's external activities. Who reflects on his movements and clearly comprehends states of activity and rest as taught in the commentary has his mind turned towards self-mastery. The preliminary object, however, is the basis of the practice, and is the resort of the aspirant, or the main object and ground of contemplation. The Way of Mindfulness is the objective way of viewing anything whatsoever. It reckons just what is present and stopping the garrulity of one's own mind, lets the objects speak for themselves and unfold their character. Also, by its patient pursuit of the meaning of things, its readiness to see every side of any thought or experience, and by its breadth and tolerance, it predisposes the mind to receive the impressions of truth, induces inner pliancy and the mood of spiritual receptivity, necessary for highest intuition. Since mindfulness is the only way for anyone who wishes inner happiness, men of old, irrespective of the school of thought to which they belonged, underlined the importance of the Buddha's teaching on this point. In his "Friendly Letter," Nagarjuna says: "The Happy One (Sugata) said that the only way to be walked on is mindfulness directed bodywards; therefore keep to it resolutely; for if mindfulness is lacking, all good Dhamma) decays." And Santideva in his Bodhicaryavatara says: "If the mind, the tusker maddened with passion, is bound completely with the rope of mindfulness, then all perils disappear and all blessings come into being." In the Theravada countries of South-East Asia, the Way of the Arousing of Mindfulness is well-known and much appreciated. Especially so is it in Burma today, where monk and layman go from time to time into solitude for training along this Way, under the guidance of some "meditation-master". In Burmese meditation monasteries each meditator is given a separate cell. He is not allowed to speak to any but the meditation master during the time of training. No books and no repetition of formulae are permitted. The business of the meditator is to keep mindfulness going during the whole of the waking state. Making his inhalations and exhalations the basic subject of meditation, he has to be mindful of his postures, completely aware of his behavior (going forwards etc.) and to attend to his feelings, thoughts and ideas as they arise, according to the instructions of the meditation master. Seldom does a stretch of hard training extend over a month. The aim of the meditation master is to lessen the conceptualizing proclivities of the pupil and lead him towards appreciating the "nature of the thing". This he does by encouraging bare or pure mindfulness, and letting transcience and the other characteristics of the mental and bodily objects become clear by dint of concentrated attention, because true understanding of reality must in the last resort be based on profound personal experience. Otherwise it cannot change the character of the meditator in that final and irrevocable way of Arahantship contemplated by this method. The meditation master does not load the pupil's mind with all the many particulars found in the commentary but selects what is just necessary for each pupil's progress and instructs accordingly. Continued practice of the arousings of mindfulness instills into the meditator the habit of systematic or proper attention (yoniso manasikara) regarding the details of a thing, and accustoms him to test all phenomena for their inherent characteristics of transience and so forth. Thus he gradually learns to turn away from the worldling's view of things and look at them by way of condition, cause, dependent origination, element etc., and becomes, in spirit, one with the Dhamma. The Discourse on the Arousing of Mindfulness is one among the discourses often repeated by Buddhists and its traditional importance is seen further by its use as the viaticum to support one passing away from this life to another. The use of it as a death-bed discourse points out that mindfulness besides being one of the foremost qualities needed for holy living, is also a quality that makes for holy dying. Truly, a first and last thing. Soma Thera 16046 From: Date: Wed Oct 2, 2002 4:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 7, Intro cont ST: "Nagarjuna says: "The Happy One (Sugata) said that the only way to be walked on is mindfulness directed bodywards; therefore keep to it resolutely; for if mindfulness is lacking, all good Dhamma) decays."" L: I think this should read: the only way [for the path] to be walked on... Larry 16047 From: Date: Wed Oct 2, 2002 4:50pm Subject: Way 8, sutta Dear group, The next section of the book is the sutta. Since it would be premature to discuss it why don't we say everyone read the entire sutta (maybe several times) and we will begin the commentary monday evening, my time? Also you may be interested in comparing translations if you have time. Larry http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html 16048 From: Date: Wed Oct 2, 2002 3:31pm Subject: Re: logical Hello Rob, >How can we use a tool (logic) that is so limited (only valid at one >time) to explore issues that are time-independent such as ethics? My first inclination is to say I disagree, perhaps with a reference to kamma: act/cetana now, result/vipaka later. All are actions are in time. But what do you mean? It's sometimes held that logical / mathematical statements are outside of time, just the opposite. (And the temporal status of logical truths creates problems: If it's true that you will brush your teeth tomorrow morning then isn't it determined? You have to, if it's true. There's something wrong here but it's not so easy to say what. I think it's related to what you're saying.) >I have the feeling that Buddhism focuses less on logic (Stcherbatsky >notwithstanding) than on direct experience (Howard's beloved >phenomenology). What is your opinion on this? Well, not phenomenology, but yes, direct experience. Still, there's a point in discussing logic, among other things. Philosophy texts often begin with a chapter on logic or critical thinking. What are the canons of reasoning, what kinds of evidence should be accepted. This seems to center almost entirely on the Kalama sutta these days but there's more to it. >In an earlier message, you quoted a Sutta as >mentioning the Buddha rejected both extremes of "existence" and "non- >existence" (and that you found that Sutta to be confusing). Which >Sutta was that? I almost have it in my head; is that helpful? It'll flash on me then I'll see if I can't find on online source. And a wonderful commentary so you won't be misled into some third reality beyond the real and unreal ;-) metta, stephen 16049 From: Jim Anderson Date: Wed Oct 2, 2002 7:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] When a being has laid down this body Dear Christine, > Thank you, Jim. I hope I don't have to annoy you in dribs and drabs > of quotes from the Suttas about this. It is just that I don't > remember noticing this topic before, and now it seems to be popping > up everywhere. I sometimes wonder if I should try to learn Pali - > would it take years to become proficient even at a beginner stage? Yes, I think so from my own experience but any amount of learning however small can be of help. I first came into contact with Buddhism in 1970 and became interested in the Pali language in 1973 but it wasn't until 1976 after I had bought a well-worn second hand copy of Warder's Introduction to Pali (which incidentally contains a line in Ven. H. Saddhatissa's own handwriting) that I then decided that it was time to begin and ever since -- learning and reading Pali continues to be of primary interest to me. And looking back now, I think it was one of the best decisions I ever made. No regrets here! > The University of Qld does run Introductory and Advanced courses in > Pali in its Studies in Religion School (presented only in the day > time though -and the Hospital can't quite be brought to the > understanding of the benefit in granting me study leave for Pali - > even in a multi-cultural area.:). I didn't learn Pali by taking courses at a university although I had seriously considered doing so. The only Pali teacher I studied (briefly) with was a Sinhalese student of Prof. Warder in 1980 who was doing his Ph.D. and most of the learning has been done on my own with the help of a growing collection of Pali books. The self-taught way has worked fine for me although it's probably a much slower way as one just goes at the pace desired and without the pressure of homework assignments. The important thing is to nurture the interest and keep it alive, the rest will follow. > It is just frustrating to be in > the power of the Translators and not even know if they themselves are > in error. This is where a knowledge of Pali comes in handy as you can check the translations with the Pali originals and look up stuff in the commentaries, most of which still remain untranslated into English. > Whether there is a being, and a period between births, is > a crucially important matter don't you think? Not just whether a > Pali word means 'dark green' or 'aquamarine', or whether a comma or a > semi-colon should have been used. I am very grateful that you (and > others on the list) are able to throw some additional light on the > Scriptures and translations. The Pali word for Bardo is 'antaraabhava' or the intermediate state of existence and there are many references to this term in the commentaries and seems to occur only in the Kathaavatthu text of the Tipitaka. There is an informative debate on this issue in Vagga VIII.2 where the Pubbaseliyas and the Sammitiyas maintain that there is an intermediate state of existence. The Theravadins refute this. You can read it in Points of Controversy, 212ff. which is a PTS translation of Kv. > In another Sutta, the Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta 'The Greater Discourse > on the Destruction of Craving' - the Blessed One is demolishing > the 'pernicious view' of Sati (I always feel so sorry for Sati). > There does seem here to be a mention of a being-in-waiting ... In > the section (The Round of Existence: Conception to Maturity) the > Buddha says "Bhikkhus, the conception of an embryo in a womb takes > place through the union of three things. Here, there is union of the > mother and father, but it not the mother's season, and THE BEING TO > BE REBORN IS NOT PRESENT - in this case there is not conception of an > embryo in a womb. Here, there is the union of the mother and father, > and it is the mother's season, BUT THE BEING TO BE REBORN IS NOT > PRESENT - in this case too there is no conception of an embryo in a > womb. But when there is a union of the mother and father and it is > the mother's season, AND THE BEING TO BE REBORN IS PRESENT, THROUGH > THE UNION OF THESE THREE THINGS THE CONCEPTION OF AN EMBRYO IN A > WOMB TAKES PLACE." "THE BEING TO BE REBORN" is 'gandhabba' in Pali. I'm not at all clear on this term as the commentary says that 'gantabba' is what is really meant. Gandhabba is also a term used for a lower class of deities sometimes referred to as celestial musicians (cupids?) who facilitate conception. There is a chapter in SN called Gandhabbasa.myutta. More research would be needed for me to say much more. Best wishes, Jim 16050 From: Date: Wed Oct 2, 2002 3:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] When a being has laid down this body Hi, Chris - In a message dated 10/2/02 4:45:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > > Dear Howard, Jim and All, > > Howard, thank you for your post. I would be very interested if you > have the time to see if Prof. Harvey has anything of significance to > say about 'something' that exists between births. Does he come to > any conclusions himself, as to the likelihood or otherwise of > a 'something' waiting in a 'somewhere' for 'sometime' after death and > before rebirth? ( I wonder about what 'form' it would take in between > births in very different Planes; how long it would be there and what > it would do while there). And I also wonder how this would > integrate with what I have been taught about the absolute anatta-ness > of everything. > =========================== Harvey's position is that original Buddhism did accept intermediate states between realms of experience. He didn't go into details, however, about how long such a state would last. I believe the Tibetans consider such states to be much like dream states. They typically last up to 49 days. I would assume that there is some sort of subtle embodiment involved - like the "mind-made" body the Buddha refers to occasionally or the astral body of the occultists. I don't see that this business has any bearing on anatta at all. Even right now, with our "solid" bodies and with our apparent "existence", there really is no "you" and no "I" as unitary, continuing things. Right now we are empty of essence, empty of self. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16051 From: robmoult Date: Wed Oct 2, 2002 8:19pm Subject: Re: logical Hi Stephen, --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., oreznoone@a... wrote: > >How can we use a tool (logic) that is so limited (only valid at one > >time) to explore issues that are time-independent such as ethics? > My first inclination is to say I disagree, perhaps with a reference to kamma: > act/cetana now, result/vipaka later. All are actions are in time. > But what do you mean? === I believe that time does not exist. It is a construct of the human mind. I believe that this is an area where Einstein and the Buddha are in accordance. However, I do not believe that the fact that time is not an ultimate reality (paramattha dhamma) denies causality. Some people, such as profesor Stanley Sobottka, use the non-reality of time to deny causality and thereby deny the existence of kamma (see his materials at http://faculty.virginia.edu/consciousness/ ). I do not agree with this position. Filita P. Bharucha takes a stab at this issue in his book, "Buddhist Theory of Causation and Einstein's Theory of Relativity" (lots of math, not light reading) and so does Venerable Nyanaponika Thera in his article "The Problem of Time" in the book "Abhidhamma Studies". My understanding (still evolving as I wade through this material) is that causality is a local phenomena, existing only within a specific frame of reference (i.e. one stream of kammic consciousness). This understanding allows me to reconcile both Einstein's theory of relativity (time is a concept) and kamma (causality). > It's sometimes held that logical / mathematical statements are outside of > time, just the opposite. > (And the temporal status of logical truths creates problems: If it's true > that you will brush your teeth tomorrow morning then isn't it determined? You > have to, if it's true. There's something wrong here but it's not so easy to > say what. I think it's related to what you're saying.) > === I also have some comments on this issue, but as they do not relate directly to Buddhism, I am not going to post them here. Feel free to email me if you want to have an off-line discussion. === > >I have the feeling that Buddhism focuses less on logic (Stcherbatsky > >notwithstanding) than on direct experience (Howard's beloved > >phenomenology). What is your opinion on this? > Well, not phenomenology, but yes, direct experience. Still, there's a point > in discussing logic, among other things. Philosophy texts often begin with a > chapter on logic or critical thinking. What are the canons of reasoning, what > kinds of evidence should be accepted. This seems to center almost entirely on > the Kalama sutta these days but there's more to it. === Here is a section of the Kalama Sutta giving the criterion for rejection of teachings: "Do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing; nor upon tradition; nor upon rumor; nor upon what is in a scripture; nor upon surmise; nor upon an axiom; nor upon specious reasoning; nor upon a bias towards a notion that has been pondered over; nor upon another's seeming ability; nor upon the consideration, 'The monk is our teacher.'" How do you interpret the rejection of "axioms" and "specious reasoning" (I have seen "specious reasoning" translated as "logic" as well)? === > > >In an earlier message, you quoted a Sutta as > >mentioning the Buddha rejected both extremes of "existence" and "non- > >existence" (and that you found that Sutta to be confusing). Which > >Sutta was that? > I almost have it in my head; is that helpful? It'll flash on me then I'll see > if I can't find on online source. And a wonderful commentary so you won't be > misled into some third reality beyond the real and unreal ;-) Looking forward to it :-) Thanks, Rob M :-) 16052 From: Date: Wed Oct 2, 2002 9:20pm Subject: catukotika Hi all, Here's a curiosity. I looked up logic in Vism. and found catukotika (quadruple logical relation). It refers to a way of analysing self according to four findings as expounded in MN 106 par. 8: 1. There is no self in these khandhas. 2. There is nothing that could be considered anyone's son, brother, friend etc. in these khandhas. 3. There is no self in those khandhas. 4. There is nothing that could be considered my parent, brother, sister, friend, etc. in those khandhas. "When he practices in this way and frequently abides thus, his mind acquires confidence in this base. Once there is full confidence, he either attains to the base of nothingness now or else he decides upon [perfecting] wisdom." Anenjasappaya Sutta This is my reading, not sure if it is correct. The language is a little peculiar. Larry 16053 From: Date: Wed Oct 2, 2002 5:48pm Subject: Re: logical Hello Rob, >How do you interpret the rejection of "axioms" and "specious >reasoning" (I have seen "specious reasoning" translated as "logic" >as well)? "Specious reasoning" sounds good (who wants to be specious?) but it's off the mark, I think; why even say that, it's too obvious. But how not to deny reason altogether (which is, of course, wider than "logic"). How about "mere reason?" Be reasonable, but that's not enough. Direct experience, as we spoke before. Consider MN.ii.170-171 where it's said that 5 things have two types of consequences. Thinking according to reason is one: Things that one has thought out carefully can turn out to be false, things one hasn't considered can turn out to be true. I think this is about remaining at the level of just reading and thinking and reasoning. All good (I want to think) but inadequate. I'll be interested in hearing how one can have causality without time; though, I think I'm going to agree with you, in some way that is just what Einstein held. But Einstein was a determinist and the Buddha was not; kamma won't work without time. Now we're broaching freewill, but leaving this troublesome word aside, the future as determined, despite what we do, was rejected. Difficult to get one's mind around. (I now have the sutta under question? but not the comments yet, so, in fairness: SN XII.15: Kaccayanagotta Sutta; it can possible stand without my interpretation ;-) metta, and good night, stephen 16054 From: robmoult Date: Wed Oct 2, 2002 9:53pm Subject: Re: catukotika Hi Larry, Are you planning on joining Stephen and I in the "logical philosophers" corner? :-) You are welcome, but the rules are that you have to reference Buddhism in at least every other paragraph. :-) I knew that you were holding back when yesterday you wrote, "I don't have the slightest idea what you guys are talking about..." :-) Thanks, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi all, > > Here's a curiosity. I looked up logic in Vism. and found catukotika > (quadruple logical relation). It refers to a way of analysing self > according to four findings as expounded in MN 106 par. 8: > > 1. There is no self in these khandhas. > > 2. There is nothing that could be considered anyone's son, brother, > friend etc. in these khandhas. > > 3. There is no self in those khandhas. > > 4. There is nothing that could be considered my parent, brother, sister, > friend, etc. in those khandhas. > > "When he practices in this way and frequently abides thus, his mind > acquires confidence in this base. Once there is full confidence, he > either attains to the base of nothingness now or else he decides upon > [perfecting] wisdom." Anenjasappaya Sutta > > This is my reading, not sure if it is correct. The language is a little > peculiar. > > Larry 16055 From: robmoult Date: Wed Oct 2, 2002 10:06pm Subject: Re: logical Hi Stephen, --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., oreznoone@a... wrote: > > Hello Rob, > >How do you interpret the rejection of "axioms" and "specious > >reasoning" (I have seen "specious reasoning" translated as "logic" > >as well)? > "Specious reasoning" sounds good (who wants to be specious?) but it's off the > mark, I think; why even say that, it's too obvious. But how not to deny > reason altogether (which is, of course, wider than "logic"). How about "mere > reason?" Be reasonable, but that's not enough. Direct experience, as we spoke > before. > Consider MN.ii.170-171 where it's said that 5 things have two types of > consequences. Thinking according to reason is one: Things that one has > thought out carefully can turn out to be false, things one hasn't considered > can turn out to be true. I think this is about remaining at the level of just > reading and thinking and reasoning. All good (I want to think) but > inadequate. ==== I am very happy with this explanation. It has resolved a 30-year-old question in my mind. Thank you! ==== > > I'll be interested in hearing how one can have causality without time; > though, I think I'm going to agree with you, in some way that is just what > Einstein held. But Einstein was a determinist and the Buddha was not; kamma > won't work without time. Now we're broaching freewill, but leaving this > troublesome word aside, the future as determined, despite what we do, was > rejected. Difficult to get one's mind around. === I believe that kamma can work without time. I am trying to figure the details out and how to express it clearly... give me some time (oops, there's that word again!) I have been wrestling with free-will for some time and recently made some progress (see my message 15951). === > (I now have the sutta under question? but not the comments yet, so, in > fairness: > SN > XII.15: Kaccayanagotta Sutta; it can possible stand without my > interpretation ;-) === My first pass at interpreting this Sutta is that neither "Existence" nor "Non-existence" are valid because they both imply a static state. The Sutta goes on to mention dependent origination to reinforce that everything is in flux. Thanks (and sleep well), Rob M :-) 16056 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Oct 2, 2002 11:27pm Subject: [dsg] Re: preparation for sati? Hi Rob M and Nina, Rob, I've been enjoying your conversation with Nina on this thread but I'm worried it may have come to an end. Please consider this a prompt to keep it going. Nina wrote: "Reflecting on the scriptures is certainly a helpful condition, but if we think, I should, there may be an element of wish, expectation or desire." I look forward to your comments on this. Assuming there is an element of wish, expectation or desire in your practice, do you consider it a particularly significant obstacle? Kind regards Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Nina van Gorkom wrote: > op 27-09-2002 23:02 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > > >> N: When mindful, it can be very natural, also seeing a glass, > > because you > >> know that it is a nama which thinks. 16057 From: robmoult Date: Thu Oct 3, 2002 0:11am Subject: [dsg] Re: preparation for sati? Hi Ken, One year ago, I would attend the Abhidhamma class each week, as I had for many years. I felt that my learning had reached a plateau. I wanted more. By volunteering to teach the beginners' class this year, I forced myself into a situation where I had to do research each week. Now, I feel that my understanding of the Dhamma is increasing rapidly. Part of the reason that I research as thoroughly as possible is that I don't want to look foolish in front of the class on Sunday morning. It is amazing what a bit of pride (mana) and fear (dosa) will do as a motivator. I knew that this was part of my character and it is part of the reason that I volunteered (i.e. I wanted to force myself to dig deeper into the Dhamma). As an interesting side effect, I also have to watch what I do more carefully as I now label myself "a Dhamma teacher". This is an example of leveraging akusala tendencies for kusala purposes. I know that I will have to pay the kammic price for my mana and dosa, but the kammic weight of learning and teaching the Dhamma will "outweigh" them. I am okay with akusala motivation for my class preparation. However, I view my meditation practice differently. I cannot deny that there is an element of wish, expectation and desire in my meditation practice. I feel that this is a barrier to progress. My "brain" tells me that my duty is just to sit and that the appropriate experiences will come to me when the conditions are right... it is useless to chase after them. While my "brain" is telling me this, my "heart" is still craving (some days more, some days less). In summary, akusala is not an obstacle to my teaching, but it is an obstacle to my meditation. I seriously want to improve my meditation practice. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Rob M and Nina, > > Rob, I've been enjoying your conversation with Nina on > this thread but I'm worried it may have come to an end. > Please consider this a prompt to keep it going. > > Nina wrote: "Reflecting on the scriptures is certainly a > helpful condition, but if we think, I should, there may > be an element of wish, expectation or desire." > > I look forward to your comments on this. Assuming there > is an element of wish, expectation or desire in your > practice, do you consider it a particularly significant > obstacle? > > Kind regards > Ken H > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > op 27-09-2002 23:02 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > > > > >> N: When mindful, it can be very natural, also seeing a glass, > > > because you > > >> know that it is a nama which thinks. 16058 From: Sarah Date: Thu Oct 3, 2002 0:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Memory and Definition of Sati Hi Rob M. As Larry commented, it was a very comprehensive and useful post. However, I know you don’t like life to be too easy, so I’ll just raise a couple of points (they may be questions) , particularly relating to sati and memory: --- robmoult wrote: > Here is the result of my reading the original texts: > > Sekha Sutta (The Disciple in Higher Learning) M53.16: "He has > mindfulness; he possesses the highest mindfulness and skill; he > recalls and recollects what was done long ago and spoken long ago." > > Bhikkhu Bodhi's commentary on this verse is as follows, "Here the > text explains sati, mindfulness, by reference to its original > meaning of memory. The relationship between the two senses of sati – > memory and attentiveness – may be formulated thus: keen > attentiveness to the present forms the basis for an accurate memory > of the past. MA takes the mention of sati here to imply all seven > factors of enlightenment, among which it is first." ***** I’ve checked the sutta too. Just a few comments (but not answers): 1. The reference describes those ‘in higher training’, i.e those who have attained to stages of enlightenment. 2. Also it refers to those who have attained all 4 jhanas. 3. The commentary tells us this quote refers to the bhojjhangas (enlightenment factors). 4. In the section on bhojangas in the Satipatthana Sutta and com. there is no reference to recollection of the past. I wonder if this refers to insight being coupled with jhanas? 5. In the Atthasalini (trns p.195) there is also, however, a reference to “not forgetting a thing done or spoken long ago..”, but this may be a function of sati in jhanas rather than satipatthana in which case, as we know (well, some of us;-)), paramattha dhamma must be the object. 6. The Visuddhimagga (XX1,111f) discusses differences in enlightenment factors, jhana factors and so on depending on whether jhana is used as a basis for insight and so on. More detail in XX11, 38 on enlightenment factors. This is an intricate topic and one Nina touched on a few times in the anapanasati series a few times. I’m out of my depth without further study and consideration. Nina or others may have further comments on the reference you gave in the sutta. As I’ve said, I cannot see the connection between satipatthana and recalling the past. I was also going to ask a bit more about the last quote from the intro in the PTS A-S, but I think I’ll let that rest;-) Sarah ===== 16059 From: Sarah Date: Thu Oct 3, 2002 1:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 4, Intro cont Hi Larry, Just a quick note back to a couple of your questions: 1) L: “Thanks for bringing out these points about sati as cetasika. Is sati the faculty that discriminates between kusala and akusala?” ***** S: Sati is mindful or not forgetful of its object. So if the object is a kusala state or citta, it is mindful of the wholesome quality. If it is sati as in satipatthana, it is also aware of the characteristic of akusala to when it appears. The discriminating or knowing would be the function of panna, however. Sati is aware, panna understands or knows. 2) L: “Some more questions. If (?) we can say sati is recognition, then when I recognize someone in the street is that sati? Is it satipatthana? If I mistakenly recognize Jack as Jim, is that sati? If I mistakenly recognize vedana as rupa is that sati? Is truth a cetasika?” ***** S: Memory or recognition or awareness referring to sati have no resemblance to these terms in conventional language. Sati only arises with kusala cittas - those concerned with sila, dana or bhavana - for a start. Rcognizing or mistaking someone in the street is thinking and sanna and many other states. Any of these cittas, cetasikas or rupas involved can be the object of satipatthana however. If vedana is confused for rupa, there is moha (ignorance), not sati. What we mean by truth is usually a combination of different cittas and mental states. Sarah ===== 16060 From: Sarah Date: Thu Oct 3, 2002 1:52am Subject: Re: Informal Thoughts on Sati and Sa~n~na Re: [dsg] Way 4, Intro cont Hi Howard (& Larry). I thought your informal reflections here were pretty good;-) --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Informally, based just on the usage I've come across in written > discussions of meditation, I've always thought of 'sati' as designating > the > function of remembering to stay with the present moment of experience - > of > not becoming forgetful and "getting lost" in thought, reverie, or > torpor. It > seems to me that it is not attention per se, nor, is it, in this usage, > general memory per se, but is a remembering or keeping in mind to > maintain > attention. So, as I think of it, 'sati' as used in the Dhamma doesn't > mean > memory, per se, but it has a clear memory aspect/flavor to it. .... I would just refine it a little further to suggest ‘remembering to stay with the present moment of experience’ refers to being aware/mindful of namas and rupas appearing through the 6 doorways. ..... >Likewise, > to > me 'sa~n~na', with its meaning of recognition or cognition or > perception, > also does not mean memory, per se, but certainly has a clear > aspect/flavor of > memory to it. To recognize or (even wordlessly) identify something > surely > requires a mental trace of some sort, though not necessarily a memory in > the > usual sense. (I suspect that the *common* term 'memory', apparently not > explicated in Abhidhamma, designates an amalgam of mental operations, > and, in > the common usage of the term, denotes a type of very large and complex > mental > process involving long trains of thought and multiple functions.) ..... I like the way you put this;-) Sarah ==== 16061 From: Sarah Date: Thu Oct 3, 2002 2:13am Subject: Back to Frank (was: Episode II: Vedana [Howard]) Hi Frank, Are you still there? You seemed to lose Dan, so let me pick up this one point as I think it’s important: --- Frank Kuan wrote: > Makes sense to me, but to add to the confusion, > there is the 5 type of feeling classification, which > lists physical feeling as 2 of the 5 types (pleasant > physical and painful physical). > Sticking my head in ice cold water is painful > sometimes (produces painful MENTAL feeling). Is it a > painful physical feeling? I don't think so. If I have > a bunch of mosquito bites, the very same cold water > feels (MENTALLY) pleasant. ..... Just to clarify, ALL feelings are namas (vedana khandha). Those referred to as ‘physical’ refer to feelings accompanying cittas experiencing their objects through the body-sense. It can be confusing, I know. So when you stick your head in ice cold water, there will be unpleasant bodily feeling (dukkha vedana) accompanying the citta of body sense consciousness (vipaka citta) which experiences the coldness (a rupa). This will usually be followed by unhappy mental feeling (another kind of vedana) accompanying cittas in the javana process. In your example with the mosquito bites, however, there may well be happy mental feeling accompanying cittas with lobha in the following mind door processes. Is this too technical? Snipping from an earlier post I wrote: “Just to summarise the five kinds of feeling; a) pleasant bodily feeling (sukha) b) painful bodily feeling (dukkha) c) happy feeling (somanassa) d) unhappy feeling (domanassa) e) indifferent feeling (upekkha) When there is kaya-vinnana (body-consciousness), this is kusala or akusala vipaka (wholesome or unwholesome result of kamma) and it is accompanied by either sukha or dukkha respectively. There is no lobha or dosa at these moments of pleasant or painful bodily feeling. The kaya-vinnana is very short - just a moment of vipaka only. This citta may, however, be followed by kusala or akusala cittas (wholesome or unwholesome consciousness) and these will be accompanied by somanassa, domanassa or upekkha. When I read the messages about the weather I was reminded of a quote from the Atthasalini which Nina uses in 'Cetasikas'. She's writing about how dosa (and therefore domanassa too) arises 'on account of any object experienced through one of the six doors.' she continues: 'One may even be cross with the rain, the sun or the wind. We read in the Atthasalini (11, Book 11, Part 11, summary, Ch 11, 367): ..."Or when vexation (springs up) groundlessly" means anger without reason; for example, someone gets angry saying "it rains too much", "it does not rain", "the sun shines too much", "it does not shine"; gets angry when the wind blows, when it does not blow, gets angry at being unable to sweep away the Bodhi leaves, at being unable to put on his robe; he gets angry with the wind, in slipping he gets angry with a tree-stump..." “ ***** Likewise, one may be happy with anything including sticking one’s head in a bucket of ice-cold water. Must be all that Astanga training, Frank;-) Sarah ===== 16062 From: Sarah Date: Thu Oct 3, 2002 2:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] ok Sarah Hi Henry, We’ve already had a friendly chat off-list about the video chat in your post, so hopefully that’s resolved and history;-) Let me make a few comments on the head and tail of your post here which are of more relevance to DSG: --- vimmuti wrote: > First, my oldest daughters name is sarah so this feels like i found a > good place. ..... Actually, I should be signing off each time as Sarah A as we also have Sarah F on DSG. Hope your daughter joins us too one day. >Been doing vipasana for about 30 years, mentors are Ven > Piyananda, Mahasi Sayadaw, Satgayi U Ba Kin and currently Bhante > Gunaratana where i am an occasional driver at his center. Mrs. Ruth > Denison was my teacher... Do work for Wat Rangsee in Sterling Va. ..... Thanks for giving us this info. The names will all be ringing many bells here. My first Buddhist teacher was a student of Mahasi Sayadaw’s too. ..... > Was up in Vancouver about two weeks ago visiting the big temple in > Richmond B.C. when i thought to myself, "what if we threw everything > out except the practice, what would it look like as a daily video > broadcast on the web, hmmm. > So i built a little sit and chat channel on an ap called Paltalk and > it is going pretty good. .... Glad to hear it. We find on DSG that there are as many ideas of practice as there are members. What is your definition (in one paragraph preferably)? ..... > An introduction to Satipathana Meditation > Satipathana Meditation is also known as Insight Meditation, and > the aim is > to gain a better awareness of one's nature, whether physical, > mental, > or spiritual. One way to be more aware is by observing our > perceptions; .... We’ll be discussing the Satipatthana sutta and commentaries in detail. I understand the description and directions you give are the standard meditation instructions. I’m not sure if you are wishing to discuss these or just to inform us. ..... > now the way i was taught does not label sensation... even to hot, > cold, rough ect. and because i want to be absolutely precise and in > line with the dhamma and because i was taught to switch focus to the > nimita and when it habituates and stabilizes use it as a microscope, > i wondered what you thought....thanks, henry ..... Earlier you referred to satipatthana and insight meditation (I think). There are several definitions of nimitta which has a specific meaning when referring to objects of samatha. In the development of satipatthana, it refers to any object, any paramattha dhamma (absolute reality) as I understand. In other words, there is no need to ‘switch focus’ or focus at all in the development of satipatthana. When there is this kind of focus, is there any detachment from the nama or rupa already conditioned at this moment? Is there any idea of a self focussing or being aware? I’m not at all sure, we’re on the same wave-length, Henry. These are just my understandings, not those of the rest of DSG. I hope we can have some further discussion without too much of a rocky path;-) Sarah ===== 16063 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Oct 3, 2002 4:10am Subject: Study with Bhikkhu Bodhi Dear Group, Those fortunate ones who live near the address below, may be interested in the chance to study the Majjhima Nikaya and attend a class in Pali taught by Bhikkhu Bodhi. Bodhi Monastery, 67 Lawrence Road, Lafayette, NJ 07848-3018 http://www.bodhimonastery.net/venbhikkhubodhi.htm "Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi will be leading a sutta study group starting Tuesday, January 7, 2003. We will be studying the Majjhima Nikaya (The Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha). The class will run continuously on Tuesday evenings from 7:00-8:00pm. He will also conduct a class in Pali, the language of the early Buddhist canon. This course will begin on Saturday, January 4. It will run continuously on Saturday afternoons from 2:45pm-3:45pm for roughly 12 to 24 weeks. There are no fees for the classes, but you will need to purchase books. Please make your reservations for these classes by December 1, so that we can order the books at a discounted rate for you." metta, Christine 16064 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Oct 3, 2002 4:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] When a being has laid down this body Good point Rob. I think I was getting tangled up in my thinking. Nothing like dsg-ers to straighten that out. :) metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Christine, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > Whether there is a being, and a period between births, is > > a crucially important matter don't you think? > > I am going to play devil's advocate here and take an opposing view. > > "Instantaneous rebirth" or "non-Instantaneous rebirth" does not > impact kamma, four noble truths, eightfold noble path, > paticcasamuppada or any of the "core" teachings of the Buddha. Why > make it an issue? > > Tissa was reborn as a flea for seven days because he was attached to > his robe. Following that, he was again reborn as a deva in Tusita > heaven. Unlike the deva planes (and higher), the four woeful planes > and the human plane have indefinite lifespans. Why can't we be born > in one of these planes for a short time and then be reborn into > another plane due to our reserve (katatta) kamma? > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) 16065 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Oct 3, 2002 4:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] When a being has laid down this body/Howard Thanks Howard. I think I'll get 'The Selfless Mind' - you seem to think highly of it, and I value PH's 'Intro. to Buddhist Ethics'. metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Chris - Harvey's position is that original Buddhism did accept intermediate > states between realms of experience. He didn't go into details, however, > about how long such a state would last. I believe the Tibetans consider such > states to be much like dream states. They typically last up to 49 days. I > would assume that there is some sort of subtle embodiment involved - like the > "mind-made" body the Buddha refers to occasionally or the astral body of the > occultists. > I don't see that this business has any bearing on anatta at all. Even > right now, with our "solid" bodies and with our apparent "existence", there > really is no "you" and no "I" as unitary, continuing things. Right now we are > empty of essence, empty of self. > > With metta, > Howard 16066 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Oct 3, 2002 4:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] When a being has laid down this body/Jim Hi Jim, Thanks for your helpful comments on 'antaraabhava' and 'gandhabba'. I have had a look at the Gandhabbasamyutta - the devas of the gandhabba order are 'long-lived and beautiful, and abound in happiness.' dwelling in fragrant roots, heartwood, softwood, fragrant bark, shoots, leaves, flowers, fruits, sap, and scents" ... it actually reminds me of the works of an Australian writer and artist May Gibbs well known for her childrens' tales and illustrations of the Adventures of Snugglepot and Cuddlepie who were Gumnuts (woody seed pods of the Eucalyptus or Gum tree). I do have Warder (3rd Edition), de Silva, and Rhys David's and Stede's Pali-English dictionary. Perhaps I'll give it a try and work through de Silva's Lessons first, then go on to those by Horner. I hope I could be as diligent as you are, though I think languages require a certain talent as well. ( I hate to admit this, but I experience difficulty finding my way around the P-E Dictionary ...). metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Jim Anderson" wrote: > Dear Christine, > > > Thank you, Jim. I hope I don't have to annoy you in dribs and drabs > > of quotes from the Suttas about this. It is just that I don't > > remember noticing this topic before, and now it seems to be popping > > up everywhere. I sometimes wonder if I should try to learn Pali - > > would it take years to become proficient even at a beginner stage? > > Yes, I think so from my own experience but any amount of learning > however small can be of help. I first came into contact with Buddhism > in 1970 and became interested in the Pali language in 1973 but it > wasn't until 1976 after I had bought a well-worn second hand copy of > Warder's Introduction to Pali (which incidentally contains a line in > Ven. H. Saddhatissa's own handwriting) that I then decided that it was > time to begin and ever since -- learning and reading Pali continues to > be of primary interest to me. And looking back now, I think it was one > of the best decisions I ever made. No regrets here! > > > The University of Qld does run Introductory and Advanced courses in > > Pali in its Studies in Religion School (presented only in the day > > time though -and the Hospital can't quite be brought to the > > understanding of the benefit in granting me study leave for Pali - > > even in a multi-cultural area.:). > > I didn't learn Pali by taking courses at a university although I had > seriously considered doing so. The only Pali teacher I studied > (briefly) with was a Sinhalese student of Prof. Warder in 1980 who was > doing his Ph.D. and most of the learning has been done on my own with > the help of a growing collection of Pali books. The self-taught way > has worked fine for me although it's probably a much slower way as one > just goes at the pace desired and without the pressure of homework > assignments. The important thing is to nurture the interest and keep > it alive, the rest will follow. > > > It is just frustrating to be in > > the power of the Translators and not even know if they themselves > are > > in error. > > This is where a knowledge of Pali comes in handy as you can check the > translations with the Pali originals and look up stuff in the > commentaries, most of which still remain untranslated into English. > > > Whether there is a being, and a period between births, is > > a crucially important matter don't you think? Not just whether a > > Pali word means 'dark green' or 'aquamarine', or whether a comma or > a > > semi-colon should have been used. I am very grateful that you (and > > others on the list) are able to throw some additional light on the > > Scriptures and translations. > > The Pali word for Bardo is 'antaraabhava' or the intermediate state of > existence and there are many references to this term in the > commentaries and seems to occur only in the Kathaavatthu text of the > Tipitaka. There is an informative debate on this issue in Vagga VIII.2 > where the Pubbaseliyas and the Sammitiyas maintain that there is an > intermediate state of existence. The Theravadins refute this. You can > read it in Points of Controversy, 212ff. which is a PTS translation of > Kv. > > > In another Sutta, the Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta 'The Greater Discourse > > on the Destruction of Craving' - the Blessed One is demolishing > > the 'pernicious view' of Sati (I always feel so sorry for Sati). > > There does seem here to be a mention of a being-in-waiting ... In > > the section (The Round of Existence: Conception to Maturity) the > > Buddha says "Bhikkhus, the conception of an embryo in a womb takes > > place through the union of three things. Here, there is union of > the > > mother and father, but it not the mother's season, and THE BEING TO > > BE REBORN IS NOT PRESENT - in this case there is not conception of > an > > embryo in a womb. Here, there is the union of the mother and > father, > > and it is the mother's season, BUT THE BEING TO BE REBORN IS NOT > > PRESENT - in this case too there is no conception of an embryo in a > > womb. But when there is a union of the mother and father and it is > > the mother's season, AND THE BEING TO BE REBORN IS PRESENT, THROUGH > > THE UNION OF THESE THREE THINGS THE CONCEPTION OF AN EMBRYO IN A > > WOMB TAKES PLACE." > > "THE BEING TO BE REBORN" is 'gandhabba' in Pali. I'm not at all clear > on this term as the commentary says that 'gantabba' is what is really > meant. Gandhabba is also a term used for a lower class of deities > sometimes referred to as celestial musicians (cupids?) who facilitate > conception. There is a chapter in SN called Gandhabbasa.myutta. More > research would be needed for me to say much more. > > Best wishes, > Jim 16067 From: Date: Thu Oct 3, 2002 5:07am Subject: Re: catukotika Hello Larry, I was going to respond to your original post questioning the entire enterprise by beginning: Ever sit down with your girlfriend and explain to her the importance of following and caring about the San Francisco Forty-niners? Which is why we have to stay home and watch the game and can't go to the Celtic Faire? But now I see you also understand what really matters ;-) metta, stephen 16068 From: Date: Thu Oct 3, 2002 5:03am Subject: Re: logical Hello Rob, >My first pass at interpreting this Sutta is that neither "Existence" >nor "Non-existence" are valid because they both imply a static >state. The Sutta goes on to mention dependent origination to >reinforce that everything is in flux. Me too. I don't want to alarm you but a quick reading of your post this morning gives me the impression that we may be in agreement! It occurred to me later that if we see it as 'mere reason' in the sense that it's good to use reason (don't be unreasonable) but it's not enough, then this also must apply to the other criteria. So they are also valid, so far as they go; they just don't go all the way. (I hope look up your post on freewill sometime this afternoon.) metta, stephen 16069 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 3, 2002 10:00am Subject: Seeking rebirth Dear Jim, This is very clear about a being who lays down this body. Amazing how tricky translations can be. It shows again how important Pali is, I am fascinated by these examples. Best wishes, Nina. 16070 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 3, 2002 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] illogical? - Nina in particular Dear Stephen, Sarah answered very well with quotes from the Brahmajala sutta. See below. op 02-10-2002 02:42 schreef oreznoone@a... op oreznoone@a...: > > An alternative point of view, on most everything N: that is O.K. We cannot all agree. > > And how can we learn what dukkha is? It is the arising and >> falling away of nama and rupa, each moment. > S: No, not really. It's the *attachment* to the rising a falling. Not the > khandha but the upadanakkhandas. N: The first noble Truth is dukkha, and the second one is the origination of dukkha :clinging. These two Truths are, as the Co, the Dispeller of Deluision said, profound, because hard to grasp. There are many levels of explaining the four noble Truths. In short (sa.nkhittena) the five khandhas [as objects] of clinging are dukkha. There is a great deal more to be said, but time is lacking. >> How can this be realized? By >> first knowing precisely what nama is, what rupa is: a reality to be >> experienced one at a time through one of the six doors, at this very moment. S: No, even if one could experience this, and even if this distinction is real, > it wouldn't make any real difference or provide insight. What's needed is > insight into one's clinging (through vipassana, one supposes); there's > nothing wrong with namarupa in itself. Such knowledge (of sense-data), if > any, would miss the picture. N: Insight is developed in stages. Only when nama is clearly distinguished from rupa they can be known as conditioned dhammas and later on their arising and falling away can be realized.Thus, they are , insignificant dhammas: arising just for a moment and then gone for ever, no matter how pleasant or unpleasant, how wholesome or unwholesome. Not only clinging should be known but all kinds of dhammas appearing one at a time through the six doors. In the course of insight the three characteristics are understood more clearly and also, consequently, there will be more detachment from nama and rupa. But this process develops very gradually because our clinging is deeply rooted. > >> Kom and Larry's dialogue is most important and essential, as Sarah said. >> What is a concept, what is a reality. A concept is that which makes known, >> thus, a name, or the idea that is made known. > S. Yes, exactly: that which makes known. Without a concept nothing is known; all > seeing is seeing-as. All perception is theory laden. Everything is 'merely' > conceptualized. (Now if you're going to tell me that nama-pannatti is that > which makes known and I'm misusing the definition..., but I'm doing so on > purpose.) N: Seeing experiences visible object, no concept is needed. Sa~n~naa accompanies each citta, also seeing. It is not necessarily perception of theory. I do not know your purpose here, about misusing something. >> We should not confuse >> concepts with thinking. Thinking itself is real and it can think of what >> is real or what is not real but what is a concept. S: This is an odd use of the word "thinking." I think in words all the time. N: Not always in words. Babies cognize concepts, but no language yet. S: Well, you gave it a good shot. What can one do about those obdurate types? N: No, not obdurate. It is understandable that many points are not clear yet. Also language can be confusing. As Jim pointed out, how tricky translations can be. All the best with your study, Nina. 16071 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 3, 2002 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 6, Intro cont, questions Dear all, op 02-10-2002 01:38 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > All the four different objects of mindfulness: body, feeling, > consciousness and mental objects, have to be understood before one > reaches sanctitude. According to character, temperament and cognizing > slant, one can make however only one of these the preliminary object of > contemplation. It is often the case that owing to a lack of proper > understanding of oneself one has to try all objects before one gets to > know what suits one best for the preliminary work. The choice is made > more difficult by the fact that most of us have no clear-cut natures and > are a mixture of a little of every possible human characteristic. In > these circumstances there is no alternative to the method of trial and > error. But the earnest ones will find their way with persistence and > sustained effort. N: Indeed we are a mixture, and how could we choose. I do not see these four objects as objects one should select as an object of concentration. Now feeling appears, next moment citta is object of understanding, then rupa, then cetasika. No specific order, and we can verify this ourselves now. Who could select, no time. Ven. Soma sees the four Applications as preliminary objects of concentration. That is a different view. We shall have to check the text of Sutta and Co. It seems that he sees them as objects of samatha which have to be developed until jhana is attained, so that afterwards there can be insight based on jhana. But how about the sukkha vipassakas, those with dry insight? Nina. 16073 From: Sarah Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 0:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] When a being has laid down this body Hi Rob M (and the ‘laying down the body’ corner;-)), You'll see I start with your questions and can't resist getting side-tracked into the other discussion. --- robmoult wrote: > Hi All, > > Does anybody know the proximate cause of masculinity, femininity and > heart base? > > I suspect that it might be sankhara; according to paticcasamuppada, > patisandhi-citta depends upon sankhara to arise and it is the > patisandhi-citta which has the characteristics to masculinity / > femininity and heart base. > > Comments? ..... I’m not sure that we can talk about ‘proximate cause’ fo rupas. Usually this term is used for mental factors. From the Atthasalini: “Immediate occasion (pada.t.thaana.m) means proximate cause. Thus wherever we speak of characteristics, etc , their mutual difference should be understood in this wise.” (p.84 in transl). Also I don’t understand what you mean when you say “patisandhi-citta which has the characteristics to masculinity / femininity and heart base.” Masculinity, femininity and heart-base are 3 subtle rupas produced by kamma from the first moment of life (patisandhi citta). So it is entirely as a result of kamma what the sex is and also, as long as patisandhi citta arises in the sensuous plane or any other plane with nama and rupa, there must be heart- base from the beginning. All cittas other than the 5 sense experiencing cittas depend on it. Cittas arise continually according to conditions. We have a conventional idea about new birth, but actually it’s only the continuation of namas and rupas according to kamma and other causes. In planes with 5 khandhas, there cannot be nama without rupa and so these rupas must be conditioned to arise at rebirth by several conditions including kamma and also conascence condition (sahajata paccaya) whereby the patisandhi citta and heart-base rupa condition each other.The patisandhi citta is also conascence condition for the other groups of rupa (including the sex faculty) produced by kamma. As you know, the kamma and other conditions bringing about vipaka citta are very complex. By proximity condition (anantara paccaya), cittas have to succeed each other ‘without interval’ (leaving aside special cases of ‘suspension’ of citta in arupa jhana and asanna satta planes). Thus the last citta of life must be succeeded immediately by the first citta of the new life. If there is the understanding of cittas, cetasikas and rupas (no people or places), then it’s easier to understand different kinds of vipaka and conditions and so on. There are 4 different kinds of birth by womb, eggs, moisture and spontaneous. Nina gives more details in ‘Abhidhamma’ ch 10 and 11. She points out there that we cannot know when life ends or starts exactly as we don’t know others’ cittas. Similarly we can never know what kamma will produce the next patisandhi citta. It may be from a previous life. Though “the present life is different from the past life but there is continuity in so far as the present life is conditioned by the past. Since the patisandhi citta succeeds the cuti citta of the previous life the accumulated tendencies of past life go on to the patisandhi citta. Thus, inclinations one has in the present life are conditioned by the past.” ***** I just followed Jim’s very helpful comments and reference below in the Kathavatthu and commentary: “The Pali word for Bardo is 'antaraabhava' or the intermediate state of existence and there are many references to this term in the commentaries and seems to occur only in the Kathaavatthu text of the Tipitaka. There is an informative debate on this issue in Vagga VIII.2 where the Pubbaseliyas and the Sammitiyas maintain that there is an intermediate state of existence. The Theravadins refute this. You can read it in Points of Controversy, 212ff. which is a PTS translation of Kv. “ As the summary from the commentary reads “Some..., by a careless aceptation of the Sutta-phrase - ‘completed existence within the interval’ - held that there is an interim stage where a being awaits reconception for a week or longer. The counter-argument is based on the Exalted One’s dictum that there are three states of becoming only - the Kaama-, the Ruupa-, and the Aruupa worlds. (SN, 11, 3 etc).” Unlike Howard, I tend to think the question of anatta is of relevance. Isn’t it only when there is an idea of ‘beings’ rather than a continuous succession of cittas, that these questions arise? Even in a dream-like or coma-like state, there is a succession of cittas and conditioned and conditioning rupas. Sarah ===== 16074 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 1:19am Subject: [dsg] Re: preparation for sati? Hi Rob M, Thanks for your reply, I can't get too much of this type of discussion. You wrote: ----------- > By volunteering to teach the beginners' class this year, I forced myself into a situation where I had to do research each week. > -------------- In my humble opinion, the best thing to teach a beginner is that the Middle Way is absolutely different from the two extremes. We were talking about music lessons before; the reality the Buddha taught is absolutely different from music. A music student doesn't need to know there is no musician who plays or that there is no instrument or music that is played. If we believe that the Buddha, like a music teacher, prescribed forms of practice that it is our duty to follow, then we must have a perception of a self who can follow. By listening, studying or meditating with that belief, we will (as I understand it), accumulate conditions for more wrong understanding. ----------- > . . . I cannot deny that there is an element of wish, expectation and desire in my meditation practice. I feel that this is a barrier to progress. My "brain" tells me that my duty is just to sit and that the appropriate experiences will come to me when the conditions are right... it is useless to chase after them. > ------------- Continuing from the other day with my fault-finding, (sorry about this), I question the need for meditation experiences. Aren't they a pretence at higher knowledge? We are ignorant worldlings; a worldling is what the Buddha described, in effect, as this present moment. The namas and rupas of the present moment, ignoble though they may be, are all we need to understand. -------------------- > . . . I seriously want to improve my meditation practice. > -------------------- I remember that you practise meditation with a view to obtaining a `mindfulness perspective,' but I forget whether you are of the opinion that meditation forms a part of the Buddha's teaching. Many dsg people, most recently Jon and Robert Ep, have had long-running discussions on this topic. Have you read them yet? What is your opinion? Kind regards Ken H 16075 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 4:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] rupas out there Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - ... ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't feel the need for a purity of Buddhist view, Jon. In any case, when I read the Kalakarama Sutta and the Bahiya Sutta I see a phenomenalist understanding expressed. That is how I understand the Dhamma. Many others do as well. Many do not. It is certainly not encumbant on anyone to see it that way - nor is it verboten. ------------------------------------------------------ Agreed absolutely, Howard (nothing is verboten). Actually, I did read these 2 suttas at the time you posted them previously, but was unable to see what exactly was the 'phenomenalist understanding' being expressed. If you feel like explaining the connection in more detail, I'd be interested to hear. The other thing I'd be interested to know is the significance that this issue apparently has to those who espouse this view of things. What are the implications for the development of samatha/vipassana, as you/they would see it? Thanks. Jon PS I also agree that the aim is not 'a purity of Buddhist view'. The aim is simply purity of view, i.e., seeing things as they truly are. Hence the danger of any holding to views that are other than in accordance with things as they truly are (a tendency we all have heaps of, imo). 16076 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 4:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation and Satipatthana Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Christine and Jon, > > Formal meditation isn't a new development but I read somewhere that the > "Burmese Satipatthana Method" is new, developed early last century, I > think. I believe this is characterized by "noting" whatever arises. As > you know, Mahasi Sayadaw spread it far and wide. I had a Tibetan teacher > and he found this to be compatible with, but slightly different from, > his own tradition. Also, I'm sure he modified his own traditional method > for western students. > > Larry There are many methods out there, all claiming to be correct ways of 'practice'. The question one needs to ask in each case is the same question you asked Rob M in a recent post in relation to sati, namely, whether there is textual reference for it. I can't see any other way of evaluating a 'practice', can you? Jon 16077 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 4:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Elements of Thinking/Contemplation in Vipassana Bhavana Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - ... << In the following you write: "However (and I'm not sure if this is something you are alluding to in your post), nothing in the foregoing necessarily suggests a formal aspect to the occasion on which these mental states may arise, as I would see it." The answer is that, no, this post of mine didn't pertain to the formal vs informal issue at all, but rather pointed to aspects of vipassana bhavana that involve "thinking about" (which includes concept processing). >> Then I missed your point. My apologies. I think we'll come to this topic in Larry's 'Way' series in due course. << As far as the formal vs. informal issue is concerned (a separate issue), I see the Buddha as teaching both, ...>> Interesting. If both formal and informal are taught, how do they differ, as you understand it, in application and effect (i.e., apart from the formality/informality of the occasion)? Jon 16078 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 4:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: slow motion Rob M Just a couple of comments on part of your post to Ken H. --- robmoult wrote: > Hi Ken, ... > Let me first clarify my point; I view mindfulness as a perspective, > not a skill. My sons' perspective on music is inborn, but a little > bit of training helps give them the "vocabulary" to articulate and > discriminate what they hear. Even if they stopped practicing now and > did not practice for fifty years, they would still have the musical > perspective (though their skills would be virtually gone). As a keen student of the Abhidhamma, you will know that mindfulness is the mental factor sati, and that it accumulates in the same way as any other tendency good or bad. In the case of metta, for example, would you describe it as a 'perspective', a 'skill', or something else again? > There is a glass with water in it. The optimist "automatically" sees > the glass as "half full"; the classification happened because of his > perspective. The pessimist "automatically" sees the glass as "half > empty"; again his conditioning plays a role. A "mindful person" does > not see "half empty", does not see "half full", does not see "glass" > and does not see "water"; a "mindful person" only sees "visible > object". If a person no longer saw "glass", "water" or "half full/empty", he would not be able to function in the world. I would suggest that this sort of conceptualising is as necessary for the enlightened being as it is for the unenlightened. To my reading of the texts, mindfulness means that the different phenomena are not taken for being other than they are, but not that one stops conceptualising about phenomena. It's easy to overlook the fact that the conceptualising is itself a kind of dhamma, namely, the dhamma that is consciousness, even though the concepts that are the object of that dhamma are not. > I beleive that to learn a mindfulness > perspective, I have to practice meditation until it becomes natural. > I am hoping that once I have achived that level, that I will be able > to "turn mindfulness on" and "turn mindfulness off" as required (if > I am only ever aware of the present moment, I will certainly miss my > flight tomorrow). Missing a flight because of too much mindfulness -- are there any parallels in the texts? And are you sure that that kind of mindfulness is what you want (and what implications would it have for one's marriage, I wonder?!)? Jon 16079 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 4:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] for the mind to be alive and interested within the mass of humanity Antony --- Antony Woods wrote: > Dear List, > > I've noticed that my metta practice is limited and my mind doesn't > really relate to the mass of humanity (I just looked at the prayer > circle directory at BeliefNet.com - it is huge!). > > I understand that I can only relate in speech and actions with a few > people but the mind is very fast and I think there is a possibility > of cultivating metta creatively to many beings in different > categories. > > I've read that mudita (appreciative joy) is an antidote for boredom > so I'm particularly looking for ways of healing the internal split > between "me" and "other people" so that the mind is alive and > interested. > > Please share your experiences and insights with opening the mind in > this way. > > Thanks / Antony. I'm not sure that my mind qualifies as being 'alive and interested' ;-)). However, I'll still offer my comments. My own perspective would be that the 'internal split between "me" and "other people"' that you refer to, and that is familiar to us all, is a function of ignorance and wrong view rather than lack of sufficient metta or mudita. In other words, it will be with us as long as there is a lack of developed understanding of the true nature of the present moment. Even for those who reach the highest levels of metta and karuna, the 'internal split' is merely suppressed rather than eradicated, as long as insight has not been developed. Jon 16080 From: vimmuti Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 6:31am Subject: the sign as parikamma nimitta and other things when i do meditation at retreat or afterwards for a while at home and while the kilesas are suppressed there is an actual strong physical result in my concentration as a felt area. And much more attenuated it pops up in each days sits. to me it is tingley sort of round has color (don't know if color is the right word). Within it is the world of change going on in the body. Now as you know i am trying to interest people in trying out sitting without any preload of dhamma, just as something nice and beneficial in itself. So, and you have to remember my med instructions, if someone was to say what is a goal, i would say (and i am a total non goal person believe you me) well if you could get to the point where the parikamma nimitta appears thru habit and stabilizes so you can use it as a microscope to look at incoming pure sensation in a very new way that would show you how conditioned and closed our normal perceptions are.. Lrdi Sayadaw a very wise man who lived in Burma a long time ago says, "The practice of samatha until the appearance of parikamma nimitta, and the practice of vipasana until insight is obtained, even once, are both mature seeds filled with pith and substance". So my question to Sarah and anyone really, as i am a not a dhamma student is: is the thing i am going to tell people is a worthwhile goal the same as the *sign* found in The Path of Liberation- Upatissa the Elder's book? .....quietmind 16081 From: Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 3:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] When a being has laid down this body Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 10/4/02 3:48:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Unlike Howard, I tend to think the question of anatta is of relevance. > Isn’t it only when there is an idea of ‘beings’ rather than a continuous > succession of cittas, that these questions arise? Even in a dream-like or > coma-like state, there is a succession of cittas and conditioned and > conditioning rupas. > ============================= I agree with your last two sentences. My point was that conventional existence in alleged intermediate realms is no more a matter of atta than is conventional existence in a standard realm such as the human realm. As I wrote: Even right now, with our "solid" bodies and with our apparent "existence", there really is no "you" and no "I" as unitary, continuing things. Right now we are empty of essence, empty of self. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16082 From: Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 3:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Elements of Thinking/Contemplation in Vipassana Bhavana Hi, Jon - In a message dated 10/4/02 7:23:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > ... > << In the following you write: "However (and I'm not sure if this is > something you are alluding to in your post), nothing in the foregoing > necessarily suggests a formal aspect to the occasion on which these mental > states may arise, as I would see it." > The answer is that, no, this post of mine didn't pertain to the > formal vs informal issue at all, but rather pointed to aspects of > vipassana bhavana that involve "thinking about" (which includes concept > processing). >> > > Then I missed your point. My apologies. I think we'll come to this topic > in Larry's 'Way' series in due course. > > << As far as the formal vs. informal issue is concerned (a separate > issue), I see the Buddha as teaching both, ...>> > > Interesting. If both formal and informal are taught, how do they differ, > as you understand it, in application and effect (i.e., apart from the > formality/informality of the occasion)? > > Jon > > =========================== The informality/formality of the occasion is, of course, not the point. By formal meditation I mean the case of one restricting the variety of sensory inputs by a combination of external actions (e.g., seeking a quiet place or closing one's eyes) and the internal actions of restricting one's attention (concentrating on selected stimuli) and initially calming and concentrating the mind by attending to a single phenomenon (conventional, such as the breath) for a period of time. By informal meditation I mean attending to whatever arises without such restrictive procedures, during ordinary activities. I see advantages and disadvantages to each. I think the main disadvantage to formal meditation is that the hindrances of sloth and torpor more easily arise in that context, and the advantage is more ease in the development of strong concentration and microscopic attention. I think the disadvantage of informal meditation is that the hindrance of distraction more easily arises in that context and that concentration less easily develops, and the advantage is more ease in maintaining a bright mind (avoiding sloth and torpor) and having a wider range of phenomena open to one's perusal. Jon, with regard to your previous post on the Kalakarama Sutta and the Bahiya Sutta, I will have to get back to you about them another time. But if you are interested, I would strongly recommend Bhikkhu ~Nanananda's book The Magic of the Mind. He expresses the matter far better than I could. You can find it on amazon.com by doing a search on "Nanananda". (The url is a bit ungainly to forward) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16083 From: Frank Kuan Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 8:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Back to Frank (was: Episode II: Vedana [Howard]) Hi Sarah, thanks for the explanation. I've been busy but also consciously cutting down on my internet time. Trying to restrict my internet (ab)usage to 1hour max per day. --- Sarah wrote: . > ..... > Just to clarify, ALL feelings are namas (vedana > khandha). Ok, this makes sense to me, but ... > Those referred > to as ‘physical’ refer to feelings accompanying > cittas experiencing their > objects through the body-sense. It can be confusing, > I know. > > So when you stick your head in ice cold water, there > will be unpleasant > bodily feeling (dukkha vedana) accompanying the > citta of body sense > consciousness (vipaka citta) which experiences the > coldness (a rupa). So again, if feelings are ONLY namas (mental aggregates), then: 1) calling unpleasant bodily feeling sure seems like a misnomer and adds more confusion. 2) I have a really hard time believing that these unpleasant bodily feelings are a function of kamma vipaka. In this very moment, I can experience coldness (rupa) + bodily consciousness of that rupa coldness, and whether I feel that pleasant or unpleasant (mental) feeling is dependent on conditions, but pretty kammically neutral conditions most of the time as I see it. You could argue that what I perceive as unpleasant physical feeling is already the mental feelings that follow the intial coldness(rupa)+bodily consciousness+unpleasant physical feeling, but how can we verify? 3) It seems like the abidhamma is trying to break things down into a completely logical and atomic moment by moment analysis, and it doesn't seem right to me. In other words, I think you get yourself into trouble by trying to find a unified theory that explains reality through concepts, whereas the sutta usages of things like kusala, akusala, are somewhat fuzzier things that can't be broken down into perfectly clean and dilineated atomic units. It's hard to put into words what I mean, but what it comes down to is it's more important that I decrease the (unnecessary) mental unpleasant feeling that follows unpleasnat physical experiences (through lots of daily meditation practice :) , and not worry too much whether there is a perfect theory that explains blow by blow what's happening each mind moment. -fk 16084 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 10:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: preparation for sati? Dear Rob M and Ken, Good idea Ken, to contunue Dhamma conversations. You have a reputation of being able to keep Dhamma conversations going. I wish you would be in Bgk end November. For some reactions, see below. op 03-10-2002 09:11 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > > This is an example of leveraging akusala tendencies for kusala > purposes. I know that I will have to pay the kammic price for my > mana and dosa, but the kammic weight of learning and teaching the > Dhamma will "outweigh" them. > I am okay with akusala motivation for my class preparation. N: this is a good example how akusala can condition kusala, it can also happen that kusala conditions akusala. All this is natural strong dependence condition, pakatupanissaya paccaya. Whatever kusala we are performing, akusala cittas are bound to arise in between. But it is good to realize this. Without the Dhamma we would never have known. And this is Buddhanusati. R: However, > I view my meditation practice differently. I cannot deny that there > is an element of wish, expectation and desire in my meditation > practice. I feel that this is a barrier to progress. My "brain" > tells me that my duty is just to sit and that the appropriate > experiences will come to me when the conditions are right... it is > useless to chase after them. While my "brain" is telling me this, > my "heart" is still craving (some days more, some days less). >> In summary, akusala is not an obstacle to my teaching, but it is an > obstacle to my meditation. N: You may be inclined to samatha and samatha is kusala. It is helpful to know the many possibilities of samatha. Apart from mindfulness of breathing, there are many other subjects, like the Recollections, or mindfulness of death. See the Visuddhimagga, which makes very good reading. Can meditation also be: reading and then pondering over it? There does not necessarily have to be reciting or counting. When you are occupied with a meditation subject there is perhaps no need to think of progress all the time. But this is such a personal area, each person should see for himself what is beneficial. > R: I seriously want to improve my meditation practice. N: No who can improve anything. If one thinks of improving it could well be, as Herman (I miss him) said, that the self is the subject one concentrates on. Improvement or progress is progress in something. It is good to make clear to ourselves in what and whereto we wish to improve. The appropriate conditions will lead to the result which is in accordance with those conditions. Merely *thinking* of wanting to improve will not lead to anything. Best wishes, Nina. 16085 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 10:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] studying Pali, to Chris. Dear Christine, I also have Buddhadatta's dict, small and handy to get around fast. On the first p. I write the letters in the Pali alphabetical order and then the page no. behind, for quick reference. Self teaching is fine, your own pace. Warder lets you read already at about Ch 18, makes it interesting. Success, Nina. op 03-10-2002 13:44 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@v...: > > I do have Warder (3rd Edition), de Silva, and Rhys David's and > Stede's Pali-English dictionary. Perhaps I'll give it a try and work > through de Silva's Lessons first, then go on to those by Horner. I > hope I could be as diligent as you are, though I think languages > require a certain talent as well. ( I hate to admit this, but I > experience difficulty finding my way around the P-E Dictionary ...). > 16086 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 10:16am Subject: Re: the sign as parikamma nimitta and other things --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "vimmuti" wrote: > > Lrdi Sayadaw a very wise man who lived in Burma a long time ago > says, "The practice of samatha until the appearance of parikamma > nimitta, and the practice of vipasana until insight is obtained, > even once, are both mature seeds filled with pith and substance". > So my question to Sarah and anyone really, as i am a not a dhamma > student is: is the thing i am going to tell people is a worthwhile > goal the same as the *sign* found in The Path of Liberation- > Upatissa the Elder's book? .....quietmind ___ Dear friend, As Ledi sayadaw says samatha and vipassana are certainly worthwhile- but there are wrong paths and counterfeit versions of these that we can be fooled by. The book you mention above is the Vimuttimagga( or path of freedom) I think. This is not a text that was passed on by the Theravada tradition and was possibly used by the Abhayagiri sect in Sri lanka (who often disputed with the orthodox Mahavihara). Whether there are any differences between what this book says and the texts of the Theravada would need careful investigation. Robert 16087 From: Uan Chih Liu Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 10:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] When a being has laid down this body Hi Howard, Christine, > Harvey's position is that original Buddhism did accept intermediate > states between realms of experience. He didn't go into details, however, > about how long such a state would last. I believe the Tibetans consider such > states to be much like dream states. They typically last up to 49 days. I > would assume that there is some sort of subtle embodiment involved - like the > "mind-made" body the Buddha refers to occasionally or the astral body of the > occultists. > I don't see that this business has any bearing on anatta at all. Even > right now, with our "solid" bodies and with our apparent "existence", there > really is no "you" and no "I" as unitary, continuing things. Right now we are > empty of essence, empty of self. > I think I can empathize with Christine since we are both coming from Christianity background. The talk of rebirth inevitably leads one to interpret that there is this eternal "soul" that is going through different states, and different realms of experience. Sure, there is no "you" and "I" as unitary, continuing beings, as it is composed of ever changing elements. However, if one were to decompose "being" to the finest granuity, can we eventually identify an element that is so small and yet so powerful that we identify as "soul" that is what bring "beings" to "life", the third "THING" for rebirth to occur, the recipient of panna, the thing that's clinging, accumulating? Sure, this elements changes, adds and subtracts continuously, but is there a underlying gem that is constant? Buddhism says no, I guess if you divide things infinitely, if you divide by infinity, you will get zero, emptiness. WL 16088 From: Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 7:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] When a being has laid down this body Hi, WL - In a message dated 10/4/02 1:29:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, uanchihliu@h... writes: > > Hi Howard, Christine, > > > Harvey's position is that original Buddhism did accept > intermediate > > states between realms of experience. He didn't go into details, however, > > about how long such a state would last. I believe the Tibetans consider > such > > states to be much like dream states. They typically last up to 49 days. I > > would assume that there is some sort of subtle embodiment involved - like > the > > "mind-made" body the Buddha refers to occasionally or the astral body of > the > > occultists. > > I don't see that this business has any bearing on anatta at all. > Even > > right now, with our "solid" bodies and with our apparent "existence", > there > > really is no "you" and no "I" as unitary, continuing things. Right now we > are > > empty of essence, empty of self. > > > I think I can empathize with Christine since we are both coming from > Christianity background. The talk of rebirth inevitably leads one to > interpret > that there is this eternal "soul" that is going through different states, > and different > realms of experience. Sure, there is no "you" and "I" as unitary, > continuing beings, > as it is composed of ever changing elements. However, if one were to > decompose > "being" to the finest granuity, can we eventually identify an element that > is so > small and yet so powerful that we identify as "soul" that is what bring > "beings" > to "life", the third "THING" for rebirth to occur, the recipient of panna, > the thing > that's clinging, accumulating? Sure, this elements changes, adds and > subtracts > continuously, but is there a underlying gem that is constant? Buddhism > says > no, > I guess if you divide things infinitely, if you divide by infinity, you > will > get zero, > emptiness. > > WL > > =============================== It's not just that. First of all, there is just a sequence of events, not "things". Secondly, when you write <> I think you miss the mark slightly. There are not ever-changing elements. Impermanence doesn't mean that "things change". It means that things don't remain. An event occurs, and then ceases. Later events arise conditioned by earlier ones. That's all - empty phenomena rolling on. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16089 From: Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 4:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] catukotika Hi Rob, Stephen, & all, I don't think catukotika has anything to say about how logic works, but I thought it looked like a profound practice. I'm not at all sure that I have interpreted it correctly, taking "relation" for "possession". I thought this would stir up some controversy. If "relation" is acceptable then the practice amounts to disowning all relatives, children, spouse, friends, enemies, associates, and allegiances. Also there might be something interesting to infer about conditional relations if we understand the practice to deny relatedness in general. An interesting distinction occurs between emptiness and nothingness. Emptiness is always contained by cyclical process (paticcasamuppada), while nothingness is the non-existence of infinite consciousness, or at least it is evoked as such. No container, I think(?). Anyway, here's the passage in case you didn't look it up: "Then again, the disciple of the noble ones considers this: 'I am not anyone's anything anywhere; nor is anything of mine in anyone anywhere.' Practicing & frequently abiding in this way, his mind acquires confidence in that dimension. There being full confidence, he either attains the dimension of nothingness now or else is committed to discernment. With the break-up of the body, after death, it's possible that this leading-on consciousness of his will go to the dimension of nothingness. This is declared to be the third practice conducive to the dimension of nothingness. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn106.html And here's how I understood it: 1. There is no self in these khandhas. 2. There is nothing that could be considered anyone's son, brother, friend etc. in these khandhas. 3. There is no self in those khandhas. 4. There is nothing that could be considered my parent, brother, sister, friend, etc. in those khandhas. Larry 16090 From: Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 4:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation and Satipatthana Hi Jon, You wrote: "There are many methods out there, all claiming to be correct ways of 'practice'. The question one needs to ask in each case is the same question you asked Rob M in a recent post in relation to sati, namely, whether there is textual reference for it. I can't see any other way of evaluating a 'practice', can you?" L: No, I think practice is different from samma-ditthi. Whatever works. There are many "skillful means" that are helpful to different people at different times, in different circumstances. The "Kun Sujin Effortless Listening Method" of satipatthana for example. Larry 16091 From: Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 5:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] the sign as parikamma nimitta and other things Hi Henry, I don't have the slightest idea what is the correct answer to your question, but in my opinion the best way to practice jhana is to look for attachment and let it go. This includes any physical or mental sensations. The object of jhana is a concept but even a rupa on the level of mundane samatha is just a reference point to prevent wandering mind. No significance to it in itself. My very inexperienced opinion only. Larry 16092 From: Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 5:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] When a being has laid down this body Howard: "Impermanence doesn't mean that "things change". It means that things don't remain. An event occurs, and then ceases. Later events arise conditioned by earlier ones. That's all - empty phenomena rolling on." L: Nice one Howard. Well said. Larry 16093 From: robmoult Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 5:44pm Subject: Is Light a Rupa? (Somewhat urgent - I have a class tomorrow) Hi All, Sorry for not participating lately, I am really busy preparing for this week's class on Rupa. I have been summarizing Nina's book, "The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena". Excellent reading... highly recommended. I note that the Visuddhimagga (XV, 39) states about the conditions for seeing: "Eye-consciousness arises due to eye-sensitivity, visible object, light and attention". Eye-consciousness is a citta and attention is a cetasika; both are nama. Eye-sensitivity and visible objects are rupa; they are clearly on the list of 28. But what about light? It is clearly not nama, but I can't find it on the list of 28 rupas. Light has all of the four Great Essentials; it has earth element (it is affected by gravity), it has water element (cohesion), it has fire element (it carries energy, can create temperature) and it has the air element (it moves). I notice that "sound" made it to the list of rupas, so why not "light"? Does anybody have any ideas? I have my class tomorrow morning, so I need an answer today if possible. Thanks, Rob M :-) 16094 From: Paul Ajahn Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 6:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] studying Pali, to Chris. try this http://www.accesstoinsight.org/glossary.html --- Nina van Gorkom ªº¶l¥ó¤º®e¡G> Dear Christine, > > I also have Buddhadatta's dict, small and handy to > get around fast. On the > first p. I write the letters in the Pali > alphabetical order and then the > page no. behind, for quick reference. > Self teaching is fine, your own pace. Warder lets > you read already at about > Ch 18, makes it interesting. > Success, > Nina. > op 03-10-2002 13:44 schreef christine_forsyth op > cforsyth@v...: > > > > > I do have Warder (3rd Edition), de Silva, and Rhys > David's and > > Stede's Pali-English dictionary. Perhaps I'll give > it a try and work > > through de Silva's Lessons first, then go on to > those by Horner. I > > hope I could be as diligent as you are, though I > think languages > > require a certain talent as well. ( I hate to > admit this, but I > > experience difficulty finding my way around the > P-E Dictionary ...). > > 16095 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 7:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation and Satipatthana Hi Larry, This is an interesting remark. "I think practice is different from samma-ditthi. Whatever works." It was a trigger for a lot of reflection for me.... I don't think one can excise the necessity for samma-ditthi out of any part of Buddhist practice. You say, "Whatever works." Works for what? How do you know its 'working'? I first thought of practicing "meditation" for peace of mind. Before I found a group, I found a tape by a psychologist. Not a mention of Buddhism or of anything further. I was zoned out and relaxed, good tempered, calm... i.e. it "worked" in producing that feeling. (I became a little addicted to the peace and calm). Then I found it important to know what it was I was practicing for. Finding happiness, peace or calmness? But what exactly is true happiness, true peace or true calmness? How do you find it? Is it ending suffering? But what exactly is suffering? And who explained it and told of how to eradicate it? I spent many years looking for the first three and trying to get rid of the last one. Made no difference whatsoever, except ultimately decreasing happiness and increasing suffering. Today, I would still get confused, except for the Teachings in the texts. Don't you think it important not to confuse the 'means' with the 'aim'? For me nowadays, I need a Teacher who can answer my questions, and tell me how to have understanding of what suffering is, its cessation, and the path leading to this cessation myself. In the absence of that Teacher, I rely on Admirable Friends and the instructional lessons the Teacher left behind to describe how to travel, the landmarks to look out for on the Way, and the dangers, mistakes and scenic sidetracks to avoid. I don't think sammaditthi can be set aside while we take a special 'time-out' for a practice. Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi say, in The Discourse on Right View - The Sammaditthi Sutta and its Commentary: http://web.mit.edu/stclair/www/sammaditthi.html "As its title suggests, the subject of the Sammaditthi Sutta is right view. The analysis of right view undertaken in the sutta brings us to the very core of the Dhamma, since right view constitutes the correct understanding of the central teachings of the Buddha, the teachings which confer upon the Buddha's doctrine its own unique and distinctive stamp. Though the practice of right mindfulness has rightly been extolled as the crest jewel of the Buddha's teaching, it cannot be stressed strongly enough that the practice of mindfulness, or any other approach to meditation, only becomes an effective instrument of liberation to the extent that it is founded upon and guided by right view. Hence, to confirm the importance of right view, the Buddha places it at the very beginning of the Noble Eightfold Path. Elsewhere in the Suttas the Buddha calls right view the forerunner of the path ('pubbangama'), which gives direction and efficacy to the other seven path factors." metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Jon, > > You wrote: > > "There are many methods out there, all claiming to be correct ways of > 'practice'. The question one needs to ask in each case is the same > question you asked Rob M in a recent post in relation to sati, namely, > whether there is textual reference for it. I can't see any other way of > evaluating a 'practice', can you?" > > L: No, I think practice is different from samma-ditthi. Whatever works. > There are many "skillful means" that are helpful to different people at > different times, in different circumstances. The "Kun Sujin Effortless > Listening Method" of satipatthana for example. > > Larry 16096 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 7:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] studying Pali, to Chris. Thanks Paul, looks like it could be useful. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Paul Ajahn wrote: > try this > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/glossary.html > > --- Nina van Gorkom ªº¶l¥ó¤º®e¡G> > Dear Christine, > > > > I also have Buddhadatta's dict, small and handy to > > get around fast. On the > > first p. I write the letters in the Pali > > alphabetical order and then the > > page no. behind, for quick reference. > > Self teaching is fine, your own pace. Warder lets > > you read already at about > > Ch 18, makes it interesting. > > Success, > > Nina. 16097 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 7:33pm Subject: Re: Is Light a Rupa? (Somewhat urgent - I have a class tomorrow) Hi Rob M, I hope I'm not the only one up and about to try to help you. If so, you're done for.... :):) The totality of my input can only be - There are four paramatha dhammas (nama [citta and cetasika], rupa, and nibbana.) There are two kinds of reality - mental phenomena (nama) which experiences something; physical phenomena (rupa) which does not experience anything. As Light does not experience anything, I'd say it has to be rupa. But, as you know, I'm back here in the abhidhamma kindergarten corner... Maybe someone else will wander by... metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robmoult" wrote: > Hi All, > > Sorry for not participating lately, I am really busy preparing for > this week's class on Rupa. I have been summarizing Nina's book, "The > Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena". Excellent reading... > highly recommended. > > I note that the Visuddhimagga (XV, 39) states about the conditions > for seeing: "Eye-consciousness arises due to eye-sensitivity, > visible object, light and attention". > > Eye-consciousness is a citta and attention is a cetasika; both are > nama. Eye-sensitivity and visible objects are rupa; they are clearly > on the list of 28. > > But what about light? It is clearly not nama, but I can't find it on > the list of 28 rupas. > > Light has all of the four Great Essentials; it has earth element (it > is affected by gravity), it has water element (cohesion), it has > fire element (it carries energy, can create temperature) and it has > the air element (it moves). > > I notice that "sound" made it to the list of rupas, so why > not "light"? > > Does anybody have any ideas? > > I have my class tomorrow morning, so I need an answer today if > possible. > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) 16098 From: Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 7:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation and Satipatthana Hi Christine, I guess I should have said whatever works in impementing the 8-foldpath. The reason samma-ditthi is different from a practice is that it isn't relative to a particular individual"s understanding, though its explanation could be. Hmm, this is getting confusing. Larry 16099 From: Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 7:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Light a Rupa? (Somewhat urgent - I have a class tomorrow) Hi Rob, The list in CMA gives "visible form" as one of the Objective Phenomena under Concretely Produced Matter. IMO visible form = light. I think you might be equating visible form with tangibility. Consider a movie or the screen you are looking at. It's visible form, light. Unknown what a photon is. I suspect it is visible form. Do we have some kind of a machine that can see individual photons? Larry 16100 From: robmoult Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 8:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Light a Rupa? (Somewhat urgent - I have a class tomorrow) Hi Larry, That was my first guess as well. Here is my concern: 1. We have a tree leaf 2. Some photons come along and hit the tree leaf 3. All but the "green photons" are absorbed by the tree leaf, the green photons are reflected 4. Some of the reflected green photons impinge upon the eye- sensitivity (the story from here is the thought process) My concern was that if we equate "visible form" with the photons, what about the tree leaf? Is it out of the picture? I guess you are right; the tree leaf is already out of the picture. So the correct perspective when I am seeing is, "There are some coloured photons hitting my eye. Yes, those photons were conditioned by something elese (a tree leaf), but all that I am seeing is coloured photons.". Compare two situations: A. I am looking at a "real tree leaf" B. I am looking at a good photo of a "real tree leaf" In both cases, the same quality of photons are impinging on my eye and so, at that moment, there is no difference between the two situations. Of course at the next instant, when I look at the surroundings, I can figure out the difference between the two situations. I guess it is a lot easier to accept that there is "nothing behind visible objects other than empty photons" than it is to accept "there is nothing behind me other than empty processes" (i.e. anatta). Alright, I will work with this approach tomorrow, unless somebody else wants to improve on it. Sorry for jumping on-line without properly thinking through the issue. I probably could have figured this out by myself (but then again, why not share some of the fun!). Thanks, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Rob, > > The list in CMA gives "visible form" as one of the Objective Phenomena > under Concretely Produced Matter. IMO visible form = light. I think you > might be equating visible form with tangibility. Consider a movie or the > screen you are looking at. It's visible form, light. Unknown what a > photon is. I suspect it is visible form. Do we have some kind of a > machine that can see individual photons? > > Larry 16101 From: rikpa21 Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 10:18pm Subject: Some Musings on Children & the Dhamma Hello DSG'ers, Been a busy week here in Cambodia. Regarding Herman's query before about children, which I'd meant to reply to long ago, a few thoughts. Sarah & Jon & I talked about the various conditions and so on for living the lay life vs. the monastic life, and if children are a hindrance or not to the practice of the path, that the kamma for a child to be born depends on so many conditions it's impossible to know them all. This has been a big item of reflection the past few days for me, since we have formally gone through the adoption process for my wife's nephew (4 years old) to get him to a place he's not in danger of dying (he's been sick enough he's been to the hospital a lot near death in the past few months). So in addition to my wife being pregnant now, we have a new four- year old son. How this happened is strange. We came to Cambodia to apply for our 1 year Thai "B" visas and were given such a runaround by the embassy there, asking for documents the Thai government doesn't even require anymore according to my lawyer (we submitted the same paperwork for the "B" visas in Singapore without a hitch), and were treated very brusquely there to the point we couldn't get our "B" visas granted, and wound up having to (barely) get tourist visas just to return, blowing the entire 6 month process of creating a company, putting in investment capital, doing the bureacratic dance, and going "by the book" at great financial expense, all to stay totally within the bounds of all the laws and regulations to avoid this type of problem. What a difficult thing this has been--feeling like every door is slammed in our faces. We nearly lost everything we still have in Thailand due to the threat of not getting visas, and I have to refile and go through a process I don't know how to get straight at this point, since the rules seem to keep changing right under our feet (the exact same paperwork got 1-year visas in Penang or a friend just this week, ironically). After all of this, I was so frustrated with being given a seemingly impossible, endless runaround, being asked for documents that don't exist anymore and I have no way of obtaining, to satisfy a bureaucrat's request who seemed to treat us with downright scorn, even though we tried to be polite as possible attempting to explain our situation. Few things are the condition for dosa for me than bureacrats who care more about a piece of paper than real, living human beings who're just trying to live their lives in peace and maybe even a litle bit of good in this world. Truly feeling like "no good deed goes unpunished." Given all the uncertainty of whether we'd even be able to return to Thailand (thus costing us everything in terms of possessions, including probably my job, since my computer's there--a job which is still amazingly hanging in the balance of life or death as it has for the past 1 1/2 years now-I am at the point of just wishing to see it die already or maybe just plain quit due to the constant wondering if the next paycheck is the last, etc.). Given the situation, we made the decision to go to Angkor so my wife could meet her birth mother, who she hasn't seen in 13 years. What should have taken two days has now stretched out to two weeks, and then some. Also, given the visa company we used to get the US visas screwed up, costing us months in lost time now--time lost because of their mistakes to where even if we did get an immigrant visa to the US, we had to file for legal marriage under Cambodian law now given everything's changed, thus terminating a nearly year-long process and forcing a total restart. This was capped off by an extremely nasty email from the owner of the visa service, after I asked why they had not requested the appropriate documents in the first place, causing us to lose all this time due to their mistakes in not filing the appropriate papers. Amazingly, while we were here in signing the marriage documents, "kaboom", my sister-in-law came with her son--totally unexpectedly--and we signed the adoption papers for my wife's nephew (which we'd considered for a long time pending sufficient money, which we have, barely). It wasn't even a decision; it was literally dropped in our laps, and there was no choice in the matter. It's all just happened so fast, we've been running around like chickens with our heads cut off trying to get all the appropriate paperwork straight. Things got so intense, to the point of such intense frustration at feeling no matter what I do, I seem to keep getting the shaft, that the moment we need help, everyone vanishes into the ether--my father, mother, everyone. I got to the point of great dosa at this long-standing issue of feeling burned emotionally so many times, that just to concentrate the object of dosa in one place, all I could do was to burn holes in my arm with my lit cigarette just to experience a more concrete version of the intense burning of dosa arising in the mind due to what seemed like life falling apart in every which way, with no ability to control or influence anything, feeling in a position of total powerlessness to do anything at all to influence of resolve the endless stream of problems and obstacles that keep arising at every turn. But, as the Chinese fable goes (Sarah knows it) what may seem "bad" from one perspective may actually be a blessing in disguise (or vice versa), and to be able to take care of our newly-adopted son is a wonderful thing and could not have happened without the seemingly hostile treatment we received at the Thai embassy in Phnom Penh (all for lack of one piece of paper we can never obtain, ever). Has this been an opportunity for practice? Definitely. The only thing that has let me retain any sanity is the knowledge that these are mental projections arising in dependence on kamma, and to just try to let go and let go of wishing for anything at all, to not get upset when I don't get what I want (one of the Eight Worldly Concerns), to just let it ride, to recall again and again that this too is merely appearances. But goddammit the dukkha has been intense: feeling like the rug is constantly being yanked out from underneath, that every plan is thwarted, unexpectedly foiled in the most bizarre ways, obstacles appearing out of nowhere to throw everything into total chaos, and the most dificult, having to make hugely life-altering life/death-level decisions at a moment's notice without any (or barely any) information at all, having no idea what will happen in the next moment, unable to make any sort of plan. It was only my wife's repeated and sage pointing out to me that I'd been /wishing/ for wholesome results to come from some merit someplace to help, and to let go of all expectations because that was the source of my dukkha. That got me to stop burning my arm with my lit cigarette, at least, and reconsider everything from a different perspective--that our kamma brought us here to save her nephew's life. Also attempting as best as possible to recollect there is no control over vipaka, while burning through all of our money to help take care of my wife's family with a new motorbike for her sister to ease her heavy work burden, getting "new eyes" (glasses) for her uncle, who hasn't seen in years, and in general trying to help get her family sorted out as much as possible. I just sit here and regret, intensely, the three years I feel I've wasted on failing to formally practice mindfulness and concentration well enough to maintain equipoise throughout all of this, and resolve to set an example for our new son when we get home (however temporary or contingent that home may be given our uncertain Thai visa status now and the seemingly endless death-gasps of my company that refuses to die, even after four years without generating a dime in revenue, yet is still refusing to become real enough to survive). So trying to cover our bets in three directions with three different countries' conflicting requirements regarding living status, coordinating adoption, whatever, it's been exhausting and I'm ready to collapse, except I won't have the chance as my boss is cracking the whip to get back to work for something we haven't even been able to sell yet in four years of the most intense grinding work I've ever done. Just posting this message here among my DSG friends is therapeutic right now; it's really helping me get my mind back and focused in on the core of the Dhamma, what matters and what doesn't. Just the proximity to the Bayon and Angkor Wat and Prasat Ta Prohm, and especially seeing my wife's family, who have it much harder than we do, has been helpful in bringing the mind back to the raison d'etre for being here, to bring back to mind again and again that no matter how difficult the task or however seemingly impossible, this life is too short for anything else than the pursuit of full mastery of the Dhamma, that there is no other reason for this existence than to act as best as possible in the moment, without concern for the past or future. In all, this has certainly been about the most trying and dificult couple of weeks of my life, with no end in sight. Now, just to pratice mindfulness and concentration is the task, the only cure for this burning. So perhaps in answer to Herman's question, I can say that there has not been a better opportunity for practice than now, with seemingly endless and intractable obstacles, training in yet more patience by resolving not to become upset at having what seems like every door slammed in our faces, seeing everyone vanish the moment any kind of help is needed in spite of trying my best (as admittedly imperfect as it is) to try and help others whenever the opportunity presents itself. Eath said it best to me: cut off any hope for results and just do the right thing, right now, this moment, and forget eveything else, because in the end, there's nothing else to be done. I have also found it most helpful during this time to bring to mind again and again the inspiration provided by the Buddha and the Bodhisattvas, to keep going, no matter how many difficulties or obstacles arise, as these are mere mental projections arising in dependence on kamma, and we can't do a damned thing about vipaka anyway. As a proverb goes, if you can do something about the problem, why get upset? If you can't do anything about the problem, why get upset? I hope everyone is well, and that all being may have hapiness and cause of happiness and be free from suffering and cause of sufering, Erik 16102 From: dragonwriter2 Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 10:21pm Subject: Gandhari Canon http://chronicle.com/free/v49/i06/06a01801.htm 16103 From: robmoult Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 11:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Light a Rupa? (Somewhat urgent - I have a class tomorrow) Hi All, One final question; if visible form = light, then why did the Vishuddhi Magga XV list them as separate conditions for eye consciousness? Any theories? Thanks, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Larry, > > That was my first guess as well. Here is my concern: > 1. We have a tree leaf > 2. Some photons come along and hit the tree leaf > 3. All but the "green photons" are absorbed by the tree leaf, the > green photons are reflected > 4. Some of the reflected green photons impinge upon the eye- > sensitivity (the story from here is the thought process) > > My concern was that if we equate "visible form" with the photons, > what about the tree leaf? Is it out of the picture? > > I guess you are right; the tree leaf is already out of the picture. > So the correct perspective when I am seeing is, "There are some > coloured photons hitting my eye. Yes, those photons were conditioned > by something elese (a tree leaf), but all that I am seeing is > coloured photons.". > > Compare two situations: > A. I am looking at a "real tree leaf" > B. I am looking at a good photo of a "real tree leaf" > > In both cases, the same quality of photons are impinging on my eye > and so, at that moment, there is no difference between the two > situations. Of course at the next instant, when I look at the > surroundings, I can figure out the difference between the two > situations. > > I guess it is a lot easier to accept that there is "nothing behind > visible objects other than empty photons" than it is to > accept "there is nothing behind me other than empty processes" (i.e. > anatta). > > Alright, I will work with this approach tomorrow, unless somebody > else wants to improve on it. > > Sorry for jumping on-line without properly thinking through the > issue. I probably could have figured this out by myself (but then > again, why not share some of the fun!). > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > > Hi Rob, > > > > The list in CMA gives "visible form" as one of the Objective > Phenomena > > under Concretely Produced Matter. IMO visible form = light. I > think you > > might be equating visible form with tangibility. Consider a movie > or the > > screen you are looking at. It's visible form, light. Unknown what a > > photon is. I suspect it is visible form. Do we have some kind of a > > machine that can see individual photons? > > > > Larry 16104 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Oct 5, 2002 0:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Musings on Children & the Dhamma Erik I was very sorry to read about your unfortunate experiences recently and the setback it has given to your plans. Best wishes for a smoother passage from here on through a bureaucratic maze that you are now trying to negotiate. And don't forget that the presently arising frustration, or other dosa of whatever kind, can be an object of awareness at any time, since it has its own characteristic! Jon --- rikpa21 wrote: > > Hello DSG'ers, > > Been a busy week here in Cambodia. Regarding Herman's query before > about children, which I'd meant to reply to long ago, a few thoughts. > > Sarah & Jon & I talked about the various conditions and so on for > living the lay life vs. the monastic life, and if children are a > hindrance or not to the practice of the path, that the kamma for a > child to be born depends on so many conditions it's impossible to > know them all. > > This has been a big item of reflection the past few days for me, > since we have formally gone through the adoption process for my > wife's nephew (4 years old) to get him to a place he's not in danger > of dying (he's been sick enough he's been to the hospital a lot near > death in the past few months). ... > Just posting this message here among my DSG friends is therapeutic > right now; it's really helping me get my mind back and focused in on > the core of the Dhamma, what matters and what doesn't. Just the > proximity to the Bayon and Angkor Wat and Prasat Ta Prohm, and > especially seeing my wife's family, who have it much harder than we > do, has been helpful in bringing the mind back to the raison d'etre > for being here, to bring back to mind again and again that no matter > how difficult the task or however seemingly impossible, this life is > too short for anything else than the pursuit of full mastery of the > Dhamma, that there is no other reason for this existence than to act > as best as possible in the moment, without concern for the past or > future. In all, this has certainly been about the most trying and > dificult couple of weeks of my life, with no end in sight. Now, just > to pratice mindfulness and concentration is the task, the only cure > for this burning. > > So perhaps in answer to Herman's question, I can say that there has > not been a better opportunity for practice than now, with seemingly > endless and intractable obstacles, training in yet more patience by > resolving not to become upset at having what seems like every door > slammed in our faces, seeing everyone vanish the moment any kind of > help is needed in spite of trying my best (as admittedly imperfect > as it is) to try and help others whenever the opportunity presents > itself. Eath said it best to me: cut off any hope for results and > just do the right thing, right now, this moment, and forget > eveything else, because in the end, there's nothing else to be done. > > I have also found it most helpful during this time to bring to mind > again and again the inspiration provided by the Buddha and the > Bodhisattvas, to keep going, no matter how many difficulties or > obstacles arise, as these are mere mental projections arising in > dependence on kamma, and we can't do a damned thing about vipaka > anyway. As a proverb goes, if you can do something about the > problem, why get upset? If you can't do anything about the problem, > why get upset? > > I hope everyone is well, and that all being may have hapiness and > cause of happiness and be free from suffering and cause of sufering, > Erik 16105 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Oct 5, 2002 0:40am Subject: Re: Some Musings on Children & the Dhamma Hi Erik, Even though we wish you were in much happier circumstances, it is lovely to hear from you right now. Thank you for sharing your recent experience - my heart goes out to you and your family over the uncertainty, lack of control and the unnecessary, inefficient hindering you have had to endure from those who should have smoothed the way. It is particularly galling for someone like you who is gentle, caring and competent to go through such a frustrating time and be treated with such seeming indifference. How heart warming though to hear that even in the midst of your difficulties, you could give love and protection to your new son....fortunate little one!...and encompass your wife's sister and uncle within the boundaries of your metta and compassion. The cigarette burns are understandable - this pain was a choice, provided a focus, was concrete - real, and could be dealt with and resolved. I would have begun to wonder if I was invisible, unreal, or worthless and felt such a sense of frustration in your situation. Though possibly a little worrying to loved ones, I hope the burns were useful, at that time, as a sort of catharsis. When times are hard, I have found it most helpful to write a diary, a sort of a 'trip through hell' diary. At the end of each week it builds confidence and endurance to look back over what you have survived, how you coped, and how things really do change. Your wife sounds like a precious, wise little owl - she deserves listening to. Keeping your mind on the Dhamma and mindfully practicing as much as possible is excellent, and a great example to us all. Our life IS our practice, but how often do we let it flow by like a dream. unconscious of hours of it in any day.... in a happy, bored, or unhappy haze. When this is over, and resolved, as it WILL be Eric, you will be so much the richer within your personal relationships, your practice, and your insights into the Teachings. Some others of us are also having tough times at the moment - your example of fortitude and caring, and especially of continuing to practice with resoluteness through this period has meant more than you will ever know. with much admiration and metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "rikpa21" wrote: > > Hello DSG'ers, > > Been a busy week here in Cambodia. 16106 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Oct 5, 2002 5:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Light a Rupa? (Somewhat urgent - I have a class tomorrow) Rob M I don't know anything much about this, except I know that light is not the same as visible form (aka visible object). Visible form/object is the rupa that is experienced by seeing consciusness. Light is not a rupa, but is still a necessary condition for v/o to be experienced by seeing consciusness. Sorry I can't give you more to go on. Jon --- robmoult wrote: > Hi All, > > One final question; if visible form = light, then why did the > Vishuddhi Magga XV list them as separate conditions for eye > consciousness? > > Any theories? > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) 16107 From: robmoult Date: Sat Oct 5, 2002 5:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Light a Rupa? (Somewhat urgent - I have a class tomorrow) Hi Jon (and All), Why is light not the same as "visible object"? The Atthasalini (II, Book II, Ch III, 318) and the Visuddhimagga (XIV, 54) both give the following definition of visible object: Visible object has the characteristic of striking the eye, the function of being the object of eye-sense consciousness, the manifestation of being the field of visual cognition and the four Great Elements as proximate cause. What else is it that strikes the eye if not light? Certainly not the tree leaf that reflected the light into the eye. Bit this still leaves the question as to why the Visuddhimagga XV, 39 listed both light and visible object as conditions for eye consciousness. One possible explanation is that "light" refers to the generic stream of photons before being reflected from the tree leaf, while "visible object" is the specific stream of photons after being reflected by the tree leaf. The floor is still open for comments.... Thanks, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob M > > I don't know anything much about this, except I know that light is not the > same as visible form (aka visible object). Visible form/object is the > rupa that is experienced by seeing consciusness. Light is not a rupa, but > is still a necessary condition for v/o to be experienced by seeing > consciusness. > > Sorry I can't give you more to go on. > > Jon > > --- robmoult wrote: > Hi All, > > > > One final question; if visible form = light, then why did the > > Vishuddhi Magga XV list them as separate conditions for eye > > consciousness? > > > > Any theories? > > > > Thanks, > > Rob M :-) 16108 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Oct 5, 2002 7:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Light a Rupa? (Somewhat urgent - I have a class tomorrow) Rob M --- robmoult wrote: > Hi Jon (and All), > > Why is light not the same as "visible object"? Is light what is seen by eye-consciousness? If not, it's not visible object. Light (alone) would not yield shape and form on analysis (by thinking). Jon > The Atthasalini (II, Book II, Ch III, 318) and the Visuddhimagga > (XIV, 54) both give the following definition of visible object: > > Visible object has the characteristic of striking the eye, the > function of being the object of eye-sense consciousness, the > manifestation of being the field of visual cognition and the four > Great Elements as proximate cause. > > What else is it that strikes the eye if not light? Certainly not the > tree leaf that reflected the light into the eye. > > Bit this still leaves the question as to why the Visuddhimagga XV, > 39 listed both light and visible object as conditions for eye > consciousness. > > One possible explanation is that "light" refers to the generic > stream of photons before being reflected from the tree leaf, > while "visible object" is the specific stream of photons after being > reflected by the tree leaf. > > The floor is still open for comments.... > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Rob M > > > > I don't know anything much about this, except I know that light is > not the > > same as visible form (aka visible object). Visible form/object is > the > > rupa that is experienced by seeing consciusness. Light is not a > rupa, but > > is still a necessary condition for v/o to be experienced by seeing > > consciusness. > > > > Sorry I can't give you more to go on. > > > > Jon > > > > --- robmoult wrote: > Hi All, > > > > > > One final question; if visible form = light, then why did the > > > Vishuddhi Magga XV list them as separate conditions for eye > > > consciousness? > > > > > > Any theories? > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Rob M :-) 16109 From: robmoult Date: Sat Oct 5, 2002 7:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Light a Rupa? (Somewhat urgent - I have a class tomorrow) Hi Jon, What appears at the back of the retina is simply a pattern of light; the mind conceptualizes this into shape and form. Light must be in a pattern for a shape to be conceptualized. The pattern is conditioned on what (tree leaf) reflected the light into the eye-sensitivity. All the same, what impinges is light, not the tree leaf. I am not totally comfortable with the idea that visible object = light, mainly because I can't find any author who has made that statement. On the other hand, I can't think of any other explanation that fits with the description in the Atthasalini and Visuddhimagga. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob M > > --- robmoult wrote: > Hi Jon (and All), > > > > Why is light not the same as "visible object"? > > Is light what is seen by eye-consciousness? If not, it's not visible > object. Light (alone) would not yield shape and form on analysis (by > thinking). > > Jon > > > The Atthasalini (II, Book II, Ch III, 318) and the Visuddhimagga > > (XIV, 54) both give the following definition of visible object: > > > > Visible object has the characteristic of striking the eye, the > > function of being the object of eye-sense consciousness, the > > manifestation of being the field of visual cognition and the four > > Great Elements as proximate cause. > > > > What else is it that strikes the eye if not light? Certainly not the > > tree leaf that reflected the light into the eye. > > > > Bit this still leaves the question as to why the Visuddhimagga XV, > > 39 listed both light and visible object as conditions for eye > > consciousness. > > > > One possible explanation is that "light" refers to the generic > > stream of photons before being reflected from the tree leaf, > > while "visible object" is the specific stream of photons after being > > reflected by the tree leaf. > > > > The floor is still open for comments.... > > > > Thanks, > > Rob M :-) > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > > Rob M > > > > > > I don't know anything much about this, except I know that light is > > not the > > > same as visible form (aka visible object). Visible form/object is > > the > > > rupa that is experienced by seeing consciusness. Light is not a > > rupa, but > > > is still a necessary condition for v/o to be experienced by seeing > > > consciusness. > > > > > > Sorry I can't give you more to go on. > > > > > > Jon > > > > > > --- robmoult wrote: > Hi All, > > > > > > > > One final question; if visible form = light, then why did the > > > > Vishuddhi Magga XV list them as separate conditions for eye > > > > consciousness? > > > > > > > > Any theories? > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Rob M :-) 16110 From: Sarah Date: Sat Oct 5, 2002 7:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Light a Rupa? (Somewhat urgent - I have a class tomorrow) Hi Rob M, --- robmoult wrote: > Hi Jon (and All), > > Why is light not the same as "visible object"? .... Because visible object is a rupa, that which is seen and light isn't. If the act of seeing is considered by way of aggregates, light isn't mentioned. Similarly for bases or elements, all of which are classifying the act by way of realities. One example by way of elements from Sammohavinodani transl 1760: "Likewise the eye is the eye element; the visible datum is the visible datum element; the seeing is the eye-consciousness element; the state associated therewith beginning with feeling are the mental-datum element. In this way "looking towards and looking away" is stated in terms of these four elements. Herein, what single person looks towards, what person looks away?" However, when we consider the various conditions, concepts can also be certain conditions. For example, concept or reality can be object condition (arammana paccaya). Anything can be an object of experience. Likewise for decisive support condition (upanissaya paccaya). Under natural decisive support condition (pakatupanissaya paccaya), friends, home, climate and diet can act as condition. In the Satipatthana Sutta, we read about the favourable climate for the Kurus and we all know about the value of wise friends here. So following the sections discussing the process of seeing by way of aggregates, bases and elements (quoted), the text above continues (1761): "Likewise the eye is support condition; the visible datum is object condition; adverting is proximity, contiguity, decisive-support, absence and disappearance conditions; LIGHT is decisive support condition; feeling etc are conascence and other conditions. Thus is "looking towards and looking away" stated in terms of these conditions. Herein what single person looks towards, what person looks away?" **** Rob, hope this helps a little and your lecture goes well. It's late here for me (after teaching all day ), so I hope I'm not saying anything silly in my rather dopey state. We're also off hiking first thing tomorrow, so I doubt we'll be able to add anything else. Sarah ====== > > The Atthasalini (II, Book II, Ch III, 318) and the Visuddhimagga > (XIV, 54) both give the following definition of visible object: > > Visible object has the characteristic of striking the eye, the > function of being the object of eye-sense consciousness, the > manifestation of being the field of visual cognition and the four > Great Elements as proximate cause. > > What else is it that strikes the eye if not light? Certainly not the > tree leaf that reflected the light into the eye. > > Bit this still leaves the question as to why the Visuddhimagga XV, > 39 listed both light and visible object as conditions for eye > consciousness. 16111 From: robmoult Date: Sat Oct 5, 2002 8:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Light a Rupa? (Somewhat urgent - I have a class tomorrow) Hi All, Sorry, I am still confused. If we look for analogies for the other senses, we see that "sound" is a rupas as well. If "sound" makes the list, why doesn't "light"? I guess for the moment, I am still sticking to visible object = light, but I am keen to hear anybody else's ideas to help me "see" more clearly. Jon and Sarah are going to bed (I really appreciate their attempts to disentangle me)... is there somebody in another time zone who wants to take a stab at this? Thanks, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Hi Rob M, > --- robmoult wrote: > Hi Jon (and All), > > > > Why is light not the same as "visible object"? > .... > Because visible object is a rupa, that which is seen and light isn't. > > If the act of seeing is considered by way of aggregates, light isn't > mentioned. Similarly for bases or elements, all of which are classifying > the act by way of realities. One example by way of elements from > Sammohavinodani transl 1760: > > "Likewise the eye is the eye element; the visible datum is the visible > datum element; the seeing is the eye-consciousness element; the state > associated therewith beginning with feeling are the mental-datum element. > In this way "looking towards and looking away" is stated in terms of these > four elements. Herein, what single person looks towards, what person > looks away?" > > However, when we consider the various conditions, concepts can also be > certain conditions. For example, concept or reality can be object > condition (arammana paccaya). Anything can be an object of experience. > Likewise for decisive support condition (upanissaya paccaya). Under > natural decisive support condition (pakatupanissaya paccaya), friends, > home, climate and diet can act as condition. In the Satipatthana Sutta, we > read about the favourable climate for the Kurus and we all know about the > value of wise friends here. So following the sections discussing the > process of seeing by way of aggregates, bases and elements (quoted), the > text above continues (1761): > > "Likewise the eye is support condition; the visible datum is object > condition; adverting is proximity, contiguity, decisive-support, absence > and disappearance conditions; LIGHT is decisive support condition; > feeling etc are conascence and other conditions. Thus is "looking towards > and looking away" stated in terms of these conditions. Herein what single > person looks towards, what person looks away?" > **** > > Rob, hope this helps a little and your lecture goes well. It's late here > for me (after teaching all day ), so I hope I'm not saying anything silly > in my rather dopey state. We're also off hiking first thing tomorrow, so I > doubt we'll be able to add anything else. > > Sarah > ====== > > > > The Atthasalini (II, Book II, Ch III, 318) and the Visuddhimagga > > (XIV, 54) both give the following definition of visible object: > > > > Visible object has the characteristic of striking the eye, the > > function of being the object of eye-sense consciousness, the > > manifestation of being the field of visual cognition and the four > > Great Elements as proximate cause. > > > > What else is it that strikes the eye if not light? Certainly not the > > tree leaf that reflected the light into the eye. > > > > Bit this still leaves the question as to why the Visuddhimagga XV, > > 39 listed both light and visible object as conditions for eye > > consciousness. 16112 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sat Oct 5, 2002 9:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Light a Rupa? (Somewhat urgent - I have a class tomorrow) Hi Rob, According to the Mahatika commentary on this passage, the 'light' (aaloka) refers to a light source such as sunlight. Here's what the commentary says: aalokaadayo ti aaloko naama suuriyaalokaadi. tassa suttantanayena upanissayabhaavo veditabbo, eva.m sesaani pi. -- ed. Dr. Rewatadhamma, p. 1097 My translation: "Light, etc.," -- 'light', namely, is the light of the sun, etc. The decisive support condition of this should be understood by the suttanta method, so also for the remaining (aperture, air, etc.). The reference to 'the suttanta method' suggests that it belongs to the conventional way of teaching in contrast to the Abhidhamma method. Note also the following in Sarah's reply: "LIGHT is decisive support condition" from the Vibhanga commentary. I hope this is of some help. Best wishes, Jim > I note that the Visuddhimagga (XV, 39) states about the conditions > for seeing: "Eye-consciousness arises due to eye-sensitivity, > visible object, light and attention". > > Eye-consciousness is a citta and attention is a cetasika; both are > nama. Eye-sensitivity and visible objects are rupa; they are clearly > on the list of 28. > > But what about light? It is clearly not nama, but I can't find it on > the list of 28 rupas. > > Light has all of the four Great Essentials; it has earth element (it > is affected by gravity), it has water element (cohesion), it has > fire element (it carries energy, can create temperature) and it has > the air element (it moves). > > I notice that "sound" made it to the list of rupas, so why > not "light"? > > Does anybody have any ideas? > > I have my class tomorrow morning, so I need an answer today if > possible. > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) 16113 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Oct 5, 2002 10:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Memory and Definition of Sati op 03-10-2002 09:50 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: Dear Rob M, Sarah and all, I checked my Thai edition of the Co to the sutta: the Papa~ncasuudanii. The words: The Pali for Discrimination is: nepakka, penetration. The Book of Analysis (249) states: In the Co to the sutta : There is a question, why pa~n~naa is here together with sati.The answer: N: This remark is worth considering. Do we want many moments of sati? But what is the use if pa~n~naa is lacking? This reminds us to consider cause and effect when acting in this or that way. The Co goes on: < the words done long ago (carikata.mpi): the development of the practice, namely, the eighty religious duties (vatta), such as the duties of the shrine terrace, which someone does himself or which others do long ago, through bodily action.> N: See Vis. IV, 60: these include also duties to teachers, to visitors, etc. The CO: The Co gives examples of extending merit, anumodana, meetings, teaching, etc. The words remembering and recollecting are explained in English in my PTs edition: saritaa, remembering once, and anusaritaa, remembering again and again. The Co speaks again about kamma through body and speech, explaining that kamma through the body done long ago, means, through body-intimation ( the rupa which is kayavi~n~natti) and kamma through speech, done long ago, means, through speech-intimation (the rupa which is vaci-vi~n~natti). It explains that there are ruupa, citta and cetasika, thus, rupa dhammas and arupa dhammas: there should be awareness of them as: they arise thus, they fall away thus. Here sati as factor of enlightenment has been explained, according to the co. It states that by this kind of sati the ariyan disciple knows: Nina. Rob M wrote: >> Sekha Sutta (The Disciple in Higher Learning) M53.16: "He has >> mindfulness; he possesses the highest mindfulness and skill; he >> recalls and recollects what was done long ago and spoken long ago." >> >> Bhikkhu Bodhi's commentary on this verse is as follows, "Here the >> text explains sati, mindfulness, by reference to its original >> meaning of memory. The relationship between the two senses of sati – >> memory and attentiveness – may be formulated thus: keen >> attentiveness to the present forms the basis for an accurate memory >> of the past. MA takes the mention of sati here to imply all seven >> factors of enlightenment, among which it is first." > ***** Sarah: I’ve checked the sutta too. Just a few comments (but not answers): > > 1. The reference describes those ‘in higher training’, i.e those who have > attained to stages of enlightenment. > 2. Also it refers to those who have attained all 4 jhanas. > 3. The commentary tells us this quote refers to the bhojjhangas > (enlightenment factors). > 4. In the section on bhojangas in the Satipatthana Sutta and com. there is > no reference to recollection of the past. I wonder if this refers to > insight being coupled with jhanas? 16114 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Oct 5, 2002 10:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Light a Rupa? (Somewhat urgent - I have a class tomorrow) Dear Rob M. See atth: 317: Visible object is just coloired appearance`'; or it shines...And further: the pair of terms shady and glowing have been mutually divided. Light and dim likewise. Dhsg, 617: low, high, shady, glowing, light, dim... disc of moon. Conventional language is used to explain that colours are not neutral, but different. Once A. Sujin explained: we can call it colour or light, it does not matter, it just appears through eyes. Also the conditions for seeing: in some places light is not mentioned, in other texts it has been mentioned as a condiiton. To show: when the room is light there are conditions for seeing and then discerning different objects. When the room is pitch dark it is not so. A way of explaining and we should not make this too complicated. I hope this helps a little. Success. Nina. op 05-10-2002 14:32 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > Hi Jon (and All), > > Why is light not the same as "visible object"? > > The Atthasalini (II, Book II, Ch III, 318) and the Visuddhimagga > (XIV, 54) both give the following definition of visible object: > > Visible object has the characteristic of striking the eye, the > function of being the object of eye-sense consciousness, the > manifestation of being the field of visual cognition and the four > Great Elements as proximate cause. > > What else is it that strikes the eye if not light? Certainly not the > tree leaf that reflected the light into the eye. > > Bit this still leaves the question as to why the Visuddhimagga XV, > 39 listed both light and visible object as conditions for eye > consciousness. > 16115 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Oct 5, 2002 8:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Light a Rupa? Rob M --- robmoult wrote: > Hi Jon, > > What appears at the back of the retina is simply a pattern of light; > the mind conceptualizes this into shape and form. > > Light must be in a pattern for a shape to be conceptualized. The > pattern is conditioned on what (tree leaf) reflected the light into > the eye-sensitivity. All the same, what impinges is light, not the > tree leaf. Here you are using 'light' in the scientific sense of the word, I think. In our context, however, I see light as being used in the sense of brightness, ie, the opposite of darkness. If there is total darkeness, no seeing can take place, even though the other 3 factors may be potentially 'available'. Jon PS Do let us know how the class went! > I am not totally comfortable with the idea that visible object = > light, mainly because I can't find any author who has made that > statement. On the other hand, I can't think of any other explanation > that fits with the description in the Atthasalini and Visuddhimagga. > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) 16116 From: robmoult Date: Sat Oct 5, 2002 11:33pm Subject: Today's Class Hi All, I presented the discussion of 'visible object' and 'light' in class as an unresolved issue. The class was a little fast paced, because I wanted to cover all 28 rupas in one class. I think it came across as a little technical, not one of the more interesting classes as it was difficult to relate much of the material to daily life. Each week, we pass around a donation tin and each month, our class donates US$130 to get Dhamma books printed. This month, I suggested that we donate to a group called "WAVE" and the class agreed. I went to the WAVE office and guess what book they are planning to reprint next? Soma Thera's, "The Way of Mindfulness". The printing will be done in a couple of months and everybody in the class should get a copy. I think that the day that I hand out the books will be an opportune time to study the Sutta (again) in detail in my class. Of course, I will be drawing heavily on the DSG comments over the next month or two for my preparation. I am really looking forward to next week. The subject will be "Realities and Concepts". I will summarize Khun Sujin's book as a handout and also extract stuff from "Concept and Reality in Early Buddhist Thought" by Bhikkhu Nanananda (a more technical piece). Thanks, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob M > > --- robmoult wrote: > Hi Jon, > > > > What appears at the back of the retina is simply a pattern of light; > > the mind conceptualizes this into shape and form. > > > > Light must be in a pattern for a shape to be conceptualized. The > > pattern is conditioned on what (tree leaf) reflected the light into > > the eye-sensitivity. All the same, what impinges is light, not the > > tree leaf. > > Here you are using 'light' in the scientific sense of the word, I think. > In our context, however, I see light as being used in the sense of > brightness, ie, the opposite of darkness. If there is total darkeness, no > seeing can take place, even though the other 3 factors may be potentially > 'available'. > > Jon > > PS Do let us know how the class went! > > > I am not totally comfortable with the idea that visible object = > > light, mainly because I can't find any author who has made that > > statement. On the other hand, I can't think of any other explanation > > that fits with the description in the Atthasalini and Visuddhimagga. > > > > Thanks, > > Rob M :-) 16117 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Oct 6, 2002 1:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Musings on Children & the Dhamma Erik Now that I've read your post more closely, I can see what a harrowing experience it must have been for you. As you point out, Erik, bad news is an aspect of the 8 worldly conditions, and these are conditions from which no-one (not even the enlightened being) is free while still within samsara. We sometimes forget, however, that the hearing of bad news is not the same thing as akusala vipaka, since it may or may not involve unpleasant experience through one of the sense-doors. Mostly, the unpleasantness we 'experience' at these times is in our reaction to what we have heard -- its meaning and the consequences we attach to that meaning -- and this reaction is a reflection of our accumulated tendencies, driven not by anything to do with the intrinsic nature of the sense-door experience itself, but by our expectations and fears and the fact that we view life very much from the perspective of our own interests. Experiences such as you and Eath have been through lately are indeed a test of one's accumulated kusala in general, and patience and understanding in particular. (Of course, mostly we fail the test, but that is only to be expected ;-).) I think the value of patience is easy enough to see. But more important, in my view, is understanding. Without understanding, one sees the bad news as misfortune already experienced, as something that has already impacted adversely on oneself and one's loved-ones. Only with developed understanding can the 'bad' news/experience be seen as it truly is, merely different moments of empty phenomena rolling on, no different from those before it or those coming after it. Knowing this in theory is one thing, and our past reflections on this theme and on the inevitability of good and bad vipaka can be of support at such times, but it is the understanding of the characteristics of dhammas, based on the direct experience of those dhammas, that allows one truly to not be disturbed by such events. It might be tempting to think that developed concentration would be the key to coping better in such circumstances. But the picture we get from reading texts such as the Visuddhimagga is somewhat different: worldly concerns and distractions such as these are a hindrance to the development of samatha, and a threat to its maintenance once developed, and that's why it is said that a person aspiring to highly developed samatha can only succeed if the external circumstances (as well as the person's accumulated tendencies) are appropriate. The understanding of the true nature of realities is one's best friend in any adversity, because only by that means does one slowly weaken the deeply rooted, unwholesome accumulated tendencies (kilesa), and at the same time develop the patience, that is necessary if one is to remain truly unperturbed by the worldly conditions. Erik, I'm sure it's only a matter of time before things pick up again. Just keep in mind that when the good news comes, the reaction is probably going to be much the same in terms of the mix of kusala and akusala, but that the feeling will be pleasant feeling instead of the unpleasant feeling of this present experience (and so, perhaps, less likely to be seen for what it truly is ;-)). Jon --- rikpa21 wrote: > > Hello DSG'ers, > > Been a busy week here in Cambodia. Regarding Herman's query before > about children, which I'd meant to reply to long ago, a few thoughts. > > Sarah & Jon & I talked about the various conditions and so on for > living the lay life vs. the monastic life, and if children are a > hindrance or not to the practice of the path, that the kamma for a > child to be born depends on so many conditions it's impossible to > know them all. > > This has been a big item of reflection the past few days for me, > since we have formally gone through the adoption process for my > wife's nephew (4 years old) to get him to a place he's not in danger > of dying (he's been sick enough he's been to the hospital a lot near > death in the past few months). ... > I have also found it most helpful during this time to bring to mind > again and again the inspiration provided by the Buddha and the > Bodhisattvas, to keep going, no matter how many difficulties or > obstacles arise, as these are mere mental projections arising in > dependence on kamma, and we can't do a damned thing about vipaka > anyway. As a proverb goes, if you can do something about the > problem, why get upset? If you can't do anything about the problem, > why get upset? > > I hope everyone is well, and that all being may have hapiness and > cause of happiness and be free from suffering and cause of sufering, > Erik 16118 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Oct 6, 2002 1:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Your duty is the contemplation" Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Jon, do you see any difference between the knowledge mentioned in the > Satipatthana Sutta and the insight (vipassana) that is usually mentioned > as arising after jhana? > > Larry I'm not sure I've understood your question correctly, Larry, but let me try and answer it this way. The terms 'satipatthana' and 'vipassana' usually refer to the development of insight into the true nature of things, and this is the same insight no matter in whom it is developed or under what circumstances, to my underestanding. Jon 16119 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Oct 6, 2002 1:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 4, Intro cont Larry You say: <> Any textual reference for this? I guess our look at the Satipatthana Sutta may yield an answer at some stage. My understanding is that any moment of kusala has its own characteristic as a kusala dhamma, and that this characteristic can be known if panna of the appropriate level arises. Without that knowledge, however, any idea about the kusala nature of a given moment or situation (e.g., 'I'm doing X, this must be kusala') is just speculation. Jon --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Jon, > > Thanks for the link and thanks to Nina for writing it. This accords > nicely with Rob's quotes and adds something on the relationship between > sati and vipassana. Sati is the remembrance of vipassana applied to the > object. If I had read it before it had never stuck in my mind that sati > is the remembrance of kusala; in this case the kusala of seeing anicca, > dukkha, anatta, or, on a mundane level, at least the idea of anicca, > dukkha, anatta. > > There has always been a lingering frustration with not experiencing a > genuine insight while practicing mindfulness of breathing. Any thoughts > that may have arisen, even thoughts about dhamma, I had dismissed as > distractions. I think this added dimension of memory will definitely > perk up the practice and make it more meaningful. Plus, I think the mere > activity of sitting there in the meditation posture cultivating alert > tranqulity is kusala and as such is an integral part of the sati > proceedure. I'm sure I have been told this before, but it has always > gone in one ear and out the other. > > Larry 16120 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Oct 6, 2002 1:20am Subject: Re: Some Musings on Children & the Dhamma --- Dear Erik, I was touched by your letter telling us about your new life and the help you are giving and the responsibilities you now have. I spoke to Ivan (thirty years in Thailand) about your visa problems and he told me this is so common. One of the british guys at his office has just been turned down for a work visa and had to get a one month tourist visa (has been living in thailand for 2 or 3 years)- no good reason why he was turned down. The government do what they can to make things hard as there are so many farang in thailand and the authorities have no easy (or intelligent) way of screening the good from the bad. You wrote: > """Has this been an opportunity for practice? Definitely. The only > thing that has let me retain any sanity is the knowledge that these > are mental projections arising in dependence on kamma, and to just > try to let go and let go of wishing for anything at all, to not get > upset when I don't get what I want (one of the Eight Worldly > Concerns), to just let it ride, to recall again and again that this > too is merely appearances. But goddammit the dukkha has been > intense: feeling like """" So encourging that you see the Dhamma side of these events as I think it is thammada (thai for ordinary) that difficulties occur; samsara is of this nature. I vomited severely for about 5 hours on wednesday (I arrived on Sunday in Bangkok) but it was a good chance to study feeling, and investigate again (and again) how the feeling that arises when there is moments of painful bodily feeling can't occur when there are moments of seeing. In that was, although there was no strong insight, the time passed very profitable and in a calm way. Also yahoo have lost my 50 meg rocketmail account (1 in a million chance they say) and havent been able to recover it so far - but there can only be worry if there is reflection in an unwise way on this. On the other hand this morning at breakfast they overcharged me and I was sharp with the waitress- no insight at all till I rememered, as she was walking away, that this anger arose simply because of taking concepts as object (with attachment); there were no painful feelings - simply the experience of sound and then concepts rooted in dosa arose. Then the anger disappeared(must try to make it up to the waitress next time). Robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., "rikpa21" wrote: > > Hello DSG'ers, > > , 16121 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Oct 6, 2002 1:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Memory and Definition of Sati --- Dear Nina et al, thanks for these notes from the commentary. We may wonder why inisight is not strong now, why genuine sati does not apear as often as avijja or self clinging. The answer must be that the conditions have not been accumulated. As the Commentary says the conditions for panna include such things as """"< the works done long ago (carikata.mpi): the development of > the practice, namely, the eighty religious duties (vatta), such as the > duties of the shrine terrace, which someone does himself or which others do > long ago, through bodily action.>AND himself has spoken or others have spoken long ago.> The Co gives examples of > extending merit, anumodana, meetings, teaching, etc."" So many little things that need to become habitual to support the development of insight. If these are not our habits now this may be because they were not our habits in past times. Perhaps we are stingy, or hold grudges - and yet still hope for insight to arise. And sure, it can...but also possibly there is needed preliminary work on a moment to moment, daily basis to support satipatthana. Robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., Nina van Gorkom wrote: > op 03-10-2002 09:50 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > > Dear Rob M, Sarah and all, > I checked my Thai edition of the Co to the sutta: the 16122 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Oct 6, 2002 2:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Musings on Children & the Dhamma --- Dear Erik, Chrsitine and Jon, Just read over your excellent replies to Erik. I want to add to this comment jon made: In dhammastudygroup@y..., Jonothan Abbott wrote: >> Erik, I'm sure it's only a matter of time before things pick up again. > Just keep in mind that when the good news comes, the reaction is probably > going to be much the same in terms of the mix of kusala and akusala, but > that the feeling will be pleasant feeling instead of the unpleasant > feeling of this present experience (and so, perhaps, less likely to be > seen for what it truly is ;-)). >________ I know for me this is true. When things are going well then it is rather easy for me to think that patience and other qualities are established but this is conceit and attachment. The pleasant flow of lobha (desire) is dangerous and - thanks for reminding me Jon- lobha, and its objects must be investigated too,. Robert 16123 From: Date: Sun Oct 6, 2002 2:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Light a Rupa? Hi, Jon (and Rob) - In a message dated 10/5/02 11:29:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Here you are using 'light' in the scientific sense of the word, I think. > In our context, however, I see light as being used in the sense of > brightness, ie, the opposite of darkness. If there is total darkeness, no > seeing can take place, even though the other 3 factors may be potentially > 'available'. > ========================== I get what you are saying. You are saying, I believe, that in our context when we speak of light it is in a phenomenological sense as opposed to referencing an alleged "external" cause of the brightness-experience. (I'm not claiming here that you are joining the radical phenomenalist camp, but are merely pointing to what is being referred to in this particular context.) With regard to the final sentence of yours that I quote above, however, I don't think that it is 100% correct that there is no seeing in total darkness. In such circumstances, we see darkness, itself, it seems to me - we see black. It seems to me that so long as we are a) conscious, and b) attending to vision, there is seeing. But after we *fully* lose consciousness, or if our attention has shifted *entirely*, i.e., for more than a moment, but for an extended period, to another sense (both rare circumstances), then there is no seeing. But even when, in a lighted room, we are attending *apparently* entirely to a nonvisual sense or when we are asleep , if the room is plunged into complete darkness we often will notice that, our attention shifting to the sense of sight in both cases, and our being awakened in the latter case. (Also, when *in the process* of losing consciousness (e.g. fainting/passing out) there may be seeing, and it is often described as "seeing black".) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16124 From: Date: Sun Oct 6, 2002 2:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Today's Class Hi, Rob - In a message dated 10/6/02 2:34:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > I am really looking forward to next week. The subject will > be "Realities and Concepts". I will summarize Khun Sujin's book as a > handout and also extract stuff from "Concept and Reality in Early > Buddhist Thought" by Bhikkhu Nanananda (a more technical piece). > > =============================== I will be very interested in hearing about this. I own and value that book by the Venerable, the main topic of which seems to be conceptual proliferation (papanca), as I own and value his other book, The Magic of Mind. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16125 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Oct 6, 2002 7:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Light a Rupa? --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > ========================== > I > however, I don't think that it is 100% correct that there is no seeing in > total darkness. In such circumstances, we see darkness, itself, it seems to > me - we see black. ______________ Dear Howard, Yes. As Nina said in the texts sometimes " light is not mentioned, in other texts it has been mentioned as a condiiton. To show: when the room is light there are conditions for seeing and then discerning different objects. When the room is pitch dark it is not so. A way of explaining and we should not make this too complicated."" We are in a room that has no light - there may be 'seeing' of darkness only- but the light is turned on and many visible objects appear. Robert 16126 From: Date: Sun Oct 6, 2002 5:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Light a Rupa? Hello all, Howard: >I don't think that it is 100% correct that there is no seeing in >total darkness. In such circumstances, we see darkness, itself, it seems to >me - we see black. (William James once gave this an example of a pseudo-problem: A hunter goes around a tree which has a squirrel on the trunk and, moving opposite the hunter, always keeps the trunk between them. Does the hunter circle the squirrel? If it's dark and there are no photons striking the retina one is not seeing. If it's dark one has an experience of seeing blackness.) BTW, if you attend to what you see when it's completely dark you don't see black, you see phosphenes (it's that light static / background). You actually see this all the time, if you look carefully. metta, stephen PS: If this was PlatoStudyList, or some other group in Greek philosophy would anyone be having a serious discussion of rather the world was made of earth, air, fire, and water? 16127 From: Date: Sun Oct 6, 2002 9:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 4, Intro cont Hi Jon, I agree. Panna arose. The reference was to verbal and written instructions by modern teachers. Larry ------------------- Jon: "Larry You say: <> Any textual reference for this? I guess our look at the Satipatthana Sutta may yield an answer at some stage. My understanding is that any moment of kusala has its own characteristic as a kusala dhamma, and that this characteristic can be known if panna of the appropriate level arises. Without that knowledge, however, any idea about the kusala nature of a given moment or situation (e.g., 'I'm doing X, this must be kusala') is just speculation. Jon" 16128 From: Date: Sun Oct 6, 2002 9:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Your duty is the contemplation" Hi Jon, I think there might be a slight difference between the knowledge in satipatthana and insight knowledge of anicca/dukkha/anatta, but I'm not sure. Maybe Nina could comment. For example, the inventory of the various repulsive aspects of the body is rather objective and impersonal. Insight seems to go further and say this is dukkha. I guess the one could arise after the other, but my impression was that jhana laid the ground for a deeper insight. Maybe I'm just getting mundane and supra-mundane levels mixed up. I'm a little confused on this point. Larry ps: of course insight knowledge would arise with sati. ------------- Jon: "Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Jon, do you see any difference between the knowledge mentioned in the Satipatthana Sutta and the insight (vipassana) that is usually mentioned as arising after jhana? Larry I'm not sure I've understood your question correctly, Larry, but let me try and answer it this way. The terms 'satipatthana' and 'vipassana' usually refer to the development of insight into the true nature of things, and this is the same insight no matter in whom it is developed or under what circumstances, to my underestanding. Jon" 16129 From: Date: Sun Oct 6, 2002 8:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Light a Rupa? Hi, Stephen - In a message dated 10/6/02 12:01:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, oreznoone@a... writes: > Hello all, > Howard: > >I don't think that it is 100% correct that there is no seeing in > >total darkness. In such circumstances, we see darkness, itself, it seems > to > >me - we see black. > (William James once gave this an example of a pseudo-problem: A hunter goes > > around a tree which has a squirrel on the trunk and, moving opposite the > hunter, always keeps the trunk between them. Does the hunter circle the > squirrel? > If it's dark and there are no photons striking the retina one is not > seeing. > If it's dark one has an experience of seeing blackness.) > > BTW, if you attend to what you see when it's completely dark you don't see > black, you see phosphenes (it's that light static / background). You > actually > see this all the time, if you look carefully. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Yes, I understand. (BTW, 'phosphene' reminds me of the linguistic 'phoneme' and 'morpheme'. Is it a visual analog?) ---------------------------------------------------- > > metta, stephen > PS: If this was PlatoStudyList, or some other group in Greek philosophy > would > anyone be having a serious discussion of rather the world was made of > earth, > air, fire, and water? > > > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16130 From: Date: Sun Oct 6, 2002 10:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Light a Rupa? Hi, all - In a message dated 10/6/02 3:39:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Yes, I understand. (BTW, 'phosphene' reminds me of the linguistic > 'phoneme' and 'morpheme'. Is it a visual analog?) > ---------------------------------------------------- > ============================== Never mind!! I need to learn to distinguish 'n' from 'm'! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16131 From: Date: Sun Oct 6, 2002 11:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Light a Rupa? Hello Howard, >(BTW, 'phosphene' reminds me of the linguistic >'phoneme' and 'morpheme'. Is it a visual analog?) I have it from phos, light + phainein, to show (Greek). Otherwise, I just take it to mean those specks or static or sparks of light —random firing of neurons?—on sees in the dark, or against a dark background. It also means those larger blotches one can produce by poking the side of the eye. As for its atom-like characteristics, which is what I think you're asking, I dunno; maybe. Someone else? [Lama Surya Das (spelling?) said it's an old Dzogchen trick to do this, to poke one's eye to make the world appear double and such, to break up the sense of reality, of solidness. To get this one in I'll say I think it's in the Satipatthana Sutta ;-) Yeah, it's in the back somewhere.] metta, stephen 16132 From: Date: Sun Oct 6, 2002 0:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Light a Rupa? Hi, Stephen - In a message dated 10/6/02 6:46:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, oreznoone@a... writes: > > Hello Howard, > >(BTW, 'phosphene' reminds me of the linguistic > >'phoneme' and 'morpheme'. Is it a visual analog?) > I have it from phos, light + phainein, to show (Greek). Otherwise, I just > take it to mean those specks or static or sparks of light —random firing of > > neurons?—on sees in the dark, or against a dark background. It also means > those larger blotches one can produce by poking the side of the eye. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I did understand what you were referring to. My question, however, was pointless, simply resulting from conflating 'm' and 'n'! -------------------------------------------------- As for > > its atom-like characteristics, which is what I think you're asking, I > dunno; > maybe. Someone else? > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Nah, forget it. You are kind in looking for something reasonable that I was thinking. The fact is, I *wasn't* thinking! ;-)) --------------------------------------------------- > [Lama Surya Das (spelling?) said it's an old Dzogchen trick to do this, to > poke one's eye to make the world appear double and such, to break up the > sense of reality, of solidness. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Interesting. I've thought of that myself - that the change in what is seen when pressing on the eyeball shows the non-objectivity of what as seen (or, at least, its dependence on conditions determined by "the observer"). ------------------------------------------------- To get this one in I'll say I think it's in > > the Satipatthana Sutta ;-) Yeah, it's in the back somewhere.] -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Good! That'll work! ;-)) ------------------------------------------------- > metta, stephen > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16133 From: peterdac4298 Date: Sun Oct 6, 2002 4:11pm Subject: Hi posters and lurkers Just to say hello. Have been away for quite a while but hope to pop in from time to time. Cheers Peter 16134 From: robmoult Date: Sun Oct 6, 2002 5:41pm Subject: Tibetan Book of the Dead in Rupa Class Hi All, In this week's class, a student commented, "In the Tibetan Book of the Dead, it says that when a person dies, the first element to fail is the earth element and, because of that, they are unable to hold up a cup with their hand. Yet according to what you have said, it is the wind element that supports a hand in holding up a cup." Is there somebody out there who can make a few comments on the difference in treatment of rupas between Theravada and Vajarana? Thanks, Rob M:-) 16135 From: Date: Sun Oct 6, 2002 4:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Tibetan Book of the Dead in Rupa Class Hi, Rob - In a message dated 10/6/02 8:42:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > > Hi All, > > In this week's class, a student commented, "In the Tibetan Book of > the Dead, it says that when a person dies, the first element to fail > is the earth element and, because of that, they are unable to hold > up a cup with their hand. Yet according to what you have said, it is > the wind element that supports a hand in holding up a cup." > > Is there somebody out there who can make a few comments on the > difference in treatment of rupas between Theravada and Vajarana? > > Thanks, > Rob M:-) > ========================= I really know nothing about this (from the perspective of either tradition!), but one thought that I have is that both earth element and wind element are involved, the motion of lifting being the wind element, and the strength needed for holding being the earth element. When the strength fails, there will be no ability to hold a cup. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16136 From: Date: Sun Oct 6, 2002 5:05pm Subject: laughing arahats Hello all, When I was a kid I used to see all those fat, smiling 'Buddhas' among the trinkets in tourist shops; now I find out that they're not only not the Buddha but that Buddhas can't laugh. I'm quite doubtful about this and wonder if there's any sutta reference to support it, or what the reason behind this apparently sad theory is. In ADL (p.82) Nina writes of the hasituppada-citta as, "...the smile-producing-consciousness of the arahat." What a curious notion! She continues: "Arahats do not laugh aloud, because they have no accumulations for laughing; they only smile." Lama Anagarika Govinda (odd name :-), in "The Psychological Attitude of Early Buddhist Philosophy," defines this same consciousness as "The joyful consciousness of the genesis of aesthetic pleasure." (p.103). He continues: "...[it] is accompanied by joy and free from evil root-causes and karma-creating effects because, as Bhikkhu Silacara once said: 'in the contemplation of the beautiful, if it is really pure, there are no selfish motives and man is completely free from the 'ego'. The complete absence of the 'ego', if maintained, is nibbana. And the man who is enabled temporarily to be freed from the 'ego' in the contemplation of the beautiful, has thus temporarily experienced nibbana in a way which might lead him finally to the complete, real, perfect nibbana. Therefore I maintain that beauty will help many to find nibbana.' The concept of the beautiful (subha, sobhana) in Buddhism is closely related to the idea of purity and of the Good, similar to Plato's teaching of the identity of the Good, the Beautiful, and the True in their highest aspects. It hardly needs to be said that in Buddhism, too, the Good is not to be separated from the True, i.e., from that which is in accordance with the laws of Reality..." I prefer the latter both because it makes no mention of laughter but also because of the philosophy it embodies (which preference, unfortunately, does not suffice to make either correct.) It's in keeping with one of my favorite passages from the Dhammapada (99): "Charming are the forests which do not attract the multitudes. But the holy ones, free from attachments, find delight in them for they are not seekers after the allurements of the senses." (Harischandra Kaviratna) "In forests where others find no delight, there they will know delight. Because they do not look for pleasure, they will have it." (Max Muller) I think so. And perhaps a good joke. metta, stephen 16137 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Oct 7, 2002 1:20am Subject: Re: laughing arahats Hi Stephen, Possibly this will be of assistance. metta, Christine --------------------------------- Abhidhammattha Sangaha of Anurudhacariya "A Manual of Abhidhamma" by Narada Maha Thera "26. Hasituppada is a citta peculiar to Arahats. Smiling is caused by a pleasurable feeling. There are thirteen classes of consciousness by which one may smile according to the type of the person. An ordinary worldling (puthujjana) may laugh with either one of the four types of cittas rooted in attachment, accompanied by pleasure, or one of the four kusala cittas, accompanied by pleasure. Sotapannas, Sakadagamis, and Anagamis may smile with one of the two akusala cittas, disconnected with false view, accompanied by pleasure, or with one of the four kusala cittas. Arahats and Pacceka Buddhas may smile with one of the four sobhana kiriya cittas or hasituppada. Samma Sambuddhas smile with one of the two sobhana kiriya cittas, accompanied by wisdom and pleasure. There is nothing but mere mirth in the hasituppada consciousness. The Compendium of Philosophy states: "There are six classes of laughter recognized in Buddhist works: (1) sita: - a smile manifesting itself in expression and countenance; (2) hasita: - a smile consisting in the slight movements of the lips just enough to reveal the tips of the teeth; (3) vihasita: - laughter giving out a light sound; (4) upahasita: - laughter accompanied by the movement of the head, shoulders, and arms; (5) apahasita: - laughter accompanied by the shedding of tears; and (6) atihasita: - an outburst of laughter accompanied by the forward and backward movements of the entire body from head to foot. Laughter is thus a form of bodily expression (kaya-viññatti), which may or may not be accompanied by vocal expression (vaci-viññatti). Of these, the first two classes are indulged in by cultured persons, the next two by the average man, and the last two by the lower classes of being. " http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/abhisgho/abhis01.htm --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., oreznoone@a... wrote: > Hello all, > When I was a kid I used to see all those fat, smiling 'Buddhas' among the > trinkets in tourist shops; now I find out that they're not only not the > Buddha but that Buddhas can't laugh. I'm quite doubtful about this and wonder > if there's any sutta reference to support it, or what the reason behind this > apparently sad theory is. 16138 From: Date: Mon Oct 7, 2002 1:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] laughing arahats Hi, Stephen - Just a thought: When we non-arahants laugh, sometimes mildly and sometimes raucously and sidesplittingly, I think that it represents more than just a recognition (and enjoyment) of humor/oddity/irony, but also a release from tension or unhappiness or concern, and, in general, from a perpetual, often subliminal, dissatisfaction (dukkha). A Buddha would still see, and possibly find amusingly pleasant, the humor, oddity, and irony in a joke or in a situation, but all the conditions for a laughing release would be absent - nothing to be released from. With metta, Howard In a message dated 10/7/02 12:05:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, oreznoone@a... writes: > > Hello all, > When I was a kid I used to see all those fat, smiling 'Buddhas' among the > trinkets in tourist shops; now I find out that they're not only not the > Buddha but that Buddhas can't laugh. I'm quite doubtful about this and > wonder > if there's any sutta reference to support it, or what the reason behind > this > apparently sad theory is. > > In ADL (p.82) Nina writes of the hasituppada-citta as, "...the > smile-producing-consciousness of the arahat." What a curious notion! She > continues: "Arahats do not laugh aloud, because they have no accumulations > for laughing; they only smile." > > Lama Anagarika Govinda (odd name :-), in "The Psychological Attitude of > Early > Buddhist Philosophy," defines this same consciousness as "The joyful > consciousness of the genesis of aesthetic pleasure." (p.103). He continues: > > "...[it] is accompanied by joy and free from evil root-causes and > karma-creating effects because, as Bhikkhu Silacara once said: 'in the > contemplation of the beautiful, if it is really pure, there are no selfish > motives and man is completely free from the 'ego'. The complete absence of > the 'ego', if maintained, is nibbana. And the man who is enabled > temporarily > to be freed from the 'ego' in the contemplation of the beautiful, has thus > temporarily experienced nibbana in a way which might lead him finally to > the > complete, real, perfect nibbana. Therefore I maintain that beauty will help > > many to find nibbana.' > The concept of the beautiful (subha, sobhana) in Buddhism is closely > related > to the idea of purity and of the Good, similar to Plato's teaching of the > identity of the Good, the Beautiful, and the True in their highest aspects. > > It hardly needs to be said that in Buddhism, too, the Good is not to be > separated from the True, i.e., from that which is in accordance with the > laws > of Reality..." > > I prefer the latter both because it makes no mention of laughter but also > because of the philosophy it embodies (which preference, unfortunately, > does > not suffice to make either correct.) > > It's in keeping with one of my favorite passages from the Dhammapada (99): > "Charming are the forests which do not attract the multitudes. But the holy > > ones, free from attachments, find delight in them for they are not seekers > after the allurements of the senses." (Harischandra Kaviratna) > "In forests where others find no delight, there they will know delight. > Because they do not look for pleasure, they will have it." (Max Muller) > I think so. And perhaps a good joke. > metta, stephen > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16139 From: Paul Ajahn Date: Mon Oct 7, 2002 8:01am Subject: May I know where r u guys come from? As i can see some of ur email address is xxx@y..., so i think some of u r living in hong kong, so do i! so, just being nosy....may i know where r u guys come from? thx! 16140 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 7, 2002 10:02am Subject: Perfections, Ch 6, Energy, no 2. Perfections, Ch 6, Energy, no 2. Some people regret it that they were wasting their time and did not perform kusala when there was an opportunity to do so because at such moments they were inert and lazy. Then they should consider the perfection of energy and accumulate it so that there are conditions for eliminating all kinds of akusala. Viriya cetasika is classified among the cetasikas which are the ³particulars², pakinnakå. These cetasikas arise with many cittas but not with all 1) . The six particulars are: applied thinking (vitakka), sustained thinking (vicåra), determination (adhimokkha), energy (viriya), enthusiasm or rapture (píti), and wish-to-do or zeal (chanda). Viriya cetasika arises time and again, it accompanies many cittas in daily life, except sixteen rootless cittas, (ahetuka cittas 2)), and it is the only cetasika among the ³particulars² which can become a perfection. When viriya which is energy for kusala has been further developed it becomes the perfection of energy, viriya. In that case, viriya is the attendant of paññå and a condition for the realization of the four noble Truths. Is viriya that arises now kusala or akusala? If it is akusala it is not a perfection. Viriya is among the particulars and thus it can accompany kusala citta or akusala citta, but most of the time it is likely to accompany the akusala citta which is rooted in lobha, attachment. Viriya accompanies akusala citta countless times, but instead of applying energy for akusala, we should endeavour to accumulate the perfection of energy, we should see its benefit. We read in the ³Expositor² (Book I, Part IV, I, 121) about viriya: ... energy has exerting as characteristic, strengthening the conascent dhammas as function, and opposition to giving way (to discouragement) as manifestation. It has been said: ³He being agitated, makes a rational effort,² hence it has a sense of urgency, or the basic condition of making energy, as proximate cause. We can see that there is energy at the moment of diligence, and this is the opposite of being lazy. However, according to the Abhidhamma which explains in detail the cetasikas accompanying citta, even when we are lazy viriya accompanies the akusala citta, and in that case viriya applies itself to laziness again and again. The Dhamma is very subtle and it should be considered in all details; for example, the characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate cause of realities should be studied and investigated. According to the ³Expositor² in the same section, the characteristic of viriya is the state of a courageous or energetic person, or the action of a courageous person. When there is viriya one is not inert or lax. One person may be courageous whereas someone else may be a coward. According to the Abhidhamma, also a coward must have viriya, energy, for cowardice. However, in the case of a courageous person the characteristic of viriya appears clearly since he must strive to accomplish something, inspite of obstacles or dangers. Such courage is the characteristic of viriya cetasika. When viriya goes together with the development of kusala, it can become a controlling faculty, the indriya of viriya. When it arises together with the other indriyas, the indriyas of confidence (saddhå), sati, samådhi (concentration) and paññå with the development of satipatthåna, it is right effort, sammåvåyåma. It is right effort for awareness and understanding of the characteristics of realities, just as they naturally appear at this moment. When paññå has further developed, viriya becomes a power, bala, which is unshakable, so that there is energy for awareness and understanding of the characteristics of nåma and rúpa in whatever situation. Footnotes: 1. Seven cetasikas, the ³universals² , sabbacitta sådhårana, arise with every citta. The six particulars accompany kusala cittas, akusala cittas, vipåkacittas and kiriyacittas (inoperative, neither cause nor result), but they do not accompany every citta. 2. Viriya cetasika does not accompany the sixteen ahetuka cittas which are: the five-sense-door adverting-consciousness, pañca-dvåråvajjana-citta, the five pairs of sense-cognitions of seeing, etc., pañca-vinnånas, the two types of receiving-consciousness, sampatìcchana-citta, the three types of investigating-consciousness, santírana-citta, and the determining-consciousness, votthapana-citta. 16141 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 7, 2002 10:02am Subject: my meditation Dear Eric and Jon, First of all, Eric, I sympathize with your troubles, and I hope it will be soon that things turn out well for you and Eath. Jon, I printed out what you wrote to Eric, because many points are well worth considering again and again: . We know in theory, but, what about now? , What you wrote to Eric is to be applied in the situations of life, when we are in trying circumstances. And then what you wrote at the end: When there is pleasant feeling again we are less likely to see reality as it is. We are happy again, forget about the worldly conditions. Yes, this is my meditation, I value samatha. This is Recollection of Dhamma. Samatha can be together with vipassana. I do not see samatha as preliminary work for many moments of sati. Samatha and satipatthana can come naturally, whatever comes let it come. Nina. 16142 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 7, 2002 10:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Your duty is the contemplation" Hi Larry op 06-10-2002 18:54 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w... > I think there might be a slight difference between the knowledge in > satipatthana and insight knowledge of anicca/dukkha/anatta, but I'm not > sure. Maybe Nina could comment. N: the development of satipatthana and of insight are the same. The three characteristics are known more clearly in the course of the stages of insight. First nama and rupa have to be distinguished from each other. L:For example, the inventory of the > various repulsive aspects of the body is rather objective and > impersonal. Insight seems to go further and say this is dukkha. I guess > the one could arise after the other, but my impression was that jhana > laid the ground for a deeper insight. N: When panna is more developed it will see nama and rupa more clearly and also their characteristics of impermanence, dukkha, anatta. When people have inclination and skill for jhana it can arise naturally, not because one wishes for it. Also jhanacitta can be object of insight. Nobody can take hold of jhana thinking that this must be the basis for insight. We can continue this subject when we come to hair of the head, etc. in the Commentary. We are going off for a twoday hike, Larry, Nina 16143 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Oct 7, 2002 0:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] laughing arahats Hi Stephen (and Howard), Thanks for asking about this Stephen - I found this article gave me a clue as to why arahants and buddhas do not laugh. metta, Christine http://www.1729.com/column/9June2000-humour.html Excerpt: "Most people think of humour as something that exists for the sake of entertainment, or for adding spice to social occasions. But humour is an aspect of the human mind, and as such, is almost certainly part of a system for information processing. So, what sort of information is being processed when we laugh at something funny ? Most humour follows a pattern like this: First we think that something is true, based on clues given to us, But then we are presented with further evidence, which shows that we were wrong, In fact we were so wrong, that there was something wrong with the thought processes that lead to the initial conclusion. And at the end of this process, we feel pleasure. <>..... a careful analysis of humour shows that it has to do with being wrong about something. And the pleasure of humour contrasts with the mental unpleasantness of being wrong in situations which are not humorous. In fact one could presume that maybe the purpose of humour is precisely to cancel out the unpleasantness caused by confronting evidence that undermines our existing belief systems, at least under certain circumstances. And those certain circumstances are when the evidence against our beliefs is so overwhelming that there is little risk in accepting we were wrong in that particular case. In fact the pleasure of humour even encourages us to actively search out evidence that we may be obviously wrong about the things we believe in. For example we might seek the company of other people who can make us laugh. To sum it up in a slogan: We do not enjoy being presented with evidence that shows we might be wrong, but we do enjoy being presented with evidence that shows that we really, really are wrong. The Pain of Being Wrong Most people are uncomfortable in situations that cause them to question the fundamental beliefs that they have about the world around them. If evidence seems to contradict that fundamental belief system, they will prefer to ignore the evidence rather than change their beliefs. They prefer not to consider even the possibility that they may be wrong. <>.... humour plays an important role in the individual's development of their own personal belief systems. A lot of humour is derived from communication via language with other members of one's society. In effect members of a social group are seeking to successfully challenge each other's belief systems, with the end result of reducing each other's glaring errors." <> 16144 From: Antony Woods Date: Mon Oct 7, 2002 0:52pm Subject: Munindra-ji teachings Dear List, I looked up "Anagarika Munindra" in Google and found comments about and one sentence teachings from Munindra-ji from Joseph Goldstein, Sharon Salzberg and others: "If you want to understand your mind, sit down and observe it" "Be simple and easy; take things as they come; be simple and easy" "The Buddha solved his problem -- now solve yours" Does anyone have any teachings from Munindra-ji? Thanks / Antony. 16145 From: Antony Woods Date: Mon Oct 7, 2002 1:06pm Subject: Wise Humor and Right Speech Dear Christine, Howard, Stephen and all, Thanissaro Bhikkhu wrote in "Right Speech": "For many of us, the most difficult part of practicing right speech lies in how we express our sense of humor. Especially here in America, we're used to getting laughs with exaggeration, sarcasm, group stereotypes, and pure silliness -- all classic examples of wrong speech. If people get used to these sorts of careless humor, they stop listening carefully to what we say. In this way, we cheapen our own discourse. Actually, there's enough irony in the state of the world that we don't need to exaggerate or be sarcastic. The greatest humorists are the ones who simply make us look directly at the way things are. Expressing our humor in ways that are truthful, useful, and wise may require thought and effort, but when we master this sort of wit we find that the effort is well spent. We've sharpened our own minds and have improved our verbal environment. In this way, even our jokes become part of our practice: an opportunity to develop positive qualities of mind and to offer something of intelligent value to the people around us." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/speech.html 16146 From: Date: Mon Oct 7, 2002 0:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] laughing arahats Hello Christine, Howard, all Knock, Knock. Who's there? Sam. Sam who? Sam and Janet evening... I don't think that there is any all encompassing theory of humor, though many have been proposed, and the one you posted is a good one. Certainly a lot of humor, perhaps most, is just plain mean. But some jokes, like the above, are just humorous word play, a pun on a song. Now I'm not claiming that the Buddha told "Knock. Knock." jokes, but it seems that some humor is harmless. Here's a joke the Buddha told: The Dhamma will only last half as long if women are admitted into the sangha. (Twice as many people, half as long, get it? Many bhikkhus apparently did not.) There was also a second part (probably in error, judging by your sources, concerning this particular citta) about beauty, or the aesthetic sense, being a way into enlightenment; the identification of the True with Beauty. I have some personal reasons for finding this interesting. ...So the Three Stooges are building a house and Curly is examining, then t hrowing away, about half the nails. Moe notices this and asks him why. He replies that "The point is on the wrong end." Moe thinks about this, a light dawns, then he whacks Curly with a hammer, explaining "Those nails are for the *other* side of the house!" Now that may not be humorous to an arahat (nor do most woman seem to appreciate the Three Stooges), nor edifying, but... metta, stephen 16147 From: Date: Mon Oct 7, 2002 4:36pm Subject: Way 9, Comm. "The Way of Mindfulness" by Some Thera http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html The Commentary to the Discourse on the Arousing of Mindfulness with Marginal Notes The Section of the Synopsis Evam me sutam = "Thus have I heard" the Discourse on the Arousing of Mindfulness [Satipatthana Sutta]. "I" refers to the Elder Ananda, cousin of the Buddha. At the first Buddhist Council held in the Sattapanna Cave at Rajagaha under the presidentship of the Great Disciple of the Buddha, the Elder Maha Kassapa, the Collection of the Discourses [Sutta Pitaka] was recited by the Elder Ananda. Ekam samayam bhagava Kurusu viharati = "At one time the Blessed One was living in the (country of the) Kurus." Although the territory of the Kuru Princes, their homeland, was a single contiguous domain, by taking into consideration its many villages and market-towns, it was commonly referred to by the use of the plural form "Kurus". In the time of the legendary king Mandhatu, say the commentators, inhabitants of the three continents, Pubba Videha, Apara Goyana, and Uttara Kuru, having heard that Jambudipa,[1] the birthplace of Sammasambuddhas,[2] Paccekabuddhas,[3] the Great Disciples of the Buddhas, Universal Monarchs and other beings of mighty virtue, was an exceedingly pleasant, excellent continent, came to Jambudipa with the Universal Monarch Mandhatu who was making a tour of all the continents, in due order, preceded by his Wheel Treasure. And at last when Mandhatu bodily translated himself by means of his psychic virtue to the Tavatimsa devaloka, the heaven of the Thirty-three, the people of the three continents who accompanied him to Jambudipa begged of his son for territory to live in, as they said they had come carried by the great power of Mandhatu, and were now unable by themselves to return to their own continents. Their prayer was heard and lands were granted to each of the groups of people of the three continents. The places in which these people settled got the names of the original continents from which they had emigrated. The settlement of people from Pubba Videha came to be known as Videha, of those from Apara Goyana, as Aparanta, and of those from Uttara Kuru as Kururattha. Kammasadammam nama Kurunam nigamo = "At Kammasadamma, a market-town of the Kuru people." Some explain the word Kammasadamma, here, spelling it with a "dh" instead of a "d". Since Kammasa was tamed here it was called Kammasadamma, the place of the taming of Kammasa. Kammasa refers to the cannibal of Kammasapada, the one with the speckled, black and white or grey colored foot. It is said that a wound on his foot, caused by a stake, healed, having become like a piece of wood with lines of fibre of a complex pattern [cittadaru sadiso hutva]. Therefore, he became well-known as Kammasapada, Speckled Foot. By whom was Speckled Foot tamed? By the Great Being, the Bodhisatta. In which Birth-story [Jataka] is it stated? Certain commentators say: "In the Sutasoma Birth-story". But the elders of the Great Minister at Anuradhapura, the Maha Vihara, say that it is stated in the Jayaddisa Birth-story. Kammasapada was tamed, weaned of his cannibalism, by the Great Being, in the circumstances mentioned in the Jayaddisa Birth-story. The following statement occurs in that story: To free my sire did I renounce my life, When born as very son of the king, Jayaddisa, Pañcala's sovran chief, And make even Speckled Foot have faith in me.[4] Some [keci] however explain spelling the word thus: Kammasadhamma. It is said that the traditional Kuru virtuous practice [Kuruvattadhamma] became (black or diversified or) stained [kammaso jato] in that place. Therefore, it was called Kammasadhamma. The market-town established there, too, got the same name. Why was it not said Kammasadamme Kurunam nigame using the locative? Because, it is said, there was no monastery (or dwelling place) at which the Blessed One could stay, in that market-town. Away from the market-town, however, there was a huge dense jungle in a delightful region, watered well. In that jungle, the Blessed One lived, making the market-town his place for gathering alms. ------------ 1. The Land of the Jambu, Sinhala: Ma Dam, Eugenia Jambolana, a tree that grows to fairly great proportions and yields a small roundish fruit with purple pulp enclosing a stone. 2. Fully enlightened ones. 3. Solitarily enlightened ones. 4. "See the story of Kalmasapada and its evolution in Indian literature, by Watanabe, Journal of the Pali Text Society, 1909, p. 236 foll. Maha Sutasoma Jataka (No. 537); and Jayaddisa Jataka (No. 513). Dictionary of Pali Proper Names, vol. I. pp 528-529. Watanabe's study is comprehensive. He believes Jataka No. 537 to be older than 513. Some said that the converting of Speckled Foot was in No. 537. The Maha Vihara teachers said that it was in No. 513. 16148 From: azita gill Date: Mon Oct 7, 2002 7:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Wise Humor and Right Speech --- Antony Woods wrote: > Dear Christine, Howard, Stephen and all, > > Thanissaro Bhikkhu wrote in "Right Speech": > > dear Antony, < Thank you for these comments. If we don't watch what we say, lots of garbage comes tumbling out our mouths. I'd like to add some writings from a Peter France who wrote " the Insight of Solitude - Hermits". < 'a brother told Abbas Sisoes "I want to control my heart but I can't". The Abbas replied "how can we control our hearts when we keep open the door of our mouths." < 'just as if you leave open the door of the public baths the steam escapes and their virtue is lost, so the virtue of the person who talks a lot escapes the open doors of the voice. This is why silence is a good thing; it is nothing less than the mother of wise thoughts.' < Maybe not pure dhamma, however good reminder to watch what we say. < Cheers, Azita > 16149 From: Sarah Date: Mon Oct 7, 2002 10:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Munindra-ji teachings Dear Antony, --- Antony Woods wrote: > Dear List, > Does anyone have any teachings from Munindra-ji? ..... I spent a few months meditating and studying with Munindra in Bodh Gaya in the winter of 1974/75. I don’t have any quotes to add and didn’t make any notes or keep a diary. I had a few letters from him after I left in his fine hand-writing, but I didn’t keep them. Would a few very personal impressions and memories be of any help? I arrived in Bodh Gaya with a rather superficial interest in Buddhism, coming from Sarnath and en route to a yoga ashram in the area. I never got to the yoga ashram, but spent several months living in a Tibetan tent on one rupee a day and very seriously following Munindra’s (Mahasi Sayadaw) meditation instructions. At that time, most the foreigners, as I recall, were staying in the Burmese vihara and taking 10 day courses with Goenka. When I met Munindra, I was so impressed by his sweetness, kindness and modesty that I had no interest in following other courses or teachers. I lived very quietly, followed what I then considered to be ‘the practice’ and usually every day -- especially towards the end when the dust storms were blowing around Bodh Gaya in March/April and the Tibetans and most foreigners had left --I’d visit Munindra for at least a couple of hours a day to discuss dhamma and often to share his simple lunch. He had no interest in fame or reputation and was merely concerned to help and share as best he could, content with very little. His example -- like Khun Sujin’s later -- was that of really appreciating the value of being like a dustrag*. He used to call me ‘Sila’ and sometimes we’d go for walks together. At other times, before the dust storms started, visitors like Goenka himself would join us and ask him questions on abhidhamma details, for example, and then I’d usually walk a few paces behind. He always made me feel very welcome and the appreciation of dhamma was sufficient reward as it was later when I started to spend time with Khun Sujin. He never told me to live simply or to do anything, but I learnt so much from his example. His lifestyle and way of thinking was very simple and uncomplicated. There was never any ceremony involved and again, like I found with Khun Sujin, he used to discourage unnecessary ritual or outward shows of reverence in his modest way. I realise as I’m writing that I’ve always been very drawn to these qualities for inspiration. Whatever problems would arise in a day, we’d continue discussing dhamma. One day, I arrived with an ankle the size of a balloon, I recall, from a bite. He’d make a friendly enquiry and show concern and then we’d forget it for two hours as we’d discuss dhamma. At that time, I’d read very little, but I could bring anything along to discuss from a Buddhist point of view. I remember, for quite a while, we’d read pasages from Krishnamurti and compare this with the Buddhist teachings, for example. He’d always have a twinkle in his eye and the discussions were always with smiles and never 'heavy' or argumentative in anyway. They were very precious occasions. I’d meet some of his other students who might pop in or whom I’d see in the quiet village -- no hotels, internet cafes or cars then, but most my time was spent alone with Munindra, so I never got to know anyone else very much. We had occasional correspondence for a year or two afterwards. On a later visit to Bodh Gaya I planned to visit him but he was on an overseas trip. I’ve been totally out of touch since. I think what I value most was his example of kindness, patience and modesty and his encouragement to study and consider, rather than just follow. Particularly for me at that time, coming from a Christian background and having already studied psychology for an honours degree, was the emphasis he’d make on not having to accept any part of the teachings on blind faith, but to test and prove and question again and again. Other meditation teachers did not share this emphasis. The other big factor for me in those days was my social conscience and concern and here we were in the poorest state in India. By his example, Munindra helped me to have more confidence in being content with helping and sharing as best one could at the present time, rather than making life so complicated with ones grandiose schemes and proliferations about what else one should be doing. I know he'd be very happy to see this sharing of dhamma on DSG and other websites and discussion lists. Hope this helps and I’ll be glad to hear the reason for your interest sometime. It’s been a pleasure to consider more. Sarah ==== * We had some discussion before on DSG about living like a dustrag, and Sariutta's reminders in order to see the ugliness of mana (conceit). These are just a couple of the posts, but there were several others: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m9606.html http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m9662.html 16150 From: Sarah Date: Mon Oct 7, 2002 11:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] May I know where r u guys come from? Hi Paul, Yes, I now see our email addresses are the same @......;-) Firstly welcome to DSG - hope you find it useful here and look forward to any comments or questions. You gave a pali glossary link to Christine, so hope you're not being put off by the Pali yourself. ..... --- Paul Ajahn wrote: > As i can see some of ur email address is > xxx@y..., so i think some of u r living in > hong kong, so do i! > > so, just being nosy....may i know where r u guys come > from? .... That's great..makes it easier for me to ask you a few qus afterwards too;-) Yes, Jon and I have been living in Hong Kong for nearly 20 years now. He's Australian (but also lived in Thailand for 8 years), so in the past 30 yrs, he's only had 2 yrs in Australia. I'm English. How about you? Are you from Hong Kong originally? Please tell us a little more about your interest in dhamma and how you found yourself on DSG. (Perhaps we'll meet up off-list sometime too. We live and work in Admiralty area). Sarah ====== 16151 From: Sarah Date: Mon Oct 7, 2002 11:14pm Subject: Another welcome Hi Peter, --- peterdac4298 wrote: > Hi posters and lurkers > > Just to say hello. Have been away for quite a while but hope to pop > in from time to time. ..... Hope you also make yourself at home here and find it useful and enjoyable. Where have you been away I wonder? I'll also be glad to hear where you're from and what has brought you here in particular. Thanks for the 'hello'. It's always good to know who's listening in;-) Sarah ===== 16152 From: Sarah Date: Tue Oct 8, 2002 0:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Back to Frank (was: Episode II: Vedana [Howard]) Hi Frank, --- Frank Kuan wrote: > Hi Sarah, thanks for the explanation. I've been busy > but also consciously cutting down on my internet time. > Trying to restrict my internet (ab)usage to 1hour max > per day. .... Thanks for sharing it with us;-) ..... > So again, if feelings are ONLY namas (mental > aggregates), then: > > 1) calling unpleasant bodily feeling sure seems like > a misnomer and adds more confusion. ..... I’ve always thought the same to be honest...... But then we also have ‘kaya vinnana’ (body consciousness), which of course is also a nama, so I think this is why we need to really unerstand what the terms mean. I remember also having a discussion with Erik about the 6 pairs of cetasikas - it’s easy to confuse kaya passaddhi (tranquillity of ‘body’), for example, with a rupa, rather than understanding it as a cetasika, another nama. ..... > 2) I have a really hard time believing that these > unpleasant bodily feelings are a function of kamma > vipaka. In this very moment, I can experience coldness > (rupa) + bodily consciousness of that rupa coldness, > and whether I feel that pleasant or unpleasant > (mental) feeling is dependent on conditions, but > pretty kammically neutral conditions most of the time > as I see it. You could argue that what I perceive as > unpleasant physical feeling is already the mental > feelings that follow the intial coldness(rupa)+bodily > consciousness+unpleasant physical feeling, but how can > we verify? ..... You always (well, nearly always) ask excellent questions, Frank, imho. You also give many of the answers;-) Just as you say, the dosa and domanassa (unpleasant mental feeling) follow on so quickly from the unpleasant bodily feeling - the dukkha, and as there is usually ignorance, there is no understanding of the distinction at all.The only way to know for sure is by developing sati and panna. The anagami and arahat still have unpleasant bodily feeling, but no dosa and domanassa. While there is no guarding of the sense doors, they’re bound to follow and so we can see where the root of the problems lie - not in the vipaka, but in the ‘response’. If there is awareness of dosa or unpleasant feeling now, I think it's apparent that it is not the same as the unpleasant (bodily) feeling when the cold water is experienced. Rob K* just gave the example of vomitting. There are the moments of unpleasant bodily experience, but then so many, many moments of aversion and unpleasant feeling about these short moments of vipaka. It can be tested out. ..... > 3) It seems like the abidhamma is trying to break > things down into a completely logical and atomic > moment by moment analysis, and it doesn't seem right > to me. In other words, I think you get yourself into > trouble by trying to find a unified theory that > explains reality through concepts, whereas the sutta > usages of things like kusala, akusala, are somewhat > fuzzier things that can't be broken down into > perfectly clean and dilineated atomic units. ..... Actually, in the suttas, such as in SN, there are many elaborations on the diversity of feelings and on the arahat’s experience of feelings. I think the Sutta usages only seem ‘fuzzier’ because they are not fully comprehended without an understanding of some Abhidhamma and commentary assistance. For example, just understanding a little about the distinction just discussed between bodily and mental feelings will make a difference when reading about feelings in the suttas. It doesn’t mean that there can be or should be a ‘logical and atomic moment by moment anlysis’ every time there is a feeling. This would be impossible and wrong view if one had this idea. It would be thinking and not understanding. ..... > It's hard to put into words what I mean, but what it > comes down to is it's more important that I decrease > the (unnecessary) mental unpleasant feeling that > follows unpleasnat physical experiences (through lots > of daily meditation practice :) , and not worry too > much whether there is a perfect theory that explains > blow by blow what's happening each mind moment. ..... So the purpose is very important.If one’s purpose is to reduce mental unpleasant feeling, the path will not be the same as if one’s purpose is to develop understanding and detachment. Of course, by its nature, dosa and domanassa are unpleasant, but as Jon just pointed out in his message to Erik, what about pleasant mental feeling and lobha when the temperature is just right and the worldly conditions are just as we’d like them? Isn’t it the attachment and ignorance of it that leads to the aversion when we receive the flip side? I appreciate your concern about an over-emphsis on theory. It’s not a question of knowing all the intricate details but some details at some crucial points can help us avoid quite a few wrong tracks or errors in thinking, I’ve found. I’ll be very glad to hear any more on these points if you have time;-) Sarah ==== *Rob, hope you're fully recovered and our sympathies for your internet losses too. 16153 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Oct 8, 2002 4:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] laughing arahats Hi Stephen, I spent quite a while trying to understand the knock knock joke - until I realised that it was probably typed with an American (?) accent. If you had typed it with an Australian accent as "knock knock - who's there? - sum - sum who? - sum and jhana evening" - I would have 'got it' straight away ... :) - complete with no-selves and tenuous Dhamma focus Last week the World's Funniest Joke was announced by the University of Hertfordshire after collecting 40,000 entries and 2 million ratings over a year. The Winning Joke didn't even raise a smile from me. (though a couple of others caused a giggle.) I found I enjoyed the second placed joke much more. Humour - among those of us not yet arahants - is closely related to nationality and culture. (and, just possibly, gender.) http://web.psy.herts.ac.uk/ metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., oreznoone@a... wrote: > Hello Christine, Howard, all > > Knock, Knock. > Who's there? > Sam. > Sam who? > Sam and Janet evening... > 16154 From: ajahn_paul Date: Tue Oct 8, 2002 4:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] May I know where r u guys come from? Hi Sarah, Yes, i was born in Hong Kong, been to Canada for few yrs when i was a teenager. Been to Thailand for few weeks! :) i started learning Buddhism when i was 14, the Mahayana way. And i had spent more than 2 yrs in learning the Tibetan Buddhism, it was more than 8 yrs ago! Few yrs ago, i found that the Theravada Buddhism is more systematic, and more realistic, so.... i starting from anapana.... then vipassana... but,,, reading english is still not easy for me,,, and of course learning Pali is even harder! and thats why i have 2 books at the same time, one is in english version, and the other one is in chinese version, just like "Visuddhimagga"! hahaa ^_~ Wish can learn more from this group! Paul --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Hi Paul, > > Yes, I now see our email addresses are the same @......;-) > > Firstly welcome to DSG - hope you find it useful here and look forward to > any comments or questions. You gave a pali glossary link to Christine, so > hope you're not being put off by the Pali yourself. > ..... > > --- Paul Ajahn wrote: > As i can see some of ur > email address is > > xxx@y..., so i think some of u r living in > > hong kong, so do i! > > > > so, just being nosy....may i know where r u guys come > > from? > .... > That's great..makes it easier for me to ask you a few qus afterwards > too;-) > > Yes, Jon and I have been living in Hong Kong for nearly 20 years now. He's > Australian (but also lived in Thailand for 8 years), so in the past 30 > yrs, he's only had 2 yrs in Australia. I'm English. > > How about you? Are you from Hong Kong originally? Please tell us a little > more about your interest in dhamma and how you found yourself on DSG. > > (Perhaps we'll meet up off-list sometime too. We live and work in > Admiralty area). > > Sarah > ====== > > 16155 From: Date: Tue Oct 8, 2002 1:09am Subject: Pali 'abhi' = Greek 'epi'? Hi, all - It occurred to me that these prefixes might be cognates of each other. I looked up each on the net and found the following: ******************************* The prefix epi- (or ep-) is also Greek; its meanings range from "upon" to "besides" to "over" to "outer" to "under" to "after" to "attached to." and Abhi to, unto, forward, towards, high, great, special, over ******************************** I had read recently that in the suttas, the 'abhi' in 'abhidhamma' and 'abhivinaya' meant "with regard to", "pertaining to" or "about". Now, the "attached to" of 'epi' seems to carry this meaning. Does anyone here know the facts with regard to this matter? With metta, Howard 16156 From: Sarah Date: Tue Oct 8, 2002 5:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] May I know where r u guys come from? Hi Paul, > --- ajahn_paul wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Yes, i was born in Hong Kong, been to Canada for few yrs when i was a > teenager. Been to Thailand for few weeks! :) > > i started learning Buddhism when i was 14, the Mahayana way. And i > had spent more than 2 yrs in learning the Tibetan Buddhism, it was > more than 8 yrs ago! Few yrs ago, i found that the Theravada > Buddhism is more systematic, and more realistic, so.... i starting > from anapana.... then vipassana... ..... This is all very interesting and quite unusual, especially in Hong Kong;-) ... > but,,, reading english is still not easy for me,,, and of course > learning Pali is even harder! and thats why i have 2 books at the > same time, one is in english version, and the other one is in chinese > version, just like "Visuddhimagga"! hahaa ^_~ .... Well your written English is fine and I’m sure you’re being modest. Has the Visuddhimagga been translated into Chinese? What about the rest of the Pali canon? I’m sure I’ve been told all this, but have forgotten. ..... > Wish can learn more from this group! ..... We’ll be glad to hear any of your comments or questions and you’re most welcome to ask for any clarification of any topics or posts that are too difficult to follow. Under Useful Posts, there are also some messages under New to the List and Pali which may be of interest to you or other newbies here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ Thanks for the info, hope to meet you later too.(din wa hai: 23697624). Also let me know off-list if you wish to have details of B.Bodhi’s talk in Hong Kong next week. Sarah ===== 16157 From: Antony Woods Date: Tue Oct 8, 2002 6:08am Subject: "paramis are not lost through parinibbana" Dear dsg, I had the thought: "paramis are not lost through parinibbana" Any comments? I got the idea from the following sutta quote: So Ven. Ananda & Cunda the novice went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As they were sitting there, Ven. Ananda said to him, "Lord, just now Cunda the novice said to me, 'Venerable sir, Ven. Sariputta has attained total Unbinding. Here are his bowl & robes.' It was as if my body were drugged, I lost my bearings, things weren't clear to me, on hearing that Ven. Sariputta had attained total Unbinding." "But, Ananda, when he attained total Unbinding, did Sariputta take the aggregate of virtue along with him? Did he take the aggregate of concentration... discernment... release... the aggregate of knowledge & vision of release along with him?" "No, lord, when he attained total Unbinding, Ven. Sariputta didn't take the aggregate of virtue... concentration... discernment... release... the aggregate of knowledge & vision of release along with him." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn47-013.html 16158 From: Date: Tue Oct 8, 2002 4:58am Subject: Why did the Buddha meditate? Hello all, (If meditation is instrumental, for the attainment of an end) Why did the Buddha meditate throughout his life, including the very end? metta, stephen 16159 From: Jim Anderson Date: Tue Oct 8, 2002 10:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali 'abhi' = Greek 'epi'? Dear Howard, It's possible that the Greek epi and the Pali/Sanskrit abhi are related but according to some of my reference materials, Gk epi is related to Pali/Sanskrit api which is rarely seen used as a prefix compared to the very common abhi which is related to Gk amphi and L. ambi (which I find a little dubious). Pali has altogether 20 prefixes (upasagga-s) and you will find some of them readily matches up with Gk ones such as: pa and pro; pari and peri; sa.m and sym; upa and hypo (also hyper and L. sub). The abhi of abhidhamma is understood in two senses according to the Atthasalini: 1. superior, higher (atireka) and 2. distinguished (visi.t.tha). Recently, I was studying the Pali word apilaapana which is one of the terms used to define the characteristic of sati. It's usually translated as non-floating which is based on taking it to be derived from a + pilaapana (plaavana in Skt.) which agrees with the commentaries but according to a research article by K.R. Norman in the Journal of the Pali Text Society, Vol. XII and with a sutta to back it up it's possible that the derivation is in fact api (a prefix) + laapana with a meaning of reminding, remembering by reciting, calling to mind and the new Cone dictionary is following Norman on this instead of the commentaries. Best wishes, Jim > Hi, all - > > It occurred to me that these prefixes might be cognates of each other. > I looked up each on the net and found the following: > > ******************************* > The prefix epi- (or ep-) is also Greek; its meanings range from "upon" to > "besides" to "over" to "outer" to "under" to "after" to "attached to." > > and > > Abhi to, unto, forward, towards, high, great, special, over > ******************************** > I had read recently that in the suttas, the 'abhi' in 'abhidhamma' and > 'abhivinaya' meant "with regard to", "pertaining to" or "about". Now, the > "attached to" of 'epi' seems to carry this meaning. Does anyone here know the > facts with regard to this matter? > > With metta, > Howard 16160 From: Date: Tue Oct 8, 2002 6:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali 'abhi' = Greek 'epi'? Hi, Jim - Thank you! With metta, Howard In a message dated 10/8/02 1:14:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jimanderson_on@y... writes: > Dear Howard, > > It's possible that the Greek epi and the Pali/Sanskrit abhi are > related but according to some of my reference materials, Gk epi is > related to Pali/Sanskrit api which is rarely seen used as a prefix > compared to the very common abhi which is related to Gk amphi and L. > ambi (which I find a little dubious). > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16161 From: Date: Tue Oct 8, 2002 4:54pm Subject: Way 10, Comm. "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html Commentary continued: Ekayano ayam bhikkhave maggo = "This is the only way, O bhikkhus." Why did the Blessed One teach this Discourse? Because of the ability of the people of the Kurus to take in deep doctrine. The inhabitants of the Kuru country -- bhikkhus, bhikkhunis, upasakas, upasikas -- by reason of their country being blessed with a perfect climate, and through their enjoyment of other comfortable conditions, were always healthy in body and in mind. They, happy with healthy minds and bodies, and having the power of knowledge, were capable of receiving deep teachings. Therefore, the Blessed One, perceiving their ability to appreciate this profound instruction, proclaimed to them this Discourse on the Arousing of Mindfulness, which is deep in meaning, having set up the subject of meditation, in Arahantship, in twenty-one places. For even as a man, having got a golden basket should fill it with divers flowers, or indeed having got a golden casket should fill it with precious jewels of the seven kinds, the Blessed One, having got a following of the Kuru-land people, dispensed, it is said, deep doctrine. Likewise, on that very account, there, in the Kurus, the Blessed One, taught other deep teachings: the Maha-nidana Sutta, Maha-satipatthana Sutta, Saropama Sutta, Rukkhupama Sutta, Ratthapala Sutta, Magandiya Sutta, and the Aneñjasappaya Sutta. Further, in that territory of the Kuru people,[5] the four classes -- bhikkhu, bhikkhuni, upasaka, upasika -- generally by nature were earnest in the application of the Arousing of Mindfulness to their daily life. At the very lowest, even servants, usually, spoke with mindfulness. At wells or in spinning halls useless talk was not heard. If some woman asked of another woman, "Mother, which Arousing of Mindfulness do you practice?" and got the reply, "None at all," then that woman who replied so was reproached thus: "Your life is shameful; though you live you are as if dead," and was taught one of the kinds of Mindfulness-arousing. But on being questioned if she said that she was practicing such and such an Arousing of Mindfulness, then she was praised thus: "Well done, well done! Your life is blessed; you are really one who has attained to the human state; for you the Sammasambuddhas have come to be." >[Sc] With a perfect climate... comfortable conditions. This includes such items as wholesome food and drink essential for maintaining mind and body unimpaired. "The only way" = The one way [Ekayanoti ekamaggo]. There are many words for "way". The word used for "way" here is "ayana" ("going" or road). Therefore, "This is the only way, O bhikkhus [ekayano ayam bhikkhave maggo]" means here: "A single way ("going" or road), O bhikkhus, is this way; it is not of the nature of a double way [ekamaggo ayam bhikkhave maggo na dvedhapathabhuto]". Or it is "the only way" because it has to be trodden by oneself only [ekeneva ayitabbo]. That is without a companion. The state of being companionless is twofold: without a comrade, after abandoning contact with the crowd, and in the sense of being withdrawn (or secluded) from craving, through tranquillity of mind. Or it is called "ekayana" because it is the way of the one [ekassa ayana]. "Of the one" = of the best; of all beings the Blessed One is best. Therefore, it is called the Blessed One's Way. Although others too go along that way, it is the Buddha's because he creates it. Accordingly it is said: "He, the Blessed One, is the creator of the uncreated path, O Brahman." It proceeds (or exists) only in this Doctrine-and-discipline and not in any other. Accordingly the Master declared: "Subhadda, only in this Doctrine-and-discipline is the Eightfold Way to be found." And further, "ekayana" means: It goes to the one [ekam ayati] -- that is, it (the way) goes solely to Nibbana. Although in the earlier stages this method of meditation proceeds on different lines, in the latter, it goes to just the one Nibbana. And that is why Brahma Sahampati said: Whose mind perceiving life's last dying out Vibrates with love, he knows the only way That led in ancient times, is leading now, And in the future will lead past the flood.[6] >As Nibbana is without a second, that is, without craving as accompanying quality, it is called the one. Hence it is said: "Truth is one; it is without a second." >Why is the Arousing of Mindfulness intended by the word "way"? Are there not many other factors of the way, namely, understanding, thinking, speech, action, livelihood, effort, and concentration, besides mindfulness? To be sure there are. But all these are implied when the Arousing of Mindfulness is mentioned, because these factors exist in union with mindfulness. Knowledge, energy and the like are mentioned in the analytically expository portion [niddese]. In the synopsis [uddese], however, the consideration should be regarded as that of mindfulness alone, by way of the mental disposition of those capable of being trained. Some [keci], however, construing according to the stanza beginning with the words, "They do not go twice to the further shore [na param digunam yanti]"[7] say, "One goes to Nibbana once, therefore it is ekayana." This explanation is not proper. Because in this instruction the earlier part of the Path is intended to be presented, the preliminary part of the Way of Mindfulness proceeding in the four objects of contemplation is meant here, and not the supramundane Way of Mindfulness. And that preliminary part of the Path proceeds (for the aspirant) many times; or it may be said that there is many a going on it, by way of repetition of practice. -------------------- Footnotes: 5. "The ancient Kuru country may be said to have comprised the Kuruksetra and Thaneswar. The district formerly included Sonepat Amin Kernal and Panipat, and was situated between the Saraswati (mod. Sarsuti) on the north and the Drsadvat (mod. Rakshi) on the south." -- Cited from G.De by R. Mehta in the Pre-Buddhist India p. 382, Bombay, 1939. The kingdom of Kuru... was divided into three parts, Kuruksetra, the Kurus (i.e., the country of the Kurus), and Kurujangala (the forest tract included in the kingdom." Notes to S. M. Sastri's edition of Cunningham's Ancient Geography of India, p. 701, Calcutta, 1924. [Go back] 6. Samyutta Nikaya v, pages 168 and 186, P.T.S. Edition [Go back] 7. Sutta Nipata verse 714. 16162 From: Date: Tue Oct 8, 2002 1:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Why did the Buddha meditate? In a message dated 10/8/2002 9:08:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time, oreznoone@a... writes: > Hello all, > (If meditation is instrumental, for the attainment of an end) Why did the > Buddha meditate throughout his life, including the very end? > metta, stephen > He continued to meditate after becoming an arahat both because it is a pleasant abiding, and as a good example for those that follow. TG 16163 From: Date: Tue Oct 8, 2002 1:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Why did the Buddha meditate? Hi, TG (and Stephen) - In a message dated 10/8/02 8:23:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > In a message dated 10/8/2002 9:08:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > oreznoone@a... writes: > > > > Hello all, > > (If meditation is instrumental, for the attainment of an end) Why did the > > > Buddha meditate throughout his life, including the very end? > > metta, stephen > > > > He continued to meditate after becoming an arahat both because it is a > pleasant abiding, and as a good example for those that follow. > > TG > > > ============================= Stephen's question has occurred to me as well. Your answer of serving as an example is one I find plausible but not strong. The answer of being a pleasant abiding, however, doesn't make sense to me at all. The Buddha was already free of all dukkha. He was pristine - clear of all defilements. What could he have required? Is it that the condition of an arahant/buddha when in day-to-day mode is still imperfect? If so, how? I do find this confusing. One thought is that the Buddha meditated to enter states wherein he could access information or exercise iddhis that would be useful for certain purposes. Perhaps that is grasping at straws, perhaps not. Ideas anyone? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16164 From: Date: Tue Oct 8, 2002 5:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 10, Comm. Dear group, I've been comparing the footnotes from other translations of Satipatthana Sutta. Here's an interesting one from B. Bodhi: "Though there is neither canonical nor commentarial basis for this view, it might be maintained that satipatthana is called ekayana magga, the direct path, to distinguish it from the approach to meditative attainment that proceeds through the jhanas or brahmaviharas. While the latter can lead to Nibbana, they do not do so necessarily but can lead to sidetracks, whereas satipatthana leads invariably to the final goal." L: Why is this? I would say because panna is a necessary part of satipatthana. Since we have a working definition of sati it might help to research a similar thorough analysis of "panna". Off hand, I would say panna is the experience of one of the three characteristics (anicca, dukkha, anatta) as a characteristic of the object. Is this at least in the ball park? What else do we need to know about panna and why satipatthana invariably leads to the final goal? Larry 16165 From: Date: Tue Oct 8, 2002 2:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Why did the Buddha meditate? TGrand458@a... writes: >He continued to meditate after becoming an arahat both because it is a >pleasant abiding, and as a good example for those that follow. >TG Why did the Buddha need a pleasant abiding? If meditation is instrumental / a means to an end, and the Buddha was enlightened (let's say the last is a given to those that follow), then how was meditating setting an example? Since this may sound like I'm just being argumentative I'll suggest that perhaps, and I'm wondering, if meditation is not instrumental, but an end in itself. I thank you for your reply, metta, stephen 16166 From: selamat at cbn Date: Tue Oct 8, 2002 6:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Why did the Buddha meditate? as I know, the Buddha only sleep 2 hours a day, and 22 hours teaching Dhamma and daily routine for eating, excreting, bathing. So for 22 hours continuously live in mindfulness. What kind of meditation do you mean? ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 8:02 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Why did the Buddha meditate? > > TGrand458@a... writes: > > >He continued to meditate after becoming an arahat both because it is a > >pleasant abiding, and as a good example for those that follow. > >TG > Why did the Buddha need a pleasant abiding? > If meditation is instrumental / a means to an end, and the Buddha was > enlightened (let's say the last is a given to those that follow), then how > was meditating setting an example? > Since this may sound like I'm just being argumentative I'll suggest that > perhaps, and I'm wondering, if meditation is not instrumental, but an end in > itself. > I thank you for your reply, > metta, stephen > > 16167 From: Antony Woods Date: Tue Oct 8, 2002 6:56pm Subject: Re: Why did the Buddha meditate? Dear Stephen, TG, Howard and all, Ven Mahasi Sayadaw said in "Fundamentals of Vipassana Meditation": "One of the benefits the Arahant receives by meditating on the five aggregates is living with happiness in this world. Notwithstanding his being an Arahant, if he remains without meditation, disquiet and discomfort keep coming up at the six sense-doors, now here, now there. Here, disquiet does not mean mental distress. As the sense-objects keep coming up despite himself, he finds no peacefulness of mind. That is all. Not to speak of, even our meditators of today who are immersed in the practice feel ill at ease when meeting with the sense objects. As they return home from the meditation centre, they see this thing, hear that thing, get engaged in such and such business talks, and there is no peace at all. So they come back to the centre. To others however, the disquiet does not last very long. Just four, five or ten days. Very soon the homely spirit gets the better of them and they are happy with their home life and set to household cares again. The Arahant never returns to his old habits. If he meets with various sense-objects without meditation, only disquiet results. Only when he is absorbed in insight meditation does he find peacefulness of mind. Thus meditating on the five aggregates of grasping brings to the living with happiness in this world. Again, as he lives in earnest meditation, mindfulness and comprehension of the impermanence, suffering and not-self keep rising in him. This is another benefit. The Arahant in whom mindfulness and comprehension keep rising through meditation is said to be called satata-vihari (one who dwells with meditation constantly). Such a one can enjoy the attainment to fruition at any time and for as long as he desires. For these two benefits- a happy living in the very life and mindfulness and comprehension the Arahant lives in meditation." ftp://ftp.buddhanet.net/medbud/mahasifv.zip 16168 From: Date: Tue Oct 8, 2002 3:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Why did the Buddha meditate? Hi, Antony - In a message dated 10/8/02 9:57:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, antony272b@h... writes: > Dear Stephen, TG, Howard and all, > > Ven Mahasi Sayadaw said in "Fundamentals of Vipassana Meditation": > > "One of the benefits the Arahant receives by meditating on the > five aggregates is living with happiness in this world. > Notwithstanding his being an Arahant, if he remains without > meditation, disquiet and discomfort keep coming up at the six > sense-doors, now here, now there. Here, disquiet does not mean > mental distress. As the sense-objects keep coming up despite > himself, he finds no peacefulness of mind. That is all > > > ============================ With due respect to the Sayadaw, this makes no sense to me. If there is no mental distress - and there should be none, why would the Buddha care - why would he need to change things? If an arahant is not at peace with the way things are, if he needs to run from disquiet and discomfort, that is dukkha, and he is no arahant! When conditions make certain useful activiries difficult or impossible, it is reasonable that an arahant would choose to change the conditions. That makes sense to me. But that's all. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16169 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Tue Oct 8, 2002 7:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Back to Frank (was: Episode II: Vedana [Howard]) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Hi Frank, > . Rob K* just gave the example > of vomitting. There are the moments of unpleasant bodily experience, but > then so many, many moments of aversion and unpleasant feeling about these > short moments of vipaka. It can be tested out. > ..... > > ==== > *Rob, hope you're fully recovered and our sympathies for your internet > losses too. > > > _________ Yes, Sarah quite healthy . I can get to my internet now by going to a yahoo site in Europe then opening my account and the going to email - a backdoor yahoo came up with as they cant fix my account fully yet. On the illness: it seems to me that it is more 'strange' when the elements are in balance (i.e when not feeling ill) than when they are out of balance. When we consider the complexity of the conditions needed for nama and rupa to arise in this human plane it is really a miracle (I think) when I wake up still alive each morning. How long can it go on? So I think illness should be seen as a big chance to reflect on death and also to study directly the different types of feelings -and other dhammas that are occuring. Although possibly Acharn Sujin would say this statement is a little suspect as it might imply being negligent at the more common times when everything is going (apparently)well. Robert 16170 From: Date: Tue Oct 8, 2002 8:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Why did the Buddha meditate? I think arahats meditate to experience nibbana. Isn't there something on this in ADL? In addition to that the Buddha's mastery of jhana was something of a feat. Perhaps there are something like aesthetic reasons for cultivating this. Or perhaps it benefits the environment now and in the future. A mahayanist would say everything he did was for all others. Larry 16171 From: Jim Anderson Date: Tue Oct 8, 2002 8:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 10, Comm. Dear Group, Here are some critical remarks on Soma's translation of the commentary. On the title page of The Way of Mindfulness one reads the following: << A translation of the Satipatthana Sutta of the Majjhima Nikaya; its Commentary, the Satipatthana Sutta Vannana of the Papañcasudani of Buddhaghosa Thera; and excerpts from the Linatthapakasana Tika, Marginal Notes, of Dhammapala Thera on the Commentary. >> which would lead one to believe that Buddhaghosa's commentary on this sutta has been translated in full. However upon comparing the translation with the Pali text one will find a number of parts have been omitted. There are even some lines inserted that are not found in the Pali. Also note the following in the translator's note in spite of what it says on the title page: << The details and the spirit of the method are shown in the commentary-excerpts translated here. >> Immediately after the following part: << But on being questioned if she said that she was practicing such and such an Arousing of Mindfulness, then she was praised thus: "Well done, well done! Your life is blessed; you are really one who has attained to the human state; for you the Sammasambuddhas have come to be." >> almost a full page has been omitted. The commentary explains here that animals that depend on humans can also engage in the practice of satipatthana as illustrated by a story about a young parrot trained by a mahatheri to contemplate on 'bone'. A comment on the following: << Or it is "the only way" because it has to be trodden by oneself only [ekeneva ayitabbo]. That is without a companion. The state of being companionless is twofold: without a comrade, after abandoning contact with the crowd, and in the sense of being withdrawn (or secluded) from craving, through tranquillity of mind. >> I think "the only way" is misleading. The translation is based on the above alternative meaning of the compound word 'ekaayano' (ekeneva ayitabbo). The "only" comes from the 'eva' (missing in the PTS & CSCD ed.) following 'ekena'. Soma's translation in the sutta ('this is the only way' for ekaayano aya.m... maggo) is also based on it. I think (allowing for other possible & similar ways of translating) 'To be travelled (or followed) by oneself is this path (magga)' for the purification of beings, etc. in my opinion comes much closer to the meaning intended by the commentary which Soma gives but does not show it with "the only way". If any one is interested in downloading a copy of the Buddha Jayanti Tipitaka (Sinhalese) version of the Satipa.t.thana Sutta and/or Buddhaghosa's commentary (CSCD vers.) on the same please go to the following website: http://ca.geocities.com/palistudy/ These texts are in Pali using the Velthuis scheme for displaying special Pali characters without the need for installing a Pali font. They're in RTF format and readable in a word program such as WordPad and I think they can be read by Mac users as well. I have hardly proofread them so some errors such as Pali capitals not being converted may be seen but on the whole I think these texts are fairly reliable. Best wishes. Jim 16172 From: Date: Tue Oct 8, 2002 9:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Why did the Buddha meditate? No doubt sometimes when he was seemingly meditating he was really visiting other realms, teaching the Dhamma to a different class of being. Larry 16173 From: Date: Tue Oct 8, 2002 5:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 10, Comm. Hello Jim, >I think "the only way" is misleading. The translation is based on the >above alternative meaning of the compound word 'ekaayano' (ekeneva >ayitabbo). The "only" comes from the 'eva' (missing in the PTS & CSCD >ed.) following 'ekena'. Soma's translation in the sutta ('this is the >only way' for ekaayano aya.m... maggo) is also based on it. I think >(allowing for other possible & similar ways of translating) 'To be >travelled (or followed) by oneself is this path (magga)' for >the purification of beings, etc. in my opinion comes much closer to >the meaning intended by the commentary which Soma gives but does not >show it with "the only way". I like your translation. But why not simply: "One (eka) way (yana)?" This is almost the virtual opposite of "the only way." metta, stephen 16174 From: Jim Anderson Date: Tue Oct 8, 2002 9:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 10, Comm. Dear Group, Please disregard my comment below. "the only way" is fine and is based on the first interpretation of the one, single, or sole way. My mistake, Jim > A comment on the following: > > << Or it is "the only way" because it has to be trodden by oneself > only [ekeneva ayitabbo]. That is without a companion. The state of > being companionless is twofold: without a comrade, after abandoning > contact with the crowd, and in the sense of being withdrawn (or > secluded) from craving, through tranquillity of mind. >> > > I think "the only way" is misleading. The translation is based on the > above alternative meaning of the compound word 'ekaayano' (ekeneva > ayitabbo). The "only" comes from the 'eva' (missing in the PTS & CSCD > ed.) following 'ekena'. Soma's translation in the sutta ('this is the > only way' for ekaayano aya.m... maggo) is also based on it. I think > (allowing for other possible & similar ways of translating) 'To be > travelled (or followed) by oneself is this path (magga)' for > the purification of beings, etc. in my opinion comes much closer to > the meaning intended by the commentary which Soma gives but does not > show it with "the only way". 16175 From: Jim Anderson Date: Tue Oct 8, 2002 10:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 10, Comm. Hello Stephen, > I like your translation. > But why not simply: "One (eka) way (yana)?" This is almost the > virtual opposite of "the only way." > metta, stephen "One way, monks, is this path" sounds alright to me. In the Tipitaka 'ekaayano' (eka+ayana) usually occurs in association with the four satipatthanas and the commentary here says that there is only one way, not two. However, from a look at the Asankhatasamyutta (SN XLIII) one gets the impression that there are many paths leading to nibbaana including satipatthana. It's somewhat confusing. Jim 16176 From: ajahn_paul Date: Wed Oct 9, 2002 1:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] May I know where r u guys come from? --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Hi Paul, > > > --- ajahn_paul wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > > > Yes, i was born in Hong Kong, been to Canada for few yrs when i was a > > teenager. Been to Thailand for few weeks! :) > > > > i started learning Buddhism when i was 14, the Mahayana way. And i > > had spent more than 2 yrs in learning the Tibetan Buddhism, it was > > more than 8 yrs ago! Few yrs ago, i found that the Theravada > > Buddhism is more systematic, and more realistic, so.... i starting > > from anapana.... then vipassana... > ..... > This is all very interesting and quite unusual, especially in Hong > Kong;-) may be caused by some good kamma from previous lives! :) > ... > > but,,, reading english is still not easy for me,,, and of course > > learning Pali is even harder! and thats why i have 2 books at the > > same time, one is in english version, and the other one is in chinese > > version, just like "Visuddhimagga"! hahaa ^_~ > .... > Well your written English is fine and I'm sure you're being modest. Has > the Visuddhimagga been translated into Chinese? What about the rest of the > Pali canon? I'm sure I've been told all this, but have forgotten. yes, i guess the english version was done at around 1953, and the chinese version started from 1957, and finally fully completed at1980! and some others had been translated to chinese too,, but i dont know the english or pali name for that! hahaha > > Wish can learn more from this group! > ..... > We'll be glad to hear any of your comments or questions and you're most > welcome to ask for any clarification of any topics or posts that are too > difficult to follow. Under Useful Posts, there are also some messages > under New to the List and Pali which may be of interest to you or other > newbies here: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ > > Thanks for the info, hope to meet you later too.(din wa hai: 23697624). > Also let me know off-list if you wish to have details of B.Bodhi's talk in > Hong Kong next week. well,,, whats all about? in english? can u give me more details on that? Thanks! ^_^ Paul 16177 From: ajahn_paul Date: Wed Oct 9, 2002 1:52am Subject: [dsg] Re: Why did the Buddha meditate? Stevphen, i think the concept is wrong at the first place,,, r we trying to get something from meditating? on the other hand, where is the [end] of being a Buddhist, or the [end] of learning Buddhism? even we wont take [Nibbana] as an end, so why an Arahant is the end of that? By the way, Buddha never said meditation is a must, if u take any of his teaching is a must to be Vimutti, u r not with him at all! *sorry if my english confuse u! ^_~ 16178 From: Sarah Date: Wed Oct 9, 2002 2:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Musings on Children & the Dhamma Hi Erik, Like everyone else here, I was sorry to hear about your difficulties, but glad to read comments like this: ..... > I have also found it most helpful during this time to bring to mind > again and again the inspiration provided by the Buddha and the > Bodhisattvas, to keep going, no matter how many difficulties or > obstacles arise, as these are mere mental projections arising in > dependence on kamma, and we can't do a damned thing about vipaka > anyway. ..... and: ..... > Just posting this message here among my DSG friends is therapeutic > right now; it's really helping me get my mind back and focused in on > the core of the Dhamma, what matters and what doesn't. ..... I find the same. Writing and hearing and reading dhamma can give us the reminders we often forget at these times. I’ve also appreciated others’ responses. I think Eath is exactly right when she points to the expectations as leading to the unhappiness. It’s so very easy to have expectations in times of difficulty of family, friends, colleagues, bureaucrats, teachers and even past merit as you suggested. Perhaps greatest of all are the expectations we have of ourselves, forgetting entirely that what we take for ourselves are merely conditioned namas and rupas ‘fashioned like a doll’. We have ideas about how much equipoise should be maintained or how our speech should always be just right. We regret not having more mindfulness or having indulged in useless activities, wasting time in the past. Doesn’t this kind of regret and wishful thinking and expectation merely show up the clinging to self, the clinging to having kusala at all times, the clinging to practice and the aversion to seeing the accumulated tendencies as they really are when tested? If we don’t see them at these times, we might kid ourselves we are better or beyond such reactions, so with a little honesty we may be glad to see the kilesa (defilements) for what they are. We don’t need to add to the pressures and burdens of life by demanding more of ourselves than is possible. Better to just know what is conditioned already. After all, the kilesa have been accumulated for so many aeons and we all have our particular ‘trigger buttons’ for dosa (aversion) and other unwholesome states. Indeed, I can relate to yours very easily;-( I’m glad to read your reminders about appreciating that the test or the ‘burning’ is only ever at the present moment and this is only ever the chance for practice. As Eath said: “Cut off any hope for results and just do the right thing.” ‘Doing the right thing’, as I understand, may just be a moment of understanding and being aware of the kilesa conditoned now. Rob M talked about the wishing and hoping in his meditation practice. Understanding and accepting the wishing helps a lot. If one kids oneself there’s no wishing, how can it ever be known? Sometimes it may seem that there’s no progress and the kilesa are as prevalent as ever. Thinking like this and minding, shows the wishing and clinging again. As we’ve read in the suttas, like the one about the hen sitting on the eggs*, the results will come in spite of and not because of the wishing. As Rob K just hinted, the more subtle expectation or idea of a suitable time for practice can slip in very easily and only sati and panna can know it and see how it takes one away from the present moment and present reality. Anyway, I hope by now, you’re all enjoying some pleasant experiences as well. As Jon said, we seldom complain about the attachment at these times or regret the lost opportunities for practice when life is going as we like;-) Perhaps one day, you’ll write a good film script of your lives, Erik. Meanwhile, I always appreciate that no matter how trying life is for you, you always find time to wish us and all others well and free from suffering. Best wishes as always and of course there is 'burning' at each moment: "Just as a man whose clothes or turban are on fire would apply his utmost zeal and energy, effort and exertion, as well as mindfulness and clear comprehension, so that he may extinguish the fire; even so, the monk should apply his utmost zeal and energy...for the abandoning of those evil, unwholesome qualities.” (‘Self Examination’, AN, Bk of Tens,51, B.Bodhi transl) ***** Sarah ==== *http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-101.html 16179 From: Sarah Date: Wed Oct 9, 2002 3:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Today's Class Hi Rob M and other 'light' posters, --- robmoult wrote: > Hi All, > > I presented the discussion of 'visible object' and 'light' in class > as an unresolved issue. ..... I know this is no longer a concern for you until next year's lecture on rupas;-), but I meant to add one more comment to all the others: In brief, I think there are two uses of light in your comments: 1. Light as referred to in the texts as a condition for seeing refers to 'aloka' (light) as Jim and I discussed, as in sunlight and acting as decisibe support condition. You can read about other decisive support conditions for the other kinds of sense experiencing. 2. Light as referring to visible object as in 'light and dim'. Nina pointed out the passages in the Atthasalini (transl p415 f). Visible object is just what is seen and of course what is seen may be light, dim, like this or like that - just as it is. As people have pointed out, even when it's dark, if our eyes are open there may be visible objects appearing. "Thus all visible objects, though of different sorts, such as blue-green etc, are not specifically divided as regards their characteristics etc. For all this matter has the characteristic of striking the eye, the function or property of being in the relation of object to visual cognition, the manifestation of being the field of visual cognition, the proximate cause of the four great essentials." In other words, as soon as we start talking about seeing 'light' or 'colours' or 'shapes' or anything other than just visible object, just that which is seen, ideas and concepts start to be introduced. This is not to suggest that with mindfulness, visible object is any different from when it is seen without mindfulness. As soon as there is an idea of physics or particles/photons, it is not awareness of visible object as seen at this moment. Physics can never help the development of awareness. Sound makes the list, by the way, because it is the rupa which is heard. Again, whether it is high or low or loud or soft, it is just sound, heard by hearing consciousness. Of course there have to be different sounds, otherwise there would be no conditions for thinking about different concepts and no way of managing or living. ..... >The class was a little fast paced, because I > wanted to cover all 28 rupas in one class. I think it came across as > a little technical, not one of the more interesting classes as it > was difficult to relate much of the material to daily life. .... Everything we find so important in life and hold so dear just depends on the vipaka cittas experiencing rupas through the sense doors. Like in Erik's account, there is a short moment of seeing visible object or hearing sound and then all the ideas about what has been seen or heard and the attachments and aversions on their account. Sudying more about rupas can be a condition to understand more about anatta and the value of guarding the sense doors. Thankyou for letting us know about your lecture and project for printing of books by the class. Sarah ===== 16180 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 9, 2002 10:01am Subject: Perfections, Energy, Ch 6, no. 3 Perfections, Energy, Ch 6, no. 3 We can verify the characteristic of viriya by the following explanation of the ³Expositor² about the controlling faculty, the indriya, of viriya: Viriya is the state of a courageous or energetic man, or it is the action of the energetic, or it is that which should be effected, carried out by method or suitable means. From its overcoming idleness it is a controlling faculty (indriya) in the sense of predominance. Or, it exercises government with the characteristic of grasp. Combined with ³faculty² there is the compound: ²energy-faculty². Its characteristic is strengthening, and grasp, or support. When there is viriya, someone has the courage to speak, to say what is right, or to act in a wholesome way, not being afraid of trouble, difficulties, or even of losing possessions and becoming poor. This is the characteristic of viriya. Or someone has the courage to explain with regard to the Dhamma the causes which bring their appropriate effects, without paying attention to the fact that he will not be liked by foolish people, or that others will have wrong understanding of his good intention. Someone who is courageous will do what is right with regard to worldly matters as well as Dhamma, because Dhamma is Dhamma: it cannot be changed, it is the truth. All people have viriya, but if the Dhamma had not been taught the characteristic and the different aspects of viriya could not be known. Viriya has been explained as controlling faculty, indriya, because it is predominant as a support for the conascent dhammas. Whenever kusala citta arises and someone performs an action with patience and diligence, there is viriya cetasika which gives support at such a moment. One can perform one¹s task without becoming disheartened. As we read in the definition of the controlling faculty, the indriya, of viriya, its characteristic is strengthening and giving support. If one develops paññå one is supported by viriya so that one does not decline from the development of paññå and all kusala dhammas. The ³Expositor²(120) uses the simile of an old house that is strengthened and supported by new pillars. Evenso, when someone is supported by viriya, kusala dhammas will not decline in him. If someone at this moment is bored, lazy, drowsy or disheartened, he should know that he is like an old building that is dilapidated, because he is not able to be firm in kusala and to apply himself to it. Viriya cetasika has the characteristic of strengthening and supporting just as a pillar supports an old house so that it is stable. Thus we see the characteristic of support of viriya. The ³Expositor² uses several similes so that we can understand the characteristic of viriya cetasika that arises at this moment. We read in the ³Expositor² (121): As a small army going to battle might be repulsed; then they would tell the king. The king would send a strong reinforcement. The king¹s army, being thus supported, would defeat the hostile army. Thus energy does not allow associated states to recede, to retreat; it uplifts, supports them. Hence has it been said that energy has the characteristic of supporting. 16181 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Oct 9, 2002 1:34pm Subject: Dukkha - suffering Dear Group, Sometimes, I think, we can become de-sensitised to real meaning in life by the use of Buddhist terms .... Sometimes Pali serves to 'sanitise' the pain, ugliness and evil of the world. We talk in generalities about 'everything' being dukkha suffering, and this can serve to keep it at a distance, we intellectualise it, and make it just a topic for discussion, with quote and counter quote. But what does it matter what someone said two thousand years ago, or eight hundred years ago? They don't live here and now with our set of conditions, our capabilities for destruction, our selfish, petty indifference to others. Usually I have difficulty with comprehending anatta - but just lately I'm troubled by the immensity of Suffering, the suffocating despair that overwhelms many, the senseless ever growing evil and violence that permeates societies. Usually, I have hope for the individuals I try to serve - I once found it easy to have compassion, it just naturally arose for all, perpetrator or victim. But lately, I feel like that person with their finger in the hole in the dyke, trying to keep the open sea from engulfing the town. I wonder why with such organised, educated, regulated societies suffering, stupidity, cruelty and hatred grows. You know - mostly just calling the events behind pain and suffering 'a story' doesn't work for me, mostly reminders that there is really 'no-one' who is suffering, or that if the 'no-one' actually 'thinks' they are suffering they have inherited the consequences of their own previous kamma - just seems like a 'blame the victim' game. Saying the pain only exist for a billionth of a second isn't comprehendible, and sometimes feels like mental gymnastics - physical or mental agony lasts, it doesn't need to be cultivated, it doesn't only result from deliberating about it. Bhikkhu Bodhi says that the great affirmation of the Buddha is the teaching that Suffering can be totally overcome. (But not quickly or easily it seems). The first Truth is to be understood. The second Truth is to be abandoned. The third Truth is to be realised. The fourth Truth is to be developed. But the talk is of aeons .... The talk is of the rarity of human birth, and the fewness of the chances, the very high likelihood of slipping back ... it seems we are in a trap and there are only two choices, give up or continue the grinding, endless effort to free ourselves. So far, this slight understanding of the First Truth is just a crushing burden ... where is there comfort and consolation in Buddhism? There seems to be no Buddhist equivalent to the balm of Christian solace in ... "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." Matthew 11:28-30 metta, Christine 16182 From: Date: Wed Oct 9, 2002 3:53pm Subject: Way 11, Comm "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html Continuing commentary on "This is the only way, o bhikkus." In what sense is it a "way"? In the sense of the path going towards Nibbana, and in the sense of the path which is the one that should be (or is fit to be) traversed by those who wish to reach Nibbana. Regarding "the only way" there is the following account of a discussion that took place long ago. The Elder Tipitaka Culla Naga said: "The Way of Mindfulness-arousing (as expounded in our Discourse) is the (mundane) preliminary part (of the Eightfold Way)." His teacher the Elder Culla Summa said: "The Way is a mixed one (a way that is both mundane and supramundane)." The pupil: "Reverend Sir, it is the preliminary part." The teacher: "Friend, it is the mixed Way." As the teacher was insistent, the pupil became silent. They went away without coming to a decision. On the way to the bathing place the teacher considered the matter. He recited the Discourse. When he came to the part where it is said: "O bhikkhus, should any person maintain the Four Arousings of Mindfulness in this manner for seven years," he concluded that after producing the consciousness of the Supramundane Path there was no possibility of continuing in that state of mind for seven years, and that his pupil, Culla Naga, was right. On that very day, which happened to be the eighth of the lunar fortnight, it was the elder Culla Naga's turn to expound the Dhamma. When the exposition was about to begin, the Elder Culla Summa went to the Hall of Preaching and stood behind the pulpit. After the pupil had recited the preliminary stanzas the teacher spoke to the pupil in the hearing of others, saying, "Friend, Culla Naga." The pupil heard the voice of his teacher and replied: "What is it, Reverend Sir?" The teacher said this: "To say, as I did, that the Way is a mixed one is not right. You are right in calling it the preliminary part of the Way of Mindfulness-arousing." Thus the Elders of old were not envious and did not go about holding up only what they liked as though it were a bundle of sugar-cane. They took up what was rational; they gave up what was not. Thereupon, the pupil, realising that on a point on which experts of the Dhamma like his learned teacher had floundered, fellows of the holy life in the future were more likely to be unsure, thought: "With the authority of a citation from the Discourse-collection, I will settle this question." Therefore, he brought out and placed before his hearers the following statement from the Patisambhida Magga: "The preliminary part of the Way of Mindfulness-arousing is called the only way."[8] And, in order to elaborate just that and to show of which path or way the instruction in our Discourse is the preliminary part, he further quoted the following also from the Patisambhida Magga: "The Excellent Way is the Eightfold way; four are truths; dispassion is the best of things belonging to the wise; besides that Way there is no other for the purifying of vision. Walk along that Way so that you may confound Death, and put an end to suffering."[9] -------------- Footnotes: 8. Not found in the Patisambhida Magga. 9. Not found in the Patisambhida Magga; these are verses 273-275 of the Dhammapada. 16183 From: Date: Wed Oct 9, 2002 4:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 10, Comm. Dear Jim and all, It occured to me that in english "way" has two meanings: method and path. And in the vajrayana "yana" is usually translated as "vehicle", meaning the vehicle that traverses the path. Therefore could this plausibly mean that whatever path is taken (jhana or dry insight, for example), satipatthana is the vehicle (basic technique?) employed? Could this even be extended to imply that satipatthana is what is "samma" (right) about each of the "folds" in the 8-fold path? Larry ----------------- Jim: ""One way, monks, is this path" sounds alright to me. In the Tipitaka 'ekaayano' (eka+ayana) usually occurs in association with the four satipatthanas and the commentary here says that there is only one way, not two. However, from a look at the Asankhatasamyutta (SN XLIII) one gets the impression that there are many paths leading to nibbaana including satipatthana. It's somewhat confusing." 16184 From: Date: Wed Oct 9, 2002 4:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 11, Comm Hi all, Could someone explain this piece of the commentary (#11)? I'm just not getting it. thanks, Larry 16185 From: Date: Wed Oct 9, 2002 3:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dukkha - suffering Hi, Christine - In a message dated 10/9/02 4:36:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > > Dear Group, > > Sometimes, I think, we can become de-sensitised to real meaning in > life by the use of Buddhist terms .... Sometimes Pali serves > to 'sanitise' the pain, ugliness and evil of the world. We talk in > generalities about 'everything' being dukkha suffering, and this can > serve to keep it at a distance, we intellectualise it, and make it > just a topic for discussion, with quote and counter quote. But what > does it matter what someone said two thousand years ago, or eight > hundred years ago? They don't live here and now with our set of > conditions, our capabilities for destruction, our selfish, petty > indifference to others. > Usually I have difficulty with comprehending anatta - but just lately > I'm troubled by the immensity of Suffering, the suffocating despair > that overwhelms many, the senseless ever growing evil and violence > that permeates societies. Usually, I have hope for the individuals I > try to serve - I once found it easy to have compassion, it just > naturally arose for all, perpetrator or victim. > But lately, I feel like that person with their finger in the hole in > the dyke, trying to keep the open sea from engulfing the town. I > wonder why with such organised, educated, regulated societies > suffering, stupidity, cruelty and hatred grows. You know - mostly > just calling the events behind pain and suffering 'a story' doesn't > work for me, mostly reminders that there is really 'no-one' who is > suffering, or that if the 'no-one' actually 'thinks' they are > suffering they have inherited the consequences of their own previous > kamma - just seems like a 'blame the victim' game. Saying the pain > only exist for a billionth of a second isn't comprehendible, and > sometimes feels like mental gymnastics - physical or mental agony > lasts, it doesn't need to be cultivated, it doesn't only result from > deliberating about it. > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree with you here, Christine. Suffering is the core of our life, and should be clearly seen, without sanitizing. We don't always see that unless we look carefully and note that even what is pleasant is ultimately unsatisfactory. And REAL suffering is never very far away. Disappointments of all sorts beset us. Friends and loved ones get sick and die! The loss is enormous and terrible. Unless we are saints, we cannot escape the enormity of suffering. This is why the Dhamma is so desperately important! ------------------------------------------------------- > > Bhikkhu Bodhi says that the great affirmation of the Buddha is the > teaching that Suffering can be totally overcome. (But not quickly or > easily it seems). The first Truth is to be understood. The second > Truth is to be abandoned. The third Truth is to be realised. The > fourth Truth is to be developed. But the talk is of aeons .... The > talk is of the rarity of human birth, and the fewness of the chances, > the very high likelihood of slipping back ... it seems we are in a > trap and there are only two choices, give up or continue the > grinding, endless effort to free ourselves. > So far, this slight understanding of the First Truth is just a > crushing burden ... where is there comfort and consolation in > Buddhism? There seems to be no Buddhist equivalent to the balm of > Christian solace in ... > "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I > will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; > for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto > your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." Matthew > 11:28-30 > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Here I disagree. In my opinion. the Dhamma has something going for it that makes it superior, namely *the truth*. And there is more to be said: Yes, the talk is of aeons. But aeons have already passed! We are now practicing the Dhamma. That is already auspicious and bodes well for "good" births. And an awakening can come at any time!! Just as the Mahayanists say that the poor beggar approaching us could be Manjushri, the bodhisattva of wisdom, or Avalokitesvara, the bodhisattva of compassion, and the Jewish Cabbalists and Chassids say that that very same beggar could be the prophet Elijah about to announce the coming of the Messiah, the Elders of the Dhamma tell us that AT ANY TIME, conditions may be right to lead us directly into joyous liberation and to the *true* peace that passeth understanding. And meanwhile, right here and now, the jhanas are available to us, if we but put in the time and effort, as more than mere pleasant abidings and safe havens. These are as real as any Christian peace, and short of nibbana, the jhanas are the quintessence of joy and peace. Also, while final release *may* be far off, treading the Buddha's path brings a peace and wisdom even now that is not possible by other means. We shouldn't despair, I think, but should be grateful for having had the opportunity to come across the Dhamma in this auspicious human life of ours, and we should make the most of it. Now is the time, I think, to do all we can: to train under a kalyanamitta who has gone far if possible, and, as best we can, and however we can, to persevere in our practice. --------------------------------------------------------- > > metta, > Christine > > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16186 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Oct 9, 2002 11:14pm Subject: Re: Dukkha - suffering Hi Christine, Do I detect possum-stirring? --------- > ... it seems we are in a trap and there are only two choices, give up or continue the grinding, endless effort to free ourselves. > ------------------ Yes, while we are not seeing the middle way (which is often), we are caught up in these two extremes. -------------------------- > So far, this slight understanding of the First Truth is just a crushing burden > --------------------- By "so far," I take you to mean "before taking into account the middle way." I'm not sure it is helpful to contemplate dukkha in isolation from the Way out. ---------------------- > where is there comfort and consolation in Buddhism? > ---------------------- What could be better than satipatthana? But then you're not talking about that are you; I think you are putting forward the case for the worldling would-be disciple. It's tough for us but it's ignorance and craving, not Buddhism, that makes it tough. ------------------ > There seems to be no Buddhist equivalent to the balm of Christian solace > ----------------- Our fragile grasp of the truth, merely intellectual though it may be, is far superior to the wishful thinking of religion. Even when we are down in the dumps, you and I don't turn to an unseen god -- we stick with our Dhamma study. We must find some comfort in it :-) Sorry I couldn't be more helpful, Ken H 16187 From: Sarah Date: Thu Oct 10, 2002 0:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 10, Comm. Dear Jim, Your comments always encourage me to consider more: --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Recently, I was studying the Pali word apilaapana which is one of the > terms used to define the characteristic of sati. It's usually > translated as non-floating which is based on taking it to be derived > from a + pilaapana (plaavana in Skt.) which agrees with the > commentaries but according to a research article by K.R. Norman in the > Journal of the Pali Text Society, Vol. XII and with a sutta to back it > up it's possible that the derivation is in fact api (a prefix) + > laapana with a meaning of reminding, remembering by reciting, calling > to mind and the new Cone dictionary is following Norman on this > instead of the commentaries. .... I was a little interested and a little concerned when I read this - concerned as I wondered if the dictionaries are now not being guided by the commentaries when in doubt. Which is the sutta Norman refers to and is it possible that there are the two meanings (dep. on context) or even a play on the word? I’ve just done a very little checking of my own. In the Atthasalini transl, as we’re used to, we’re given ‘not floating away’ and the sub-commentary note which Rob M added recently of “Not allowing any loating away, as of a pumpkin in a stream. It does not suffer the object to slip, but keeps it steady as a rock.” In the Netti transl.by Nanamoli we are given this footnote: “ ‘Apilaapana -non-floating away’:Not as in PED for all Netti and similar refs. The word is the same as the abstract form apiilapanataa (i.e, a+pilaapana+taa:see PED) and is glossed by NettiA with ogaahana. the root is plu (to swim or float), not lap; see PED pilovati, and also CPD. Mindfulness is regarded as keeping in mind ‘anchored’ on its object and preventing it from ‘floating away’ from it.” I find a similar explanation in IB Horner’s Qus of K.Milinda for sati. ***** I’ve just been pulling out a map and a history book on India to locate the Kuru country, having been given clues in the footnote to Way 10. It seems the area is a little to the north of Delhi and I think a little cooler than Delhi in summer and milder than places like Dehra Dun and Simla (further north) in winter. (end of geography lesson;-)) It was interesting how the Kuru people came to be here and as we read, were already ‘earnest’ in sati in ‘their daily life’, including the servants. I think this is an important comment in understanding how or why these people were ‘ripe’ or ‘selected’ to hear the details. ***** “One way, monks, is this path”. The Kurus would have appreciated that the path “proceeds (or exists) only in this Doctrine-and-discipline and not in any other” as when we are told the Buddha declared “Subhadda, only in this doctrine-and-discipline is the Eightfold Way to be found.” Satipatthana is the only way or single way for realizing the 4 Noble Truths. I don’t agree with B.Bodhi’s comment that Larry quoted about it referring to a direct way as opposed to an ‘approach to meditative attainment that proceeds through the jhanas....’. I’m not surprised there isn’t any canonical support for this idea. Whether jhanas are attained or not, satipatthana and the development of insight is ‘the only way’ to full liberation or nibbana. Jim, I just looked at SN43, Asankhatasamyutta which you referred to as being ‘somewhat confusing’ in this light.I don’t read there being many paths, but various aspects of the same path, eg 4 Foundations of Mindfulness, 4 Rt Efforts, Enlightenment Factors, 8fold path, Faculties, Powers and so on. They are not alternatives as I understand but I agree that taken on its own - especially the first segment - it is rather misleading. This is why I don’t think suttas can be taken ‘on their own’. I really appreciate your comments on Soma’s translation and was intrigued by the comment about the part misssed out with regard to the parrot.Could the Kuru pets really develop satipatthana? Don’t we read elsewhere that it’s impossible in the animal realms? I was expecting Christine to take great joy in this comment;-) I’m really interested to hear more sometime. Did he hear about satipatthana from the Mahatheri? It must be highly exceptional. I hope one day there is a complete translation. Many thanks indeed for your contributions like this. Sarah ==== 16188 From: Sarah Date: Thu Oct 10, 2002 0:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 11, Comm Hi Larry, You asked about the commentary (#11). I think it’s clear that by ‘way’ is meant ‘path’ and not vehicle or technique. It refers to the 5fold or 8fold path and to the development of satipatthana. The development of satipathana leads to the various levels of insight and eventually to the first realization of nibbana by the sotapanna. The last segment (#10) indicated that it is the mundane rather than the supramundane Path which is being referred to in the sutta and refers to ‘repetition of practice’. The two Elders in this extract discuss this point and the ‘pupil’ turns out to be right and introduces suttas to show there is only one way ‘for the purifying of vision’ and so on. In other words, there is only one way to realize the 4 Noble Truths and that is by the following the mundane path of satipatthana (until sotapatti magga). Btw, panna must accompany satipatthana. As we read, “All these are implied when the Arousing of Mindfulness is mentioned, because these factors exist in union with mindfulness.” Initially, as we’ve discussed before, panna has to know different namas and rupas before the tri-lakkhana can be known. This is why there are stages of insight. Hope this helps. It’s rather rushed. Let me know if you disagree of have another interpretation. Sarah ==== 16189 From: Sarah Date: Thu Oct 10, 2002 1:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 11, Comm Hi Larry, Just another quick note. In the earlier section (#10), we were told that some people take the ‘ekayana’ to refer to “One goes to Nibbana once”. It explained this is ‘not proper’ as the ‘Way’ here does not refer to the supramundane Way, but refers to ‘many a going on it’ and repeated satipatthana. By Supramundane Way, I take it that the lokuttara cittas (one lokuttara magga at each of the 4 stages) are being referred to. In the next section, we are given an example of this misunderstanding when Elder Culla Summa suggests the Way refers to lokiya (mundane) and lokuttara (supramundane) cittas. Later he realizes this must be wrong because of the reference to 7 years. (A lokuttara citta only occurs once). So obviously the lokuttara cittas are not being referred to.Hope this has clarified rather than confused further. Sarah 16190 From: Sarah Date: Thu Oct 10, 2002 2:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Memory and Definition of Sati Dear Rob M, Nina & Rob K, Many thanks Nina for the commentary notes to the Sekha Sutta (M53.16) which Rob M quoted from and also to Rob K for your helpful additional comments. --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > I checked my Thai edition of the Co to the sutta: the Papa~ncasuudanii. > The words: discrimination, remembering, recollecting what he has done and said long > ago.> .... Rob M, the way I think this should be read is something like: ‘He is mindful, possessed with the highest mindfulness and discrimination, having remembered (or conditioned by remembering) and having recollected what he has done and said long ago.’ In other words, previous wholesome deeds and states and reflection on these is the condition for mindfulness now. We see how the Buddha reflects on and brings to mind the paramis developed over countless lives in the past. As Nina’s note showed, the reference is to wisdom with discrimination which knows and understands kusala at the highest level. ..... > The Co goes on: < the words done long ago (carikata.mpi): the > development of > the practice, namely, the eighty religious duties (vatta), such as the > duties of the shrine terrace, which someone does himself or which others > do > long ago, through bodily action.> > N: See Vis. IV, 60: these include also duties to teachers, to visitors, > etc. > The CO: himself has spoken or others have spoken long ago.> The Co gives > examples of > extending merit, anumodana, meetings, teaching, etc. > The words remembering and recollecting are explained in English in my > PTs > edition: saritaa, remembering once, and anusaritaa, remembering again > and > again. > The Co speaks again about kamma through body and speech, explaining that > kamma through the body done long ago, means, through body-intimation ( > the > rupa which is kayavi~n~natti) and kamma through speech, done long ago, > means, through speech-intimation (the rupa which is vaci-vi~n~natti). It > explains that there are ruupa, citta and cetasika, thus, rupa dhammas > and > arupa dhammas: there should be awareness of them as: they arise thus, > they > fall away thus. Here sati as factor of enlightenment has been explained, > according to the co. It states that by this kind of sati the ariyan > disciple > knows: because > there can be awareness often.> .... Awareness has to be aware over and over again (saritaa, the name of Ivan & Ell’s daughter). Sati and other wholesome states and deeds now may be the basis for recollection in the future. This doesn’t mean that the characteristic of sati is recollecting the past. Its characteristic is that of ‘presenting or illuminating the object’ - this is the ‘faculty of mindfulness’. ‘It does not fluctuate on account of negligence - this is ‘strength of mindfulness’. ‘Right mindfulness’ is irreversible, emancipating, moral mindfulness’. (Atthasalini transl p.195). As Rob K said: > We may wonder why inisight is not strong now, why genuine sati does > not apear as often as avijja or self clinging. The answer must be that > the conditions have not been accumulated... and >So many little things that need to become habitual to support the > development of insight. If these are not our habits now this may be > because they were not our habits in past times. Perhaps we are stingy, > or hold grudges - and yet still hope for insight to arise. And sure, it > can...but also possibly there is needed preliminary work on a moment to > moment, daily basis to support satipatthana. ..... Many thanks indeed, Rob M for all the fine points you raise and to Nina and Rob K for helping to clarify this point for me. Sarah p.s. perhaps any of the pali scholars will let us know if the re-phrasing at the beginning is not possible. ===== 16191 From: Sarah Date: Thu Oct 10, 2002 2:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dukkha - suffering Dear Christine, Just a couple of comments on one question only to add to Howard’s and Ken’s helpful ones. I hope others will add more. >But what > does it matter what someone said two thousand years ago, or eight > hundred years ago? They don't live here and now with our set of > conditions, our capabilities for destruction, our selfish, petty > indifference to others. .... From Perfections (6-3) we read “Dhamma is dhamma: it cannot be changed, it is the turth.”In other words, whether we ‘get it’ or not, whether anyone ‘gets it’ or not, it is the truth of the nature of life. And from the Satipatthana commentary I just read now: “Whose mind perceiving life’s last dying out vibrates with love, he knows the only way That led in ancient times, is leading now, And in the future will lead past the flood.” ***** The problems we experience and see all around us - the suffering, the greed, the hatred, the destruction and so on, are no different from those that have always been experienced and always will. There is only one Way. This Way, the development of satipatthana, is the highest ‘good’ and a condition for all other kinds of ‘good’ to be understood and performed as well. At times of wisdom or other wholesome states, there is no ‘crushing burden’, but lightness and ease and lack of concern for one’s own lot. You may also find it helpful to review the 3 kinds of dukkha (see Useful Posts). Of course the unhappiness, the pain, old age, suffering and death are part of life. There is also the meaning of dukkha referring to change and the ‘ultimate’ meaning, as in the 1st Noble Truth, referring to the impermanent and thereby unsatisfactory nature of all conditioned realities. As it has repeatsed several times already in the Satipathana sutta commentary extracts, the truth is deep, very deep. I realise these brief comments are probably not very helpful for you at this time, but I’m glad you can honestly ask the questions of real concern to yourself and many others here. ‘Appreciate’ as Num would say. metta, Sarah ======= 16192 From: abhidhammika Date: Thu Oct 10, 2002 7:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali 'abhi' = Greek 'epi'?: To Jim Dear Jim You wrote. "according to a research article by K.R. Norman in the Journal of the Pali Text Society, Vol. XII and with a sutta to back it up it's possible that the derivation is in fact api (a prefix) + laapana with a meaning of reminding, remembering by reciting, calling to mind and the new Cone dictionary is following Norman on this instead of the commentaries." I wonder which sutta K.R. Norman was using to back up his argument. With regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Jim Anderson" wrote: Dear Howard, It's possible that the Greek epi and the Pali/Sanskrit abhi are related but according to some of my reference materials, Gk epi is related to Pali/Sanskrit api which is rarely seen used as a prefix compared to the very common abhi which is related to Gk amphi and L. ambi (which I find a little dubious). Pali has altogether 20 prefixes (upasagga-s) and you will find some of them readily matches up with Gk ones such as: pa and pro; pari and peri; sa.m and sym; upa and hypo (also hyper and L. sub). The abhi of abhidhamma is understood in two senses according to the Atthasalini: 1. superior, higher (atireka) and 2. distinguished (visi.t.tha). Recently, I was studying the Pali word apilaapana which is one of the terms used to define the characteristic of sati. It's usually translated as non-floating which is based on taking it to be derived from a + pilaapana (plaavana in Skt.) which agrees with the commentaries ... Best wishes, Jim 16193 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 10, 2002 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] the only way Dear Larry, see below op 09-10-2002 02:46 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w... > I've been comparing the footnotes from other translations of > Satipatthana Sutta. Here's an interesting one from B. Bodhi: > > "Though there is neither canonical nor commentarial basis for this view, > it might be maintained that satipatthana is called ekayana magga, the > direct path, to distinguish it from the approach to meditative > attainment that proceeds through the jhanas or brahmaviharas. While the > latter can lead to Nibbana, they do not do so necessarily but can lead > to sidetracks, whereas satipatthana leads invariably to the final goal." > > L: Why is this? I would say because panna is a necessary part of > satipatthana. N: Panna is developed through satipatthana. L: Off hand, I would > say panna is the experience of one of the three characteristics (anicca, > dukkha, anatta) as a characteristic of the object. Is this at least in > the ball park? What else do we need to know about panna and why > satipatthana invariably leads to the final goal? N: only developed panna penetrates the three characteristics. The development of panna has to begin by knowing nama and rupa. Sati is aware and panna knows the characteristics of all realities included in the four satipatthanas, the gocara or domain of panna. There is no other way, also all akusala, included in the applications of mindfulness of citta and of dhamma, have to be known as they are. For those who can attain jhana the jhanacitta is also included. The jhanalabhi, who attains jhana, cannot forego the development of insight and has to go through all stages of insight. Nina. P.S. For me personally the pace is still somewhat fast, we need time to consider: only one way, we also have to listen to Jim, his translations, and to ruminate what he says. If we keep on reading and reading, where is the time to ponder things over?What do you think? 16194 From: Uan Chih Liu Date: Thu Oct 10, 2002 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dukkha - suffering Hi Christine, I so empathize with you. A couple of years back, I, too, was overwhelmed by the suffering I see in this world. I feel nothing but pessimism and total despair that the world is coming to an end. Many times, I regretted bringing my children to this world, and spent my time just lying in bed, feeling hopeless. God provided me consolation that I shall be salvaged from this pain, and it was faith that keeps me living. Then I was introduced to Buddhism. It brought to me a brand new perspective of things. Buddhism striked me as a harder and more disciplinary way to get to truth. It forced me to really analyze what's going on in this world and eventually help me the comprehend the true cause of human suffering. And the understanding of anatta is the key to that understanding of the cause so that when I came to that realization, I actually found instead of despair, a calmness that arises from that understanding. And it led me to gratitude that I am living, that I am a human, and that I have the potential to be salvaged from the whirling sea of suffering while living. And it gave me hope that everyone has the potential to be salvaged (just as God has promised). Even though I may not be enlightened by the end of my life, but accumulation does occur. And I have thus made a vow to myself that I shall seek the truth, and I shall help the others to see the truth. It's not an easy way, and it takes much discipline, but the hope and the determination kept me going. There are many times in life, sometimes you just want a shoulder to cry on, and someone to turn to for solace, and God served that role. But ultimately we have to get up and continue the journey on our own to truely understand what life is telling us. And finally I think it's crucial to read the meanings behind the words. Words are invented by human beings to convey the message. However, words are not sufficient. All the writings are attempts by those with good heart trying the best they can using human tool "words" to help others see the truth they have come to realize. They are just trying to set out a footprints for others to follow so we don't get lost in the woods. But don't just look at the footprints. See what's surrounding you to get a better orientation of yourself and to experience the scenary. It's only through experience that we'll come to truth. Also, showing people truth takes teamwork by many people, some people serves as the teacher, some as translators, some as scholoars. You will find the path you will be taking by looking at yourself, understanding your inclination. You've asked me how I embrace Christianity and Buddhism. This has been my path. Hope it helps! metta, WL 16195 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 10, 2002 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Munindra-ji teachings Dear Anthony and Sarah, I met M in Bodhgaya. People there were walking very slowly and I asked him why, expressing my doubts. He said that he just let people do that because they were inclined to. Indeed, he would not force anybody to do this or not to do that. Later on I met him in Holland, and we discussed my Cetasikas. Then he very much insisted that I would write about rupas as well. Indeed, this inspired me to do so. Nina. op 08-10-2002 07:54 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > I think what I value most was his example of kindness, patience and > modesty and his encouragement to study and consider, rather than just > follow. > 16196 From: Date: Thu Oct 10, 2002 9:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Why did the Buddha meditate? Hi Howard and all My answer regarding "a peaceful abiding and as a good example" is not my opinion but it is what the Buddha himself said in the suttas. Sorrow I don't have a reference handy, but its somewhere in the 4 Great Nikayas perhaps in several places. 16197 From: Date: Thu Oct 10, 2002 10:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Why did the Buddha meditate? Hi, TG - In a message dated 10/10/02 5:14:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > > Hi Howard and all > > My answer regarding "a peaceful abiding and as a good example" is not my > opinion but it is what the Buddha himself said in the suttas. Sorrow I > don't > have a reference handy, but its somewhere in the 4 Great Nikayas perhaps in > > several places. > > =========================== Yes, you're correct, and I did realize that you weren't voicing just a personal opinion with that. I believe it is mentioned in several suttas. The Buddha taught the jhanas as a peaceful abiding here and now. But he taught that to his followers, who needed such. He, however, didn't need such a temporary peaceful abiding. He had reached the far shore. So I don't think that would account for his continuing to meditate as a Buddha. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16198 From: Date: Thu Oct 10, 2002 4:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 11, Comm Sarah: "Initially, as we've discussed before, panna has to know different namas and rupas before the tri-lakkhana can be known. This is why there are stages of insight." Hi Sarah, This is what I am particularly interested in. All insight knowledges are considered the domain of panna, rather than sanna or citta, correct? I'm going to try to pull together as much as I can on panna this weekend but as I recall Vism doesn't give much info. If you have any sources not covered by Vism or CMA or "Cetasikas" they would be greatly appreciated. Larry 16199 From: Date: Thu Oct 10, 2002 4:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] the only way Nina: "Sati is aware and panna knows the characteristics of all realities included in the four satipatthanas, the gocara or domain of panna." Hi Nina, What is involved in knowing the characteristics of realities? thanks, Larry 16200 From: Date: Thu Oct 10, 2002 4:04pm Subject: Way 12, Comm. "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html Commentary continued Sattanam visuddhiya = "For the purification of beings." For the cleansing of beings soiled by the stains of lust, hatred and delusion, and by the defilements of covetise, called lawless greed and so forth. All reach the highest purity after abandoning mental taints. By way of physical taints, however, there is no cleansing of impurities taught in the Dhamma. By the Great Seer it was not said That through bodily taints men become impure, Or by the washing of the body they become pure. By the Great Seer it was declared That through mental taints men become impure, And through the cleansing of the mind they become pure. Accordingly it is said: "Mental taints soil beings; mental cleansing sanctifies them."[10] Sokaparidevanam samatikkamaya = "For the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation." If this Way is developed it will lead to the casting out of sorrow similar to that experienced by the Minister Santati, and the casting out of lamentation similar to that of Patacara. With analytical knowledge did Santati reach arahantship after hearing this stanza: Purge out the things belonging to the past; Let there be naught in the world to rise in future times. If what's twixt past and future you don't grasp, You will be one who wanders forth serene.[11] Patacara reached the fruition of the first stage of arahantship after hearing the following: For one who is by death oppressed there is No safety seen in children, father, friends Or others close to one. A shelter true Amongst one's kinsfolk one does never find.[12] Since there is nothing called spiritual development [bhavana] without laying hold on something whatsoever in material form, feeling, consciousness and mental objects [kaya vedana citta dhammesu kiñci dhammam anamasitva] they (Santati and Patacara) too overcame sorrow and lamentation just by this Way of Mindfulness. [Tika] For the hearers [savaka], namely, the disciples of the Buddha, there is no attainment of the Noble Path [Ariya Magga] possible, except by practicing the subject of meditation [kammatthana] of the Four Truths [Catu Sacca]. Spiritual development usually called meditation, is the development of wisdom [pañña bhavana]. Just the contemplation of material form (corporeality), of feeling, consciousness or mental objects, constitutes the cultivation of the Arousing of Mindfulness. Dukkha domanassanam atthangamaya = "For the destruction of suffering and grief." For the cessation of bodily suffering and mental grief. This way maintained by contemplation is conducive to the destruction of suffering similar to that of the Elder Tissa, and of grief similar to that of Sakka. Tissa, the head of a family at Savatthi, renouncing forty crores of gold, became a homeless one, and dwelt in a forest far from other human beings. His sister-in-law sent a robber band of five hundred to scour the forest in order to find him, and ordered them to kill him when he was found. [Tika] She sent him, it is said, in five batches of a hundred each in succession. After entering the forest and searching for the elder they in due course came to the place in which he lived and sat round him. When the robbers surrounded him, the elder spoke thus: "Lay disciples, why have you come?" They replied: "To kill you." Then the elder said: "On a security, give me my life for just this one night." Said the robbers: "O recluse, who will stand surety for you in a place like this?" The elder, thereupon, took a big stone, broke the bones of his legs and said: "Lay disciples, is the security of value?" They, leaving the elder, went to the end of the ambulatory and lighting a fire lay on the ground. The elder contemplating on the purity of his conduct, after suppressing his pain, attained arahantship, at dawn, having fulfilled the recluse's regimen in the three watches of the night. Giving expression to his feelings he said: "A surety let me raise breaking both my legs: To die with lustful mind I loathe and shrink. Having thought thus I saw things as they are, And with the dawn I reached the arahant's domain." There is another story. Thirty bhikkhus taking the subject of meditation from the Blessed One went into residence, during the rains, in a forest-dwelling, agreeing amongst themselves to practice the duty of the recluse, during all the three watches of the night, and to avoid one another's presence. One by one those monks who began to doze early in the morning after doing the recluse's duty during the three watches of the night were carried away by a tiger. Not one of those carried away did even utter the words: "I am taken by a tiger." When thus fifteen bhikkhus had been devoured, on uposatha day (the day of the Meeting of the Order for recitation of the Rules), after it was asked (by the elder) "Friends, where are the others?" and it became known that they had been devoured by a tiger. It was agreed that anyone seized by the tiger, thereafter, should utter the words: "I am taken." Then a certain young bhikkhu was seized by the tiger in the same circumstances in which the others were seized earlier. That young bhikkhu said: "Tiger, Reverend Sir." The other bhikkhus carrying sticks and torches went in pursuit of the tiger. The tiger, having taken the young bhikkhu up to a rocky place, a broken edge over a hollow spot inaccessible to the bhikkhus, began to devour its prey from the feet upwards. The pursuing bhikkhus said: "Good man, there is nothing that can be done by us. The extraordinary spiritual attainment of bhikkhus is to be seen in such a place (as that in which you are)." That bhikkhu, even prostrate in the tiger's mouth, suppressed his pain and developing the wisdom of insight attained the four paths and fruits of sanctitude together with analytical knowledge. Then he uttered this ecstatic utterance:- Virtuous was I keeping to my vows And wise with growing insight was my mind That had to concentration well attained. Yet, because I slacked for just a while, A tiger took my frame of flesh and blood. Unto a hill and then my mind did quake. Devour me as you please, o tiger, eat This body of mine which is bereft of thought; Within the thought of quiet strongly held A blessing will my death become to me. ------------------- Footnotes: 10. Samyutta Nikaya iii, page 151, P.T.S. Edition. The verse which precedes this passage here resembles a saying attributed to the Poranas in Adikaram's Early History of Buddhism in Ceylon, Appendix II.A, page xxii, quotation 77. 11. Sutta Nipata verse 949. 12. Dhammapada verse 288. 16201 From: Date: Thu Oct 10, 2002 4:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] the only way Nina: "For me personally the pace is still somewhat fast, we need time to consider: only one way, we also have to listen to Jim, his translations, and to ruminate what he says. If we keep on reading and reading, where is the time to ponder things over?What do you think?" Hi Nina, I agree, but I was worrying that some may be impatient with spending so much time on a few words. Instead of posting for four days in the week I could cut it down to three days. Or I could make shorter posts but it is easy to lose context that way. What's the view out there? Suggestions always welcome. Larry 16202 From: Date: Thu Oct 10, 2002 6:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 12, Comm. "That bhikkhu, even prostrate in the tiger's mouth, suppressed his pain and developing the wisdom of insight attained the four paths and fruits of sanctitude together with analytical knowledge. Then he uttered this ecstatic utterance:-" Hi all, What is "analytical knowledge" here? thanks, Larry 16203 From: robmoult Date: Thu Oct 10, 2002 6:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] the only way Hi Larry, I would vote for fewer words and less frequently. The way I see it, people are either really into this subject or they really don't care. I want to go through this slowly and savour each mouthful. Work or class preparation ties me up for a few days and I get behind. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > Nina: "For me personally the pace is still somewhat fast, we need time > to consider: only one way, we also have to listen to Jim, his > translations, and to ruminate what he says. If we keep on reading and > reading, where is the time to ponder things over?What do you think?" > > Hi Nina, > > I agree, but I was worrying that some may be impatient with spending so > much time on a few words. Instead of posting for four days in the week I > could cut it down to three days. Or I could make shorter posts but it is > easy to lose context that way. What's the view out there? Suggestions > always welcome. > > Larry 16204 From: Date: Thu Oct 10, 2002 4:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 11, Comm Hi Sarah, So would it be correct to say that a magga citta is something other than satipatthana? Larry -------------- Sarah: "Hi Larry, Just another quick note. In the earlier section (#10), we were told that some people take the 'ekayana' to refer to "One goes to Nibbana once". It explained this is 'not proper' as the 'Way' here does not refer to the supramundane Way, but refers to 'many a going on it' and repeated satipatthana. By Supramundane Way, I take it that the lokuttara cittas (one lokuttara magga at each of the 4 stages) are being referred to. In the next section, we are given an example of this misunderstanding when Elder Culla Summa suggests the Way refers to lokiya (mundane) and lokuttara (supramundane) cittas. Later he realizes this must be wrong because of the reference to 7 years. (A lokuttara citta only occurs once). So obviously the lokuttara cittas are not being referred to.Hope this has clarified rather than confused further. Sarah" 16205 From: robmoult Date: Thu Oct 10, 2002 7:19pm Subject: Re: Dukkha - suffering Hi Christine, You might want to read, "Guardians of the World" by Bhikkhu Bodhi http://www.buddhistinformation.com/guardians_of_the_world.htm I summarized it as part of my class notes on Hiri and Ottappa, but you may want to read the entire essay. Recently, I was listening to a CD by Ajan Bram (based in Perth), and he talked about Ajan Chah's advice to those who do counseling. He said that you must be like a garbage pail and allow everybody to dump their suffering into you (lightening their load). But he said that it was critical that you be like a garbage pail with a hole in the bottom, so that none of the suffering says inside of you. You have to let it go. Ajan Bram mentioned that one the devotees at his temple did not follow this advice and ended up committing suicide; she had no real problems of her own, but could not let go of other people's suffering. Christine, I a very concerned about you. I understand that your job is to listen to horrible things. I can understand that what you hear conditions a lot of dosa (aversion). The nature of aversion is like a red-hot iron rod; if you pick it up, you burn yourself. Burning yourself is not good for you, nor is it good for the people you are tyring to help. Think of those horrible things as hot iron rods. Whomever handles them will get burned. I know that Freud believed that by getting things out in the open, it would help to cure the patient. So "dumping their hot iron rods inside your garbage pail" may be good for your patients. You must have a hole in the bottom of your garbage pail, otherwise you may end up needing more counseling than your patients. With Metta, Rob M :-) 16206 From: robmoult Date: Thu Oct 10, 2002 7:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 11, Comm Hi Larry, Magga cittas are very different from satipatthana. Throughout one's countless lifetimes, one will only ever experience four magga cittas. The first magga citta occurs at that instant when you become an sotapanna. The function of this citta is to uproot all conditions that may cause one to fall into the four woeful states. It also uproots any conditions associated with envy, selfishess, sceptical doubt (and a few others). This first magga citta is followed by some fruit (phala) cittas. Similarly, one will experience a magga citta when one becomes a Sakadagami, again when one becomes an Anagami and finally when one becomes an Arahant. Together the magga cittas and the phala cittas are classified as supramundane. Sometimes the four magga cittas and the four phala cittas are further classified according to the level of jhana achieved (1st to 5th). In this way, the number of supramundane cittas increases from 8 to 40. This is why the number of cittas can be either 89 or 121. Sarah, sorry for butting in. Please feel free to add more. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > So would it be correct to say that a magga citta is something other than > satipatthana? > > Larry > -------------- > > Sarah: "Hi Larry, > Just another quick note. In the earlier section (#10), we were told that > some people take the 'ekayana' to refer to "One goes to Nibbana once". > It explained this is 'not proper' as the 'Way' here does not refer to > the supramundane Way, but refers to 'many a going on it' and repeated > satipatthana. By Supramundane Way, I take it that the lokuttara cittas > (one lokuttara magga at each of the 4 stages) are being referred to. > In the next section, we are given an example of this misunderstanding > when Elder Culla Summa suggests the Way refers to lokiya (mundane) and > lokuttara (supramundane) cittas. Later he realizes this must be wrong > because of the reference to 7 years. (A lokuttara citta only occurs > once). So obviously the lokuttara cittas are not being referred to.Hope > this has clarified rather than confused further. > Sarah" 16207 From: Date: Thu Oct 10, 2002 8:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 11, Comm Hi Rob, Thanks for your reply on supramundane cittas. What exactly is different in them from satipatthana? No sati? no panna? no realities? Also thanks for the suggestions on posting. One thing that occured to me is that whenever someone sees a passage they want to dwell on, they could raise a red flag and we could stay put for a week. Larry 16208 From: rikpa21 Date: Thu Oct 10, 2002 9:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Musings on Children & the Dhamma --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Hi Erik, > > Like everyone else here, I was sorry to hear about your difficulties, but > glad to read comments like this: Sarah, Jon, Christine, and al who replied to this thread, thanks for the great, supportive comments. I have a few comments as well, which, as soon as I'm back in Thailand (tomorrow--perhaps) I can try to find some time to elaborate on a bit. As always, there are points raised here that I agree with, and some that I don't. Since agreement needs no further comment, I'll pick out a few points I question. Aw heck, just a couple of brief comments now. Regret for past misdeeds of either comission or omission are part & parcel of hiri & ottapa, and regret is an important factor when it serves the purpose of spurring one to further development, as has my regret for not having practiced as diligently as I could have (due to sheer laziness). If it hinders progress as kukucca, that is an entirely different story. That is not the case here. It is recognizing that I have made the mistake of not practicing with enough zeal to overcome the mental obstacles that have arisen in conjunction with this micro- odyssey (which began as a two-day visa run and ended up as a three- week endeavour of jumping through flaming bureaucratic hoops, inolving planes, vans, automobiles, boats, tuk-tuks, and motos, and thousands of dollars). Regarding clinging to "self" in regretting not praticing more diligently. There is not a being other than an arahat that is free from this affliction, and I do not believe it helpful at all to ignore this fact. The reality is that unless we are arahats, we have have no choice but to use the thorn of the root of grasping after I, me, mine, to crack the barrier of ignorance that falesly imputes that root of dukkha. I am interested in practical Dhamma--what works here & now. If you read the suttas, the Budha speaks conventionally in most of his sermons. Why did the Buddha spend so much time utilizing terms relating to the merely imputed notions of self if they are not important? For example, why did the Buddha talk about "generating desire, arousing persistence, upholding & exterting one's intent" for the abandonment of the unskillful and the taking up of ths skillful (sammapadana)? Was the Buddha was encouraging us to cling to self speaking in such terms? I mean, generating desire, for devas' sake! It is easy to cling to views of anatta and forget that anatta and paticcca samuppada are mutually supportive; one cannot exist without the other. In other words, the path is a delicate balancing act of finding the "sweet spot" of the Middle Way between the extremes of the annihilation view, and the extremes of the eternalist view, between excessive zeal and laziness, between ultimate reality and conventional reality, to name just a few of the Scyllas and Charybdises of extremes to be abandoned. The view that overemphasizes "all things being empty", just from observation, leads many into what I call "Zennitis"--that we can do any old thing because hey, it's all empty anyway; nothing's inherently real; I can do whatever I want! I believe this is actually a more harmful teaching than teachings dealing with conventions like conventional metta, karuna, mudita, upekkha, just for example. As is said, anatta teachings on anatta are like a venomous snake: when grasped the wrong way, they bite. Often fatally. Another quick comment (apropos of what I've now forgotten, but it's worth repeating I think). Pedaogical structure & emphasis on specific practices or areas of teaching are just as important in terms of Dhamma transmission as the content itself. The right content presented in the inapporpriate order or fashion goes against the Dhamma, even if it's a direct quote from the Tripitika. In other words, presentation of the Dhamma needs both skillful means (method) & wisdom as mutually supportive conditions for rightly understanding the Middle Way. If one peice is lacking, or presented in the inappropriate order (for the person(s) hearing the teachings), then the entire message is useless, and therefore is adhamma because it does not lead to release. On a more conventional note, we are awaiting our adopted son's passport, then a visa, then Eath and he will return from Cambodia next week, unless of course the obstacle monster comes up and upends our plans, as has happened at every turn. Opasa charan charan (or opasaa maak maak for the Thai contingent)! No matter what, thanks for the kind words. Now, back to work (on visa issues and logistics--gotta catch a flight to Phnom Penh in a couple of hours). May all here have happiness and cause of hapiness and be free from suffering and cause of suffering. Cheers, Erik 16209 From: Jim Anderson Date: Thu Oct 10, 2002 9:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 10, Comm. To Sarah (and Suan) Dear Sarah (and Suan for the sutta ref.), I left my place yesterday for a period of about 10 days or so and do not have access to my library. I will just have to make do with what I have at hand until I return. > > Recently, I was studying the Pali word apilaapana which is one of the > > terms used to define the characteristic of sati. It's usually > > translated as non-floating which is based on taking it to be derived > > from a + pilaapana (plaavana in Skt.) which agrees with the > > commentaries but according to a research article by K.R. Norman in the > > Journal of the Pali Text Society, Vol. XII and with a sutta to back it > > up it's possible that the derivation is in fact api (a prefix) + > > laapana with a meaning of reminding, remembering by reciting, calling > > to mind and the new Cone dictionary is following Norman on this > > instead of the commentaries. > .... > I was a little interested and a little concerned when I read this - > concerned as I wondered if the dictionaries are now not being guided by > the commentaries when in doubt. Which is the sutta Norman refers to and is > it possible that there are the two meanings (dep. on context) or even a > play on the word? Currently I don't have the article at hand so I'm just going mostly from memory. The sutta is the Sotaanugatasutta (AN IV.191) but Norman focusses on just one short sentence as follows but you have to read it in the sutta for the context: Tassa tattha sukhino dhammapadaani pi lapanti. (he quotes from the PTS. ed. and this is how I remember it but the PTS co. reads the last 3 words as: dhammapadaapilapanti) The Burmese CSCD reading is: Tassa tattha sukhino dhammapadaa plavanti. Thai, Sinhalese, and Cambodian edns. read pilapanti for plavanti and Norman takes it to be 'apilapanti' (they recite). I don't know how 'plavanti' would translate here as the verb isn't in the PED and one has to look it up in a Sanskrit dictionary for its varied meanings none of which seem to fit the context here. Cone has a second entry for apilaapana (a+pilaapana -- non-floating away) but you are directed to look it up under pilaapana in a volume not yet published. It is difficult to discuss this matter further without you or Suan having read Norman's article and looking up apilaapana in Cone's dictionary which refers to this article under apilapati which is how I found out about it and happened to have it. I just wanted to bring it to your attention after going over Norman's interesting article just recently for the first time so it's new to me too. It also mentions the commentarial interpretation of apilaapana. Perhaps I can summarize the article (a little over 2 pages long) when I have access to it again. The CPD follows the commentaries on apilaapana. > Jim, I just looked at SN43, Asankhatasamyutta which you referred to as > being 'somewhat confusing' in this light.I don't read there being many > paths, but various aspects of the same path, eg 4 Foundations of > Mindfulness, 4 Rt Efforts, Enlightenment Factors, 8fold path, Faculties, > Powers and so on. They are not alternatives as I understand but I agree > that taken on its own - especially the first segment - it is rather > misleading. This is why I don't think suttas can be taken 'on their own'. I once calculated that there are 1748 suttas (56x33) in this sa.myutta which only takes up a few pages. I'm reading here that there are 56 paths leading to nibbaaana (or one of its 32 synonyms). eg. samatha is a path, vipassanaa is another, the two together yet another, and so on. Perhaps the explanation (which Soma doesn't translate) in the Satipatthanasutta commentary on how the 4 satipatthanas taken together can be one path might help sort this one out. > I really appreciate your comments on Soma's translation and was intrigued > by the comment about the part misssed out with regard to the parrot.Could > the Kuru pets really develop satipatthana? Don't we read elsewhere that > it's impossible in the animal realms? I was expecting Christine to take > great joy in this comment;-) I'm really interested to hear more sometime. > Did he hear about satipatthana from the Mahatheri? It must be highly > exceptional. I hope one day there is a complete translation. I think this wonderful story is worth putting on the must translate shelf. The parrot's name was Buddharakkhita and after practising satipatthana for awhile he was seized by a predatory bird but saved by some novice nuns. The mahatheri upon asking him what he was thinking during this violent incident (he kept to the meditation subject) predicted that in the future this would be a condition for the destruction of becoming (bhavakkhaya) for him. There is also a story somewhere about bats (500 of them, I think) overhearing dhamma in a cave which turned out to be a condition in a future life for their spiritual attainments. So it seems that animals can benefit from the teachings too. Best wishes, Jim 16210 From: robmoult Date: Thu Oct 10, 2002 10:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 11, Comm Hi Larry, As I see it, satipatthana is a process. It is an activity. It is a discipline. On the other hand, a supramundane citta is a once in a lifetime (in fact, once in all lifetimes) event. Satipatthana might help you achieve a supramundane citta but it is certainly not a requirement. There were many cases in the Suttas of people attaining supramundane states (i.e. becoming an Arahant) without practising satipatthana. I hope that this helps. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Rob, > > Thanks for your reply on supramundane cittas. What exactly is different > in them from satipatthana? No sati? no panna? no realities? > > Also thanks for the suggestions on posting. One thing that occured to me > is that whenever someone sees a passage they want to dwell on, they > could raise a red flag and we could stay put for a week. > > Larry 16211 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Fri Oct 11, 2002 1:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dukkha - suffering --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Uan Chih Liu" wrote: > Hi Christine, > And the understanding of anatta is the key to that > understanding of the cause so that when I came to that realization, I > actually found instead of despair, a calmness that arises from that > understanding. And it led me to gratitude that I am living, that I am a > human, and that I have the potential to be salvaged from the whirling sea > of suffering while living. And it gave me hope that everyone has the > potential to be salvaged (just as God has promised). Even though I may > not be enlightened by the end of my life, but accumulation does occur. >\+++++++++++++++ A very nice post WL. As you say accumulation of understanding does occur, and no need to measure how much or when it will be complete. And the understanding of anatta comes with calmness that is not dependent on external conditions. Robert 16212 From: ajahn_paul Date: Fri Oct 11, 2002 6:13am Subject: Re: Dukkha - suffering Hi all, Just want to clarify that "Dukkha" is not just meaning of suffering, stress, or anything in a negative way. Dukkha means,,, things r keep changing...bcoz of different elements (earth, water, fire, wind) changes. It implies in any of materials, and including our body and mind. For example, when we trying to order our food, u may aware how many ideas have come and gone in just one second, this is also called "Dukkha". So, we r all in "Dukkha" even when we r feeling happy! 16213 From: ajahn_paul Date: Fri Oct 11, 2002 7:27am Subject: Re: Dukkha - suffering Hi, In Buddhism, there r 2 sets of "Dukkha", one is called "8 Dukkha", the other one is called "3 Dukkha". 8 Dukkha is : "Birth is dukkha, aging is dukkha, death is dukkha; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair are dukkha; association with the unbeloved is dukkha; separation from the loved is dukkha; not getting what is wanted is dukkha. Illness is dukkha. 3 Dukkha is : the stressfulness of pain, the stressfulness of fabrication, the stressfulness of change. These are the three forms of stressfulness." The other way of 3 Dukkha is : 1)the suffer from our body and mind, such as hungry, feeling cold etc..2) the suffer from changing, such as situation cannot be kept as u want. 3) the suffer from all living things and material will deteriorate, like flowers will die, even a building will collapse. Wish u can understand what im trying to say... if some of u know what i mean, please help me to explain! ^_~ Paul 16214 From: Date: Fri Oct 11, 2002 4:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Musings on Children & the Dhamma Hi, Erik - In a message dated 10/11/02 1:18:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rikpa21@y... writes: > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > > Hi Erik, > > > > Like everyone else here, I was sorry to hear about your > difficulties, but > > glad to read comments like this: > > Sarah, Jon, Christine, and al who replied to this thread, thanks for > the great, supportive comments. I have a few comments as well, > which, as soon as I'm back in Thailand (tomorrow--perhaps) I can try > to find some time to elaborate on a bit. As always, there are points > raised here that I agree with, and some that I don't. Since > agreement needs no further comment, I'll pick out a few points I > question. > > Aw heck, just a couple of brief comments now. Regret for past > misdeeds of either comission or omission are part & parcel of hiri & > ottapa, and regret is an important factor when it serves the purpose > of spurring one to further development, as has my regret for not > having practiced as diligently as I could have (due to sheer > laziness). If it hinders progress as kukucca, that is an entirely > different story. That is not the case here. It is recognizing that I > have made the mistake of not practicing with enough zeal to overcome > the mental obstacles that have arisen in conjunction with this micro- > odyssey (which began as a two-day visa run and ended up as a three- > week endeavour of jumping through flaming bureaucratic hoops, > inolving planes, vans, automobiles, boats, tuk-tuks, and motos, and > thousands of dollars). > -------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm happy that your ordeal is mostly over! ------------------------------------------- > > Regarding clinging to "self" in regretting not praticing more > diligently. There is not a being other than an arahat that is free > from this affliction, and I do not believe it helpful at all to > ignore this fact. The reality is that unless we are arahats, we have > have no choice but to use the thorn of the root of grasping after I, > me, mine, to crack the barrier of ignorance that falesly imputes > that root of dukkha. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Agreed. I think this is important. We start where we are, not where we might hope to be. ------------------------------------------------- > > I am interested in practical Dhamma--what works here & now. If you > read the suttas, the Budha speaks conventionally in most of his > sermons. Why did the Buddha spend so much time utilizing terms > relating to the merely imputed notions of self if they are not > important? For example, why did the Buddha talk about "generating > desire, arousing persistence, upholding & exterting one's intent" > for the abandonment of the unskillful and the taking up of ths > skillful (sammapadana)? Was the Buddha was encouraging us to cling > to self speaking in such terms? I mean, generating desire, for > devas' sake! > > ------------------------------------------ Howard: Well said. ------------------------------------------ > > It is easy to cling to views of anatta and forget that anatta and > paticcca samuppada are mutually supportive; one cannot exist without > the other. In other words, the path is a delicate balancing act of > finding the "sweet spot" of the Middle Way between the extremes of > the annihilation view, and the extremes of the eternalist view, > between excessive zeal and laziness, between ultimate reality and > conventional reality, to name just a few of the Scyllas and > Charybdises of extremes to be abandoned. The view that > overemphasizes "all things being empty", just from observation, > leads many into what I call "Zennitis"--that we can do any old thing > because hey, it's all empty anyway; nothing's inherently real; I can > do whatever I want! I believe this is actually a more harmful > teaching than teachings dealing with conventions like conventional > metta, karuna, mudita, upekkha, just for example. As is said, anatta > teachings on anatta are like a venomous snake: when grasped the > wrong way, they bite. Often fatally. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Such a "nothing matters because its all empty anyway" view would, indeed, be very harmful (and incorrect). Fortunately, however, I've come across no Buddhists (Zen, Theravadin, or otherwise) who seriously hold this view, and I doubt that it is widely held. ------------------------------------------------ > > Another quick comment (apropos of what I've now forgotten, but it's > worth repeating I think). Pedaogical structure & emphasis on > specific practices or areas of teaching are just as important in > terms of Dhamma transmission as the content itself. The right > content presented in the inapporpriate order or fashion goes against > the Dhamma, even if it's a direct quote from the Tripitika. In other > words, presentation of the Dhamma needs both skillful means (method) > & wisdom as mutually supportive conditions for rightly understanding > the Middle Way. If one peice is lacking, or presented in the > inappropriate order (for the person(s) hearing the teachings), then > the entire message is useless, and therefore is adhamma because it > does not lead to release. > > On a more conventional note, we are awaiting our adopted son's > passport, then a visa, then Eath and he will return from Cambodia > next week, unless of course the obstacle monster comes up and upends > our plans, as has happened at every turn. Opasa charan charan (or > opasaa maak maak for the Thai contingent)! ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I don't understand either language used here, but would I be correct in guessing that it means "Que sera, sera!"? In any case, yes, what will be will be, but I do hope for only happy outcomes in the future. ------------------------------------------------------- > > No matter what, thanks for the kind words. Now, back to work (on > visa issues and logistics--gotta catch a flight to Phnom Penh in a > couple of hours). > > May all here have happiness and cause of hapiness and be free from > suffering and cause of suffering. > > Cheers, > Erik > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16215 From: abhidhammika Date: Fri Oct 11, 2002 8:19am Subject: Re: Way 10, Comm. To Sarah (and Suan): To Jim Dear Jim, (Sarah, and friends) Thanks for your kind information on Sutta reference. In U Hoat Sein's Pali-Myanmar Dictionary, I found "palavati" for plavati". Sanskrit root is "plu". In Sir Monier Monier-Williams' Sanskrit-English dictionary gives the meanings of 'plavate' (plu) in the first column, at the bottom of the page 715. The meanings for Pali 'plavati' and Sanskrit 'plavate' are the same. Palavati, plavati, (plavate): to float, to swim. Looking forward to the summary of RK Norman article (when you have time). With kind regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Jim Anderson" wrote: Dear Sarah (and Suan for the sutta ref.), I left my place yesterday for a period of about 10 days or so and do not have access to my library. I will just have to make do with what I have at hand until I return. > > Recently, I was studying the Pali word apilaapana which is one of the > > terms used to define the characteristic of sati. It's usually > > translated as non-floating which is based on taking it to be derived > > from a + pilaapana (plaavana in Skt.) which agrees with the > > commentaries but according to a research article by K.R. Norman in the > > Journal of the Pali Text Society, Vol. XII and with a sutta to back it > > up it's possible that the derivation is in fact api (a prefix) + > > laapana with a meaning of reminding, remembering by reciting, calling > > to mind and the new Cone dictionary is following Norman on this > > instead of the commentaries. > .... > I was a little interested and a little concerned when I read this - > concerned as I wondered if the dictionaries are now not being guided by > the commentaries when in doubt. Which is the sutta Norman refers to and is > it possible that there are the two meanings (dep. on context) or even a > play on the word? Currently I don't have the article at hand so I'm just going mostly from memory. The sutta is the Sotaanugatasutta (AN IV.191) but Norman focusses on just one short sentence as follows but you have to read it in the sutta for the context: Tassa tattha sukhino dhammapadaani pi lapanti. (he quotes from the PTS. ed. and this is how I remember it but the PTS co. reads the last 3 words as: dhammapadaapilapanti) The Burmese CSCD reading is: Tassa tattha sukhino dhammapadaa plavanti. Thai, Sinhalese, and Cambodian edns. read pilapanti for plavanti and Norman takes it to be 'apilapanti' (they recite). I don't know how 'plavanti' would translate here as the verb isn't in the PED and one has to look it up in a Sanskrit dictionary for its varied meanings none of which seem to fit the context here. Cone has a second entry for apilaapana (a+pilaapana -- non-floating away) but you are directed to look it up under pilaapana in a volume not yet published. It is difficult to discuss this matter further without you or Suan having read Norman's article and looking up apilaapana in Cone's dictionary which refers to this article under apilapati which is how I found out about it and happened to have it. I just wanted to bring it to your attention after going over Norman's interesting article just recently for the first time so it's new to me too. It also mentions the commentarial interpretation of apilaapana. Perhaps I can summarize the article (a little over 2 pages long) when I have access to it again. The CPD follows the commentaries on apilaapana. > Jim, I just looked at SN43, Asankhatasamyutta which you referred to as > being 'somewhat confusing' in this light.I don't read there being many > paths, but various aspects of the same path, eg 4 Foundations of > Mindfulness, 4 Rt Efforts, Enlightenment Factors, 8fold path, Faculties, > Powers and so on. They are not alternatives as I understand but I agree > that taken on its own - especially the first segment - it is rather > misleading. This is why I don't think suttas can be taken 'on their own'. I once calculated that there are 1748 suttas (56x33) in this sa.myutta which only takes up a few pages. I'm reading here that there are 56 paths leading to nibbaaana (or one of its 32 synonyms). eg. samatha is a path, vipassanaa is another, the two together yet another, and so on. Perhaps the explanation (which Soma doesn't translate) in the Satipatthanasutta commentary on how the 4 satipatthanas taken together can be one path might help sort this one out. > I really appreciate your comments on Soma's translation and was intrigued > by the comment about the part misssed out with regard to the parrot.Could > the Kuru pets really develop satipatthana? Don't we read elsewhere that > it's impossible in the animal realms? I was expecting Christine to take > great joy in this comment;-) I'm really interested to hear more sometime. > Did he hear about satipatthana from the Mahatheri? It must be highly > exceptional. I hope one day there is a complete translation. I think this wonderful story is worth putting on the must translate shelf. The parrot's name was Buddharakkhita and after practising satipatthana for awhile he was seized by a predatory bird but saved by some novice nuns. The mahatheri upon asking him what he was thinking during this violent incident (he kept to the meditation subject) predicted that in the future this would be a condition for the destruction of becoming (bhavakkhaya) for him. There is also a story somewhere about bats (500 of them, I think) overhearing dhamma in a cave which turned out to be a condition in a future life for their spiritual attainments. So it seems that animals can benefit from the teachings too. Best wishes, Jim 16216 From: Date: Fri Oct 11, 2002 4:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 11, Comm Hi, Rob (and Larry) - In a message dated 10/11/02 1:39:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > > Hi Larry, > > As I see it, satipatthana is a process. It is an activity. It is a > discipline. > > On the other hand, a supramundane citta is a once in a lifetime (in > fact, once in all lifetimes) event. > > Satipatthana might help you achieve a supramundane citta but it is > certainly not a requirement. There were many cases in the Suttas of > people attaining supramundane states (i.e. becoming an Arahant) > without practising satipatthana. > > I hope that this helps. > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) > ========================= But might we correctly infer in such cases that pa~n~na bhavana occurred earlier in the present lifetime or in a previous lifetime? Now, perhaps 'ekayana magga' may mean only a *direct* path or a *single-goal* path (a one-way path), and not "the only path", but if, one way or another, it is, at end, "the only path", then it is an unavoidable sine qua non, and it must lie in the history of every arahant, whether buddha, paccekabuddha, or hearer. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16217 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 11, 2002 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 11, Comm Dear Larry, The discussion was about the way being both mundane and supramundane or only mundane. As I understand it, the development of satipatthana is mundane: mindfulness and understanding of all conditioned namas and rupas of our life. As regards the stages of vipassana: this begins with mundane vipassana ~naa.nas, and then after change-of-lineage-knowledge enlightenment is attained, and there is magga ~naa.na, which is lokuttara. op 10-10-2002 01:30 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > Could someone explain this piece of the commentary (#11)? I'm just not > getting it. > 16218 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 11, 2002 10:00am Subject: Perfections, Energy, Ch 6, no 4 Perfections, Energy, Ch 6, no 4 Viriya is the attendant of paññå. The Venerable Såriputta explains about the development and accumulation of the perfections leading to the complete eradication of defilements at the attainment of arahatship. We read in the ³Kåmasutta Niddesa² (Sutta explanation about Sense pleasures, Mahåniddesa, Khuddaka Nikåya): There is a simile of two cities: the city of bandits and the city of peace. At that time the thought occurred to a general, ³So long as the city of bandits exists the city of peace is not free from danger. I shall destroy the city of bandits. He put on his armor, took his sword and entered the city of bandits. He struck with his sword the post they had erected at the gate of the city. He destroyed the building and the widows of the gateway, removed the bolt, destroyed the wall and filled up the moat. Thereupon he took down the flag they had raised as a symbol of dignity of their city, and he set fire to the city. Then he entered the city of peace, ascended the castle, surrounded by his group of relatives, and he took delicious flavoured food. This is the simile. Personality belief, sakkåyaditthi (3 , can be compared to the city of bandits. Nibbåna can be compared to the city of peace. The person who applies himself to mental development can be compared to the general. He thinks, ³Personality belief is a tie and so long as I am bound by that tie I am not free from danger². Here we see that the akusala dhamma that should be eradicated first is personality belief which takes realities for self. It must be paññå which sees the difference between the city of bandits and the city of peace. The city of peace is calm, whereas the city of bandits means disturbance, confusion and restlessness. So long as there is wrong view which takes realities for self, being or person, one cannot be free from restlessness, disturbance and worry. Thus, one should understand that all defilements and dukkha are bound up with one¹s ³own person², which actually are nåma dhammas and rúpa dhammas. One is completely free from defilements and from dukkha when there are no more nåma dhammas and rúpa dhammas. This cannot be realized without courage, without the perfection of viriya. We read in the ³Exposition of Jatukaùùin¹s Questions² (Khuddaka Nikåya) that Jatukannin had heard that the Buddha was courageous and that he therefore was called a hero, víra. The following passage gives the reasons why he was called a hero. There is an association in meaning between the word víra, hero, and viriya, which is the state of a strong man. All that is said in the passage below refers to viriya cetasika. We read: He had perseverance and was therefore called a hero. He was valiant and was therefore called a hero. He caused others to persevere and was therefore called a hero. He had great capacities and was therefore called a hero. He was brave and always progressing, he was not a coward, not frightened, not fearful, he did not flee, he had eliminated fear and cowardice, he was without any terror, and thus, the Exalted One was courageous. The Exalted One was without the akusala dhammas of this world, he was beyond the suffering of hell, he was endowed with energy. The Buddha had viriya, the four right efforts, he was courageous and steadfast of mind, and therefore he was called courageous. Footnote 3. There are twenty kinds of personality belief, sakkåya ditthi, which are obtained by applying four types of that belief to each of the five khandhas: the belief to be indentical with them, to be contained in them, to be independent of them and to be the owner of them. 16219 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Oct 11, 2002 0:12pm Subject: Re: Dukkha - suffering/RobM Hi RobM, Thank you for your concern - I am truly sorry to be the cause of it, I should be more careful about how I express my feelings - maybe a stronger lock on the 'drafts' folder :). The situation Ajahn Bramavamso mentions is uncommon, and unless the counsellor left a note, no-one can really know why they killed themselves. Attribution of a reason by others may be incorrect. After a suicide, the most common statement is "Who would have thought it ... not Harry ... He never gave any indication, didn't seem to have any real problems, must have been because ". A little bit about 'Where I Work': We are crisis workers in an acute hospital setting, so naturally just about all situations we are asked to be involved in will be highly stressful and have recently occurred. We are mindful of each others emotional, mental and physical strengths, and there is no hesitation in telling another worker if concerns are held about how they are coping. All workers have (as a bare minimum) a four year Undergraduate degree in Social Work . Individual professional supervision sessions are held fortnightly with a Senior, and are compulsory. As a Teaching Hospital, close professional contacts are also maintained with University staff, we often laugh that it wasn't enough to graduate - we'd have to work overseas to escape our old lecturers and professors (and then, only if it wasn't in Britain.). I am formally supervised and also supervise and support others in this way. We have mental health wards within the hospital, fully staffed with Psychiatrists, Nurses and Allied Health Staff, who would come immediately for a consultation if requested by a concerned staff Supervisor. Thank you for calling me a 'garbage pail' :):) The point being made is well understood, and part of the training - but I'm sure I can use that illustration (strategically) at work next week. :) I liked the 'Guardians of the World' article by Bhikkhu Bodhi (Actually - I like anything by Bhikkhu Bodhi). Another article of his that I use as a constant support is "A Remedy for Despair" which encourages reflection on kamma and its fruits ... B.B. is 'one who knows' - "to the extent that this flowering of empathy is not a mere emotional effusion but is accompanied by a facility for accurate observation, it can easily turn into a chute plunging us down from our new-found freedom into a chasm of anguish and despair. For when, with eyes unhindered by emotively tinged blinkers, we turn to contemplate the wide expanse of the world, we find ourselves gazing into a mass of suffering that is vertiginous in its volume and ghastly in its intensity. The guarantor of our complacency is the dumb thoughtless glee with which we acquiesce in our daily ration of sensual excitation and ego-enhancing kudos. Let us raise our heads a little higher and cast our eyes about, and we behold a world steeped in pain where the ills inherent in the normal life-cycle are compounded still more by the harshness of nature, the grim irony of accident, and the cruelty of human beings." This is truth. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/news/essay12.html Thanks for your kindness Rob, metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Christine, > > You might want to read, "Guardians of the World" by Bhikkhu Bodhi > > http://www.buddhistinformation.com/guardians_of_the_world.htm > > I summarized it as part of my class notes on Hiri and Ottappa, but > you may want to read the entire essay. > > Recently, I was listening to a CD by Ajan Bram (based in Perth), and > he talked about Ajan Chah's advice to those who do counseling. He > said that you must be like a garbage pail and allow everybody to > dump their suffering into you (lightening their load). But he said > that it was critical that you be like a garbage pail with a hole in > the bottom, so that none of the suffering says inside of you. You > have to let it go. Ajan Bram mentioned that one the devotees at his > temple did not follow this advice and ended up committing suicide; > she had no real problems of her own, but could not let go of other > people's suffering. > > Christine, I a very concerned about you. I understand that your job > is to listen to horrible things. I can understand that what you hear > conditions a lot of dosa (aversion). The nature of aversion is like > a red-hot iron rod; if you pick it up, you burn yourself. Burning > yourself is not good for you, nor is it good for the people you are > tyring to help. > > Think of those horrible things as hot iron rods. Whomever handles > them will get burned. I know that Freud believed that by getting > things out in the open, it would help to cure the patient. > So "dumping their hot iron rods inside your garbage pail" may be > good for your patients. You must have a hole in the bottom of your > garbage pail, otherwise you may end up needing more counseling than > your patients. > > With Metta, > Rob M :-) 16220 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Oct 11, 2002 0:20pm Subject: Re: Dukkha - suffering/KenH --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Christine, You say: "Do I detect possum-stirring?" ------------------------------------- CF--->No, KenH, not a case of stirring the possum - though possibly I would plead 'guilty as charged, Sir' to spitting the dummy .... I notice that I understand a particular area of the Dhamma, and then things happen and I realise I never really knew that area at all ... After a series of violent situations involving child patients, I started reflecting on dukkha and kamma, and reading about The Four Noble Truths. Mainly from the Suttas, Bhikkhu Bodhi, Ven. Dr. Walpola Sri Rahula, plus thought provoking replies to Eric's post. Dukkha as birth and aging leading to death, and life's disappointments, is familiar, acceptable, understandable. But it is hard to accept dukkha and kamma as part of the deliberate brutality involving children who are most helpless and without protection. It is these whose protection I strive for, but sometimes fail to secure ... ------------------------------ You say: "It's tough for us but it's ignorance and craving, not Buddhism, that makes it tough. ------------------------------- CF--> Ignorance and craving ... so much of it, so resilient, so well disguised - cut it down in one place and it almost seems to encourage further branching growth - a bit like Lantana really. ------------------------------------------- You say: Our fragile grasp of the truth, merely intellectual though it may be, is far superior to the wishful thinking of religion. Even when we are down in the dumps, you and I don't turn to an unseen god -- we stick with our Dhamma study. We must find some comfort in it. -------------------------------------------- CF---> Can't find it at the moment, but I'm sure you're right - must be a reason for sticking with it...:) ------------------------------- You say: Sorry I couldn't be more helpful. Ken H ------------------------------------------- CF---> Your reply, as always, is threaded through with metta and contains many useful points to reflect on. metta and thanks, Christine 16221 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Oct 11, 2002 0:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dukkha - suffering/Howard Hi Howard, When I wrote my post, I think I was sinking into 'the slough of despond', lucky there are good friends here to lean down and offer a lift up. :) You know the old saying, "Usually I try to take one day at a time, but lately, several days have attacked me at once..." If only the Jhanas were readily achievable for the manyfolk ... but I honestly don't know of anyone (that I trust) who states that they personally have achieved them. (I know some I trust who have set attaining jhana as a goal.) Avalokitesvara, the Bodhisattva of Compassion - how unfamiliar and unusual I found the readings about him at first. "He guards the world in the interval between the departure of the historical Buddha, Sakyamuni, and the appearance of the future Buddha, Maitreya." Reading about the great vow of Avalokitesvara - Is this possible, or is it a yearning fantasy of those who are suffering? Thanks for your caring post Howard - I found it a real support, especially the reminders about "the Dhamma has something going for it that makes it superior, namely *the truth*. .... Yes, the talk is of aeons. But aeons have already passed! We are now practicing the Dhamma. That is already auspicious and bodes well for "good" births. And an awakening can come at any time!!" and "....." We shouldn't despair, I think, but should be grateful for having had the opportunity to come across the Dhamma in this auspicious human life of ours, and we should make the most of it. Now is the time, I think, to do all we can: to train under a kalyanamitta who has gone far if possible, and, as best we can, and however we can, to persevere in our practice." There are a very few people I look to as kalyanamitta - my judgment is that they are much further along in the development of understanding than I, and can be trusted to have my spiritual welfare at heart when replying to questions, or giving advice. But your phrasing sounds a little more formal ... and I wonder how you find such a one. metta, Christine 16222 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Oct 11, 2002 0:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dukkha - suffering/WL Hi WL, I really enjoyed your post WL. It is very true what you say about finding the meaning behind the words, that they are only a tool used by others to try to help and guide us. You have really given me something to consider by sharing about your path and how you embrace Christianity and Buddhism. And thank you for mentioning children. Most parents would understand your feelings of 'Many times, I regretted bringing my children to this world.' - As Bob Dylan sings it is 'the worst fear that can ever be hurled, fear to bring children into the world.' (Masters of War). But, from a buddhist perspective, I wonder whether either not having children, or having children, would serve any purpose - the 'thirst' to re-exist would have found embodiment in some form. At work, I can usually come to terms with an infant/child's quick death. I try to reflect that the body may be extremely young, but the everchanging process of cittas, that it once supported, has been journeying since beginningless time in many forms. It is when children have not died, but are unrescueable - still trapped in ongoing deliberately inflicted suffering, that I find buddhist explanations of kamma and anatta difficult to apply. I envy your equanimity, perhaps one day ... metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Uan Chih Liu" wrote: > Hi Christine, > I so empathize with you. A couple of years back, I, too, was overwhelmed > by the suffering I see in this world. I feel nothing but pessimism and > total > despair that the world is coming to an end. Many times, I regretted > bringing > my children to this world, and spent my time just lying in bed, feeling > hopeless. God provided me consolation that I shall be salvaged from this > pain, and it was faith that keeps me living. > > Then I was introduced to Buddhism. It brought to me a brand new > perspective of things. Buddhism striked me as a harder and more > disciplinary way to get to truth. It forced me to really analyze what's > going > on in this world and eventually help me the comprehend the true cause of > human suffering. And the understanding of anatta is the key to that > understanding of the cause so that when I came to that realization, I > actually found instead of despair, a calmness that arises from that > understanding. And it led me to gratitude that I am living, that I am a > human, and that I have the potential to be salvaged from the whirling sea > of suffering while living. And it gave me hope that everyone has the > potential to be salvaged (just as God has promised). Even though I may > not be enlightened by the end of my life, but accumulation does occur. > And I have thus made a vow to myself that I shall seek the truth, > and I shall help the others to see the truth. It's not an easy way, > and it takes much discipline, but the hope and the determination > kept me going. > > There are many times in life, sometimes you just want a shoulder to cry on, > and someone to turn to for solace, and God served that role. But > ultimately we have to get up and continue the journey on our own to > truely understand what life is telling us. > > And finally I think it's crucial to read the meanings behind the words. > Words are invented by human beings to convey the message. > However, words are not sufficient. All the writings are attempts by > those with good heart trying the best they can using human tool > "words" to help others see the truth they have come to realize. > They are just trying to set out a footprints for others to follow > so we don't get lost in the woods. But don't just look at the > footprints. See what's surrounding you to get a better > orientation of yourself and to experience the scenary. It's only > through experience that we'll come to truth. Also, showing > people truth takes teamwork by many people, some people > serves as the teacher, some as translators, some as scholoars. > You will find the path you will be taking by looking at yourself, > understanding your inclination. > > You've asked me how I embrace Christianity and Buddhism. > This has been my path. Hope it helps! > > metta, > WL 16223 From: Date: Fri Oct 11, 2002 8:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dukkha - suffering/Howard Hi, Christine - In a message dated 10/11/02 3:26:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > There are a very few people I look to as kalyanamitta - my judgment > is that they are much further along in the development of > understanding than I, and can be trusted to have my spiritual welfare > at heart when replying to questions, or giving advice. But your > phrasing sounds a little more formal ... and I wonder how you find > such a one. > ========================= Yes, I meant it formally. But I don't think finding a true kalyanamitta is easy. There's an old occultist saying: "When the student is ready, the master will appear". Perhaps that's so. Meanwhile, I suppose we can search within the Bhikkhu Sangha as a likely source. However, until a true kalyanamitta has been found we can take the Dhamma as our guide. That, together with our practice, is the true guide. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16224 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Oct 11, 2002 0:47pm Subject: Re: Dukkha - suffering/Paul Hi Paul, Thank you for your explanations and comments. What you say is exactly so - Dukkha, how it arises, how it ceases, and The Way to its cessation is all the Buddha came to teach. It is true we sometimes only regard hurtful or unliked things as dukkha - so it is good to have your reminders that the happy times are dukkha as well. I like this other reminder that just about everything is dukkha also:"A contemporary definition: Dukkha is: Disturbance, irritation, dejection, worry, despair, fear, dread, anguish, anxiety; vulnerability, injury, inability, inferiority; sickness, aging, decay of body and faculties, senility; pain/pleasure; excitement/boredom; deprivation/excess; desire/frustration, suppression; longing/aimlessness; hope/hopelessness; effort, activity, striving/repression; loss, want, insufficiency/satiety; love/lovelessness, friendlessness; dislike, aversion/attraction; parenthood/childlessness; submission/rebellion; decision/indecisiveness, vacillation, uncertainty." -- Francis Story in Suffering, in Vol. II of The Three Basic Facts of Existence (Kandy: Buddhist Publication Society, 1983) metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "ajahn_paul" wrote: > Hi, > > In Buddhism, there r 2 sets of "Dukkha", one is called "8 Dukkha", > the other one is called "3 Dukkha". > > 8 Dukkha is : "Birth is dukkha, aging is dukkha, death is dukkha; > sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair are dukkha; association > with the unbeloved is dukkha; separation from the loved is dukkha; > not getting what is wanted is dukkha. Illness is dukkha. > > 3 Dukkha is : the stressfulness of pain, the stressfulness of > fabrication, the stressfulness of change. These are the three forms > of stressfulness." > > The other way of 3 Dukkha is : 1)the suffer from our body and mind, > such as hungry, feeling cold etc..2) the suffer from changing, such > as situation cannot be kept as u want. 3) the suffer from all living > things and material will deteriorate, like flowers will die, even a > building will collapse. > > Wish u can understand what im trying to say... if some of u know what > i mean, please help me to explain! ^_~ > > Paul 16225 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Oct 11, 2002 1:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dukkha - suffering/Sarah Hi Sarah, S: "... "Dhamma is dhamma: it cannot be changed, it is the truth."In other words, whether we `get it' or not, whether anyone `gets it' or not, it is the truth of the nature of life." ---------------------------------------- C: Yes, as you have all reminded me. I think the problem is/was that I did 'get it' - I just didn't 'like' it.:) ---------------------------------------- S: " ... The problems we experience and see all around us - the suffering, the greed, the hatred, the destruction and so on, are no different from those that have always been experienced and always will. There is only one Way. This Way, the development of satipatthana, is the highest `good' and a condition for all other kinds of `good' to be understood and performed as well. At times of wisdom or other wholesome states, there is no `crushing burden', but lightness and ease and lack of concern for one's own lot. --------------------------------------- C: Yes, - I was going to say "it is not 'my own lot' that I am concerned about, but on second thoughts, it is ... my faulty magic wand with its inability to make the world be non-harming and kind, and my feelings concerning this. I'll hang about over in Larry's corner for a while and get back on The Way. -------------------------------------- S: I realise these brief comments are probably not very helpful for you at this time, but I'm glad you can honestly ask the questions of real concern to yourself and many others here. `Appreciate' as Num would say. ------------------------------------------- C: It's always a toss up - to post, or not to post? - But this is such a 'safe' list on which to reveal ones ignorance (no need to pretend to a greater understanding) and defilements (and they leap out anyway, even if one is trying to pretend they don't exist). Support and guidance is always forthcoming from other members. Thank you Sarah and Jon for providing and maintaining DSG as a non- threatening space to learn and grow. ------------------------------------ metta, Sarah ======= metta, Chris 16226 From: Date: Fri Oct 11, 2002 3:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 11, Comm Hi Nina and Rob, Would it be correct to say that nibbana is not an object of satipatthana except as concept (as in 4 noble truths)? What kind of practice does a sotapanna engage in? Larry 16227 From: Date: Fri Oct 11, 2002 3:28pm Subject: ekayana Would people like another week to consider the rather lengthy commentary on ekaayano aya.m bhikkhave maggo? Also could we have a literal translation of these words? Does yano = maggo? And what does aya.m mean? Larry 16228 From: Date: Fri Oct 11, 2002 0:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Why did the Buddha meditate? In a message dated 10/10/2002 2:50:11 PM Pacific Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: > Yes, you're correct, and I did realize that you weren't voicing just a > personal opinion with that. I believe it is mentioned in several suttas. > The > Buddha taught the jhanas as a peaceful abiding here and now. But he taught > that to his followers, who needed such. He, however, didn't need such a > temporary peaceful abiding. He had reached the far shore. So I don't think > that would account for his continuing to meditate as a Buddha. > > With metta, > Howard > Hi Howard I believe this question comes up in the suttas specifically regarding arahats. Its not that they need to meditate, but apparently do prefer pleasant abidings over other options. I believe he original question on this topic already understood that the Buddha didn't "need" to meditate but was curious as to why he continued to meditate. When I come across the sutta reference I will site it but it may be months before then. TG 16229 From: Date: Fri Oct 11, 2002 1:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Why did the Buddha meditate? Hi, TG - In a message dated 10/11/02 7:48:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > Hi Howard > > I believe this question comes up in the suttas specifically regarding > arahats. Its not that they need to meditate, but apparently do prefer > pleasant abidings over other options. > > I believe he original question on this topic already understood that the > Buddha didn't "need" to meditate but was curious as to why he continued to > meditate. > > When I come across the sutta reference I will site it but it may be months > before then. > > TG > > ========================== Mmm, I get you. But if it is true that the Buddha had preferences for certain states over others, and not just to achieve some useful goal, then complete enlightenment is something less than I understood it to be. It suggests that a living arahant does not have complete equanimity. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16230 From: Date: Fri Oct 11, 2002 2:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Why did the Buddha meditate? Hello Howard, all >Mmm, I get you. But if it is true that the Buddha had preferences for >certain states over others, and not just to achieve some useful goal, then >complete enlightenment is something less than I understood it to be. It >suggests that a living arahant does not have complete equanimity. I was thinking that since the Buddha didn't need to meditate, having reached the end, he might have meditated not as a means, but somehow as an end in itself. While 'pleasant abiding' didn't seem quite right (though the earlier post which proposed "for aesthetic reasons" does strike a sympathetic chord with me, and is perhaps on this track) perhaps it's as an expression of equanimity or enlightenment. Morality / sila can be seen as an expression, or the natural behavior, of enlightenment: the precepts are how an arahat would naturally behave, having no lobha and dosa. So it also seems that wisdom / panna is the natural expression of the way an arahant would see things. So, also, the third limb of the 8-fold path, meditation / samadhi, though this isn't so clear. If that's correct then meditation should not be seen as instrumental, any more than morality or wisdom; though they are incidentally a means, since we're not enlightened. (He surmised.) I thought there might simply be some clearer answer. (I don't know about the reply: to experience nibbana.) metta, stephen 16231 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Oct 11, 2002 6:42pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Why did the Buddha meditate? Hi Howard, TG,and Stephen, What do you think the Buddha was doing? Maybe resting in mindfulness? Others slept, the busy world stopped as it does at night. It was crucial for our benefit that he teach as long as he did ... does becoming an Arahat mean that the body and sense organs become perfect? Or do they remain as they were and continue to degenerate? His physical body was that of an older man for most of the period that he taught. The body was eighty years old at his parinibbana, and had experienced a relatively austere life with few comforts by our standards. The Buddha gave out so much in his Teaching, mostly surrounded by needy people, he slept very little, and the body that supported him was surely as fragile as yours and mine. In the Jara Sutta (Old Age), Ananda may not have received the gold star for tact that day - "It's amazing, lord. It's astounding, how the Blessed One's complexion is no longer so clear & bright; his limbs are flabby & wrinkled; his back, bent forward; there's a discernible change in his faculties -- the faculty of the eye, the faculty of the ear, the faculty of the nose, the faculty of the tongue, the faculty of the body." The Buddha actually knew and experienced aging in this last rebirth, somehow that is comforting ... http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn48041.html#spit Perhaps, as he hardly slept at all, this resting and abiding in mindfulness was needed for conservation of energy and health of the aging rupa-kaya which supported him for the benefit all beings? metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., oreznoone@a... wrote: > > Hello Howard, all > > >Mmm, I get you. But if it is true that the Buddha had preferences for > >certain states over others, and not just to achieve some useful goal, then > >complete enlightenment is something less than I understood it to be. It > >suggests that a living arahant does not have complete equanimity. > I was thinking that since the Buddha didn't need to meditate, having reached > the end, he might have meditated not as a means, but somehow as an end in > itself. While 'pleasant abiding' didn't seem quite right (though the earlier > post which proposed "for aesthetic reasons" does strike a sympathetic chord > with me, and is perhaps on this track) perhaps it's as an expression of > equanimity or enlightenment. > Morality / sila can be seen as an expression, or the natural behavior, of > enlightenment: the precepts are how an arahat would naturally behave, having > no lobha and dosa. So it also seems that wisdom / panna is the natural > expression of the way an arahant would see things. So, also, the third limb > of the 8-fold path, meditation / samadhi, though this isn't so clear. > If that's correct then meditation should not be seen as instrumental, any > more than morality or wisdom; though they are incidentally a means, since > we're not enlightened. (He surmised.) > I thought there might simply be some clearer answer. (I don't know about the > reply: to experience nibbana.) > metta, stephen 16232 From: Date: Fri Oct 11, 2002 3:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Why did the Buddha meditate? Hi, Christine - I think that what you propose in the following makes much sense, and I expect that it may well be part of the answer. Generalizing, I think that the Buddha meditated for one or more skillful reasons/purposes, but never out of desire (tanha) or discontent. With metta, Howard In a message dated 10/11/02 9:44:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > > > Hi Howard, TG,and Stephen, > > What do you think the Buddha was doing? Maybe resting in > mindfulness? Others slept, the busy world stopped as it does at > night. It was crucial for our benefit that he teach as long as he > did ... does becoming an Arahat mean that the body and sense organs > become perfect? Or do they remain as they were and continue to > degenerate? His physical body was that of an older man for most of > the period that he taught. The body was eighty years old at his > parinibbana, and had experienced a relatively austere life with few > comforts by our standards. The Buddha gave out so much in his > Teaching, mostly surrounded by needy people, he slept very little, > and the body that supported him was surely as fragile as yours and > mine. > In the Jara Sutta (Old Age), Ananda may not have received the gold > star for tact that day - > "It's amazing, lord. It's astounding, how the Blessed One's > complexion is no longer so clear & bright; his limbs are flabby & > wrinkled; his back, bent forward; there's a discernible change in his > faculties -- the faculty of the eye, the faculty of the ear, the > faculty of the nose, the faculty of the tongue, the faculty of the > body." > The Buddha actually knew and experienced aging in this last rebirth, > somehow that is comforting ... > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn48041.html#spit > Perhaps, as he hardly slept at all, this resting and abiding in > mindfulness was needed for conservation of energy and health of the > aging rupa-kaya which supported him for the benefit all beings? > > metta, > Christine > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., oreznoone@a... wrote: > > > > Hello Howard, all > > > > >Mmm, I get you. But if it is true that the Buddha had preferences > for > > >certain states over others, and not just to achieve some useful > goal, then > > >complete enlightenment is something less than I understood it to > be. It > > >suggests that a living arahant does not have complete equanimity. > > I was thinking that since the Buddha didn't need to meditate, > having reached > > the end, he might have meditated not as a means, but somehow as an > end in > > itself. While 'pleasant abiding' didn't seem quite right (though > the earlier > > post which proposed "for aesthetic reasons" does strike a > sympathetic chord > > with me, and is perhaps on this track) perhaps it's as an > expression of > > equanimity or enlightenment. > > Morality / sila can be seen as an expression, or the natural > behavior, of > > enlightenment: the precepts are how an arahat would naturally > behave, having > > no lobha and dosa. So it also seems that wisdom / panna is the > natural > > expression of the way an arahant would see things. So, also, the > third limb > > of the 8-fold path, meditation / samadhi, though this isn't so > clear. > > If that's correct then meditation should not be seen as > instrumental, any > > more than morality or wisdom; though they are incidentally a means, > since > > we're not enlightened. (He surmised.) > > I thought there might simply be some clearer answer. (I don't know > about the > > reply: to experience nibbana.) > > metta, stephen > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16233 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Fri Oct 11, 2002 8:41pm Subject: Re: Dukkha - sufferingPaul --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "ajahn_paul" wrote: > > The other way of 3 Dukkha is : 1)the suffer from our body and mind, > such as hungry, feeling cold etc..2) the suffer from changing, such > as situation cannot be kept as u want. 3) the suffer from all living > things and material will deteriorate, like flowers will die, even a > building will collapse. > > Wish u can understand what im trying to say... if some of u know what > i mean, please help me to explain! ^_~ >___________ Dear Paul, Thanks for bringing up the three types of Dukkha. As you said in your earlier post Dukkha is constant; even happy feeling is dukkha . I appreciate your understanding of this. The three types are 1 "Dukkha-dukkha, the vedana that is not sukkha or upekha, .ie painful feeling 2. Viparinama-dukkha, when pleasant feeling falls away or changes, 3. Sankhara-dukkha, any instant of arising and falling away of sankhara-dhamma, impermanence, the characteristic of all sankkhara." The first, dukkha-dukkha, includes all painful feeling. In the human realm we experience this regularly as either painful bodily feeling or as painful mental feeling associated with dosa. Both are vedana and nama. The Brahama gods experience no dukkha-dukkha during their aeons as gods. When they are reborn in lower realms painful feeling will arise again. In the hell realms dukkha-dukkha is extreme. The second, viparinama dukkha can be understood by considering the 6doors: when visible object comes into contact with the eye-sense and seeing consciousness arises. If the object is pleasant a process will arise whereby pleasurable feeling arises. When the visible object goes the sense pleasure to the eye disappears. The same with all the other doors of ear, nose tongue, body mind. Thus all beings are forced to do all kinds of things, both good and bad , to try to ensure a continual supply of pleasant objects for these doors. The truly pathetic, miserable nature of samasara can be gauged by how often we indulge in activities (designed to bring us these pleasurable objects) that as akusala kamma, can only give unpleasant results in the future. Thus deep is ignorance. And as I understand it the third, sankhara-dukkha – the continual rising and ceasing of dhammas is the deepest meaning of dukkha. All conditioned phenomena, all dhammas are in such an extraordinary flux that to say they exist is an extreme. This is the meaning of dukkha ariya-sacca, the first noble truth, so hard to comprehend. Anyone can reason and understand the first two aspects of dukkha. We all know about pain, dukkha dukkha, and we can all see to some extent change occurring at the 6doors. But to penetrate the aspect of sankhara-dukkha is only possible by the correct, gradual development of satipatthana thereby fulfilling the 37 bodhipakkhyadhamma and the eightfactored path. The Buddha often said "Birth is suffering old age is suffering, death is suffering…….In short the five aggregates of clinging are dukkha." The deep meaning of the last part of the phrase becomes clear if we consider the Samyutta-Nikaya, Khandha-Vagga where it says "Corporeality is a murderer, as are vedana, sanna, sankhara and vinnana". Yes, we are so attached to these khandas but this is only because we can't see that at every moment they are breaking up. Thus what we take for 'ourselves' are nothing other than Dukkha. This dukkha-ariya-sacca is deep. Robert 16234 From: Date: Fri Oct 11, 2002 6:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Why did the Buddha meditate? Hello Christine, all >Perhaps, as he hardly slept at all, this resting and abiding in >mindfulness was needed for conservation of energy and health of the >aging rupa-kaya which supported him for the benefit all beings? I'm not sure about the support part—perhaps!—but abiding in mindfulness, the natural manifestation of enlightenment, is a good way of putting what I was suggesting. Certainly an end in itself, as well as being instrumental to that very end. Okay, I'm satisfied with that answer (until someone shoots it down ;-) metta, stephen 16235 From: Date: Fri Oct 11, 2002 10:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 11, Comm Dear Nina and Rob, I think there must be a mundane satipatthana and a supramundane satipatthana. The mundane satipatthana is what is described in the sutta and is characterized as the "only way" [to the supramundane], I think. Consider the following from Visuddhimagga XXII par. 40: In the moment of fruition the thirty three* excepting the Four Right Endeavours are found. When these are found in a single consciousness in this way, it is the one kind of mindfulness whose object is nibbana that is called 'the Four Foundations of Mindfulness' because it accomplishes the function of abandoning the [four] perceptions of beauty, etc., in the [four things] beginning with the body. And also the one kind of energy is called 'Four Right Endeavors' because it accomplishes the [four] functions beginning with preventing the arising of the unarisen [unprofitable]. But there is no decrease or or increase with the rest. L: this paragraph requires extensive explanation which I can't offer but it seems clear that there is a lokuttara satipatthana. * 33 + 4 = 37 bodhipakkhiya dhamma Larry 16236 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sat Oct 12, 2002 1:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Why did the Buddha meditate? Hi Christine Buddha got to show that he is human and set an example for his disciple. Just imagine if pple thinks if he is superhuman then many followers will follow him by his superhuman rather by his example of human fragility and with this fragility there is hope for enlightment with the right effort. We got to ask do he need sleep at all? My opinion there is no need and there is no need to use mindfulness for conservation of energy at all. kind rgds KC --- oreznoone@a... wrote: > > Hello Christine, all > > >Perhaps, as he hardly slept at all, this resting and abiding in > >mindfulness was needed for conservation of energy and health of > the > >aging rupa-kaya which supported him for the benefit all beings? > I'm not sure about the support part—perhaps!—but abiding in > mindfulness, the > natural manifestation of enlightenment, is a good way of putting > what I was > suggesting. Certainly an end in itself, as well as being > instrumental to that > very end. > Okay, I'm satisfied with that answer (until someone shoots it down > ;-) > metta, stephen > > 16237 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Oct 12, 2002 2:44am Subject: [dsg] Re: Why did the Buddha meditate? Hello KC, (Howard, Stephen and all), {I've just been trying to catch up with those in The Way corner ... which means I'm reading the The Discourse on the Arousing of Mindfulness. Hint to any others lagging behind - nine cemetery contemplations and one reflection of the repulsiveness of the body can quite take the edge off the evening. And, unless you are trying to lose weight, I'd advise it after a meal, not before.} Ken, Yours is an interesting perspective. I don't have any strong opinion as to why the Buddha meditated, if that was what he was doing. It was just a suggestion thrown on the table. I think the normal routines of daily life over forty five years would have shown people he was human. (Eating, breathing, drinking, urinating, defecating, coughing, vomiting, talking, bathing, sniffing, spitting, sleeping, aging and all the other things bodies do.) Ananda certainly told him he was getting wrinkled and flabby. Why wouldn't his body and mind have needed sleep, if it needed everything else? He was still a human being (wasn't he?) even though a Samma Sammbuddha? I think the original question was "--- In dhammastudygroup@y..., oreznoone@a... wrote: > Hello all, > (If meditation is instrumental, for the attainment of an end) Why did the > Buddha meditate throughout his life, including the very end? > metta, stephen" And this question seems to have been raised not because the Buddha didn't meditate, but because he did. Glad you're still around KC, metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Christine > > Buddha got to show that he is human and set an example for his > disciple. Just imagine if pple thinks if he is superhuman then many > followers will follow him by his superhuman rather by his example of > human fragility and with this fragility there is hope for enlightment > with the right effort. > > We got to ask do he need sleep at all? My opinion there is no need > and there is no need to use mindfulness for conservation of energy at > all. > > > kind rgds > KC > > --- oreznoone@a... wrote: > > > Hello Christine, all > > > > >Perhaps, as he hardly slept at all, this resting and abiding in > > >mindfulness was needed for conservation of energy and health of > > the > > >aging rupa-kaya which supported him for the benefit all beings? > > I'm not sure about the support partâ€"perhaps!â€"but abiding in > > mindfulness, the > > natural manifestation of enlightenment, is a good way of putting > > what I was > > suggesting. Certainly an end in itself, as well as being > > instrumental to that > > very end. > > Okay, I'm satisfied with that answer (until someone shoots it down > > ;-) > > metta, stephen 16238 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Oct 12, 2002 3:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] the only way Dear Rob M, Do you have a scriptural reference for your statement? We just read in the Way 12: The five khandhas , all conditioned nama and rupa are among the four satipatthanas of body, feeling, citta and dhamma (comprising also cetasikas). What else is there? You are probably thinking of those who attained arahatship after having listened to a few words said by the Buddha. They had accumulated panna in former lives, but also at that very moment they penetrated the true nature of nama and rupa. They were mindful and understood whatever appeared through the six doors. They penetrated Dependent Origination: whatever is of the nature to arise has to cease. They had bodies with arms, legs, nails, skin, but they realized that these were not belonging to a self, just elements. When your are for example standing in front of your pupils, talking and gesticulating, what is there? The four Applications are very much life now, they can remind you that there is not my arms, hands, mouth, not my thinking, my feelings, but just nama elements and rupa elements. Without satipatthana we take bodily and mental phenomena for self. Nina. op 11-10-2002 07:17 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > Satipatthana might help you achieve a supramundane citta but it is > certainly not a requirement. There were many cases in the Suttas of > people attaining supramundane states (i.e. becoming an Arahant) > without practising satipatthana. 16239 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Oct 12, 2002 4:32am Subject: Fwd: Re: Welcome to dhammastudygroup --- Eddie Lou wrote: > Hello, All, > > I did not get to read this welcome email until now. > Better late than never. > > --- dhammastudygroup Moderator > wrote: > > > > Dear Dhamma Friend, > > > > Welcome to the group. > > > > We hope you will take part in and benefit from the > > exchange of views here. > > > > All new members are invited to consider posting a > > short ‘Hello’. Other members would be interested to > > know something about you, your interest in Buddhism > > and how you found your way here! > > > > Wishing you progress in the dhamma > > > > Sarah and Jonothan Abbott > > (Moderators) 16240 From: ajahn_paul Date: Sat Oct 12, 2002 4:59am Subject: Re: Dukkha - sufferingPaul Hi Robert, Thanks for ur explaination. This is what im trying to say! ^_~ Paul > >___________ > Dear Paul, > Thanks for bringing up the three types of Dukkha. As you said in your > earlier post Dukkha is constant; even happy feeling is dukkha . I > appreciate your understanding of this. > The three types are > 1 > "Dukkha-dukkha, the vedana that is not sukkha or > upekha, .ie painful feeling > 2. Viparinama-dukkha, when pleasant feeling falls > away or changes, > 3. Sankhara-dukkha, any instant of arising and > falling away of > sankhara-dhamma, impermanence, the characteristic of > all sankkhara." > > > The first, dukkha-dukkha, includes all painful feeling. > In the human realm we experience this regularly as > either painful bodily feeling or as painful mental > feeling associated with dosa. Both are vedana and > nama. The Brahama gods experience no dukkha-dukkha > during their aeons as gods. When they are reborn in > lower realms painful feeling will arise again. In the > hell realms dukkha-dukkha is extreme. > > The second, viparinama dukkha can be understood by > considering the 6doors: when visible object comes > into contact with the eye-sense and seeing > consciousness arises. If the object is pleasant a > process will arise whereby pleasurable feeling arises. > When the visible object goes the sense pleasure to > the eye disappears. The same with all the other doors > of ear, nose tongue, body mind. Thus all beings are > forced to do all kinds of things, both good and bad , to try > to ensure a continual supply of pleasant objects for > these doors. The truly pathetic, miserable nature of > samasara can be gauged by how often we indulge in > activities (designed to bring us these pleasurable > objects) that as akusala kamma, can only give > unpleasant results in the future. Thus deep is ignorance. > > And as I understand it the third, sankhara-dukkha ?> the continual rising and ceasing of dhammas is the > deepest meaning of dukkha. All conditioned phenomena, > all dhammas are in such an extraordinary flux that to > say they exist is an extreme. This is the meaning of > dukkha ariya-sacca, the first noble truth, so hard to > comprehend. Anyone can reason and understand the > first two aspects of dukkha. We all know about pain, > dukkha dukkha, and we can all see to some extent > change occurring at the 6doors. But to penetrate the > aspect of sankhara-dukkha is only possible by the > correct, gradual development of satipatthana thereby > fulfilling the 37 bodhipakkhyadhamma and the > eightfactored path. > > The Buddha often said "Birth is suffering old age is > suffering, death is suffering?.In short the five > aggregates of clinging are dukkha." The deep meaning > of the last part of the phrase becomes clear if we > consider the Samyutta-Nikaya, Khandha-Vagga where it > says "Corporeality is a murderer, as are vedana, > sanna, sankhara and vinnana". Yes, we are so attached > to these khandas but this is only because we can't see > that at every moment they are breaking up. Thus what we take > for 'ourselves' are nothing other than Dukkha. > This dukkha-ariya-sacca is deep. > Robert 16241 From: vimmuti Date: Sat Oct 12, 2002 6:27am Subject: ruth denison...simply the best...:-) Ruth denison for you... give her a call. There is also a woman up in the Barre Mass area that appears to be the heir to her way of teaching. can't tell never met her... You do not seem to teach vipassana in the usual way—silent sitting and walking with an occasional Dharma talk. Can you say anything about your methods of teaching? As I mentioned earlier, U Ba Khin (my teacher) stressed awareness of bodily sensations. Each of the teachers in his or her own time develops their own emphasis within the awareness of bodily sensations. Some stress hearing, others sight, etc. Some teachers utilize only sitting. U Ba Khin taught and practiced the development of awareness only in strict sitting—with only very short informal periods of walking meditation. The longer I taught, the more I realized the difficulties that the meditators displayed in their meditation; they did not have the cultural and religious background for the ability to simply sit and pay attention to their own living process, body-mind sensations. In focusing so intently on the breath and body parts for long periods of time, people would try too hard. So I expand the selection of body sensations to keep the meditators engaged, and to foster softness and gentleness within themselves. I experiment with the application of mindfulness to body, breath and sensations in body positions other than just sitting. What evolves is meditation while standing, walking, running, jumping, lying down, rolling on the grass—meditation in the entire scope of body's mobility and expression, in yoga àsanas, in dance and laughing, in sound, touch, taste, sight or imitation motions such as crawling like a worm, etc. But let me stress that what I do is strictly within the prescribed bounds of Buddha's teachings—using the body and its sensations as a vehicle for mindfulness training, for developing awareness for clear comprehension of the present moment, of correct understanding of life's living and dying. By using such variety of sensations for developing awareness students learn how to apply their practice in situations other than simply sitting on a pillow. Often students do not know how to carry practice home with them after a retreat. But awareness developed in such a wide scope of meditation pattern, as I teach it, becomes gradually a natural state, and for that reason it is effortless and not easy to lose. The kinesthetic sense is corrected by means of movement, the focusing ability more easily strengthened than in strict sitting, and ease and relaxedness in body and mind is naturally invited. Often, however, students fail to recognize the fact that these psychological exercises or meditation in expression are actually part of the First Establishment of Mindfulness [in the Satipathàna text]. So, in truth, I am not teaching a different version of vipassana meditation. I feel it is rather the extended edition. And you offer your students more guidance than is usual, don't you? I believe the IMS course description refers to "sustained and on-going verbal teacher instruction throughout the day." I do feel that this description of verbal guidance is slightly exaggerated and misunderstood, for I do give or allow sufficient time for the meditators to practice by themselves, on their own, and without instruction. As we know, there are many obstructions and difficulties in our meditation practice. So my so-called "ongoing verbal instructions" are one way of alleviating or easing these difficulties the students suffer in their sitting meditation. So instead of insisting upon the traditional meditation pattern of sitting for a full hour with only a few moments' interruption, I include verbal support during quiet sitting practice as a natural reminder for returning from daydreaming or lost- thought-processes to mindful attention to the meditation object proper. I provide verbal support during the sitting meditation also for the purpose of perhaps quicker recognition of the student's alertness or sleepiness, or for realizing and knowing what is happening in one's emotional or thinking level. Clear comprehension—a mental ability to discern and know the present situation clearly and fully—is part of mindfulness and therefore very much enhanced through verbal assistance during the quiet practice as well as during any kind of practice in motion. In this way, as one student told me, "self-correction and self-observation can occur on the job." I also use verbal assistance as encouragement for perseverance in the vipassana practice, or as reminders for self-examining the quality of attitude and effort. Practicing in these various modalities within the vipassana meditation features an outstanding quality— "Never a dull moment,"— and a demand for total participation from the students and the teacher. This in turn cultivates a wonderful spirit of genuine communion. Most of all, I encourage people to go into their difficulties and to cope with the change that's taking place even as they are paying attention to it. Our life is nothing but change and it is to this change that I bow deeply. I bow to this change, I bow deeply to life itself. Saw only one schesule mention for anytjong happening out at her place. too bad if she has retired. Contact is: Dhamma Dena HC-1, Box 250 Joshua Tree, CA 92252 tel (619) 362-4815 a blurb about her style Ruth Denison studied in Burma in the early 1960's with the meditation master Sayagi U Ba Khin. She has been teaching since 1973 and is founder of Dhamma Dena, a desert retreat center in Joshua Tree CA, and The Center for Buddhism in the West in Germany. She is known for her energy and unorthodox way of teaching Vipassana meditation. She uses movement, music, rhythm, chanting, and sound as supportive meditation patterns for the practice. " and still crazy after all these years"...quietmind 16242 From: Date: Sat Oct 12, 2002 10:09am Subject: panna Dear group, I was going to launch an extensive investigation of pa~n~naa and its function in satipa.t.thaana including how satipa.t.thaana and the path of purification go together but I think the following short paragraph suffices for now. Visuddhimagga XXII par. 34: 'Foundation (pa.t.thaana)' is because of establishment (upa.t.thaana) by going down into, by descending upon, such and such objects. Mindfulness itself as foundation (establishment) is 'Foundations of Mindfulness'. It is of four kinds because it occus with respect to the body, feeling, consciousness, and mental objects (dhamma), taking them as foul, painful, impermanent, and not self, and because it accomplishes the function of abandoning perception of beauty, pleasure, permanence, and self. That is why 'Four Foundations of Mindfulness' is said. [in the 37 bodhipakkhiya dhamma] L: To me, this brings out that there is an analytical aspect of satipatthana. Larry 16243 From: Antony Woods Date: Sat Oct 12, 2002 5:51pm Subject: Cemetery Contemplations Dear Christine and all, Karen M. Andrews once wrote in: "Forty Meditations: Who Should Use Which?" "10 Asubhas (Objects of Impurity): The ten objects of impurity are various sorts of corpses. Meditating on corpses is useful is reducing lust. This practice should only be followed under the guidance of a master. Below is a list of the asubhas and who will find them useful. Swollen Corpse: Those who lust after beauty of form. Discolored Corpse: Those who lust after beauty of the skin and complexion. Festering Corpse: Those who lust after a sweet-smelling body, using perfumes. Fissured Corpse: Those who lust after the firmness and solidity of the body. Mangled Corpse: Those who lust after fulness of the flesh, such as the breasts. Dismembered Corpse: Those who lust after graceful movements of the body. Cut & Dismembered Corpse: Those who lust after perfection of the joints of the body. Blood-stained Corpse: Those who lust after beauty produced by adornments. Worm-infested Corpse: Those who are attached to the idea that the body is "me" or "mine." Skeleton: Those who lust after perfection of the teeth and nails." http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eightfold-l/message/2175 or ftp://ftp.buddhanet.net/medbud/40meds.zip 16244 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Oct 12, 2002 7:14pm Subject: Re: Cemetery Contemplations Hi Antony, and all, Thanks for your interesting post - it raises a few problems for me however. 1.(i) The scarcity of corpses to meditate upon. And, consequently, if one should find a reliable source, the very limited choice in their style and condition. As most corpses in my local area are victims of mayhem or motor accident and are fresh but damaged, it would be most suitable for those who suffer from some lusts and not others according to your list. (ii) The odd reputation one may gain from even enquiring about "corpse availability", and the danger of police action if one should actually find, and then be discovered meditating beside, a suitable corpse. One wonders if decaying corpses in charnel grounds are available anywhere in the world as a matter of course. (iv) The availability of photos - there was an internet site that had photos of corpses in various stages of decompostion, but I can't seem to locate it. And would photos be suitable - certainly they are much smaller, deoderised, present a view from only one perspective, and don't have the 'presence' of the actual remains of a human. (v) Does it have to be a human corpse? There is a wide variety of choices of animal, bird and insect corpses available, from road- kill, predator attack or natural causes. Would a frozen chicken from the supermarket do in a pinch? :) 2. (i) The strength of the words used in buddhism often seems 'over the top', and makes it more difficult upon reflection to apply to oneself. For example, "lust" to me means something like "inordinate craving and passionate sinful desire. Something that obsesses the mind." I clearly have a problem understanding what lust, hate, greed means in a buddhist sense as it applies to ordinary daily life. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Antony Woods" wrote: > Dear Christine and all, > > Karen M. Andrews once wrote in: > "Forty Meditations: Who Should Use Which?" > > "10 Asubhas (Objects of Impurity): > > The ten objects of impurity are various sorts of > corpses. Meditating on corpses is useful is reducing > lust. This practice should only be followed under the > guidance of a master. Below is a list of the asubhas and > who will find them useful. > > Swollen Corpse: Those who lust after beauty of form. > > Discolored Corpse: Those who lust after beauty of the > skin and complexion. > > Festering Corpse: Those who lust after a sweet-smelling > body, using perfumes. > > Fissured Corpse: Those who lust after the firmness and > solidity of the body. > > Mangled Corpse: Those who lust after fulness of the > flesh, such as the breasts. > > Dismembered Corpse: Those who lust after graceful > movements of the body. > > Cut & Dismembered Corpse: Those who lust after > perfection of the joints of the body. > > Blood-stained Corpse: Those who lust after beauty > produced by adornments. > > Worm-infested Corpse: Those who are attached to the idea > that the body is "me" or "mine." > > Skeleton: Those who lust after perfection of the teeth > and nails." > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eightfold-l/message/2175 > or > ftp://ftp.buddhanet.net/medbud/40meds.zip 16245 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sat Oct 12, 2002 9:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ekayana Dear Larry and all, > Would people like another week to consider the rather lengthy commentary > on ekaayano aya.m bhikkhave maggo? > > Also could we have a literal translation of these words? Does yano = > maggo? And what does aya.m mean? The word is ayano, not yano. ekaayano is a compound word made up of two words: eka (one) and ayano (way) and yes, ayano is a synonym of maggo (path) and should not be confused with 'yaana' (vehicle) as in Mahaayaana. The 'aya.m' (this) is a demonstrative pronoun modifying 'maggo', hence, 'this path'. A literal translation of the phrasing is: "one way, monks, is this path" but because of the compound state of 'ekaayano' there are a number of ways 'eka' can be syntactically related to 'ayano' that allows for some different and equally valid interpretations as given in Soma's commentary translation. This is a good example of the limitations of an English translation in that it can choose only one of these interpretations for a sutta translation. Best wishes, Jim 16246 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Oct 12, 2002 10:04pm Subject: Jim, the Parrot, the Bats, the Dog, the Frog and the Flea (WAY 10) Hi Jim, and all, I'm just catching up with The Way posts, and came across your story of the Parrot. This is so lovely! I would enjoy hearing more about Buddharakkhita the Meditating Parrot when you get around to translating the page. Rakkhita means 'guarded, protected and saved' - and so he was, by the novice Nuns. The most astonishing thing is that he stuck to his meditation subject :) while being carried off by a predator - and 'told' the Mahatheri about it. Perhaps he changed to a more auspicious subject than 'bone' after that? There are other stories in the suttas and commentaries about bats, a dog, a frog plus a flea. RobK told us The Bats Story: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/1138 "In the commentary to the Abhidhamma it gives the story of the 500 extremely wise arahant disciples of sariputta. Remember it was sariputta who received the outline to all the Abhidhamma from the Buddha and passed it on to his students. These men had all been in a long past life bats in a cave at the time of kassapa Buddha (see p21 of the atthasalini). They listened to two monks who used to recite Abhidhamma and although unable to understand the words knew that this is the law. After death they were all born in the deva world until the time of our Buddha when they became monks and arahants." ------------------------ The Dog story: "In the days of the Buddha there was a rich Brahmin called Todeyya living at Savatthi who was the king's adviser. He had fabulous wealth, but did not give anything to anyone, and told others, "If you give, you lose what you have, so do not give anything." He died greatly attached to his wealth and was reborn as a dog in his own house.One day the Buddha came to that house on his round for alms because he wanted to preach the true Dhamma to the young man Subha, the son of Todeyya. The dog that was formerly Todeyya came running out and barked at the Buddha. The Buddha spoke to the dog, "Hey Todeyya, you showed disrespect to me in your former birth, so now you have become a dog. Now you are barking at me and will be reborn in Avici hell for this bad action." On hearing this the dog thought, "This recluse Gotama knows me." Feeling very ill at ease he went to the kitchen and lay down to sleep in the ashes there. As he was the young Brahmin's pet, he used to sleep in his own comfortable bed. When the young man Subha saw him sleeping in the ashes, he asked his servants why, and was told what had happened.Young Subha thought to himself, "According to the Brahmin religion my father should have been reborn as a Brahma, but the recluse Gotama called the dog `Todeyya.' Thus he is saying that my father has been reborn as a dog. He just says whatever he likes." Thus he was deeply offended and came to the Buddha to accuse him of speaking a falsehood. He asked the Buddha what he had said to Todeyya the dog and the Buddha told him. Then to arouse faith in the young man the Buddha asked him, "Is there any wealth that your father didn't reveal before he died?" The young man replied that four hundred thousand was missing. The Buddha said to him, "Feed the dog well, and before he falls asleep ask him where the treasure is; he will reveal everything." So Subha thought, "If what the recluse Gotama says turns out to be true, I will find the treasure; if it is wrong then I can accuse him of a falsehood." So he fed the dog and asked him about the treasure. The dog led him to the buried treasure. On recovering his wealth, Subha thought to himself, "The recluse Gotama knows the secrets hidden to us by death. He is indeed the Buddha who knows all things." ------------------- And The Frog story + a Flea story (another ref. from RobK): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14673 "In the Vimanavatthu and Visuddhimagga a frog listened to the Buddha and knew only that 'this is good' He died and was imediately reborn as a deva, went to listen more to the Buddha and became a sotapanna. Or as Kom mentioned a monk died, was reborn as a flea and then the next day died and was born as a deva and became sotapanna. We humans think we are better than animals but this is perhaps our conceit." metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Jim Anderson" wrote: > Dear Group, <<>>for brevity > almost a full page has been omitted. The commentary explains here that > animals that depend on humans can also engage in the practice of > satipatthana as illustrated by a story about a young parrot trained by > a mahatheri to contemplate on 'bone'. <<>>for brevity 16247 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Oct 13, 2002 1:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Elements of Thinking/Contemplation in Vipassana Bhavana Howard Just a couple of points from your post below. You said: <> If you mean, deliberate attending but without specifying or limiting the object being attended to, I’m not sure I see how this can be. Is this not a contradiction in terms?. It seems to me that if there is to be an attending that is truly an attending to *any* presently arising phenomenon, (i.e., any phenomenon that presents itself, without being concerned as to what that phenomenon might be), this could only be an attending that is not deliberate or directed. You said: <> Distraction is of course a hindrance to any kind of deliberate attention/concentration but not, I think, to awareness the arising of which is conditioned by factors other than deliberate attention/concentration. Seen in this light, 'distraction' is in fact just another concept/presently arising phenomenon, much like any other. Jon --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - ... > > =========================== > The informality/formality of the occasion is, of course, not the > point. By formal meditation I mean the case of one restricting the > variety of > sensory inputs by a combination of external actions (e.g., seeking a > quiet > place or closing one's eyes) and the internal actions of restricting > one's > attention (concentrating on selected stimuli) and initially calming and > concentrating the mind by attending to a single phenomenon > (conventional, > such as the breath) for a period of time. By informal meditation I mean > attending to whatever arises without such restrictive procedures, during > > ordinary activities. > I see advantages and disadvantages to each. I think the main > disadvantage to formal meditation is that the hindrances of sloth and > torpor > more easily arise in that context, and the advantage is more ease in the > > development of strong concentration and microscopic attention. I think > the > disadvantage of informal meditation is that the hindrance of distraction > more > easily arises in that context and that concentration less easily > develops, > and the advantage is more ease in maintaining a bright mind (avoiding > sloth > and torpor) and having a wider range of phenomena open to one's perusal. > Jon, with regard to your previous post on the Kalakarama Sutta > and the > Bahiya Sutta, I will have to get back to you about them another time. > But if > you are interested, I would strongly recommend Bhikkhu ~Nanananda's book > The > Magic of the Mind. He expresses the matter far better than I could. You > can > find it on amazon.com by doing a search on "Nanananda". (The url is a > bit > ungainly to forward) > > With metta, > Howard 16248 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Oct 13, 2002 1:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation and Satipatthana Larry Larry 16249 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Oct 13, 2002 1:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] my meditation Nina. Thanks for the kind remarks, but more especially for the reminder about Recollection of the Dhamma. Yes, those moments of kusala are indeed a level of samatha, but so often there is no awareness of that or any other aspect of the presently arising phenomena, even though we are reflecting about dhamma at some level at the time. However, thanks to all the good folk on this list, there are a lot more conditions for some level of useful reflect than there would otherwise be, for which I am extremely grateful to all. Jon PS BTW, I very much appreciated your post to Sarah on the Therapeutic Literature thread, about patience as the highest asceticism. It was very helpful. --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Eric and Jon, > First of all, Eric, I sympathize with your troubles, and I hope it will > be > soon that things turn out well for you and Eath. > Jon, I printed out what you wrote to Eric, because many points are well > worth considering again and again: as > vipaka>. We know in theory, but, what about now? from the perspective of our own interests>, true > nature of realities is our best friend.> > What you wrote to Eric is to be applied in the situations of life, when > we > are in trying circumstances. And then what you wrote at the end: When > there > is pleasant feeling again we are less likely to see reality as it is. We > are > happy again, forget about the worldly conditions. > Yes, this is my meditation, I value samatha. This is Recollection of > Dhamma. > Samatha can be together with vipassana. I do not see samatha as > preliminary > work for many moments of sati. Samatha and satipatthana can come > naturally, > whatever comes let it come. > Nina. 16250 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Oct 13, 2002 1:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation and Satipatthana Larry ebtv.net wrote: > Hi Jon, > > You wrote: > > "There are many methods out there, all claiming to be correct ways of > 'practice'. The question one needs to ask in each case is the same > question you asked Rob M in a recent post in relation to sati, namely, > whether there is textual reference for it. I can't see any other way of > evaluating a 'practice', can you?" > > L: No, I think practice is different from samma-ditthi. Whatever works. You are perhaps thinking of right view (samma-ditthi) as a conceptual kind of thing. While there can of course be right view at a conceptual level, at its deepest level it is insight into the true nature of presently arising phenomena, which is also the goal of what most people think of as their ‘practice’. Those who think in terms of ‘practice’ as being a method or technique may be inclined to see the lesser levels of right view as being something short of the real thing, but that I think would be a mistake, since every moment of right view is accumulated and acts as a support for further moments of right view at deeper levels in the future. > There are many "skillful means" that are helpful to different people at > different times, in different circumstances. The "Kun Sujin Effortless > Listening Method" of satipatthana for example. As far as I know, there’s no such method!! (And even of there was one, I don’t think I’d be interested, since the development of true insight must in my view be based on a correct understanding of the actual teaching of the Buddha, as found in the Tipitaka and ancient texts, and there are no methods there!) Jon 16251 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Oct 13, 2002 3:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 12, Comm./Larry Hi Larry, I've just about caught up with THE WAY group - not sure if anyone answered this question ... I found this entry in Nyanatiloka's Dict.: "patisambhidá: 'analytical knowledge' or 'discrimination', is of 4 kinds: analytical knowledge of the true meaning (attha-patisambhidá), of the law (dhamma-patisambhidá), of language (nirutti-patisambhidá), of ready wit (patibhána-patisambhidá). As an alternative rendering of the fourth term (patibhána), Bhikkhu Ñánamoli proposes: perspicuity (in expression and knowledge). 1. The analytical knowledge of the meaning (attha-p.) is the knowledge with regard to the sense. 2. The analytical knowledge of the law (dhamma-p.) is the knowledge with regard to the law. 3. The analytical knowledge of language (nirutti-p.) is the knowledge of the language with regard to those former 2 things. 4. The analytical knowledge of ready-wit (patibhána-p.) is the knowledge about the (former 3) kinds of knowledge" (Vibh. XV). <<>> http://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic3_p.htm metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > "That bhikkhu, even prostrate in the tiger's mouth, suppressed his pain > and developing the wisdom of insight attained the four paths and fruits > of sanctitude together with analytical knowledge. Then he uttered this > ecstatic utterance:-" > > Hi all, > > What is "analytical knowledge" here? > > thanks, Larry 16252 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sun Oct 13, 2002 5:00am Subject: Meeting with Shakti I had the pleasure of meeting Deanna Shakti Johnson today. She has just arrived in Bangkok after hard travel in Tibet and Nepal, and today came to the foundation where we discussed Dhamma in English with Acharn Sujin. Other dsg members present were Num, Betty (who is finishing the editing and formatting of Survey of Paramattha Dhammas right now) Sukin and Ell . many topics including: Concept and reality. The difference betwen thinking about anatta and experiencing the actual characteristics of dhamas in the present moment. Why a sukkhavipassaka Anagami -who has no jhana - goes to the Brahma world upon death. This is because he has eliminated all sensual desire and he attains jhana at the moment of death , if not before. It must be easy for this being(who after attaining anagami has no aversion or sense desire or doubt) to attain jhana but by conditions he might not attain it till then. Also, Nina would have enjoyed, about the stages of vipassana and how at normal times the mind-door is obscured by the sense doors, but at the moments of vipassna nana the mind door becomes apparent. After the discussion we had lunch. Shakti sat near A. Sujin and they continued to discuus dhamma. We at the other end of the table couldn't hear, so the discussion shifted to Ivan(Australian) explaining, to a lovely Thai lady, the richness of the New Zealand accent by making sheep sounds. I (New Zealander) helped her grasp the basis of Australian linguistic forms by reference to the settling of the country by prison ships . Hoping to see more of Shakti this week. Robert 16253 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Oct 13, 2002 6:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 11, Comm The four satipatthanas are among the thirtyseven enlightenment factors, and these are mundane while they are being developed, but at the moment of enlightenment they are lokuttara, then they have reached fulfillment. I think we should consider: four satipatthanas in what sense? The sati sampajanna which is aware and understands. When it is mundane it is aware of the objects included in the four applications of mindfulness, and when it is lokuttara, nibbana is the object. In the Vis text you quote the supramundane sati sampajanna is called the four foundations for the reason given below: depending on the stage of enlightenment vipallasas are eradicated, and these vipallasas concern conditioned namas and rupas, included in the four foundations of mindfulness. But when we speak about the development of satipatthana now, of course it is mundane. Instead of being concerned whether sati is mundane or lokuttara, would it not be better to be intent on developing it just now? Body, feeling, citta and dhammas are always at hand. Nina op 12-10-2002 07:55 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > I think there must be a mundane satipatthana and a supramundane > satipatthana. The mundane satipatthana is what is described in the sutta > and is characterized as the "only way" [to the supramundane], I think. > Consider the following from Visuddhimagga XXII par. 40: > > In the moment of fruition the thirty three* excepting the Four Right > Endeavours are found. > > When these are found in a single consciousness in this way, it is the > one kind of mindfulness whose object is nibbana that is called 'the Four > Foundations of Mindfulness' because it accomplishes the function of > abandoning the [four] perceptions of beauty, etc., in the [four things] > beginning with the body. And also the one kind of energy is called 'Four > Right Endeavors' because it accomplishes the [four] functions beginning > with preventing the arising of the unarisen [unprofitable]. But there is > no decrease or or increase with the rest. > > L: this paragraph requires extensive explanation which I can't offer but > it seems clear that there is a lokuttara satipatthana. > > * 33 + 4 = 37 bodhipakkhiya dhamma > > Larry > 16254 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Oct 13, 2002 6:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] ekayana Hi Larry' ayana.m is path, aayati is to come. Aya.m: this, neutre. Of course there is a lot to say about this. A few more days? But to be preferred is smaller parts. Nina op 12-10-2002 00:28 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Would people like another week to consider the rather lengthy commentary > on ekaayano aya.m bhikkhave maggo? > > Also could we have a literal translation of these words? Does yano = > maggo? And what does aya.m mean? > 16255 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Oct 13, 2002 6:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 11, Comm Hi Larry, The four noble Truths are under dhammas. When we are developing satipatthana now we can think of nibbana as the end of dukkha. We have to wait until later on, we can look at this more closely when considering dhammas in dhammas The sotapanna has to go on and on developing satipatthana, it never is enough, until arahatship has been attained. Nina. op 12-10-2002 00:12 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > Would it be correct to say that nibbana is not an object of satipatthana > except as concept (as in 4 noble truths)? > > What kind of practice does a sotapanna engage in? 16256 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Oct 13, 2002 6:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] the only way Hi Larry, see below. op 11-10-2002 01:52 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Nina: "Sati is aware and panna knows the characteristics of all > realities included in the four satipatthanas, the gocara or domain of > panna." > L: What is involved in knowing the characteristics of realities? N: These characteristics appear one at a time through one of the six doors. They appear to sati which is aware, but no self who can direct which object sati is aware of. You spoke at another time about . This expression does not render the development so well. Listening, study, considering, pondering over, and also effort is involved, but this effort is not self. Patience is needed and all the other perfections. Enough work to do! Nina. 16257 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Oct 13, 2002 6:37am Subject: Perfections ch 6, Energy, no. 5 Perfections ch 6, Energy, no. 5 Had the Buddha not been courageous, he could not have penetrated the four noble Truths and become the Sammåsambuddha. The development of each kind of kusala and of paññå by investigating and considering the dhamma that appears now is based on viriya, energy and perseverance. We all should have courage and perseverance so that instead of energy for akusala there can be kusala viriya, energy for kusala, otherwise kusala cannot be developed. Effort or energy as it was applied in the unwholesome way, life after life, is useless. If we are able to understand the characteristic of viriya as it is applied in the wholesome way and if we shall further develop this kind of energy, we shall understand the words of the above quoted commentary about viriya: someone with viriya will be progressing, he is not a coward, he is not frightened, he has no fear and he does not flee. In daily life everybody has come into contact with undesirable objects: for some people these are extremely undesirable, whereas for others these are only slightly so. This may happen when one meets another person on account of whom one is disturbed or feels displeasure. If sati-sampajañña (sati and paññå) does not arise, one does not know that there is akusala dhamma at such a moment and hence there is no opportunity for the arising of kusala viriya, but instead there is akusala viriya. There are bound to be conditions for desire and attachment so that akusala continues to arise. However, if someone has listened to the Dhamma and he develops paññå through satipatthåna, sati-sampajañña can arise and be aware when he is irritated or displeased. We should consider more deeply the meaning of sati- sampajañña. When akusala dhamma arises, sati-sampajañña may be aware of it, and it may consider whether akusala dhamma should continue on. This depends on the paññå of the individual. At that moment there may be paññå which knows that it is not proper to be irritated in whatever respect, be it on account of the action or speech of someone else, or be it because we have noticed something wrong. When, for example, akusala citta with anger arises and sati-sampajaññå can be aware of it, we can see whether there is effort for giving up anger, and if one continues being angry it means that akusala viriya is still strong. When kusala viriya has been further developed and awareness can arise, there are conditions for the diminuition of displeasure and for the arising of mettå. Thus, instead of anger which is an impure dhamma there can immediately be a change to kusala dhamma, dhamma which is pure. 16258 From: Norbu Date: Sun Oct 13, 2002 7:12am Subject: [dsg] Re: Why did the Buddha meditate? perhaps Buddha's every moment is meditation itself. and when he sits crossed legged, closed eyes he might be contemplating something beyond the comprehension of our senses. norbu --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Christine - > > I think that what you propose in the following makes much sense, and I > expect that it may well be part of the answer. Generalizing, I think that the > Buddha meditated for one or more skillful reasons/purposes, but never out of > desire (tanha) or discontent. > > With metta, > Howard > > In a message dated 10/11/02 9:44:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > cforsyth@v... writes: > > > > > > > > Hi Howard, TG,and Stephen, > > > > What do you think the Buddha was doing? Maybe resting in > > mindfulness? Others slept, the busy world stopped as it does at > > night. It was crucial for our benefit that he teach as long as he > > did ... does becoming an Arahat mean that the body and sense organs > > become perfect? Or do they remain as they were and continue to > > degenerate? His physical body was that of an older man for most of > > the period that he taught. The body was eighty years old at his > > parinibbana, and had experienced a relatively austere life with few > > comforts by our standards. The Buddha gave out so much in his > > Teaching, mostly surrounded by needy people, he slept very little, > > and the body that supported him was surely as fragile as yours and > > mine. > > In the Jara Sutta (Old Age), Ananda may not have received the gold > > star for tact that day - > > "It's amazing, lord. It's astounding, how the Blessed One's > > complexion is no longer so clear & bright; his limbs are flabby & > > wrinkled; his back, bent forward; there's a discernible change in his > > faculties -- the faculty of the eye, the faculty of the ear, the > > faculty of the nose, the faculty of the tongue, the faculty of the > > body." > > The Buddha actually knew and experienced aging in this last rebirth, > > somehow that is comforting ... > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn48041.html#spit > > Perhaps, as he hardly slept at all, this resting and abiding in > > mindfulness was needed for conservation of energy and health of the > > aging rupa-kaya which supported him for the benefit all beings? > > > > metta, > > Christine > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., oreznoone@a... wrote: > > > > > > Hello Howard, all > > > > > > >Mmm, I get you. But if it is true that the Buddha had preferences > > for > > > >certain states over others, and not just to achieve some useful > > goal, then > > > >complete enlightenment is something less than I understood it to > > be. It > > > >suggests that a living arahant does not have complete equanimity. > > > I was thinking that since the Buddha didn't need to meditate, > > having reached > > > the end, he might have meditated not as a means, but somehow as an > > end in > > > itself. While 'pleasant abiding' didn't seem quite right (though > > the earlier > > > post which proposed "for aesthetic reasons" does strike a > > sympathetic chord > > > with me, and is perhaps on this track) perhaps it's as an > > expression of > > > equanimity or enlightenment. > > > Morality / sila can be seen as an expression, or the natural > > behavior, of > > > enlightenment: the precepts are how an arahat would naturally > > behave, having > > > no lobha and dosa. So it also seems that wisdom / panna is the > > natural > > > expression of the way an arahant would see things. So, also, the > > third limb > > > of the 8-fold path, meditation / samadhi, though this isn't so > > clear. > > > If that's correct then meditation should not be seen as > > instrumental, any > > > more than morality or wisdom; though they are incidentally a means, > > since > > > we're not enlightened. (He surmised.) > > > I thought there might simply be some clearer answer. (I don't know > > about the > > > reply: to experience nibbana.) > > > metta, stephen 16259 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sun Oct 13, 2002 8:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Why did the Buddha meditate? Hi Christine It is bc Buddha preach meditation. I don't know the yardstick of one definition of meditation but inside the "Dispeller of Delusion" there is mention of meditation of the body parts in the section of mindfulness. One got to praticise one preach or not who willl follow? What on his mind during mediation is everyone guess :)(couldn't be bother abt it). Whether there is a need to have a formal (I prefer the word instructional rather than formal) method, yes there is a need if one look at the section again. I wonder if any of the Abhidhammaist will disagree with what is written in that section :) kind rgds KC --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hello KC, (Howard, Stephen and all), > > {I've just been trying to catch up with those in The Way corner ... > > which means I'm reading the The Discourse on the Arousing of > Mindfulness. Hint to any others lagging behind - nine cemetery > contemplations and one reflection of the repulsiveness of the body > can quite take the edge off the evening. And, unless you are trying > > to lose weight, I'd advise it after a meal, not before.} > > Ken, Yours is an interesting perspective. I don't have any strong > opinion as to why the Buddha meditated, if that was what he was > doing. It was just a suggestion thrown on the table. I think the > normal routines of daily life over forty five years would have > shown > people he was human. (Eating, breathing, drinking, urinating, > defecating, coughing, vomiting, talking, bathing, sniffing, > spitting, > sleeping, aging and all the other things bodies do.) Ananda > certainly > told him he was getting wrinkled and flabby. Why wouldn't his body > and mind have needed sleep, if it needed everything else? He was > still a human being (wasn't he?) even though a Samma Sammbuddha? > > I think the original question was > "--- In dhammastudygroup@y..., oreznoone@a... wrote: > > Hello all, > > (If meditation is instrumental, for the attainment of an end) Why > > did the > > Buddha meditate throughout his life, including the very end? > > metta, stephen" > > And this question seems to have been raised not because the Buddha > didn't meditate, but because he did. > Glad you're still around KC, > metta, > Christine > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Kenneth Ong wrote: > > Hi Christine > > > > Buddha got to show that he is human and set an example for his > > disciple. Just imagine if pple thinks if he is superhuman then > many > > followers will follow him by his superhuman rather by his example > of > > human fragility and with this fragility there is hope for > enlightment > > with the right effort. > > > > We got to ask do he need sleep at all? My opinion there is no > need > > and there is no need to use mindfulness for conservation of > energy > at > > all. > > > > > > kind rgds > > KC > > > > --- oreznoone@a... wrote: > > > > Hello Christine, all > > > > > > >Perhaps, as he hardly slept at all, this resting and abiding > in > > > >mindfulness was needed for conservation of energy and health > of > > > the > > > >aging rupa-kaya which supported him for the benefit all > beings? > > > I'm not sure about the support partâ€"perhaps!â€"but abiding in > > > mindfulness, the > > > natural manifestation of enlightenment, is a good way of > putting > > > what I was > > > suggesting. Certainly an end in itself, as well as being > > > instrumental to that > > > very end. > > > Okay, I'm satisfied with that answer (until someone shoots it > down > > > ;-) > > > metta, stephen > 16260 From: Date: Sun Oct 13, 2002 4:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Elements of Thinking/Contemplation in Vipassana Bhavana Hi, Jon - In a message dated 10/13/02 4:10:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Howard > > Just a couple of points from your post below. > > You said: > < restrictive procedures, during ordinary activities.>> > > If you mean, deliberate attending but without specifying or limiting the > object being attended to, I’m not sure I see how this can be. Is this not > a contradiction in terms?. > > It seems to me that if there is to be an attending that is truly an > attending to *any* presently arising phenomenon, (i.e., any phenomenon > that presents itself, without being concerned as to what that phenomenon > might be), this could only be an attending that is not deliberate or > directed. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't think this is so. I do not find it a contradiction in terms. The difference is that of mental readiness and heightened attentiveness. It is quite difficult to maintain such a high level without restricting input, which, in fact, is why formal concentrative meditation is most common, but it is not impossible. It is a skill that can be developed to varying levels. It's practice amounts to "seeing" whatever arises clearly without "getting lost". It is attempted by many vipassana meditators, and it is the basis of the formal, but unrestricted, meditation technique of shikantaza (sp?), the "just sitting" technique of Ch'an/Zen. And of course, there are compromise approaches: For example, during ordinary activities such as eating, standing, taking a walk, and even falling asleep, one can primarily restrict attention to bodily position and sensation. Other things will be noticed as well, of course, but the body is used as an "anchor". ----------------------------------------------------- > > You said: > < distraction more easily arises in that context and that concentration less > easily develops.>> > > Distraction is of course a hindrance to any kind of deliberate > attention/concentration but not, I think, to awareness the arising of > which is conditioned by factors other than deliberate > attention/concentration. Seen in this light, 'distraction' is in fact > just another concept/presently arising phenomenon, much like any other. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Jon, with sufficient distraction one doesn't even notice the distraction! There *is* the need to *cultivate* attention. It is a technique to be learned by practice, not unlike learning to play an instrument. In this case, the instrument is the mind. (Don't worry, though, I'm aware that there is no musician, just the playing! ;-) ------------------------------------------------- > > Jon > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, Jon - > ... > > > >=========================== > > The informality/formality of the occasion is, of course, not the > >point. By formal meditation I mean the case of one restricting the > >variety of > >sensory inputs by a combination of external actions (e.g., seeking a > >quiet > >place or closing one's eyes) and the internal actions of restricting > >one's > >attention (concentrating on selected stimuli) and initially calming and > >concentrating the mind by attending to a single phenomenon > >(conventional, > >such as the breath) for a period of time. By informal meditation I mean > >attending to whatever arises without such restrictive procedures, during > > > >ordinary activities. > > I see advantages and disadvantages to each. I think the main > >disadvantage to formal meditation is that the hindrances of sloth and > >torpor > >more easily arise in that context, and the advantage is more ease in the > > > >development of strong concentration and microscopic attention. I think > >the > >disadvantage of informal meditation is that the hindrance of distraction > >more > >easily arises in that context and that concentration less easily > >develops, > >and the advantage is more ease in maintaining a bright mind (avoiding > >sloth > >and torpor) and having a wider range of phenomena open to one's perusal. > > Jon, with regard to your previous post on the Kalakarama Sutta > >and the > >Bahiya Sutta, I will have to get back to you about them another time. > >But if > >you are interested, I would strongly recommend Bhikkhu ~Nanananda's book > >The > >Magic of the Mind. He expresses the matter far better than I could. You > >can > >find it on amazon.com by doing a search on "Nanananda". (The url is a > >bit > >ungainly to forward) > > > >With metta, > >Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16261 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sun Oct 13, 2002 8:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Why did the Buddha meditate? Hi Christine Another point (gosh I sound nagging). I don't know why pple tends to equate meditation with concentration. In fact I feel that when Buddha preach meditation, it was for understanding and reflecting more of impermanence and anatta. Right concentration is after right mindfulness, so without the good foundations of the 1st seven, don't bother abt right concentration. From what I read, whenever Buddha talks abt right concentration it tends to be the jhanas he is refering to and we wouldn't get them without the 1st seven. :) kind rgds KC --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hello KC, (Howard, Stephen and all), > > {I've just been trying to catch up with those in The Way corner ... > > which means I'm reading the The Discourse on the Arousing of > Mindfulness. Hint to any others lagging behind - nine cemetery > contemplations and one reflection of the repulsiveness of the body > can quite take the edge off the evening. And, unless you are trying > > to lose weight, I'd advise it after a meal, not before.} > > Ken, Yours is an interesting perspective. I don't have any strong > opinion as to why the Buddha meditated, if that was what he was > doing. It was just a suggestion thrown on the table. I think the > normal routines of daily life over forty five years would have > shown > people he was human. (Eating, breathing, drinking, urinating, > defecating, coughing, vomiting, talking, bathing, sniffing, > spitting, > sleeping, aging and all the other things bodies do.) Ananda > certainly > told him he was getting wrinkled and flabby. Why wouldn't his body > and mind have needed sleep, if it needed everything else? He was > still a human being (wasn't he?) even though a Samma Sammbuddha? > > I think the original question was > "--- In dhammastudygroup@y..., oreznoone@a... wrote: > > Hello all, > > (If meditation is instrumental, for the attainment of an end) Why > > did the > > Buddha meditate throughout his life, including the very end? > > metta, stephen" > > And this question seems to have been raised not because the Buddha > didn't meditate, but because he did. > Glad you're still around KC, > metta, > Christine > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Kenneth Ong wrote: > > Hi Christine > > > > Buddha got to show that he is human and set an example for his > > disciple. Just imagine if pple thinks if he is superhuman then > many > > followers will follow him by his superhuman rather by his example > of > > human fragility and with this fragility there is hope for > enlightment > > with the right effort. > > > > We got to ask do he need sleep at all? My opinion there is no > need > > and there is no need to use mindfulness for conservation of > energy > at > > all. > > > > > > kind rgds > > KC > > > > --- oreznoone@a... wrote: > > > > Hello Christine, all > > > > > > >Perhaps, as he hardly slept at all, this resting and abiding > in > > > >mindfulness was needed for conservation of energy and health > of > > > the > > > >aging rupa-kaya which supported him for the benefit all > beings? > > > I'm not sure about the support partâ€"perhaps!â€"but abiding in > > > mindfulness, the > > > natural manifestation of enlightenment, is a good way of > putting > > > what I was > > > suggesting. Certainly an end in itself, as well as being > > > instrumental to that > > > very end. > > > Okay, I'm satisfied with that answer (until someone shoots it > down > > > ;-) > > > metta, stephen > 16262 From: Date: Sun Oct 13, 2002 4:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ekayana Dear Jim and Nina, Thanks for the pali lesson, very interesting. For what it's worth, I can think of several other ways of interpreting this sentence, not found in the commentary. It could mean each of the four foundations is the same in some way, or the one "going" of the eightfold path is satipatthana. I would be interested in how you summarize the various comments in the commentary on ekaayano aya.m bikkhave maggo. Larry 16263 From: Date: Sun Oct 13, 2002 4:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 12, Comm./Larry Thanks Christine, very interesting. Just to expand a bit, the way I read it attha is knowledge of results, dhamma is knowledge of conditions, nirutti is knowledge of language (how to explain the first two), and patibhana is knowledge of all kinds of knowledge (don't know what this could be). I wonder if there are philosophical terms for these four. Apparently they are lokuttara cittas. I couldn't find them in CMA. Anyone else know anything about this term, "pa.tisambhidaa"? Larry 16264 From: Date: Sun Oct 13, 2002 5:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation and Satipatthana Hi Jon, I guess my point was that reading dhamma, and commentaries on dhamma, thinking about dhamma, talking about dhamma, writing about dhamma, attending dhamma talks, and applying these ideas to one's own experience amounts to dhammanupassana but I doubt if you will find anything in the suttas or commentaries about email list groups or flying to Bangkok to listen to a lecture. In other words, the details and particulars of a practice needn't be spelled out in the commentaries in order to be legitimate. Larry 16265 From: Frank Kuan Date: Sun Oct 13, 2002 5:23pm Subject: sutta question, mn 43 page 392: (paraphrasing for brevity) "what does vitality stand in dependence on?" "vitality stands in dependence on heat." "what does heat stand in dependence on?" "heat stands in dependence on vitality." "sariputta, what do you mean by that man? that's a circular definition." "in that case friend, i shall give you a simile, for some wise men here pick up the meaning that way... just as when an oil lamp is burning, its radiance is seen in dependence on its flame and its flame is seen in dependence on its radiance; so too, vitality stands in dependence on heat and heat stands in dependence on vitality." ==================== any wise folks here understand the simile? I don't get it. -fk 16266 From: robmoult Date: Sun Oct 13, 2002 9:01pm Subject: Re: sutta question, mn 43 Hi Frank, Let me give it a shot: radiance depends on flame: this means that the radiance would not exist if the flame did not exist. No fire = no photons (photons = radiance). flame depends on radiance: this means that the radiance impinges on the eye sensitivity and conditions eye-consciousness. Multiple instances of eye-consciousness are grouped into a concept called "flame". Both heat and radiance (visible object) are paramattha dhammas while both vitality and flame are concepts. Does this make any sense in the context of this Sutta? Thanks, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Frank Kuan wrote: > page 392: (paraphrasing for brevity) > "what does vitality stand in dependence on?" > "vitality stands in dependence on heat." > "what does heat stand in dependence on?" > "heat stands in dependence on vitality." > "sariputta, what do you mean by that man? that's a > circular definition." > > "in that case friend, i shall give you a simile, for > some wise men here pick up the meaning that way... > just as when an oil lamp is burning, its radiance is > seen in dependence on its flame and its flame is seen > in dependence on its radiance; so too, vitality stands > in dependence on heat and heat stands in dependence on > vitality." > ==================== > any wise folks here understand the simile? I don't get > it. > > -fk > 16267 From: Chen Hsiongcai Date: Sun Oct 13, 2002 9:52pm Subject: invitation to join "Harvest" Buddhist E-Zine List Dear friends in Dhamma, "The Monthly Harvest" is a Buddhist-inspired free international E-Zine service hosted by Singapore's Panna Youth Centre. It serves as a fascinating and appealing way to reach out to the Buddhists living all around the world. We attempt to provide a monthly dosage of the Buddha-Dhamma through e-mails with Buddhist articles, inspirational stories, scripture quotations, prayer requests and the latest happenings & activities in Panna Youth Centre. Don't hesistate, get connected to us now and share this Good News with your friends today! To subscribe, simply send an e-mail to prajna-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Our wish is to spread the Buddha-Dhamma far & wide ! Yours in Noble Dhamma, Panna Youth Centre Cyber Ministry Harvest Electronic Magazine 2002 " See the Truth & you will see Me" Buddha Visit http://www.prajna.cjb.net 16268 From: rahula_80 Date: Mon Oct 14, 2002 0:03am Subject: Vimuttattaa Hi, I am seeking experts' help to solve this problem. I posted this in my discussion group (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PaliTrans/) and Robert Kirkpatrick suggest that I post it here. My comments or questions will be in //........// >> How do you translate this: Vimuttattaa .thita.m. .Thitattaa santusita.m. Santusitattaa na paritassati. ........ [SN XXII.54 / SN iii.54 / CDB i 891 (Bija Sutta)] << Bhikkhu Thanissaro's translation: "[I]t is steady. Owing to its steadiness, it is contented. Owing to its contentment, it is not agitated. Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation: "[I]t is steady; by being steady it is content; by being content he is not agitated" Shakya Aryanatta's translations: Translation 1 "Stable is the deliverance of the soul; stable, the soul is content; the soul content, it is not agitated." Translation 2 "Fixed in emancipation in the Soul, quelled in fixation in the Soul, quelled within the Soul one is no longer stirred" // Is any of his translation correct? If no, why? // According to Shakya Aryanatta, Bhikkhu Bodhi mistranslate this passage, saying _it_ and _he_ are the pronouns Bhikkhu Bodhi uses to translate the suffix -attaa Lance Cousins, wrote in Buddha-L: "So the first sentence corresponds to Sanskrit: vimuktatvaat sthitam and so on. There is no atta/aatman here at all; it is the ablative singular of the suffix tta = tva. Bhikkhu Bodhi is indeed vindicated. " // Now, I am just learning Pali. So please forgive my mistake. According to Pali Primer by Lily de Silva, Lesson 9 The suffix -tvaa isadded to the root of the verb or verbal base with or sometimes without the connecting vowel -i- to form the gerung, absolutive or the indeclinable particle. So, shouldn't it be rendered, vimucitvaa, never vimuttattaa. (muc + i + tvaa)? Also, vimutta + tta = vimuttatta, NOT vimuttattaa. Right? If not, can you explain how vimuttattaa is derived? // // I found this while surfing the Net. Is it true? // " Absolutives in Pali are generally formed with the suffixes -tvaa and -ya. But there are traces of absolutives such as -taa, ttaa and - tu. The appearance of suffix -ttaa in Pali is probably due to the recensionists who, when converting earlier material to Pali, were confused on how to do it. For an example, we note the difference between chettaa and chetvaa, the former being probably the older Prakrit construction. It is quite out of place to suggest that the suffix of vimuttatta is -ttaa." ----------- According to PTS Dictionary p.632 Vimuttatta - having an emancipated self S III.46, 55, 58; A IV.428 // So, is the PTS Dictionary wrong?// ----------- I found this comment while surfing the internet.it was posted by Lee Dillion. "Stable is the deliverance of the soul; stable, the soul is content; the soul content, it is not agitated." I don't think this is a feasible rendering. 1) If vimuttattaa meant 'deliverance of the soul' (which it doesn't, but let's pretend for now), then it would be a tappurisa compound. Since such compounds take their gender from their last component, it would be, like attaa itself, masculine. The qualifying .thita would then need to be masculine, .thito. But in the quoted passage it takes a neuter inflection, .thita.m. 2) Being neuter, .thita.m cannot be qualifying vimuttattaa. It must in fact be qualifying vi~n~naa.na (consciousness), since there is no other neuter noun in the passage. The same goes for santusita.m and aparitassa.m, which are also neuter. Bodhi's rendering "It [i.e. consciousness] is liberated" is therefore correct. 3) In a 2-part tappurisa compound the item in the oblique case comes first. In the phrase 'deliverance of the soul' it is 'soul' that is oblique (genitive) and which must therefore precede the non- oblique 'deliverance'. The word would therefore be attavimutti, not vimuttattaa. Vimuttattaa cannot therefore mean 'deliverance of the soul'. 4) But even if it did, in which case is it inflected? It cannot be nominative as in your translation, since we have already established that vi~n~naa.na is the subject of the sentence. The only other -aa inflection available is the ablative singular. But in this passage no possible sense can be obtained by rendering "deliverance of the soul" as an ablative. 5) It would, however, make sense if we took vimuttattaa to be a bhaava-taddhita, that is, a gerundial derivative expressing state, condition or nature, formed with the suffix -tta and inflected in the ablative, expressing cause. Which is exactly what Bodhi does. Interestingly, the earlier translator of the Sa.myutta Nikaaya, F.L. Woodward, though sharing the atmavaadin views of Mrs. Rhys Davids, apparently did not regard this passage as one that could be doctored to support his views. His rendering is substantially the same as Bodhi's: "Without that platform, consciousness has no growth, it generates no action and is freed: by freedom it is steady: by its steadiness it is happy: owing to happiness it is not troubled." (Woodward, Kindred Sayings III 46) In one respect it actually seems better than Bodhi's: he doesn't make the awkward switch from "it" to "he". Shakya Aryanatta replied: 1) It doesn't says 'deliverance of the soul' rather deliverance (of the citta) into the soul. Vimuttattaa being a masculine nominative has nothing to do with the fact that .thita.m is accusative. Vimuttattaa is in the nominative. It's not refering to vinnana. 2) Thita.m is not qualifying vimuttattaa. Even Bhikkhu Bodhi translate vimuttattaa nominatively 3) Warder's section on "Abstract Nound" Page 252, is in error. 4) Iy is not established that vinnana is the subject of the sentence. It says when one's vinnana is unestablished that he is....he is.... 5) "gerundial derivative expressing state" Try to prove that. ------------- Also: 1. "Tadappatitthitam viññaa.nam avi- ruulham anabhisaªkhaccavimuttam. Vimuttattaa thitam. " Vimuttattaa is not modifying vinnana, its in a separate sentence. 2. The only thing called liberated in Upaya Sutta (also Bija Sutta) is vimuttattaa(liberated in the soul) 3. Sandhi rules is that vimutta + attaa (Nom.) = Vimuttattaa, dropping the last a on vimutta. // I check " An Elementary Pali Course" by Ven. Narada Thera. it seems that SA is correct. See Lesson XXIV, Rules of Sandhi. "........When two vowels come together, the preceding vowel is often dropped..." // // Is his opinion correct?// --------- // I have included below the passage in Pali. It could be found in Samyutta Nikaya, Khandavaggapaali, Chapter 1 (Khandasamyuttam) Section 45 & 46 http://www.tipitaka.org/tipitaka/booklistframe2.html "… viññaa.nadhaatuyaa ce, bhikkhave, bhikkhuno raago pahiino hoti. Raagassa pahaanaa vocchijjataaramma.nam patitthaa viññaa.nassa na hoti. Tadappatitthitam viñña.nam aviruulham anabhisa"nkhaccavimuttam. Vimuttattaa thitam. Thitattaa santusitam. Santusitattaa na paritassati. Aparitassam paccattaññeva parinibbaayati................." Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation says: "When that consciousness is unestablished, not coming to growth, nongenerative, it is liberated. By being liberated, it is steady; by being steady, it is content; by being content, he is not agitated. Being unagitated, he personally attains Nibbaana." Bhikkhu Thanissaro translation says: "If a monk abandons passion for the property of consciousness, then owing to the abandonment of passion, the support is cut off, and there is no base for consciousness. Consciousness, thus unestablished, not proliferating, not performing any function, is released. Owing to its release, it is steady. Owing to its steadiness, it is contented. Owing to its contentment, it is not agitated. Not agitated, he (the monk) is totally unbound right within." Thanks, Rahula 16269 From: Sarah Date: Mon Oct 14, 2002 2:37am Subject: A pleasant time with Bhikkhu Bodhi Dear All, Today is mid-Autumn Festival in Hong Kong and a holiday. We met Bhikkhu Bodhi by arrangement at mid-day and took him to meet Dr Ma and try yet another treatment for his serious headache condition. Both B.Bodhi and Dr Ma are very cheery and friendly by nature, so it turned out to be a pleasant and hopefully useful session. The diagnosis was quite different, I think, from any he has been given before. After the treatment we took B.Bodhi back to the apartment where he is staying with Brother Anthony and the Chinese Master who are also from Bodhi Monastery in the States. The Chinese Master was resting, but we spent well over an hour chatting and sipping tea with B.Bodhi and Br.Anthony. We heard about how B.Bodhi had been invited to visit Bodhi monastery, what a pleasant and suitable environment it was (and were shown pictures to prove it) and how content he was to be settling there. On this trip he will be winding up various affairs at the BPS in Kandy but will continue to play an advisory and semi-official role. The new President of BPS will be a Danish monk with useful administative skills. I believe he is already settled at the Forest Hermitage. The Chinese Master has a very keen interest and knowledge in the Chinese Tipitaka texts, including the Chinese Abhidhamma and commentaries and there is a lot of encuragement and support at the temple for B.Bodhi’s work with regard to Pali translation and his teaching of the dhamma based on the Pali canon. We had long discussions about the value and necessity of study of abhidhamma and commentaries and B.Bodhi seemed pleased and interested to hear about how much many of us on DSG value his translations of these as well as of the Suttas themselves. There was some brief discussion too about abhidhamma not being something separate from our life now and we all seemed in agreement on this. A couple of people had asked me to check about the complete Anguttara Nikaya translation and B.Bodhi said that he’s now completed Vol I. He said it takes about 5 years for each of the Nikayas, though AN is not as difficult as SN was. Many of his translations have been slowed down by the headache condition. Whilst working on the Brahmajala commentary, for example, he had had to stop for 9 months at one time for this reason. We also passed on to him a letter from a member in appreciation of all his writings and also a few other recent posts from the list which we thought might be of interest. If there’s anything anyone would particularly like to have drawn to his attention, pls let me know before Wednesday when one of us will take him to Dr Ma again. We also discussed the subject of different translations and internet access. As far as BPS is concerned, revenue from the sale of the full-length books is obviously essential to the BPS’s ability to keep publishing more works. We also discussed a little about pali texts and manuscripts, just touching on the question of the Pali manuscript Soma Thera would have used. He felt sure Soma Thera would have translated everything from this translation (Sinhalese Pali MN commentary??). We also mentioned that Nina and others appreciated being able to use his commentary translations and this is no problem at all, as long as the usual acknowledgements are made. I’m sure he’s very glad to know that they are useful in this way. ***** We’ve only ever met B.Bodhi a few times, but we always find it very easy to discuss with him whatever dhamma issues we wish, and we’re always made to feel at ease. We appreciate his kindness, modesty and lack of pride (factors which I mentioned the other day when discussing another teacher). We really hope we can help a little with his health problems as a means of repaying a small part of the great benefit we have receive from his translation work. Sarah ===== 16270 From: Frank Kuan Date: Mon Oct 14, 2002 6:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sutta question, mn 43 Hi Rob, If that makes sense to you, more power to you. As for me, I won't be joining the wise men club anytime soon. :-) Maybe they'll let me in the wise guy or wise ass club. -fk --- robmoult wrote: > Hi Frank, > > Let me give it a shot: > > radiance depends on flame: this means that the > radiance would not > exist if the flame did not exist. No fire = no > photons (photons = > radiance). > > flame depends on radiance: this means that the > radiance impinges on > the eye sensitivity and conditions > eye-consciousness. Multiple > instances of eye-consciousness are grouped into a > concept > called "flame". > > Both heat and radiance (visible object) are > paramattha dhammas while > both vitality and flame are concepts. > > Does this make any sense in the context of this > Sutta? > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Frank Kuan > wrote: > > page 392: (paraphrasing for brevity) > > "what does vitality stand in dependence on?" > > "vitality stands in dependence on heat." > > "what does heat stand in dependence on?" > > "heat stands in dependence on vitality." > > "sariputta, what do you mean by that man? that's a > > circular definition." > > > > "in that case friend, i shall give you a simile, > for > > some wise men here pick up the meaning that way... > > just as when an oil lamp is burning, its radiance > is > > seen in dependence on its flame and its flame is > seen > > in dependence on its radiance; so too, vitality > stands > > in dependence on heat and heat stands in > dependence on > > vitality." > > ==================== > > any wise folks here understand the simile? I don't > get > > it. > > > > -fk > > > > 16271 From: Frank Kuan Date: Mon Oct 14, 2002 6:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] A pleasant time with Bhikkhu Bodhi Bhikkhu Bodhi is my hero. His english translations of the pali suttas were the pivotal component of my sorting through the huge list of "buddhist" lineages and figuring out what's what and what is essential. Palms together, with great love and appreciation -fk --- Sarah wrote: > Dear All, > > Today is mid-Autumn Festival in Hong Kong and a > holiday. We met Bhikkhu > Bodhi by arrangement at mid-day and took him to meet > Dr Ma and try yet > another treatment for his serious headache > condition. Both B.Bodhi and Dr > Ma are very cheery and friendly by nature, so it > turned out to be a > pleasant and hopefully useful session. The diagnosis > was quite different, > I think, from any he has been given before. > > After the treatment we took B.Bodhi back to the > apartment where he is > staying with Brother Anthony and the Chinese Master > who are also from > Bodhi Monastery in the States. The Chinese Master > was resting, but we > spent well over an hour chatting and sipping tea > with B.Bodhi and > Br.Anthony. > > We heard about how B.Bodhi had been invited to visit > Bodhi monastery, what > a pleasant and suitable environment it was (and were > shown pictures to > prove it) and how content he was to be settling > there. On this trip he > will be winding up various affairs at the BPS in > Kandy but will continue > to play an advisory and semi-official role. The new > President of BPS will > be a Danish monk with useful administative skills. I > believe he is already > settled at the Forest Hermitage. > > The Chinese Master has a very keen interest and > knowledge in the Chinese > Tipitaka texts, including the Chinese Abhidhamma and > commentaries and > there is a lot of encuragement and support at the > temple for B.Bodhi’s > work with regard to Pali translation and his > teaching of the dhamma based > on the Pali canon. We had long discussions about the > value and necessity > of study of abhidhamma and commentaries and B.Bodhi > seemed pleased and > interested to hear about how much many of us on DSG > value his translations > of these as well as of the Suttas themselves. There > was some brief > discussion too about abhidhamma not being something > separate from our life > now and we all seemed in agreement on this. > > A couple of people had asked me to check about the > complete Anguttara > Nikaya translation and B.Bodhi said that he’s now > completed Vol I. He said > it takes about 5 years for each of the Nikayas, > though AN is not as > difficult as SN was. Many of his translations have > been slowed down by the > headache condition. Whilst working on the Brahmajala > commentary, for > example, he had had to stop for 9 months at one time > for this reason. > > We also passed on to him a letter from a member in > appreciation of all his > writings and also a few other recent posts from the > list which we thought > might be of interest. If there’s anything anyone > would particularly like > to have drawn to his attention, pls let me know > before Wednesday when one > of us will take him to Dr Ma again. > > We also discussed the subject of different > translations and internet > access. As far as BPS is concerned, revenue from the > sale of the > full-length books is obviously essential to the > BPS’s ability to keep > publishing more works. We also discussed a little > about pali texts and > manuscripts, just touching on the question of the > Pali manuscript Soma > Thera would have used. He felt sure Soma Thera would > have translated > everything from this translation (Sinhalese Pali MN > commentary??). We also > mentioned that Nina and others appreciated being > able to use his > commentary translations and this is no problem at > all, as long as the > usual acknowledgements are made. I’m sure he’s very > glad to know that they > are useful in this way. > ***** > We’ve only ever met B.Bodhi a few times, but we > always find it very easy > to discuss with him whatever dhamma issues we wish, > and we’re always made > to feel at ease. We appreciate his kindness, modesty > and lack of pride > (factors which I mentioned the other day when > discussing another teacher). > > We really hope we can help a little with his health > problems as a means of > repaying a small part of the great benefit we have > receive from his > translation work. > > Sarah > ===== > > > 16272 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 14, 2002 10:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] panna Dear Larry, this text is word by word very deep and not easy. The analytical aspect of satipatthana? In what sense? The characteristics of nama and rupa which appear are being investigated by panna, so that the true nature of them can be gradually penetrated. Do you call that analysis? Nina. P.S. Ayam belongs to maggo as Jim said and it is not neutre, sorry, my mistake. op 12-10-2002 19:09 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: I was going to launch an extensive investigation of pa~n~naa and its > function in satipa.t.thaana including how satipa.t.thaana and the path > of purification go together but I think the following short paragraph > suffices for now. > > Visuddhimagga XXII par. 34: > > 'Foundation (pa.t.thaana)' is because of establishment (upa.t.thaana) by > going down into, by descending upon, such and such objects. Mindfulness > itself as foundation (establishment) is 'Foundations of Mindfulness'. It > is of four kinds because it occurs with respect to the body, feeling, > consciousness, and mental objects (dhamma), taking them as foul, > painful, impermanent, and not self, and because it accomplishes the > function of abandoning perception of beauty, pleasure, permanence, and > self. That is why 'Four Foundations of Mindfulness' is said. [in the 37 > bodhipakkhiya dhamma] > > L: To me, this brings out that there is an analytical aspect of > satipatthana. 16273 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Oct 14, 2002 1:58pm Subject: Pali frustration was [dsg] Re: sutta question, mn 43 Dear All, I am encountering difficulty in using the Pali-English Dictionary and the Pali alphabet. I have the Pali Alphabet by Ven. Narada printed off. But, as not only the initial letter of the word is sorted by this method,but also the internal letters in each word, I often give up before finding the meaning of a word. For example, in trying to understand the meaning of 'resort', I was looking up the meaning of the Pali word manopatisaranam. . I found the word Mano on p. 520 of the PED. but have either overlooked the complete word, or am looking in the wrong place. I then tried Buddhadatta's dictionary and found 'pa.tisara.na nt. shelter; help; protection", but, again, have no idea if this is related in any way. Has anyone written a dictionary for Pali words that follows the English alphabet? Nyanatiloka's, which does follow the English alphabet, has a very brief entry for 'mano'. metta, Christine 16274 From: robmoult Date: Mon Oct 14, 2002 3:10pm Subject: [dsg] Re: sutta question, mn 43 Hi Frank, Like Christine, I am also frustrated (but not for the same reason). I had a long detailed analysis typed out but the computer ate it and I don't have time to retype it all (remind you of Fermat's theorem?). In brief, I am not a "wise man", but I just happened to read a book written by a "wise woman" (Nina), "The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena". After reviewing Bhikkhu Bodhi's (a wise man) commentary, let me propose a paraphrased version of the troubling section of the sutta: What sustains the life-faculty rupa? It is kamma-born heat that sustains the life-faculty rupa. What sustains kamma-born heat? It is the life-faculty rupa that sustains kamma-born heat. Nina's book explains that the life faculty rupa, jivitindriya, is produced by kamma. Where does kamma come from? Kamma comes from the fact that we are living (as non-arahants). Frank, in case you are confused, this is not the same explanation as given below. I have changed my interpretation based on Bhikkhu Bodhi's commentary. An indication of how "wise" I am :-) Thanks, Rob :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Frank Kuan wrote: > Hi Rob, > If that makes sense to you, more power to you. As > for me, I won't be joining the wise men club anytime > soon. :-) Maybe they'll let me in the wise guy or wise > ass club. > > -fk > > --- robmoult wrote: > > Hi Frank, > > > > Let me give it a shot: > > > > radiance depends on flame: this means that the > > radiance would not > > exist if the flame did not exist. No fire = no > > photons (photons = > > radiance). > > > > flame depends on radiance: this means that the > > radiance impinges on > > the eye sensitivity and conditions > > eye-consciousness. Multiple > > instances of eye-consciousness are grouped into a > > concept > > called "flame". > > > > Both heat and radiance (visible object) are > > paramattha dhammas while > > both vitality and flame are concepts. > > > > Does this make any sense in the context of this > > Sutta? > > > > Thanks, > > Rob M :-) > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Frank Kuan > > wrote: > > > page 392: (paraphrasing for brevity) > > > "what does vitality stand in dependence on?" > > > "vitality stands in dependence on heat." > > > "what does heat stand in dependence on?" > > > "heat stands in dependence on vitality." > > > "sariputta, what do you mean by that man? that's a > > > circular definition." > > > > > > "in that case friend, i shall give you a simile, > > for > > > some wise men here pick up the meaning that way... > > > just as when an oil lamp is burning, its radiance > > is > > > seen in dependence on its flame and its flame is > > seen > > > in dependence on its radiance; so too, vitality > > stands > > > in dependence on heat and heat stands in > > dependence on > > > vitality." > > > ==================== > > > any wise folks here understand the simile? I don't > > get > > > it. > > > > > > -fk > > > > > > 16275 From: Date: Mon Oct 14, 2002 3:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] panna L: "Visuddhimagga XXII par. 34: 'Foundation (pa.t.thaana)' is because of establishment (upa.t.thaana) by going down into, by descending upon, such and such objects. Mindfulness itself as foundation (establishment) is 'Foundations of Mindfulness'. It is of four kinds because it occurs with respect to the body, feeling, consciousness, and mental objects (dhamma), taking them as foul, painful, impermanent, and not self, and because it accomplishes the function of abandoning perception of beauty, pleasure, permanence, and self. That is why 'Four Foundations of Mindfulness' is said. [in the 37 bodhipakkhiya dhamma]" Hi Nina, I'm calling satipatthana analytical because of "taking them as foul, painful, impermanent, and not self". Maybe a better term would be judgemental or evaluative since, strictly speaking analysis is taking things apart and figuring out how they work. I'm contrasting this with an alternative way of understanding satipatthana which can be seen in the following words of B. Nananda in "Concept and Reality": "Then Bahiya, thus must you train yourself: 'In the seen there will be just the seen; in the heard, just the heard, in the sensed, just the sensed*; in the cognized, just the cognized. That is how, O Bahiya, you must train yourself. Now, when, Bahiya, in the seen there will be to you just the seen, in the heard ...... just the cognized, then Bahiya, you will have no 'thereby'; when you have no 'thereby', then Bahiya, you will have no 'therein'; as you, Bahiya, will have no 'therein' it follows that you will have no 'here' or 'beyond', or 'midway-between'. That is the end of all ill." M.A.P.C. 10 The first part of the exhortation presents succinctly the sum-total of sense-restraint, while the latter part interprets the philosophy behind it. This sense-restraint consists in 'stopping-short' at the level of sense-data without being led astray by them. He who succeeds in this has truly comprehended the nature of sense'data so that he no longer thinks 'in terms of' them ('na tena' = no 'therein'). He has thus transcended the superstitions of the gramatical structure as also the verbal dichotomy (nev'idha, na hura.m, na ubhayamantare = neither here nor beyond nor midway between'). In short, he has attained the Goal. As for Bahiya, he did attain the Goal, and that almost instantaneously, since he had developed his spititual faculties to such an extent in his own religious system, that - we are told in the sutta - he even entertained the illusion of being an arahant before he came to the Buddha. * 'Muta' stands for sense impressions received by smelling, tasting, and touching. L: I would say that the latter follows the former in that concepts of impermanence, unsatisfactoryness, and not self are abandoned in simple focus on nama or rupa without implications. What started this line of thought is my wondering whether the experience of a breath is satipatthana, is satipatthana with panna, and if with panna, what is the panna. My conclusion is that running down the street experiencing breathing isn't satipatthana unless there is a context of relinquishment; the same goes for sitting on a meditation cushion. Furthermore, bringing a satipatthana context to experience can (must?) be accomplished with reasoning. Any thoughts? Larry 16276 From: robmoult Date: Mon Oct 14, 2002 3:27pm Subject: [dsg] Re: sutta question, mn 43 Hi All (especially Nina), This discussion has started me wondering about something. The rupa jivitindriya is a subtle rupa; it does not impinge directly on the senses. It is also a "produced rupa" that can be known directly and therefore has a characteristic that can be directly known (suitable for the practice of insight). It would appear from this Sutta, that it is kamma-born heat that might be the characteristic of the rupa jivitindriya that can be directly known. So how does this work? Our body-sense detects that our body is warm and therefore we know that we are physically alive? Is there a concept involved (many instances of body-sense detecting of heat merged into a whole)? What about the other subtle rupas which are "produced"; masculinity, femininity and heart-base? What are the characterisitics that allow these rupas to be known directly? In the case of masculine / feminine, might it be a visible object? If this is the case, it must be a concept, right? For heart base, I suspect it might be the existence of nama (except for the sense consciousness cittas, all cittas with their cetasikas depend on the heart base). Comments? A year or so ago, I attended a day long talk on the Heart Sutta given by an Englishman who had been a Theravada monk for many years and then disrobed. During his talk, he said that he saw little value in the Abhidhamma "because it was not based on reality". He came to this sweeping generalization of a conclusion, throwing the baby out with the bathwater, because he had asked his teacher how he could directly experience bhavanga in a meditation experience and his teacher had no answer. I have been mulling over this issue ever since. The predominant cetasika during bhavanga is jivitindriya. My comments above discuss how we might be able to detect the rupa jivitindriya, but how can we detect the cetasika jivitindriya? Any ideas? Thanks, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Frank, > > Like Christine, I am also frustrated (but not for the same reason). > I had a long detailed analysis typed out but the computer ate it and > I don't have time to retype it all (remind you of Fermat's theorem?). > > In brief, I am not a "wise man", but I just happened to read a book > written by a "wise woman" (Nina), "The Buddhist Teaching on Physical > Phenomena". > > After reviewing Bhikkhu Bodhi's (a wise man) commentary, let me > propose a paraphrased version of the troubling section of the sutta: > > What sustains the life-faculty rupa? > It is kamma-born heat that sustains the life-faculty rupa. > What sustains kamma-born heat? > It is the life-faculty rupa that sustains kamma-born heat. > > Nina's book explains that the life faculty rupa, jivitindriya, is > produced by kamma. Where does kamma come from? Kamma comes from the > fact that we are living (as non-arahants). > > Frank, in case you are confused, this is not the same explanation as > given below. I have changed my interpretation based on Bhikkhu > Bodhi's commentary. An indication of how "wise" I am :-) > > Thanks, > Rob :-) > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Frank Kuan wrote: > > Hi Rob, > > If that makes sense to you, more power to you. As > > for me, I won't be joining the wise men club anytime > > soon. :-) Maybe they'll let me in the wise guy or wise > > ass club. > > > > -fk > > > > --- robmoult wrote: > > > Hi Frank, > > > > > > Let me give it a shot: > > > > > > radiance depends on flame: this means that the > > > radiance would not > > > exist if the flame did not exist. No fire = no > > > photons (photons = > > > radiance). > > > > > > flame depends on radiance: this means that the > > > radiance impinges on > > > the eye sensitivity and conditions > > > eye-consciousness. Multiple > > > instances of eye-consciousness are grouped into a > > > concept > > > called "flame". > > > > > > Both heat and radiance (visible object) are > > > paramattha dhammas while > > > both vitality and flame are concepts. > > > > > > Does this make any sense in the context of this > > > Sutta? > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Rob M :-) > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Frank Kuan > > > wrote: > > > > page 392: (paraphrasing for brevity) > > > > "what does vitality stand in dependence on?" > > > > "vitality stands in dependence on heat." > > > > "what does heat stand in dependence on?" > > > > "heat stands in dependence on vitality." > > > > "sariputta, what do you mean by that man? that's a > > > > circular definition." > > > > > > > > "in that case friend, i shall give you a simile, > > > for > > > > some wise men here pick up the meaning that way... > > > > just as when an oil lamp is burning, its radiance > > > is > > > > seen in dependence on its flame and its flame is > > > seen > > > > in dependence on its radiance; so too, vitality > > > stands > > > > in dependence on heat and heat stands in > > > dependence on > > > > vitality." > > > > ==================== > > > > any wise folks here understand the simile? I don't > > > get > > > > it. > > > > > > > > -fk 16277 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Mon Oct 14, 2002 7:33pm Subject: Re: Vimuttattaa --- Dear Rahula, I'll leave aside the discuusion of this paragraph and instead discuss the importance of anatta. It is not uncommon to come across translators who seize on a few sentences to support some unusual interpretation they have. That is why we should study widely and try to understand the meaning of the texts as a whole. On anatta this is very clear: For example the Visuddhimagga: 567 VRI Su~n~natekavidhaadiihiiti-ettha su~n~nato taava paramatthena hi sabbaaneva saccaani vedakakaarakanibbutagamakaabhaavato su~n~naaniiti veditabbaani. Teneta.m vuccati– "Dukkhameva hi, na koci dukkhito; kaarako na, kiriyaava vijjati; atthi nibbuti, na nibbuto pumaa; maggamatthi, gamako na vijjatii"ti. Translation from nanamoli xvi 90 ...As to void, single fold and so on: firstly, as to void: in the ultimate sense all the truths should be understood as void because of the absence of any experiencer, any doer, anyone who is extinguished and any goer. hence this is said: For there is suffering, but none who suffers; Doing exists although there is no doer; Extinction is but no extinguished person; Although there is a path there is no goer'"" Robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., "rahula_80" wrote: > Hi, > > I am seeking experts' help to solve this problem. I posted this in my > discussion group (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PaliTrans/) and > Robert Kirkpatrick suggest that I post it here. > > My comments or questions will be in //........// > > >> How do you translate this: > > Vimuttattaa .thita.m. .Thitattaa santusita.m. Santusitattaa na > paritassati. ........ [SN XXII.54 / SN iii.54 / CDB i 891 (Bija > Sutta)] << > > Bhikkhu Thanissaro's translation: > > "[I]t is steady. Owing to its steadiness, it is contented. Owing to > its contentment, it is not agitated. > > 16278 From: Sarah Date: Mon Oct 14, 2002 9:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Why did the Buddha meditate? Hi Norbu and also Eddie (Lou), Glad to see you've both 'broken the ice' on DSG. Hope you find it useful and we'll be glad to get to know you better if there's anything you'd like to share. --- Norbu wrote: > > perhaps Buddha's every moment is meditation itself. and when he sits > crossed legged, closed eyes he might be contemplating something > beyond the comprehension of our senses. > > norbu .... There have been some interesting comments on this theme. I think you make good points here. It is really impossible for us to imagine the extraordinary wisdom, knowledge and experience of the Buddha. From the recent extract in the Satipatthana Tika we read "Spiritual development usually called meditation, is the development of wisdom (pa~n~na bhavana)". In the Buddha's case the panna is fully developed and omniscient and whether sitting with eyes open or closed, walking, standing, eating or any other activity, there were conditions for panna, for all the discriminations (patisambhida)and for the highest jhanas according to what was appropriate or most beneficial(to others) at any given moment, as I understand. Hope to hear more about your interest in dhamma and where you both live. Sarah ====== 16279 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 14, 2002 9:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A pleasant time with Bhikkhu Bodhi Dear Sarah, I enjoyed very much your report of your session with B.B. I am glad you told him that we appreciate his translations. I hope Dr Ma can help him, Nina op 14-10-2002 11:37 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > > Today is mid-Autumn Festival in Hong Kong and a holiday. We met Bhikkhu > Bodhi by arrangement at mid-day and took him to meet Dr Ma and try yet > another treatment for his serious headache condition. Both B.Bodhi and Dr > Ma are very cheery and friendly by nature, so it turned out to be a > pleasant and hopefully useful session. 16280 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 14, 2002 9:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ekayana Dear Larry, As the Co states, it goes solely to nibbana. Only Buddhas teach it. As the subco states, the other factors of the eightfold Path besides mindfulness are implied in satipatthana. In all the scriptures, satipatthana is always implied. Nina op 14-10-2002 01:01 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Dear Jim and Nina, > > Thanks for the pali lesson, very interesting. For what it's worth, I can > think of several other ways of interpreting this sentence, not found in > the commentary. It could mean each of the four foundations is the same > in some way, or the one "going" of the eightfold path is satipatthana. > > I would be interested in how you summarize the various comments in the > commentary on ekaayano aya.m bikkhave maggo. > > Larry > 16281 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Mon Oct 14, 2002 9:44pm Subject: Abhidhammist disagree with Dispeller of delusion?KEN O --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Kenneth Ong wrote: I don't know the yardstick of one > definition of meditation but inside the "Dispeller of Delusion" there > is mention of meditation of the body parts in the section of > mindfulness. > > I wonder if any of the Abhidhammaist will disagree with what is > written in that section :) >kind rgds > KC > ++++++ Dear Ken O, Good to see you on the list. I was interested as to why you thought an "Abhidhammist" might disgree with the Sammohavinodani (Dispeller of delusion; an Abhidhamma commentary)? The section in the Dispeller of Delusion is similar to that on samatha bhavana in the Visuddhimagga. All types of samatha are high levels of kusala: In http://www.abhidhamma.org/meri3.html (deeds of Merit) """Acharn Sujin S. : The monks are accustomed to practise continuously, for a long time, four meditation subjects of samatha, in order to have calm of citta and to subdue defilements which can disturb them. Laypeople can also practise these four meditation subjects. The Dhamma and the Vinaya which the monks practise can also be applied by layfollowers in their own situation, as a means of subduing defilements. W. : What are these four meditation subjects? S. : Recollection of the excellent qualities of the Buddha, the development of mettaa (loving kindness), perception of repulsiveness and mindfulness of death..... The citta which recollects the qualities of the Buddha is pure and it is inclined to practise the Dhamma as it has been taught by the Buddha. At such moments the citta is gentle, one will not hurt or harm someone else. There is mettaa and benevolence, one wishes happiness for everybody. When we are developing the inclination to mettaa and benevolence for others we should take care not to be absorbed in pleasant objects [35. We can prevent this by considering the foulness of the body, both of ourselves and of others [36. If we neglect considering this we may go the wrong way and have attachment and infatuation instead of pure loving kindness. In order to prevent the citta to pursue objects which are pleasant and lead to infatuation, we should recollect death which will come certainly. Nobody knows when death will come, whether it will come after a long time or very soon. If we always recollect death it will help us more and more not to be neglectful of kusala. The opportunity for birth as a human being is very rare and therefore we should develop every poassible kind of kusala....... ......In daily life it is difficult to develop calm to the level of attainment concentration, which is jhaana. However, there is still a way to prevent the citta from thinking of things which cause the arising of defilements. We can think of subjects which are the condition for purity of citta. These subjects are: recollection of the excellent qualities of the Buddha, the development of mettaa, consideration of the foulness of the body and mindfulness of death. """"endquote I must admit, though, that I tend to avoid the recollection of the foulness of the body - it interferes with my appreciation of the female form. Perhaps your reminders can help me to have more viriya in this type of kusala. Robertt 16282 From: Jim Anderson Date: Mon Oct 14, 2002 9:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ekayana Dear Larry, > Dear Jim and Nina, > > Thanks for the pali lesson, very interesting. For what it's worth, I can > think of several other ways of interpreting this sentence, not found in > the commentary. It could mean each of the four foundations is the same > in some way, or the one "going" of the eightfold path is satipatthana. > > I would be interested in how you summarize the various comments in the > commentary on ekaayano aya.m bikkhave maggo. > > Larry I won't try summarizing the whole commentary on "ekaayano aya.m, bhikkhave, maggo" as it is just too long (over 4 pages in Pali) for me to tackle at this time as I'm not all that familiar with it. But I will try one for the various interpretations of 'ekaayano' as follows: 1. the only way, the one way 2. to be followed by oneself alone 3. the way of the (Blessed) one 4. the way in the one (dhamma and discipline) 5. the way to the one (nibbaana) The following interpretation is rejected for the reasons given in the commentary: 6. the one-time way, going once (saki.m ayano) The above points are given only after a preliminary reading of the material at hand both in English and Pali. No. 1, 4, & 6 are still not all that clear to me. It is no easy matter to understand what is actually being said and it's very easy to get bogged down in the details. Best wishes, Jim 16283 From: Jim Anderson Date: Mon Oct 14, 2002 9:49pm Subject: Re: Pali frustration was [dsg] Re: sutta question, mn 43 Dear Christine, > Dear All, > > I am encountering difficulty in using the Pali-English Dictionary and > the Pali alphabet. I have the Pali Alphabet by Ven. Narada printed > off. But, as not only the initial letter of the word is sorted by > this method,but also the internal letters in each word, I often give > up before finding the meaning of a word. > > For example, in trying to understand the meaning of 'resort', I was > looking up the meaning of the Pali word manopatisaranam. this is all your fault Frank :) - I'm trying to understand the Sutta > that you are having trouble with, and found the > word "manopatisaranam" in the notes to this Sutta on p.1237 of the > MN>. I found the word Mano on p. 520 of the PED. but have either > overlooked the complete word, or am looking in the wrong place. I > then tried Buddhadatta's dictionary and found 'pa.tisara.na nt. > shelter; help; protection", but, again, have no idea if this is > related in any way. Has anyone written a dictionary for Pali words > that follows the English alphabet? Nyanatiloka's, which does follow > the English alphabet, has a very brief entry for 'mano'. I recently read that R.C. Childers' Pali Dictionary is based on the English order of letters. It was first published in 1872 and reprints are still available. One suggestion on how to become more familiar with the Pali order of letters is to memorize all 41 of them in the traditional order and be able to recite them with ease from memory. There are some differences in the dictionary order that have to be learnt though such as the niggahiita (.m) before ya ra la va sa ha eg. sa.msaara comes well before sa"nkhaara and la and .la are often mixed up together. If manopa.tisara.na was in the PED it would have been listed among the compounds under mano. I checked and it's not there. Thanks for your response to my reference to the parrot story. The story of the 500 bats was the one I was thinking of and the dog story was a new one. Best wishes, Jim 16284 From: Sarah Date: Mon Oct 14, 2002 10:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dukkha - suffering/Howard Hi Howard & Christine, I understand and appreciate what you both write below about ‘finding a true kalyanamitta’ and the value of wise friendship. I rather like the saying Howard quotes below about the master appearing when the student is ready. As I understand it, anyone who gives good advice and support at times when one can appreciate it is a good friend. What is of most importance is the ability to listen and consider rather than any search with the usual expectations and attachments. “Just as a lake, deep, clear and still, even so, on hearing the teachings, the wise become exceedingly peaceful” Dhp 82. For example, how many of us can appreciate the good friend who points out our faults ‘as if indicating a treasure’? I know for myself that many opportunities for ‘good friedndship’ are lost because of the various kilesa which prevent the wise appreciation of the dhamma or pointing out of treasure. I also wonder a little, when we have the idea of looking for one who is wiser or has our spiritual welfare at heart, what the intents and motives are. Isn’t it rather like the discussion on metta, in that the concern should be with showing friendship and developing metta to others rather than in looking for friendship for oneself? Of course, as usual, the key is the intention and state of mind at the time and only wisdom will know whether it is wholesome or not. Just on a very mundane level, my students often talk about lack of friends or loss of friends or count their friends. Sometimes I suggest to them that instead of counting friends, perhaps they could count how many people they are friendly towards instead! Perhaps we can just do our best to be a good friend, rather than trying to gain good friends. “Metta has the characteristic of promoting the aspect of welfare. Its function is to prefer welfare. It is manifested as the removal of annoyance. Its proximate cause is seing lovableness in beings. It succeeds when it makes ill-will subside, and it fails when it produces selfish afection.” (Vism 1X, 93). Sarah ===== Howard wrote: Hi, Christine - In a message dated 10/11/02 3:26:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > There are a very few people I look to as kalyanamitta - my judgment > is that they are much further along in the development of > understanding than I, and can be trusted to have my spiritual welfare > at heart when replying to questions, or giving advice. But your > phrasing sounds a little more formal ... and I wonder how you find > such a one. > ========================= Yes, I meant it formally. But I don't think finding a true kalyanamitta is easy. There's an old occultist saying: "When the student is ready, the master will appear". Perhaps that's so. Meanwhile, I suppose we can search within the Bhikkhu Sangha as a likely source. However, until a true kalyanamitta has been found we can take the Dhamma as our guide. That, together with our practice, is the true guide. With metta, Howard 16285 From: antony272b2 Date: Mon Oct 14, 2002 10:30pm Subject: Re: Munindra-ji teachings Thanks Sarah, he sounds like a wonderful teacher. Ven Pannyavaro here in Sydney says he was his first vipassana teacher in Bodh Gaya. If I remember rightly he said Munindra-ji would teach mindfulness to village women doing their cooking and some of them developed insight. Thanks / Antony. --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Dear Antony, > > --- Antony Woods wrote: > Dear List, > > > Does anyone have any teachings from Munindra-ji? > ..... > When I met Munindra, I was so impressed by his sweetness, kindness and > modesty that I had no interest in following other courses or teachers. > I think what I value most was his example of kindness, patience and > modesty and his encouragement to study and consider, rather than just > follow. Particularly for me at that time, coming from a Christian > background and having already studied psychology for an honours degree, > was the emphasis he'd make on not having to accept any part of the > teachings on blind faith, but to test and prove and question again and > again. Other meditation teachers did not share this emphasis. The other > big factor for me in those days was my social conscience and concern and > here we were in the poorest state in India. By his example, Munindra > helped me to have more confidence in being content with helping and > sharing as best one could at the present time, rather than making life so > complicated with ones grandiose schemes and proliferations about what else > one should be doing. I know he'd be very happy to see this sharing of > dhamma on DSG and other websites and discussion lists. > > Hope this helps and I'll be glad to hear the reason for your interest > sometime. It's been a pleasure to consider more. > > Sarah > ==== 16286 From: Sarah Date: Mon Oct 14, 2002 10:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Jim, the Parrot, the Bats, the Dog, the Frog and the Flea (WAY 10) Hi Christine & Jim, Thank you Chris for your usual thorough research and rounding up of wise animals;-)) What I was particularly interested in (from Jim’s original post) was the suggestion that the parrot was developing satipatthana. In the other stories, we hear about an appreciation of ‘good’, but not a suggestion of any understanding of satipatthana which I believed was not possible in the animal realm. For example, in the frog and flea story, the frog only knew ‘this is good’. The commentary summary below is very interesting. I’ll be glad to hear any further clarification or examples. ..... > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Jim Anderson" > > almost a full page has been omitted. The commentary explains here > that > > animals that depend on humans can also engage in the practice of > > satipatthana as illustrated by a story about a young parrot trained > by > > a mahatheri to contemplate on 'bone'. ..... Sarah p.s I hope Andrew got to see your fine round-up, Chris, given his love of animals too. ======================================== 16287 From: rahula_80 Date: Mon Oct 14, 2002 11:06pm Subject: Re: Vimuttattaa Hi, > It is not uncommon to come across translators > who seize on a few sentences to support some unusual interpretation > they have. But this person, Shakya Aryanatta have not translated only a "few sentences" but suttas and the Commentarries. He also said that Visuddhimagga is not the Buddha's teaching! He is only interested in the Suttas. Rahula 16288 From: Sarah Date: Mon Oct 14, 2002 11:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 10, Comm. To Sarah (and Suan) Dear Jim, Thank you for the further info on the point about (a)pilaapana- non-floating vs reciting. I followed your notes below and found the relevant lines in the sutta (Sotaanugatasutta, AN,1V, 191 PTS transl). I’m not able to make any intelligent comments about the Pali (Suan or Nina may), but will just make a few brief reflections: 1. The sutta (which I like very much and have quoted from before) is all about the importance of hearing, considering repeatedly and recalling what one has heard as a condition for direct wisdom to arise. “Those teachings heard with the ear...are thoroughly penetrated by view....” It reminds me of the discussion with Rob M on a few lines from Sabbasava Sutta and the recalling of past ‘good’ as a condition for wisdom. 2. I don’t have the Cone dict, but it seems that both it and PED give 2 meanings for (a) pilapanti/apilaapana. The first is reciting, repeating or recalling. The second (perhaps in the Cond dict??) is non-floating for apilaapana. 3. By recalling, there is ‘non-floating’......?? I know they are from 2 different forms. Jim, I’m clearly out of my depth here;-) It would seem to me that both meanings are correct in different contexts.I wouldn’t like to see the ‘non-floating’ meaning which makes sense and agrees with the commentaries as a definition of sati to be thrown out b.c. there is another meaning of reciting used in this and other suttas. Perhaps as Nanamoli suggests in this quote (which I gave before), it has one meaning usu. used in the commentaries and another commonly given in the suttas: ..... S: “In the Netti transl.by Nanamoli we are given this footnote: “ ‘Apilaapana -non-floating away’:Not as in PED for all Netti and similar refs. The word is the same as the abstract form apiilapanataa (i.e, a+pilaapana+taa:see PED) and is glossed by NettiA with ogaahana. the root is plu (to swim or float), not lap; see PED pilovati, and also CPD. Mindfulness is regarded as keeping in mind ‘anchored’ on its object and preventing it from ‘floating away’ from it.” “ More I can’t say and what I've said already is probably nonsense, but I find your comments v.interesting. ..... --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Currently I don't have the article at hand so I'm just going mostly from > memory. The sutta is the Sotaanugatasutta (AN IV.191) but Norman > focusses on > just one short sentence as follows but you have to read it in the sutta > for > the context: > > Tassa tattha sukhino dhammapadaani pi lapanti. (he quotes from the PTS. > ed. ***** On the other point: S: > > Jim, I just looked at SN43, Asankhatasamyutta which you referred to > as > > being 'somewhat confusing' in this light.I don't read there being many > > paths, but various aspects of the same path, eg 4 Foundations of > > Mindfulness, 4 Rt Efforts, Enlightenment Factors, 8fold path, > Faculties, > > Powers and so on. They are not alternatives as I understand but I > agree > > that taken on its own - especially the first segment - it is rather > > misleading. This is why I don't think suttas can be taken 'on their > own'. > J: > I once calculated that there are 1748 suttas (56x33) in this sa.myutta > which > only takes up a few pages. I'm reading here that there are 56 paths > leading > to nibbaaana (or one of its 32 synonyms). eg. samatha is a path, > vipassanaa > is another, the two together yet another, and so on. Perhaps the > explanation > (which Soma doesn't translate) in the Satipatthanasutta commentary on > how > the 4 satipatthanas taken together can be one path might help sort this > one > out. ..... As I understand, one path - that of the development of the 4 satipatthanas (or 5 khandhas as object of satipatthana). Accumultions being so different, objects of awareness and understanding and for example, development of samatha and its objects will be different for all - so a great number of combinations and variations. Still, only one path. Sarah ===== 16289 From: Sarah Date: Tue Oct 15, 2002 0:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vimuttattaa Hi Rahula, --- rahula_80 wrote: > Hi, > But this person, Shakya Aryanatta have not translated only a "few > sentences" but suttas and the Commentarries. > > He also said that Visuddhimagga is not the Buddha's teaching! He is > only interested in the Suttas. .... I think his views and emphasis on Suttas only is very common. Further, I think that those of us who appreciate the value of the Visuddhimagga, all other pali canon commentaries and the Abhidhamma are the unusual minority. We were discussing the importance of helping others to see the value of these yesterday with B.Bodhi. It's interesting to see your research and I appreciate the confidence you have in really considering the Teachings in depth. Perhaps you can encourage your friends to look at other translations which make more sense. I'm sure that those that consider carefully will see the pitfalls in any translation. Glad to read about your serious study of Pali and interest in dhamma, Sarah ====== 16290 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 15, 2002 10:14am Subject: Perfections, Ch 6, Energy, no 6 Perfections, Ch 6, Energy, no 6 When dosa arises, we have displeasure, but sati sampajañña can arise and be aware of its characteristic and then we can see the benefit of sati sampajañña. If someone has listened to the Dhamma and he is not inert but immediately gives up akusala, we can see that kusala viriya performs its function at that moment. When a certain type of akusala arises and after that there is sati sampajañña, it may realize the characteristic of kusala viriya which endeavours to refrain from anger. This kind of viriya is different from thinking of refraining from anger. It arises at the moment of sati sampajañña, when there is energy or effort to realize the unwholesomeness of anger, and to realize that mettå is the opposite of anger. That is effort for forgiving, effort for mettå. At such a moment we can remember that everybody, including ourselves, makes mistakes. Therefore, we should not have anger or displeasure on account of someone else or of dhammas which arise and then fall away. However, feeling and remembrance, saññå, are conditions for being slow and inert in letting go of one¹s thoughts about circumstances and events and thus, there are conditions for the arising of akusala. There are different aspects and degrees of viriya which has been further developed: viriya which is a predominant factor (adhipati), a basis of success (iddhi-påda) (4), a faculty (indriya) or a power (bala). When viriya has not reached those degrees one cannot understand the characteristic of viriya that accompanies satipatthåna and that has become strong. As we have seen, viriya has been classified among the faculties, indriyas (leaders each in their own field). These are: the faculty of confidence, saddhå, the faculty of sati the faculty of paññå the faculty of energy, viriya the faculty of concentration, samådhi This shows us that the faculty of viriya arises together with confidence, sati, paññå and samådhi, and thus, this must be kusala viriya. Realities can be classified in different ways, for example, by way of the four bases of success, iddhi-påda (leading to enlightenment): wish-to-do (chanda) energy (viriya) citta investigation (vímamsa). Thus we see that there are different aspects of viriya. The cetasikas which are faculties are not indentical with the cetasikas which are bases of success. Such classifications are very detailed, but these show us that there can be kusala viriya of different degrees. Footnote 4. There are four realities which can be predominance-condition, adhipata-paccaya: wish-to-do (chanda), energy (viriya), citta, which stands for firmness of citta or concentration, and investigation which is paññå (vímamsa). The same four factors can also be classified as bases of success, iddhi-påda. They are among the factors pertaining to enlightenment. 16291 From: jinavamsa Date: Tue Oct 15, 2002 1:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ekayana hello Nina and Larry and all, It is typically worthwhile for me to go back to the Sutta here and its cmy. So this posting is a stimulus or invitation for me to do so again. Thank you. I wonder that if only Buddhas teach this teaching, then what are other people doing when they teach this teaching? I see that the "one way" (ekaayana) is called the way of the one (or of the best or of the Buddha), but does that imply here that only a buddha/Buddha can relay this to others? I see a variety of renderings of ekaayana, or interpretations of why this way is called the one way, such as that one must walk it oneself, that it goes in only direction (like a one-way street) or to one destination, ... I am wondering about the teaching of Culla Naaga to his teacher Culla Summa. esp. the quotations there from the Pa.tisambhidaa Magga. Would you (or anyone) like to comment on that passage, with the background idea that this Way is the preliminary part and not a mixed way? thank you for all comments and clarifications, Jinavamsa --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Larry, > As the Co states, it goes solely to nibbana. Only Buddhas teach it. As the > subco states, the other factors of the eightfold Path besides mindfulness > are implied in satipatthana. > In all the scriptures, satipatthana is always implied. > Nina > op 14-10-2002 01:01 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: 16292 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Oct 15, 2002 2:59pm Subject: Fwd: Re: Frustration with Pali, etc Michael (Mike O)asked us to share the following: ................................................. --- Michael Olds wrote: > Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 > Hello, > > You might direct your reader's attention to the existance of an on-line > PED > at: > http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/index.html > > and a downloadable version at: > > http://www.nibbanam.com/dict.htm > > which can be searched using one's search tool (taking care of problems > remembering the sequence of letters by way of using cut and paste if one > is > searching an on line text, or by just typing in the word in the search > tool; > one does need to learn to recognize compounds and when to use and or > change > prefixes and suffixes, but this tool will actually speed that learning > process), where here the word: pa.tisara.na would have been found on > page > 401. > > > Best Wishes! > Michael Olds > Los Altos California > http://www.BuddhaDust.org 16293 From: Date: Tue Oct 15, 2002 4:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ekayana Thanks Nina and Jim for your summaries. Here are a few additional remarks. Why teach this sutta? because of the ability of the Kuru to take in deep doctine. The Kuru are happy, with healthy mind and body (due to perfect climate) and have the power of knowledge. QUESTION: what is "power of knowledge"? QUESTION: what does "having set up the subject of meditation, in arahantship, in 21 places" mean? Kuru were earnest in application of satipatthana to their daily life. COMMENT: not just secluded meditation. There was social prssure for everyone to do it, even servants, no useless talk at gathering places. COMMENT: it was a practice, not just an activity that may or may not arise. Those who didn't practice were told, "Your life is shameful; though you live you are as if dead." Ekayana = single way, not double. QUESTION: Does this imply that samatha and vipassana go together? or that there is one "way" in the 4 arousings? Ekayana = going alone. This means without companions, abandoning the crowd and withdrawn from craving through tranquility of mind. COMMENT: Tranquility is definitly a factor in satipatthana and it is characterized as aloneness. Ekayana = way of the one, i.e., the Buddha, because he creates it; it exists only in his doctrine-and-discipline. "Only in this doctine-and-discipline is the 8-fold way to be found." COMMENT: 8-fold way is equated with satipatthana as ekayana. Ekayana = goes to the one, i.e., nibbana. Nibbana is without a second in not having any accompanying quality such as desire. This means, "Truth is one; it is without a second." When arousing of mindfulness is mentioned the 8-fold path is implied. QUESTION: Does this mean that when satipatthana is practiced the entire 8-fold path is practiced? Ekayana does NOT in this sutta mean one goes to nibanna only once. The way that is described here is repeated many times. "In this instruction the earlier part of the path is intended." Earlier = mundane (lokiya). This is because it is repeated many times for up to 7 years. COMMENT: The supramundane path (lokuttara magga) is the goal this path leads to. In what sense is it a 'way'? It is a way in that it goes toward nibbana and it is the way one _should_ go toward nibbana. The elders of old were not envious and did not go about holding up only what they liked. They took up what was rational and gave up what was not. COMMENT: Elders can be wrong. Reason settles the disagreement. The preliminary part of the way of mindfulness is called the only way. Preliminary (mundane) part = 8-fold path, 4 truths, & dispassion which is the best possession of the wise. "Walk along that way so that you may confound death and put an end to suffering." Larry 16294 From: Sarah Date: Wed Oct 16, 2002 1:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 12, Comm./Larry Hi Larry (& Chris), --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Thanks Christine, very interesting. Just to expand a bit, the way I read > it attha is knowledge of results, dhamma is knowledge of conditions, > nirutti is knowledge of language (how to explain the first two), and > patibhana is knowledge of all kinds of knowledge (don't know what this > could be). I wonder if there are philosophical terms for these four. > Apparently they are lokuttara cittas. I couldn't find them in CMA. > Anyone else know anything about this term, "pa.tisambhidaa"? ..... You may wish to review the thread of posts on patisambhida between Num and Nina under Patisambhidamagga 1, 2 etc. These are based on the text of the same name (Path of Discrimination) from the Khuddhakanikaya, Sutta Pitaka and was expounded by Ven Sariputta. The following are in Useful Posts under: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ Patisambhidamagga (Path of Discrimination) 14156, 14178, 15064 Note that while the 'well-discriminated' wisdoms (patisambhida) only refer to the wisdom of an ariyan, they are not lokuttara cittas, which as we've discussed refer to the 8 lokuttara magga and phala cittas only. This is a very complex area. Hopefully Num will be adding more detail in due course. Sarah ======= 16295 From: Sarah Date: Wed Oct 16, 2002 4:47am Subject: Hiri, Ottappa, Dukkha and Satipatthana Dear Erik, Rob M, Chris, WL & All, --- rikpa21 wrote: > > Aw heck, just a couple of brief comments now. Regret for past > misdeeds of either comission or omission are part & parcel of hiri & > ottapa, and regret is an important factor when it serves the purpose > of spurring one to further development, as has my regret for not > having practiced as diligently as I could have (due to sheer > laziness). If it hinders progress as kukucca, that is an entirely > different story. That is not the case here. ..... These comments encouraged me to consider more on hiri (moral shame) and ottappa (moral dread of the results of wrong doing), along with those in B.Bodhi’s in his article on hiri and ottappa which Rob M also referred to: > "Guardians of the World" by Bhikkhu Bodhi > > http://www.buddhistinformation.com/guardians_of_the_world.htm ***** In particular, I’ve been considering more about their characteristics in connection with discussions on dukkha. Lack of shame or hiri (ahirika) and lack of wise concern for the consequences (anottappa) arise with every akusala citta (unwholesome consciousness). In other words, with every moment of ignorance there is a lack of shame about it and so with every moment of attachment, however subtle and with every moment of aversion. They relate, therefore, to the present consciousness, rather than the past. Of course, it’s possible to have moments of wise reflection about past unwholesome deeds and actions and in this case it will be accompanied by hiri and ottappa, but usually, when reflecting on the past, it is bound to be with moha, lobha or dosa. Any time there is no dana, sila or bhavana, it will be unwholesome. We may feel we wish to develop these sobhana (beautiful) mind states of hiri and ottappa and read that they ‘these two bright states protect the world’ and without them we would all be living immorally (AN, 2s, 1-9. However, they can only be developed by understanding the difference between wholesome and unwholesome states of mind and by seeing the danger in the latter, however subtle. In other words, understanding is the forerunner of kusala states and ignorance is the forerunner of akusala states as shown in The Knowledge Sutta, Itivuttaka, Double items, 40, Masefield transl: ..... “This, unquestionably - so has there been heard by me - was stated by the Lord, was stated by the Arahant, viz. “Ignorance, monks, is the forerunner in the attainment of unskilled states, an absence of shame and a fear of reproach its follower; whilst knowledge, monks, is the forerunner in the attainment of skilled states, a sense of shame and a fear of reproach its follower”. This matter the Lord did state; it was in connection therewith that this was so stated: “Whatever miserable destinies there be in this world and the other are all rooted in ignorance, being accumulations by way of want and greed; Due to which one becomes one whose wanting is evil, one lacking a sense of shame, one lacking regard, whereby one pursues that which is evil, goes as a result to a state of loss. Therefore, the monk, in ridding himself of lust for wanting, greed and ignorance, in giving rise to knowledge, renounces all miserable destinies”.” ***** We read about the internal and external references or causes for hiri and ottappa, but they always arise together and refer to the present consciousness. In ‘Cetasikas’: http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html Nina refers to the Paramattha Manjusa (commentary to Visuddhimagga) which compares shamelessnes (ahirika) to ‘a domestic pig which does not abhor filth.’ and recklessness (anottappa) to ‘a moth which is attracted to the fire’. Usually there is ignorance about the unclean or filthy nature of defilements and no understanding of the danger of them. The problems in the world, the lack of general appreciation of the ‘filth’ or ‘danger’ of unwholesomeness, is no different today than it’s ever been. Ignorance has always been the forerunner even though, as Christine has pointed out, it can be difficult when we are faced with problems in the world or others’ suffering to accept ‘kamma and anatta’ or to accept that the disturbance or grief we feel for others at these times is really an indication of the clinging to our own pleasant feelings and experiences. I found the following paragraph from Perfections, (Energy, ch 6) a helpful reminder on this point: “It must be paññå which sees the difference between the city of bandits and the city of peace. The city of peace is calm, whereas the city of bandits means disturbance, confusion and restlessness. So long as there is wrong view which takes realities for self, being or person, one cannot be free from restlessness, disturbance and worry. Thus, one should understand that all defilements and dukkha are bound up with one’s ‘own person’, which actually are nåma dhammas and rúpa dhammas.” ***** In other words, we think we are grieving for others - the deceased, the injured, the harmed - but really it is the accumulated aversion which grieves the loss of pleasant feelings at these times I believe. Understanding even just a little about kamma and anatta doesn’t mean any less concern or consideration or assistance for others’ suffering, quite the reverse. With more understanding, acceptance and equanimity, accompanied by ‘the guardians of the world’, hiri and ottappa, there will be more conditions to act wisely and with less consideration for oneself and ones own feelings. there will be less disturbance or anxiety on account of the past or present lack of greater assistance or noble qualities. As we have just read in the commentary to the Satipatthana Sutta (Way 12, comm, the only way to overcome grief is by the development of mindfulness of the objects of satipatthana: ..... “Sokaparidevanam samatikkamaya = "For the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation." If this Way is developed it will lead to the casting out of sorrow similar to that experienced by the Minister Santati, and the casting out of lamentation similar to that of Patacara. With analytical knowledge did Santati reach arahantship after hearing this stanza: Purge out the things belonging to the past; Let there be naught in the world to rise in future times. If what's twixt past and future you don't grasp, You will be one who wanders forth serene.[11] Patacara reached the fruition of the first stage of arahantship after hearing the following: For one who is by death oppressed there is No safety seen in children, father, friends Or others close to one. A shelter true Amongst one's kinsfolk one does never find.[12] Since there is nothing called spiritual development [bhavana] without laying hold on something whatsoever in material form, feeling, consciousness and mental objects [kaya vedana citta dhammesu kiñci dhammam anamasitva] they (Santati and Patacara) too overcame sorrow and lamentation just by this Way of Mindfulness.” ***** Finally, WL made some very helpful comments about coninuing “the journey on our own” and about the understanding of anatta being “the key to that understanding of the cause” of our problems. He also wisely said at the end of his post: ..... >It's only > through experience that we'll come to truth. Also, showing > people truth takes teamwork by many people, some people > serves as the teacher, some as translators, some as scholars. > You will find the path you will be taking by looking at >yourself, understanding your inclination. ..... I appreciate all for the reminders and teamwork here. Let me just repeat once more from Way 12, comm: ..... “Spiritual development usually called meditation, is the development of wisdom [pañña bhavana]. Just the contemplation of material form (corporeality), of feeling, consciousness or mental objects, constitutes the cultivation of the Arousing of Mindfulness.” ***** Sarah ====== 16296 From: abhidhammika Date: Wed Oct 16, 2002 8:53am Subject: Pali frustration was [dsg] To Christine Dear Christine How are you? Which edition of Majjhimanikaayo 43 were you using? In Section 455 Mulapa.n.naasa, Majjhimanikaayo, in the Chatthasangayana CD-ROM version 3, the reading is "mano pa.tisarana.m" instead of "manopa.tisaranam". The context of the passage is an answer to the question "ki.m pa.tisarana.m?". The answer is "Mano pa.tisarana.m". Therefore, "mano" is the subject of the answer sentence. It is not the compound "manopa.tisarana.m". Please look up "pa.tisarana.m" in the first column on page 401 in PTS PED. Please kindly check the edition of your Pali text. With kind regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: Dear All, I am encountering difficulty in using the Pali-English Dictionary and the Pali alphabet. I have the Pali Alphabet by Ven. Narada printed off. But, as not only the initial letter of the word is sorted by this method,but also the internal letters in each word, I often give up before finding the meaning of a word. For example, in trying to understand the meaning of 'resort', I was looking up the meaning of the Pali word manopatisaranam. . I found the word Mano on p. 520 of the PED. but have either overlooked the complete word, or am looking in the wrong place. I then tried Buddhadatta's dictionary and found 'pa.tisara.na nt. shelter; help; protection", but, again, have no idea if this is related in any way. Has anyone written a dictionary for Pali words that follows the English alphabet? Nyanatiloka's, which does follow the English alphabet, has a very brief entry for 'mano'. metta, Christine 16297 From: Robert Epstein Date: Wed Oct 16, 2002 9:15am Subject: The D.C. Sniper --- Robert Epstein wrote: Dear Friends, I am in the Washington, D.C. area, and Sarah was kind enough to write me privately and to ask how I and my family were getting along, given the recent 'random shootings' by an unknown sniper. He has killed 9 people so far, and wounded 2, usually while they were outside their cars near a highway. I wrote back to Sarah, and we thought it might make an interesting topic for the group. Here is my reply to Sarah: ================ Hi Sarah. Thank you for your good wishes. Yes, the sniper attacks are 'right around the corner' for all D.C. folk. It is quite disconcerting, BUT luckily for a Buddhist type person it can be used as a reminder of both impermanence and the inherent insecurity and lack of control that this reality has. I find that being mindful of the potential to be shot at any moment, as unlikely as it is, is a bracing invitation to enter the moment fully, and to inhabit the full possibility of cause and effect that it represents. It is sort of like the 'dead body' exercise that some Buddhists do in monastery, contemplating impermanence and unsatisfactory nature of the physical life. While it is not pleasant, it brings out the aversion to unpleasantness, doesn't it? So I am trying to stay with this kind of scrutiny a bit. I am of course, practically concerned for myself and family, and try to avoid certain situations which might be dangerous, but we have also kept sending Emmy to her preschool, kept up some normal routines, and even gone to a playground and outing or two that seemed reasonable. So I think there's a good balance of discernment and action, as much as we're capable of. I don't want to underplay the tension that this situation creates, only that the teachings are helpful in urging me to 'embrace' the situation and use it to be more fully present in the moment, and live the moment rather than run away from it. Best, Robert Ep. 16298 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 16, 2002 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: subtle rupas Dear Rob M, see below op 15-10-2002 00:27 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > The rupa jivitindriya is a subtle rupa; it does not impinge directly > on the senses. It is also a "produced rupa" that can be known > directly and therefore has a characteristic that can be directly > known (suitable for the practice of insight). It would appear from > this Sutta, that it is kamma-born heat that might be the > characteristic of the rupa jivitindriya that can be directly known. > So how does this work? Our body-sense detects that our body is warm > and therefore we know that we are physically alive? Is there a > concept involved (many instances of body-sense detecting of heat > merged into a whole)? N: The jivitindriya rupa arises in a group of rupas produced by kamma, only in living beings. In that group is also the great Element of heat, and jivitindriya and heat condition one another by way of conascence and other conditions. Should we try to be aware of jivitindriya? Does it appear naturally to the sati without directing it? Why should we try? There are coarse rupas which appear all the time: the rupas impinging on the sensedoors. It is already difficult enough to know these as they are. We have to be careful with the study of the Abhidhamma. There is a warning in the Atthasalini. If people try to know directly all dhammas taught in the abhidhamma, it can possibly lead to unbalance of mind. >R: What about the other subtle rupas which are "produced"; masculinity, > femininity and heart-base? What are the characterisitics that allow > these rupas to be known directly? In the case of masculine / > feminine, might it be a visible object? If this is the case, it must > be a concept, right? N: same as above. They are rupas, not concepts. We can think about such rupas, after seeing we know this is a man, a woman. But why should we try to be aware of them directly? That is not the way. R: For heart base, I suspect it might be the > existence of nama (except for the sense consciousness cittas, all > cittas with their cetasikas depend on the heart base). Comments? N: You are right. We can think of the heartbase, but who can know it directly? It is useful to learn details about rupas because it helps us to see the manifold conditions for what we call human being. We learn to see it as a puppet. If we think that all realities we learn about should be directly known, our study can become full of stress. Satipatthana: awareness of any nama or rupa, without trying or directing. There should not be any thought of I should know this particular kind of rupa. Satipatthana is the one and only way, because it is for all kinds of people with diverse accumulations. For people who do not cultivate jhana and for those who have accumulations for jhana. Also for laypeople who have their daily work. For people with defilements: citta with lobha and dosa, even of strong degrees can be object of awareness so that we learn that they are conditioned namas. See the third Application of Mindfulness: seeing citta in citta. When someone who is dear to us has died we may be overcome by sadness. There are namas and there are also rupas conditioned by citta, by feeling. But we should not try to pinpoint them, then we are thinking again. Much less could we try to experience heartbase. If we try, we make our study and practice needlessly complicated. But when we know that our foremost duty is satipatthana it can condition sati in between sadness. I was overcome by sadness yesterday, when attending the funeral service of our Queen's husband Prince Claus in the church in Delft. Much more than in the case of a family member. Our discussions on ekaayano maggo, the only way, is a helpful reminder of our foremost duty in such and other situations. The Buddha taught satipatthana to help people. If we remember our first and foremost duty, the Buddha has not taught satipatthana in vain for us. R: > A year or so ago, I attended a day long talk on the Heart Sutta > given by an Englishman who had been a Theravada monk for many years > and then disrobed. During his talk, he said that he saw little value > in the Abhidhamma "because it was not based on reality". He came to > this sweeping generalization of a conclusion, throwing the baby out > with the bathwater, because he had asked his teacher how he could > directly experience bhavanga in a meditation experience and his > teacher had no answer. I have been mulling over this issue ever > since. The predominant cetasika during bhavanga is jivitindriya. My > comments above discuss how we might be able to detect the rupa > jivitindriya, but how can we detect the cetasika jivitindriya? N:Bhavangacitta has a characteristic, but who can be aware of it? There is not only jivitindriya cetasika with the bhavangacitta, but also other cetasikas. I have not heard that this cetasika is predominant. A. Sujin explained: when there is bhavangacitta no object appears, there is nothing. Bhavangacitta has its own object but it is hidden. Then, when an object impinges on one of the doorways, an object appears, this is different from the moment of bhavanga. Can we try to detect it? No. That is not the answer. Thus, again, visible object, seeing, sound, hearing, feeling, lobha, dosa, are appearing time and again, and these are already difficult to know for us. Nina. 16299 From: Peter DaCosta Date: Wed Oct 16, 2002 1:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cemetery Contemplations christine_forsyth wrote: Hi Antony, and all, Thanks for your interesting post - it raises a few problems for me however. 2. (i) The strength of the words used in buddhism often seems 'over the top', and makes it more difficult upon reflection to apply to oneself. For example, "lust" to me means something like "inordinate craving and passionate sinful desire. Something that obsesses the mind." I clearly have a problem understanding what lust, hate, greed means in a buddhist sense as it applies to ordinary daily life. metta, Christine Hi Christine For the practice of applying any Pali contemplation to daily life to have any value, an open mind for the entire range of meaning is important, so that what ever was appropriate for any situation could be called upon, depending on the context of time and place. For most people, in most situations, the extreme end of the scale would be seldom if ever applicable, but in moment to moment awareness in the general flow of everyday life, the most subtle interpretations are very often the most useful. An experimental approach is probably the most useful. Cheers Peter peterd@p... 16300 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Oct 16, 2002 1:28pm Subject: Re: The D.C. Sniper Dear RobEp, Sarah, and All, Rob, I'm thinking of you with metta - may you and your loved ones be safe and protected. My daughter was in Washington on the first weekend the sniper struck, but is 'home safe' now. So all the worry about what might have happened to her there and to the plane on the way home was pointless. As you say - learning to live with impermanence, uncontrollability, and in the present moment is so important (but so difficult, I think). The most chilling thing about the sniper in Washington, and the incident most affecting Australians at this moment - the bombing in the holiday playground, Bali - is that inoffensive 'good' people going about normal happy daily activities die when least expecting it. Not at a semi-predictable point in a life cycle - many of the dead and missing in Bali are superbly fit and healthy young footballers on 'reward' trips for being the Champion team of the Season. Death came not from an 'accident', not from chronic illness, not because 'they deserve it' - it was the random, uncontrollable, choice of another. We imagine we can delay or deflect other eventualites. But what difference would it make if my son or daughter died from slipping in the shower? - it is just as heart breaking and unexpected as a bullet or bomb. There seems to be no meaning, no reason why or when one particular individual dies... No reason why one dies over another. Buddhists look to kamma for explanation. I find it difficult to tease out the role of kamma from fatalism. Where is there safety? There is none. How can I protect my dear ones? I can't. Throughout life, I constructed an imaginary wall of safety around myself and my children with 'Look both ways before crossing the street", "Wash your hands before eating", "Don't talk to strangers", "Don't put the knife in the toaster while it is turned on", "Yes, you must have your scheduled immunisation to protect you from disease", "Don't drive with anyone who has been drinking alcohol", 'Eat a healthy diet, exercise well" --- All those in Bali, and all the snipers victims would have done these things. There is no safety. All of us will die of something - old age, disease, accidents, or violence - and always too soon. The difficulties surrounding the practice of the Cemetery contemplations were recently highlighted, but Maranasati (Mindfulness of Death) may present another avenue for destoying complacency and worry, emphasising the need to live only in the present moment, and sensitising us to the rarity of this human birth and our incredible good fortune in having in access to the Dhamma. Just to underline the urgent need for study and practice, and the commonplace occurrence of death - over 200,00 people of all ages (and staggeringly countless numbers of Other Beings) will cycle out of this life TODAY on planet Earth. Very few of them will think they have lived long enough, or be prepared to go. There will still be so much they had intended to do. Just as they are ... so indeed am I. And so the round continues..... metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > Dear Friends, > I am in the Washington, D.C. area, and Sarah was kind enough to write me privately > and to ask how I and my family were getting along, given the recent 'random > shootings' by an unknown sniper. He has killed 9 people so far, and wounded 2, > usually while they were outside their cars near a highway. > > I wrote back to Sarah, and we thought it might make an interesting topic for the > group. Here is my reply to Sarah: > > ================ > > Hi Sarah. > Thank you for your good wishes. Yes, the sniper attacks are 'right around the > corner' for all D.C. folk. > > It is quite disconcerting, BUT luckily for a Buddhist type person it can be used > as a reminder of both impermanence and the inherent insecurity and lack of control > that this reality has. > > I find that being mindful of the potential to be shot at any moment, as unlikely > as it is, is a bracing invitation to enter the moment fully, and to inhabit the > full possibility of cause and effect that it represents. It is sort of like the > 'dead body' exercise that some Buddhists do in monastery, contemplating > impermanence and unsatisfactory nature of the physical life. > > While it is not pleasant, it brings out the aversion to unpleasantness, doesn't > it? So I am trying to stay with this kind of scrutiny a bit. > > I am of course, practically concerned for myself and family, and try to avoid > certain situations which might be dangerous, but we have also kept sending Emmy to > her preschool, kept up some normal routines, and even gone to a playground and > outing or two that seemed reasonable. So I think there's a good balance of > discernment and action, as much as we're capable of. > > I don't want to underplay the tension that this situation creates, only that the > teachings are helpful in urging me to 'embrace' the situation and use it to be > more fully present in the moment, and live the moment rather than run away from > it. > > Best, > Robert Ep. > 16301 From: azita gill Date: Wed Oct 16, 2002 3:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Why did the Buddha meditate?and not ride horses --- Sarah wrote: > Hi Norbu and also Eddie (Lou), > > > .... > There have been some interesting comments on this > theme. I think you make > good points here. It is really impossible for us to > imagine the > extraordinary wisdom, knowledge and experience of > the Buddha. > > > hello all and esp. Sarah, I appreciate your usually very clear comments, and the seemingly lge. amounts of energy you put into dsg. ta muchly. < I relate to KenH, regarding sending mail, so much goes round and round in my head, and that's as far as it goes. However, this one seems quite clear to me. The Buddha, like us, had accumulations, and as you say, was an extraordinary being. We read about his life just before he became the Buddha, how he spent a long time doing austere practices, meditation being a big part of that. After enlightenment, he taught the ppl for many hours, but when that was finished, he didn't have the accumlations to go ride horses for example. So he went and did what he was good at - meditating - and as someone wrote before, maybe that was a perfect way for him to rest, to be refreshed for the next day's teaching. I almost can't imagine how wise the Buddha really was; and 'I' really want to be in the front row when the next Buddha is around. > patience, courage and good cheer, > Azita. > 16302 From: azita gill Date: Wed Oct 16, 2002 3:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The D.C. Sniper --- Robert Epstein wrote: > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > > Dear Friends, > I am in the Washington, D.C. area, and Sarah was > kind enough to write me privately > and to ask how I and my family were getting along, > given the recent 'random > shootings' by an unknown sniper [snip] > an interesting topic for the > group. Here is my reply to Sarah: > > ================ > > Hi Sarah. > Thank you for your good wishes. Yes, the sniper > attacks are 'right around the > corner' for all D.C. folk. > > > Dear Robert, thanks for writing about these unsettling events. One of my daughters has taken a job in the Middle East, in U.A.E. and given the current issues in the world, I have been feeling a bit nervous for her. Like you, I feel that Buddha's teachings sure help in times like this. I wrote the following to Abby [daughter]: > 'I am the owner of my actions, heir of my < actions. I am born of my actions. I am < related to my actions and I have my actions < as my refuge. Whatever I do, good or evil, < of that I will be the heir' < Ang.Nik 5[57] > > > Cheers, Azita > 16303 From: Date: Wed Oct 16, 2002 7:37pm Subject: patisambhidha magga Hi Sarah and Christine, In reading a little in Visuddhimagga XIV this is how I see it, corrections welcome. The 4 Discriminations (translated as "analytical knowledge" by Soma Thera) are classed under 'kinds of knowledge' and could be considered as the (or *a*) path that aryans follow. Nyanamoli gives this definition: Patisanbhidha is usually rendered by 'analysis' (see e.g. "Points of Controversy - Kattavatthu" translation pp. 377ff). But the Tipitaka explanations of the four patisambhidha suggest no emphasis on analysis rather than synthesis. Pm. gives the following definition of the term: 'Knowledge that is classified (pabheda-gata = put into a division) under the meaning (attha) as capable of effecting the explanation and definition of specific characteristics of the meaning class (meaning division) is called "attha-patisambhidha"; and so with the other three' (Pm 436). 'Discrimination' has been chosen for patisambhida because while it has the sense of 'division' it does not imply an opposite process as 'analysis' does. Also it may be questioned whether the four are well described as 'entirely logical': 'entirely epistomological' might perhaps be both less rigid and nearer; for they seem to cover four interlocking fields, namely: meanings of statements and effects of causes (etc.), statements of meanings and causes of effects (etc.),language as restricted to etymological rules of verbal expression, and clarity (or perspicuous inspiration) in marshalling the other three. L: In other words, both knowledge of paramattha dhammas and knowledge of concepts is the domain of this field. I'm sure you won't like this but what popped into my head was an academic career with a sotapanna receiving his phd and a professor finally gaining tenure as equivalent to arahantship. :)) At any rate it is a very high level of both teaching and learning. Also it might somewhat clarify things to relate the four discriminations (result, cause, language, and all) to the four satipatthanas (body, feeling, consciousness, and dhammas). It may answer the question what is satipatthana like for a sotapanna. Vism. XIV par 32: How is it developed? Now the things classed as aggregates, bases, elements, faculties, truths, dependent origination, etc., are the *soil* of this understanding, and the [first] two purifications, namely Purification of Virtue and Purification of Consciousness, are its *roots*, while the five purifications, namely, Purification of view, Purification of Overcoming Doubt, Purification by Knowledge and Vision of What is the Path and What is not the Path, Purification by Knowledge and Vision of the Way, and Purification by Knowledge and Vision, are the Trunk. Consequently one who is perfecting these should first fortify his knowledge by learning and questioning about those things that are the *soil* after he has perfected the two purifications that are the *roots*; then he can develop the five purifications that are the *trunk*. Larry 16304 From: Sarah Date: Wed Oct 16, 2002 10:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 10, Comm. To Sarah (and Suan) Dear Jim (& Suan), Bhikkhu Bodhi added a few comments to this thread on 'apilaapana' which he mentioned I was welcome to send to DSG. (I've added a few of Jim's comments at the end for those who may have forgotten what this is about.): ..... From Bhikkhu Bodhi =================== Dear Sarah and Jonothan, Here are a few comments relating to the pages you gave me from the Dhamma Study Group. (1) ‘apilaapana’: The corresponding word in the Sanskrit Abhidharma texts is ‘abhilaapana’, with a verb ‘abhilaapati’. This would mean ‘to address’, in the sense of reminding, which corresponds closely to sati’s meaning of memory; it also imples reinforcing one’s awareness of one’s present experience, and thus ties up with the sense of mindfulness. For a discussion of this problematic word in the two traditions, see the essay "The Scope of Sm.riti [= Sati] from Early Buddhism to the Sarvastivada Abhidharma," by Colette Cox, in Janet Gyatso, ed., In the Mirror of Memory: Reflections on Mindfulness and Remembrance in Indian and Tibetan Buddhism. This volume also contains an excellent paper by Rupert Gethin on the role of the Matikas in the formation of the Pali Abhidhamma, and Ven. Nyanaponika’s essay on memory taken from his Abhidhamma Studies. (2) The wording in the short sutta at AN IV 190 is problematic, but the meaning is fairly clear. The sutta is enumerating the benefits of learning the Dhamma well. The first benefit: Even though one may die with clouded mindfulness, if one is reborn in a deva-realm, the devas "who are happy there recite stanzas of Dhamma to him [to the one reborn there], and though his memory [or mindfulness, sati] arises slowly, he quickly attains excellence." The problem is ‘pi lapanti’ or ‘pilapanti’. On the first alternative, the ‘pi’, which normally means ‘also, even, although’, is hard to account for, as none of those meanings seems appropriate. If we take ‘pilapanti’ as involving an abridged prefix ‘api’, as Norman holds, I simply don’t know of such a prefix. However, I have no Pali resources with me, so I won’t discount such a possibility offhand. The Burmese reading in CSCD is clearly a normalization, perhaps based on the commentary. This practice of normalizing difficult readings is endemic in Burmese script editions and is fraught with danger. I much prefer the Sinhala script editions, esp. the older ones, which preserve difficult readings. One solution, highly conjectural, is to convert ‘api’ into ‘abhi’, thus yielding ‘abhilapanti’, "to recite," in the sense of reminding, which would fit the context well. --- Jim Anderson wrote: > > > > Recently, I was studying the Pali word apilaapana which is one of > the > > > terms used to define the characteristic of sati. It's usually > > > translated as non-floating which is based on taking it to be derived > > > from a + pilaapana (plaavana in Skt.) which agrees with the > > > commentaries but according to a research article by K.R. Norman in > the > > > Journal of the Pali Text Society, Vol. XII and with a sutta to back > it > > > up it's possible that the derivation is in fact api (a prefix) + > > > laapana with a meaning of reminding, remembering by reciting, > calling > > > to mind and the new Cone dictionary is following Norman on this > > > instead of the commentaries. 16305 From: Sarah Date: Wed Oct 16, 2002 10:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 10, Comm. -ekaayana (B.Bodhi) Dear all, Further comments by B.Bodhi in response to comments I made (which I can't find now) in reply to the quote Larry gave below: ***** B.Bodhi: (3) On ‘ekaayana’: Though I don’t have MLDB with me, I would assume that my note, which Sarah rejects, was preceded by a "perhaps" or "maybe". I don’t think I would make such a statement categorically, without qualifying it as hypothetical. In any case, ‘ekaayana’ cannot possibly mean "only," in the sense that Satipatthana is the only way, for the simple reason that one cannot derive such a meaning from eka + ayana (one + going). To my knowledge, the word is used in only one other context in the Nikayas. This is in MN 12, where the Buddha is describing his ability to foresee a person’s rebirth based on his present behaviour. It occurs in the similes, qualifying a path leading in a particular direction. The meaning required is that the path leads straight to that destination; it is a path that goes "in one way only." This is the meaning that fits the Satipatthana context too. Regardless of whether or not it is being contrasted with some alternative route, Satipatthana can easily be seen as going in one way, in one direction: straight towards the purification of beings, and so forth. By the way, Rupert Gethin (quite a bright and versatile young scholar in Pali studies) has a detailed discussion of ‘ekaayana’ in his The Buddhist Path to Awakening, which I recommended to you a couple of days ago. =========================================== --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Dear group, > > I've been comparing the footnotes from other translations of > Satipatthana Sutta. Here's an interesting one from B. Bodhi: > > "Though there is neither canonical nor commentarial basis for this view, > it might be maintained that satipatthana is called ekayana magga, the > direct path, to distinguish it from the approach to meditative > attainment that proceeds through the jhanas or brahmaviharas. While the > latter can lead to Nibbana, they do not do so necessarily but can lead > to sidetracks, whereas satipatthana leads invariably to the final goal." 16306 From: Date: Thu Oct 17, 2002 0:32am Subject: PTSM #5 Dear Nina and all, I am sorry for the long absence. I am far behind on my schedule, plus I have made couple of short weekend trips outside Bangkok. The countryside is very beautiful. I visited some of the old temples in the northern part of Thailand. The mural paintings in the temple are usually about the 10 parami jati of the Buddha. Some of them are pretty old, I can hardly see them. OK, let me update on the PTSM a little bit. ------------------------------------------------------------- Patisambhidamagga # 5 8) A_di_navan~ana 9) San.kharupek.khan~ana Matika: Adinavanana: panna in seeing the danger Sankharupekkhanana: panna in wishing to overcome, analysis, and in indifference. Atthakatha: Adinavannananuddesa: Bhayatupat.th.ne panna: panna in seeing danger in arising moment, sustaining moment, appearance (nimitta(sankharanimitta)), accumulation (ayuhana (tanha)), and being born (patisandhi) in new plane of existance. Bhayatopatthana refers to 1. Aramana, and 2. Panna in seeing danger. The atthakatha gives an analogy of one sees the burning hot and red charcoal and is aware of its danger. Then the commentary said that bhayatupatthananana(seeing danger), adinavanana(seeing disadvantage), and nibbidanana (disenchanted in nama/rupa, sankharadhamma) all have the same meaning. All sankhara, which can be classified in the senses of 3 planes (kama/rupa/arupa bhumi), 4 births (womb/egg/wet media/ just born like that), 5 destinations (hell, peta, animal, human being, and heaven) , 7 vinnanathiti (planes of patisandhicittas), 9 sattavasa( by plane of residence), appears to a person who develops bhaganupassananana by seeing the cessation of all sankhara as its object. One sees the past sankhara gone, the present sankhara is about to disintegrate, and the future sankhara will also be disintegrated as well. Once one sees the disadvantage of all sankhara, one is no longer enchanted in all sankhara. A.Sujin talked briefly about the 7 vinnanathiti and 9 sattavasa. Atthakathasankharanupekkhananuddesa: There are 3 sub-~nana mentioned here. Munchitukamyata~nana(panna in wishing to overcome, to get away from endless cycle), patisankhara~nana(panna in analysis), and santit.ath.ana~nana(panna in being neutral). It can be called munchitukamyatapatisankhasantithana~nana(all 3 pannas together). Upekkha here refers to panna cetasika while it is performing its function, being neutral and firm in knowing sankharadhamm(nama/rupa and its paccayas). The atthakatha said that that all 3 sub~nanas again, have the same meaning. The atthakatha gives a lot of analogies for the bhayatopatthana and sankharupekkhanana, e.g. like a deer is getting stuck in a trap, she always wants to get out. The trap is sankhara, after being trapped she knows the danger: bhaya, and for seeing advantage of getting out: munchitukamyata(sankharupekkha). The atthakatha then talks about anulomanana by refereeing to the word “anulomakhanti”, which refers to nana from kalapasammasana~nana – anulomanana (3rd-12th nana according to 16 nana level in visuddhimagga). All these 10 nanas have one of the tilakana (sankharadhamma) as its objects (anulomakhanti, en Pali). At the end of sankharanupekkhananuddesa section, the atthakathacharaya ( Ven.Mahanama) said that after manodvaravajjana, there can be 2, 3, or 4 cittas which have sankharadhamma as its arammana (from gotarabhu-palacitta moment, cittas have nibbana as their object). A.Supee pointed out that it is not consistent with visuddhimagga(VSM) and abhidhammathasangaha (ABDMS) and their subatthakatha. Because in the maggavithi, according to VSM and ABDMS, the pala citta arises 2 or 3 times (cannot be one), so if the anuloma cittas (refers to borikamma, uppachara, anuloma) in maggavithi can be only 2 or 3 moments, not 4. So there are some contradiction between atthakathas. In Visuddhimagga(which was written before satdhammapakasini_) also mentions about this controversy in some atthakathas before VSM was written. Next time, I will try to relay more on gotarabhunana, and magganana. I will try to sum up the correlation of the 7 visuddhi, 3 parinnakicca, pahanakicca, bhavanakicca, and sacchikiriyakicca, may be after the atthakatha of the magganaana. ----------------------------------------------- Let me follow up on your question from my last post. <> Num: A.Sujin mentioned this that at this level the nana is very weak, one can know what is nama or rupa but very breifly. The santati makes us see khandha as a kalapa. A.Supee added that to know just a single moment of the mind or rupa at a time is a nana of the Buddha, not even his great disciples. Best wishes. Num 16307 From: Sarah Date: Thu Oct 17, 2002 1:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 11, Comm Hi Larry, --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > This is what I am particularly interested in. All insight knowledges are > considered the domain of panna, rather than sanna or citta, correct? I'm > going to try to pull together as much as I can on panna this weekend but > as I recall Vism doesn't give much info. If you have any sources not > covered by Vism or CMA or "Cetasikas" they would be greatly appreciated. ...... (I'm also looking at another of your posts in which you quote from Vism XXII, 34.) As you suggest, insight knowledges reflect different levels of panna or right understanding, i.e vipassana knowledges. Panna means right understanding or right view and can be that accompanying moments of samatha development or satipatthana development (i.e. different objects, different understanding). When you said the Vism 'doesn't give much info' I was a little surprised. There are three sections: virtue, concentration and understanding. The second is all about samatha development and attainment of jhanas for which there is not even a start without panna. the third section is all about vipassana, development of insights and enlightenment. Again, no beginning without panna which in this case knows realities as they are. I'd go further and say the entire Visuddhimagga and all the Buddha's Teachings are about different phenomena or dhammas to be known and understood according to accumulations. In this sense, whatever we read is about the development of panna. When we read about the foundations of mindfulness, the objects to be known and the vipallasas (perversions) to be abandoned along the way (beauty, pleasure. permanence, self), the role of panna is to directly understand or know, not just to be 'analytical' as you suggest, though of course there has to be theoretical unerstanding of the objects initially. Sarah p.s. On yr qu of time and length of postings from Way, I'd probably suggest 'shorter segments and regular timing', but Jon also likes 'shorter & slower' like Nina. I think you'll have to just use your discretion and as to whether or when to give any pauses and we all appreciate your role in this regard. ===== 16308 From: rahula_80 Date: Thu Oct 17, 2002 1:03am Subject: Re: Vimuttattaa Hi, Can anyone show me grammatically, how one get "vimuttattaa" from "vimutta" ? I am just starting to learn Pali. So please show me step by step. Thanks, Rahula -------- I have been trying to understand it for some time. For example, in the post "Vimuttattaa" of mine, I wrote: >> Lance Cousins, wrote in Buddha-L: "So the first sentence corresponds to Sanskrit: vimuktatvaat sthitam and so on. There is no atta/aatman here at all; it is the ablative singular of the suffix tta = tva. Bhikkhu Bodhi is indeed vindicated. " // Now, I am just learning Pali. So please forgive my mistake. According to Pali Primer by Lily de Silva, Lesson 9 The suffix -tvaa is added to the root of the verb or verbal base with or sometimes without the connecting vowel -i- to form the gerung, absolutive or the indeclinable particle. So, shouldn't it be rendered, vimucitvaa, never vimuttattaa. (muc + i + tvaa)? Also, vimutta + tta = vimuttatta, NOT vimuttattaa. Right? If not, can you explain how vimuttattaa is derived? // << I just couldn't figure out how to get "vimuttattaa" from "vimutta". 16309 From: Sarah Date: Thu Oct 17, 2002 1:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Why did the Buddha meditate?and not ride horses Hi Azita, --- azita gill wrote: > > > hello all and esp. Sarah, I appreciate your > usually very clear comments, and the seemingly lge. > amounts of energy you put into dsg. ta muchly. ..... ta muchly to you too;-) ..... > < I relate to KenH, regarding sending mail, so > much goes round and round in my head, and that's as > far as it goes. ..... I think we all have obstacles on the path of posting- whether it be lack of time, injured wrist, limited internet, lack of computer, emotions, dyslexia, boredom, lack of good cheer or whatever;-( Hope you and Ken H know that you really encourage the rest of us when you do post and you both always give good reminders. If we all let our 'obstacles' prevent us from posting, there'd be no list..... ..... >However, this one seems quite clear > to me. The Buddha, like us, had accumulations, and > as you say, was an extraordinary being. We read > about his life just before he became the Buddha, how > he spent a long time doing austere practices, > meditation being a big part of that. After > enlightenment, he taught the ppl for many hours, but > when that was finished, he didn't have the > accumlations to go ride horses for example. ..... ;-) Hope Abby's horse-training in the Middle East is working out well. ..... >So he > went and did what he was good at - meditating - and as > someone wrote before, maybe that was a perfect way for > him to rest, to be refreshed for the next day's > teaching. I almost can't imagine how wise the Buddha > really was; and 'I' really want to be in the front row > when the next Buddha is around. .... ;-) It would be nice if we could book our seats, wouldn't it? ..... I also like Selamat's comment about the Buddha's continuous mindfulness and question about what people what kind of meditation people were referring to. . ..... Azita, I also liked your comments about Right Speech and refraining from letting the 'garbage' come 'tumbling out'. I know K.Sujin would then ask, however, what about when we keep quiet? Kusala or akusala? Of course it's better to keep quiet than to come out with a lot of dosa (aversion),for example, but better to know the problem is the dosa rather than the speaking out perhaps. Very much looking f/w to seeing you and others soon in Bkk. Sarah ====== > > patience, courage and good cheer, 16310 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Oct 17, 2002 2:38am Subject: Garbage removal Dear Group, I've looked back over the message archive, and I seem to be the main one that posts non-academically and often with emotions engaged, just discursive thoughts that are of concern probably only to me, I'll try to keep the garbage under control. metta, Christine I also liked your comments about Right Speech and refraining > from > letting the 'garbage' come 'tumbling out'. I know K.Sujin would then > ask, > however, what about when we keep quiet? Kusala or akusala? Of course > it's > better to keep quiet than to come out with a lot of dosa > (aversion) 16311 From: Sukinder Date: Thu Oct 17, 2002 2:51am Subject: RE: [dsg] Garbage removal Dear Christine, If I were to pick out one post of yours to reject based on being too self-concerned, it would be this one. I consider all your other posts as expressions of 'sharing' and learn a lot from all of them. For example just the latest one to Rob Ep. was one of the really good posts on dsg. :-) Best, Sukin -----Original Message----- From: christine_forsyth [mailto:cforsyth@v...] Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 4:38 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Garbage removal Dear Group, I've looked back over the message archive, and I seem to be the main one that posts non-academically and often with emotions engaged, just discursive thoughts that are of concern probably only to me, I'll try to keep the garbage under control. metta, Christine I also liked your comments about Right Speech and refraining > from > letting the 'garbage' come 'tumbling out'. I know K.Sujin would then > ask, > however, what about when we keep quiet? Kusala or akusala? Of course > it's > better to keep quiet than to come out with a lot of dosa > (aversion) 16312 From: Sarah Date: Thu Oct 17, 2002 3:11am Subject: RE: [dsg] Garbage removal Hi Chris & Sukin, --- Sukinder wrote: > Dear Christine, > > If I were to pick out one post of yours to reject based on being too > self-concerned, it would be this one. I consider all your other posts as > expressions of 'sharing' and learn a lot from all of them. For example > just the latest one to Rob Ep. was one of the really good posts on dsg. > :-) .... I agree with Sukin's comments. Even this one I now liked because it encouraged Sukin out of the woodwork;-)) You could try it more often. This isn't meant to be an academic list, but we all have different styles and ways of expression and learning - it makes it a lot more interesting, I think. Some find it helpful to analyse Pali terms, others relate far more easily to your examples from daily life and honest comments. I'm quite sure that Azita's post on garbage and my response had nothing to do with anything you've ever said/written or even to DSG in particular. Actually, my point was to suggest that when we keep quiet, there may be just as much akusala involved....biting the tongue with dosa, for example as I'm sure we all experience and as I certainly did in my class yesterday;-( So, Sukin, let's hear more 'sharing' from you and any further reflections on Chris' and Rob Ep's 'Sniper' posts...... Sarah ======= 16313 From: abhidhammika Date: Thu Oct 17, 2002 5:21am Subject: Plavati Means Crossing Over : Re : Way 10, Comm. To Sarah (and Suan) Dear Sarah, Jim, Nina, Robert Kirkpatrick, Bob Eddison, Bob Moult, and All How are you? Thank you, Sarah, for posting Bhikkhu Bodhi's comments on "plavanti". Sayadaw Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote the following. "The Burmese reading in CSCD is clearly a normalization, perhaps based on the commentary. This practice of normalizing difficult readings is endemic in Burmese script editions and is fraught with danger. I much prefer the Sinhala script editions, esp. the older ones, which preserve difficult readings." With due respect to the Sayadaw Bhikkhu Bodhi, I will have to disagree with him. The commentary's explanation of "Dhammapadaa plavanti" makes sense. In U Hout Sein's Pali-Myanmar Dictionary, the meanings of "palavati, plavati" include "To cross, to appear, to float". Currently, the Ten Capital Television has been showing a program called "Crossing Over With John Edward" at 7.30 p.m on Saturdays. The program is about contacting the people who passed away. The context of "Dhammapadaa plavanti" is also about what happened between the immediate past life and his or her rebirth in a new life, and afterwards. Please kindly view my literal translation of commentary explanantion of "Dhammapadaa plavanti". "Dhammapadaa plavantiiti antaraabhave nibbattamuµµhassatino, yepi pubbe sajjhaayamuulikaa vaacaaparicitabuddhavacanadhammaa, te sabbe pasanne aadaase chaayaa viya plavanti, paaka.taa hutvaa paññaayanti." Section 191, Sotaanugata Suttam, Catukkanipaata, Anguttara Nikaaya A.t.thakathaa. "All those that are the teachings of the Buddha thoroughly learnt by verbalization which had their root in repeated recitation in the previous life also cross over to the one with lost recollection taking place between the immediate past life and the present one, materialize by becoming clear and transparent like an image does in the clear mirror." Sayadaw Bhikkhu Bodhi also wrote the following. "One solution, highly conjectural, is to convert `api' into `abhi', thus yielding `abhilapanti', "to recite," in the sense of reminding, which would fit the context well." I found it very amazing for Sayadaw Bhikkhu Bodhi to prefer "Highly Conjectual" interpretation to the that of the standard commentaries and for him to describe Burmese script editions as being "fraught with danger" because they comform to the standard commentaries. Please kindly pass on my post to Sayadaw Bhikkhu Bodhi. With kind regards Suan http://www.bodhioloyg.org --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: Dear Jim (& Suan), Bhikkhu Bodhi added a few comments to this thread on 'apilaapana' which he mentioned I was welcome to send to DSG. (I've added a few of Jim's comments at the end for those who may have forgotten what this is about.): ..... From Bhikkhu Bodhi =================== Dear Sarah and Jonothan, Here are a few comments relating to the pages you gave me from the Dhamma Study Group. (1) `apilaapana': The corresponding word in the Sanskrit Abhidharma texts is `abhilaapana', with a verb `abhilaapati'. This would mean `to address', in the sense of reminding, which corresponds closely to sati's meaning of memory; it also imples reinforcing one's awareness of one's present experience, and thus ties up with the sense of mindfulness. For a discussion of this problematic word in the two traditions, see the essay "The Scope of Sm.riti [= Sati] from Early Buddhism to the Sarvastivada Abhidharma," by Colette Cox, in Janet Gyatso, ed., In the Mirror of Memory: Reflections on Mindfulness and Remembrance in Indian and Tibetan Buddhism. This volume also contains an excellent paper by Rupert Gethin on the role of the Matikas in the formation of the Pali Abhidhamma, and Ven. Nyanaponika's essay on memory taken from his Abhidhamma Studies. (2) The wording in the short sutta at AN IV 190 is problematic, but the meaning is fairly clear. The sutta is enumerating the benefits of learning the Dhamma well. The first benefit: Even though one may die with clouded mindfulness, if one is reborn in a deva-realm, the devas "who are happy there recite stanzas of Dhamma to him [to the one reborn there], and though his memory [or mindfulness, sati] arises slowly, he quickly attains excellence." The problem is `pi lapanti' or `pilapanti'. On the first alternative, the `pi', which normally means `also, even, although', is hard to account for, as none of those meanings seems appropriate. If we take `pilapanti' as involving an abridged prefix `api', as Norman holds, I simply don't know of such a prefix. However, I have no Pali resources with me, so I won't discount such a possibility offhand. The Burmese reading in CSCD is clearly a normalization, perhaps based on the commentary. This practice of normalizing difficult readings is endemic in Burmese script editions and is fraught with danger. I much prefer the Sinhala script editions, esp. the older ones, which preserve difficult readings. One solution, highly conjectural, is to convert `api' into `abhi', thus yielding `abhilapanti', "to recite," in the sense of reminding, which would fit the context well. --- Jim Anderson wrote: > > > > Recently, I was studying the Pali word apilaapana which is one of > the > > > terms used to define the characteristic of sati. It's usually > > > translated as non-floating which is based on taking it to be derived > > > from a + pilaapana (plaavana in Skt.) which agrees with the > > > commentaries but according to a research article by K.R. Norman in > the > > > Journal of the Pali Text Society, Vol. XII and with a sutta to back > it > > > up it's possible that the derivation is in fact api (a prefix) + > > > laapana with a meaning of reminding, remembering by reciting, > calling > > > to mind and the new Cone dictionary is following Norman on this > > > instead of the commentaries. 16314 From: Sarah Date: Thu Oct 17, 2002 5:51am Subject: Comments or posts for B.Bodhi Dear All, B.Bodhi will be back in Hong Kong (just for2 days) in 2 weeks time. I'll gladly pass by hand any posts which I think may be of interest to him and of course, any like Suan’s for his attention. One member sent some questions off-list, but unless there is anything of a particularly personal nature, I’d rather just pass on DSG messages/questions and then it’s entirely up to him whether he wishes to add comments (just like for us) and there isn’t any burden or obligation. Also, we can then all share any responses as we do from each other’s posts. (The papers I gave him this week were just ones I thought he might be interested to look at, not requests or questions for him.) If anyone wishes to have any particular past posts shown to him, pls indicate the archives number to me (off-list perhaps), so I can print it out as well. In any case, pls.expect a delay. He doesn’t wish to receive these by email and I was asked not to pass on his email address either. I have two more posts from him to f/w to the list which I’ll do tomorrow probably. Sarah p.s Frank- I passed on your appreciative post ============================================== 16315 From: robmoult Date: Thu Oct 17, 2002 6:47am Subject: Re: Garbage removal Hi Christine, I've been rather silent lately... incredibly busy. Please don't stop your posts or change your style. I like it. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, > > I've looked back over the message archive, and I seem to be the main > one that posts non-academically and often with emotions engaged, > just discursive thoughts that are of concern probably only to me, > I'll try to keep the garbage under control. > > metta, > Christine > > I also liked your comments about Right Speech and refraining > > from > > letting the 'garbage' come 'tumbling out'. I know K.Sujin would > then > > ask, > > however, what about when we keep quiet? Kusala or akusala? Of > course > > it's > > better to keep quiet than to come out with a lot of dosa > > (aversion) 16316 From: robmoult Date: Thu Oct 17, 2002 7:24am Subject: [dsg] Re: subtle rupas Hi Nina, Sorry for the delay in responding. Life is a bit hectic right now. I really appreciate your reply. I agree that it doesn't make sense to try and experience all paramattha dhammas. I am still not clear on how the rupas jivitindriya, masculinity or feminity can be considered "produced rupas" (i.e. suitable for practice of insight). What is the object if it is not a concept and we are not looking at "indirect effects" such as heat from jivitindriya? If we are looking at "indirect effects", then what are the "indirect effects" of masculinity and femininity? My assumption is that the object of insight which shows the heart base is the existence of cittas (not the cittas themselves). Isn't this an "indirect effect"? I am still trying to get my mind around the idea that Satipatthana is not meditation, but something that could/should be part of every moment. Would it be correct to call Satipatthana a "perspective"? I also have an unrelated question. In Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary, under the entry for "Sankhara", it says that there are three types of sankhara; demeritorious (arises only in Kamavacara), meritorious (arises in Kamavacara or Rupavacara) and imperturbable (arises only in Arupavacara). Can I say that demerititorious is equivalent to akusala? Certainly a person in the 5th Jhana must continue to generate kamma, so this implies that imperturbable is a special class of kusala. What makes it special? Thanks, Rob M :-) 16317 From: Frank Kuan Date: Thu Oct 17, 2002 7:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Comments or posts for B.Bodhi Thanks for passing along the posts Sarah. B.Bodhi rocks! It almost makes me doubt the efficacy of kamma to hear about his affliction with headaches. Does he still reside in Sri Lanka in light of his reduced role for BPS? If it's somewhere in the states, I'd like to pay a short visit and give my regards and express appreciation in person sometime. -fk 16318 From: Derick W. Winkworth Date: Thu Oct 17, 2002 7:56am Subject: Pali question Ok so I cross-posted... I am looking to translate a latin derived name into Pali. My daughter's name is Miranda which actually has a number of different meanings, but it they pretty much boil down to: "Admirable Beauty", and "One who is loved." I was hoping to find a Pali / old Magadhi equivalent. Second I was looking at www.ancientscripts.com and thought I might be able to render the translation above into Brahmi script, which King Asoka used on his pillars. However, if someone has a better or more appropriate suggestion (a script more commonly associated with pali texts), please let me know. Any help would be appreciated. This is fairly off-topic I'm guessing but, this would be the place to go for help with Pali... D. 16319 From: abhidhammika Date: Thu Oct 17, 2002 9:00am Subject: Re: Pali question: To Derick Dear Derick How are you? The exact Pali terms for "Admirable Beauty", and "One who is loved" are "Abyaasekam" or "Asecanam" each of which means one who pleases the mind and the eyes. Other possible female names in Pali are Manju, Kalyaanii, and Sobhanii, all of which means goodness and beauty. With kind regards, Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Derick W. Winkworth" wrote: Ok so I cross-posted... I am looking to translate a latin derived name into Pali. My daughter's name is Miranda which actually has a number of different meanings, but it they pretty much boil down to: "Admirable Beauty", and "One who is loved." I was hoping to find a Pali / old Magadhi equivalent. Second I was looking at www.ancientscripts.com and thought I might be able to render the translation above into Brahmi script, which King Asoka used on his pillars. However, if someone has a better or more appropriate suggestion (a script more commonly associated with pali texts), please let me know. Any help would be appreciated. This is fairly off-topic I'm guessing but, this would be the place to go for help with Pali... D. 16320 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 17, 2002 10:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] ekayana Hi Larry, I have a go at some of your Qu, but not all. I am glad this subject is discussed. op 16-10-2002 01:44 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Why teach this sutta? because of the ability of the Kuru to take in deep > doctine. The Kuru are happy, with healthy mind and body (due to perfect > climate) and have the power of knowledge. QUESTION: what is "power of > knowledge"? N: I would think: they had accumulated the ability of understanding. L: QUESTION: what does "having set up the subject of meditation, in > arahantship, in 21 places" mean? N: Could it be: in 21 locations in Kuru? >L:Kuru were earnest in application of satipatthana to their daily life. > COMMENT: not just secluded meditation. N: You said it. L: There was social prssure for everyone to do it, even servants, no > useless talk at gathering places. COMMENT: it was a practice, not just > an activity that may or may not arise. N: You mean by practice: development again and again? That is correct. L: Those who didn't practice were told, "Your life is shameful; though you > live you are as if dead." > > Ekayana = single way, not double. QUESTION: Does this imply that samatha > and vipassana go together? or that there is one "way" in the 4 > arousings? N: Samatha and vipassana should not be separated. They are part of the eightfold Path. Samatha can be of the degree of jhana but not necessarily for all people. L: Ekayana = going alone. This means without companions, abandoning the > crowd and withdrawn from craving through tranquility of mind. COMMENT: > Tranquility is definitly a factor in satipatthana and it is > characterized as aloneness. N: Remember the sutta texts on craving as a mate. You take lobha everywhere, also to lonely places. The monk who is going to develop jhana should be alone. That is included in the four Applications. Everything in any kind of life for all types of persons is included. L: Ekayana = way of the one, i.e., the Buddha, because he creates it; it > exists only in his doctrine-and-discipline. "Only in this > doctine-and-discipline is the 8-fold way to be found." COMMENT: 8-fold > way is equated with satipatthana as ekayana. > > Ekayana = goes to the one, i.e., nibbana. Nibbana is without a second in > not having any accompanying quality such as desire. This means, "Truth > is one; it is without a second." > > When arousing of mindfulness is mentioned the 8-fold path is implied. > QUESTION: Does this mean that when satipatthana is practiced the entire > 8-fold path is practiced? N: No, usually the fivefold, sometimes sixfold. The three abstinences arise together when the Path is lokuttara, then it is eightfold. > L: Ekayana does NOT in this sutta mean one goes to nibanna only once. The > way that is described here is repeated many times. > "In this instruction the earlier part of the path is intended." Earlier > = mundane (lokiya). N: Yes. L:This is because it is repeated many times for up to > 7 years. COMMENT: The supramundane path (lokuttara magga) is the goal > this path leads to. N: What about countless lives instead of seven years? Taking into consideration our accumulated ignorance and wrong view? > L In what sense is it a 'way'? It is a way in that it goes toward nibbana > and it is the way one _should_ go toward nibbana. N: Yes L: The elders of old were not envious and did not go about holding up only > what they liked. They took up what was rational and gave up what was > not. COMMENT: Elders can be wrong. Reason settles the disagreement. N: although Culla Summa was a teacher, he was humble and openminded. He saw that his pupil was right. >L: The preliminary part of the way of mindfulness is called the only way. > Preliminary (mundane) part = 8-fold path, 4 truths, & dispassion which > is the best possession of the wise. > > "Walk along that way so that you may confound death and put an end to > suffering." N: See, it leads to the cessation of dukkha, it is the eightfold Path. Thank you very much, Larry. Nina. > > 16321 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 17, 2002 10:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] ekayana Dear Jinavamsa, op 15-10-2002 22:45 schreef jinavamsa op jinavamsa@h...: > I wonder that if only Buddhas teach this teaching, then > what are other people doing when they teach this teaching? > I see that the "one way" (ekaayana) is called the way of > the one (or of the best or of the Buddha), but does that > imply here that only a buddha/Buddha can relay this to > others? N:Only Buddhas teach satipatthana, the way leading to the end of dukkha. When others have heard this teaching they can also explain it, depending on the degree of accumulated wisdom. Someone who has attained enlightenment is the best teacher. J: I see a variety of renderings of ekaayana, or > interpretations of why this way is called the one way, > such as that one must walk it oneself, that it goes in > only direction (like a one-way street) or to one > destination, ... > I am wondering about the teaching of Culla Naaga to his > teacher Culla Summa. esp. the quotations there from > the Pa.tisambhidaa Magga. N: The footnote says that this citation is not found in the Pa.tisambhidaa Magga. But it is clear that satipatthana has as object conditioned nama and rupa. When panna has further developed through satipatthana it can become lokuttara panna. Nina. 16322 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 17, 2002 10:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] The D.C. Sniper Dear Rob Ep, Thank you very much for your post, it is so actual, daily life. We can live the moment more fully in understanding that no matter how dangerous a situation is, there are nama and rupa to be understood. But to follow this up is of course difficult. There is anxiety, unpleasant feeling, thinking about situations, and they are conditioned namas. Nina. op 16-10-2002 18:15 schreef Robert Epstein op epsteinrob@Y...: Yes, the sniper attacks are 'right around the > corner' for all D.C. folk. > > It is quite disconcerting, BUT luckily for a Buddhist type person it can be > used > as a reminder of both impermanence and the inherent insecurity and lack of > control > that this reality has. >> > I don't want to underplay the tension that this situation creates, only that > the > teachings are helpful in urging me to 'embrace' the situation and use it to be > more fully present in the moment, and live the moment rather than run away > from > it. 16323 From: jinavamsa Date: Thu Oct 17, 2002 3:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ekayana hello Nina and all, thank you for your reply to my questions. When you say that only Buddhas teach satipatthana while others explain it, do you mean that only Buddhas introduce the practice in its original presentation (for a given age) and that others are following that initial presentation? When you mention that satipatthana has as object conditioned nama and rupa, what is its object when the dhamma arising is an unconditioned dhamma? Does that or can you link that with the original discussion between Culla Naaga and his teacher Culla Summa, even if the quotation in question is not to be found (pace the citation) in the Patisambhida? I was trying to understand the points being made in the passage of the cmy. Thank you for all clarifications and help here, Jinavamsa 16324 From: Date: Thu Oct 17, 2002 4:34pm Subject: Way 13, Comm. "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html Commentary continued for: "for the destruction of suffering and grief" And then there is the story of the elder Pitamalla who in the time he was a layman took the pennon for wrestling in three kingdoms. He came to Tambapanni Isle, had audience of the king and received royal assistance. Once while going through the entrance to the Screened Sitting Hall he heard the following passage from the "Not-yours" chapter of Scripture: "Material form, o bhikkhus, is not yours; renounce it. That renunciation will, for a long time, be for your welfare and happiness." And he thought: "Neither material form, indeed, nor feeling is one's own," and making just that thought a goad, he renounced the world. At the Great Minister, the Maha Vihara, at Anuradhapura, he was, in due course, given the lower ordination and the higher. When he had mastered the two Codes of Discipline [Dve Matika], he went to the Gavaravaliya Shrine with thirty other bhikkhus and did the duty of the recluse. While meditating in the open at night there once, he was moving on his knees on the ambulatory when his feet were unable to carry him, and a hunter mistaking him for a deer struck him with a spear. The elder removed the spear which had gone deep into the body and, stopping the wound with a wad of grass, sat down on a flat stone. Making of his misfortune an opportunity for setting energy afoot, he developed insight and attained arahantship with analytical knowledge. After he had reached the state of arahantship, in order to apprise his fellow-bhikkhus of his achievement, he made a sign by clearing his throat and uttered this saying of joy at final liberation from suffering: The world of the Fully Awakened Man, the Chief, Holder of Right Views in all the world is this: Give up this form, disciples; it is not yours. Fleeting truly are component things, Ruled by laws of growth and decay; What is produced, to dissolution swings; Happy it is when things at rest do stay. Then those fellow-monks of the Elder Pitamalla who had come to see him said: "Reverend Sir, if the Buddha were living he would have expressed his approval of your effort, by stretching out his hand over the ocean and stroking your head." [Tika] Three kingdoms = Pandu, Cola, Gola. Because he was in the habit of carrying a yellow pennon about his body and also because he adorned himself with that pennon when taking part in wrestling matches he was well-known as Pitamalla, the yellow wrestler. After his renunciation of the world too, he was known as the Elder Yellow Wrestler. He came to Tambapanni Isle -- Ceylon -- having got the information that wrestlers were honored and hospitably received in the island. So, in this manner, this way is conducive to the destruction of suffering of those like the Elder Tissa. 16325 From: Date: Thu Oct 17, 2002 4:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ekayana Hi all, I read Rupert Gethin's account of ekayana magga in "The Buddhist Path to Awakening" and one point that we missed is concerning the "single, not double" remark in the commentary. This refers to a forked path and its attendant doubt. Satipattthana overcomes doubt and leads to the end of doubt because it is a single path (ekayana). Gethin ties this in with the 'doubt' concerning whether this instruction is a mixed path (lokya and lokuttara). His point being because there was doubt that was further evidence that this is a lokiya (mundane) path. Larry 16326 From: Date: Thu Oct 17, 2002 4:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 13, Comm. Hi all, This section gives an indication of the relathionship between satipatthana and 'analytical knowledge' (patisambhida nana). I wonder if we are placing too much emphasis on the panna that accompanies satipatthana. Maybe panna should be considered to be a result of satipatthana and more closely associated with patisambhida nana. Discerning whether a breath is long or short is surely not panna. Any clarification? Larry 16327 From: Jim Anderson Date: Thu Oct 17, 2002 10:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ekayana Dear Larry & Nina, > L: QUESTION: what does "having set up the subject of meditation, in > > arahantship, in 21 places" mean? > N: Could it be: in 21 locations in Kuru? I think Soma's translation of the line here is not very clear. The twenty-one places refer to the 21 meditation subjects (kamma.t.thaana-s, lit. workplaces) in the Satipa.t.thaana Sutta. These are the 14 subjects (including the 9 cemetery ones) for the contemplation of body, one each for feelings and mind, and five for the contemplation of dhammas -- totalling 21. This is according to the subcommentary which also explains "the subject of meditation" regarding arahantship to be the last one on the four truths (catusaccakamma.t.t.haana). Best wishes, Jim 16328 From: Sarah Date: Fri Oct 18, 2002 0:02am Subject: Themes, Dirt-washer, Refinement of the Mind, Gold-Refiner Dear All, The topic of translations of AN came up with B.Bodhi and I believe I jumped to a couple of wrong conclusions in an old post with regard to a translation by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. I need to introduce B.Bodhi’s comments a little first. A long time ago,In the following post: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m5226.html I was having a discussion with Howard and Mike N about a sutta in Angutara Nikaya - in B. Bodhi’s ‘Numerical Discourses, this is ‘the Refinement of the Mind-1’, p.72. It is a sutta about the ‘removing of impurities’. I was looking at this and also at the PTS translation by Woodward ,‘The Gold-Refiner’ and Thanissaro Bhikkhu’s transl http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an03-103.html I realise now that I made a mistake (thanks to B.Bodhi’s comments) and that Thanissaro’s translation (Nimitta Sutta - Themes) should actually have been compared to ‘the Refinement of the Mind-11’, p.74 or to the second part of the PTS transl. Thanissaro Bhikkhu’s translation of the first sutta, he titles “Pansadhovaka Sutta-The Dirt-Washer’ and it can be found at: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an03-100-1.html Apologies for any past or present confusion! Sarah ********** Bhikkhu Bodhi’s comments to me: ======================== (4) Thanissaro Bhikkhu is NOT guilty of rearranging the text of the Anguttara Nikaya sutta you sent me. The fault is with the PTS edition. The editor has joined two suttas that are distinct in other editions and are clearly different texts. In the PTS translation, the break should come between para. x and para. xi on p.235. The second might be called ‘nimitta’ and thus TB’s rendering "Themes" can be justified. The suttas of SN and AN don’t really have proper titles. The titles in modern editions are taken from the summary verses at the end of each group of suttas, but these are only mnemonic words. Moreover, the summary verses sometimes differ from one textual tradition to another, and this would lead to different titles in different traditions. The Burmese CS edition tends to expand the title to make it more meaningful (an approach I also follow in my translations). 16329 From: rahula_80 Date: Fri Oct 18, 2002 0:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Comments or posts for B.Bodhi Hi Frank, > Does he still reside in Sri Lanka in light of his > reduced role for BPS? If it's somewhere in the states, > I'd like to pay a short visit and give my regards and > express appreciation in person sometime. According to http://www.bodhimonastery.net/ , Bhikkhu Bodhi had retired as President and Editor of Buddhist Publication Society in 2002. He will be the President of Bodhi Monastery and will be residing in the monastery. Rahula. 16330 From: Sarah Date: Fri Oct 18, 2002 0:33am Subject: B.Bodhi's comments on Buddhaghosa's Bahiranidana Dear All, I had mentioned in passing to B.Bodhi that I was hoping one day there would be an English translation of the Samantapasadika (Buddhagosa’s commentary on the Vinaya) and he showed a little surprise at my interest. I mentioned I had written some posts based on the Bahiranidana which is Buddhaghosa’s introduction to this commentary to look at the early origins/authenticity of the Abhidhamma and Commentaries. The first part in the series I wrote is: Samantaasadikahttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/9464 Some of the others can be found in U.P. under ‘Vinaya’. Sarah ===== These are B.Bodhi’s comments to me: =========================== (5) Regarding Sarah’s long quotations from the Introduction to the Vinaya Commentary: Such accounts have to be taken with deep reservations, as they are obviously intended to justify established traditions and cannot in all respects stand up to rigorous historical criticism. Such accounts should be balanced by consulting modern critical studies that range over all the available sources. See for example Etienne Lamotte’s account of the first council as well as his comparisons of the different early recensions of the Tripitaka (in his important but partly dated -History of Indian Buddhism). See too A.K. Warder’s Indian Buddhism and Rupert Gethin’s (again), The Foundations of Buddhism. Such comparative studies bring to the fore a core of historical truth that would be difficult to dispute, as well as variations among the early schools that bring into focus their own specialized concerns. Malalasekera’s interpretation of how the commentaries were established at the first council is fair and reasonable, and I would be in substantial agreement with it. The commentaries that Ac. Buddhaghosa edited were clearly the products of several centuries of elaboration, closed perhaps in the first century A.C. Important work in this area, particularly regarding the Nikayas and early Abhidharma, has been done by our Master Ren Chun’s teacher, the 97-year-old Master Yin Shun, but his work is all in Chinese and I have only picked up fragments of the conclusions he has reached through painstaking research into the various traditions (including the Pali texts, which he has studied in their translations into Chinese done by Japanese scholars in the 1930s). 16331 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Fri Oct 18, 2002 1:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Garbage removal Dear Sarah, I just sent off a fairly long reply to this post, but for some reason it got lost. :-( So this one is just an acknowledgement OK?! Hope you don't mind. metta, Sukin --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Hi Chris & Sukin, > > --- Sukinder wrote: > Dear Christine, > > > > If I were to pick out one post of yours to reject based on being too > > self-concerned, it would be this one. I consider all your other posts as > > expressions of 'sharing' and learn a lot from all of them. For example > > just the latest one to Rob Ep. was one of the really good posts on dsg. > > :-) > .... > I agree with Sukin's comments. Even this one I now liked because it > encouraged Sukin out of the woodwork;-)) You could try it more often. > > This isn't meant to be an academic list, but we all have different styles > and ways of expression and learning - it makes it a lot more interesting, > I think. Some find it helpful to analyse Pali terms, others relate far > more easily to your examples from daily life and honest comments. I'm > quite sure that Azita's post on garbage and my response had nothing to do > with anything you've ever said/written or even to DSG in particular. > > Actually, my point was to suggest that when we keep quiet, there may be > just as much akusala involved....biting the tongue with dosa, for example > as I'm sure we all experience and as I certainly did in my class > yesterday;-( > > So, Sukin, let's hear more 'sharing' from you and any further reflections > on Chris' and Rob Ep's 'Sniper' posts...... > > Sarah > ======= > 16332 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Oct 18, 2002 9:14am Subject: Meditative Experience of Nibanna Dear Friends, Here are more tidbits about Nibbana, and experiencing Nibbana. From AN (Numerical Discourses of the Buddha, B. Bodhi, 184, and 185) The Meditative Experince of Nibbana (X, 6) Once the Veneral Anada approached the Blessed One and asked: "Can it be, Lord, that a monk attains to such a concentration of mind that in earth he is not percipient of earth, nor in water is he percipient of water, not in fire ... air .. the base of the infinity of space ... the base of the infinity of consciousness ... the base of nothingness ... the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception is he percipient of all these; nor is he percipient of this world or a world beyond - but yet he is a percipient?" "Yes, Ananada, there can be such a concentration of mind that in earth a monk is not percipient of earth ... nor is he percipient of this world or a world beyond - but yet he is percipient." "But how, Lord, can a monk attain to such a concentration of mind?" "Here, Ananda, the monk is percipient thus: 'This is the peaceful, this is the sublime, namely, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbana.' It is in this way, Ananda, that a monk may attain to such a concentration of mind." The Meditative Experience of Nibbana - II (X, 7) Once the Venerable Ananda approached the Venerable Sariputta and asked: "Can it be, friend Sariputta, that a monk attains to such a concentration of mind that in earth he is not percipient of earth ... (as above) ... nor is he percipient of this world or a world beyond - but yet he is percipient?" "Yes, friend Ananada, he can attain to such a concentration of mind." "But how, friend Sariputta, can a monk attain to such a concentration of mind?" "Once, friend Ananda, I lived here in Savatthi, in the Dark Forest. There I attained to such a concentration of mind that in earth I was not percipient of earth ... (as above) ... nor was I percipient of this world or a world beyond - and yet I was percipient." "But what was the Venerable Sariputta percipient of on that occasion?" "Nibbana is cessation of becoming, Nibbana is cessation of becoming" - one such perception arose in me and another such perception ceased. Just as, friend Ananda, from a fire of faggots one flame arises and another flame ceases, even so, 'Nibbana is cessation of becoming, Nibbana is cessation of becoming' - one such perception arose in me and another such perception ceased. On that occasion, friend, I perceived that Nibbana is the cessation of becoming. kom 16333 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 18, 2002 10:03am Subject: third insight knowledge Dear Num, Rob K, Sarah, Jon, Num, I am delighted with your Patis. magga, and will add more english notes. I repeat my q and Num's answer, which I find extremely helpful. <> Num: A.Sujin mentioned this that at this level the nana is very weak, one can know what is nama or rupa but very briefly. The santati makes us see khandha as a kalapa. A.Supee added that to know just a single moment of the mind or rupa at a time is a nana of the Buddha, not even his great disciples. Nina: I have to ponder about this more, and I believe that I have not yet completely understood this. Could Rob K bring it up again with A. Sujin, I want to hear more. Maybe Jon and Sarah can add something? It teaches me anyway to try less to know one rupa or one nama. Even the third stage of insight is so coarse, let alone when one merely begins. Characteristics appear now and then, such as hardness, but we should not think that we know the rupa of solidity. Many moments of hardness or of feeling arise and fall away, and *we* should not try to have precise understanding of just one reality at a time. There can be a subtle trying. This is an important point. Nina. 16334 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 18, 2002 10:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] PTSM #5 and a Question. Dear Num and all, I shall add some points. op 17-10-2002 09:32 schreef sinsk@m... op sinsk@m...: Num: Patisambhidamagga # 5 > 8) A_di_navan~ana > 9) San.kharupek.khan~ana > > Matika: > Adinavanana: panna in seeing the danger > Sankharupekkhanana: panna in wishing to overcome, analysis, and in > indifference. >Nina: Compare the English Path of Discrimination, p. 59-61. And the Visuddhimagga, XXI, 35 and following: Knowledge of Contemplation of Danger. Num: Atthakatha: > Adinavannananuddesa: Bhayatupat.th.ne panna: panna in seeing danger > in arising moment, sustaining moment, appearance (nimitta(sankharanimitta)), > accumulation (ayuhana (tanha)), and being born (patisandhi) in new plane of > existance. Nina: See also Vis. XXI, 38. It states that ayuhana, accumulation, is the kamma that is the cause of future rebirth-linking. These again are examples that insight leads to more detachment from nama and rupa, but not at the beginning stages. Num: Bhayatopatthana refers to 1. Aramana, and 2. Panna in seeing danger. > The atthakatha gives an analogy of one sees the burning hot and red charcoal > and > is aware of its danger. > Then the commentary said that bhayatupatthananana(seeing danger), > adinavanana(seeing disadvantage), and nibbidanana (disenchanted in nama/rupa, > sankharadhamma) all have the same meaning. > All sankhara, which can be classified in the senses of 3 planes > (kama/rupa/arupa bhumi), 4 births (womb/egg/wet media/ just born like that), 5 > destinations (hell, peta, animal, human being, and heaven) , 7 vinnanathiti > (planes > of patisandhicittas), 9 sattavasa( by plane of residence), appears to a person > who > develops bhaganupassananana by seeing the cessation of all sankhara as its > object. One sees the past sankhara gone, the present sankhara is about to > disintegrate, and the future sankhara will also be disintegrated as well. > Once one sees the disadvantage of all sankhara, one is no longer enchanted in > all > sankhara. > A.Sujin talked briefly about the 7 vinnanathiti and 9 sattavasa. > Atthakathasankharanupekkhananuddesa: There are 3 sub-~nana > mentioned here. Munchitukamyata~nana(panna in wishing to overcome, to get > away from endless cycle), patisankhara~nana(panna in analysis), and > santit.ath.ana~nana(panna in being neutral). It can be called > munchitukamyatapatisankhasantithana~nana(all 3 pannas together). Nina: English, see Path of D. p. 62: Understanding of desire for deliverance, of reflexion (patisankhara) and of composure (equanimity, upekkha), santit.ath.ana ~nana. The last one is, I believe, the same as sankharupekkha, equanimity of Formations (sankharas). English text, Ch IX: where it is indicated that they are the same in meaning. Also in the Co this stated. Vis. XXI, 47, about the seventh stage, Knowledge of Reflexion, patisankhana ~naana, <...in order to be delivered from the whole field of formations he again discerns those same formations, attributing to them the three characteristics by knowledge of contemplation of reflexion.> Here we see that not in the beginning, but later on one can begin to penetrate more the three characteristics. Num: Upekkha here > refers to panna cetasika while it is performing its function, being neutral > and firm > in knowing sankharadhamm(nama/rupa and its paccayas). The atthakatha said > that that all 3 sub~nanas again, have the same meaning. > The atthakatha gives a lot of analogies for the bhayatopatthana and > sankharupekkhanana, e.g. like a deer is getting stuck in a trap, she always > wants > to get out. The trap is sankhara, after being trapped she knows the danger: > bhaya, > and for seeing advantage of getting out: munchitukamyata(sankharupekkha). > The atthakatha then talks about anulomanana by referring to the > word “anulomakhanti ", which refers to nana from kalapasammasana~nana – > anulomanana (3rd-12th nana according to 16 nana level in visuddhimagga). All > these 10 nanas have one of the tilakana (sankharadhamma) as its objects > (anulomakhanti, in Pali). Nina: Question: Is there a connection with khanti, patience, or does it have another meaning here? kalapasammasama ~nana is the third stage; understanding the arising and falling away of groups of realities. It is coarse, but one begins to see impermanence. It is already under anuloma: adaptation, but a beginning. The last adaptation knowledge precedes gotrabhu, change of lineage, when nibbana is the object, but when the citta is not yet lokuttara. I see in the Co a reference to the Patthana, that anuloma is a condition for gotrabhu by way of contiguity-condition, anantara paccaya. I read further on in the Co: I like to read the role of the cetasikas in the development. When there is more understanding confidence and determination become stronger. With appreciation, Nina. 16335 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 18, 2002 10:03am Subject: Perfections, Ch 6, Energy, no. 7 Perfections, Ch 6, Energy, no. 7 We read in the ³Kindred Sayings²(V, Mahå-vagga, Book IV, Kindred Sayings on the Faculties, Ch I, §8, Point of view) about the five controlling faculties, indriyas: Monks, there are five controlling faculties. What five? The controlling faculty of faith, of energy, of sati, of concentration and of paññå... These are dhammas that are rulers or leaders, indriyas, but they arise at the moment of satipaììhåna which considers with awareness the characteristics of realities. We read in the above quoted sutta about the controlling faculty of faith: But from what point of view, monks, should the controlling faculty of faith be regarded? From that of the four limbs of Streamwinning... When kusala citta arises it must be accompanied by saddhå cetasika, confidence or faith. There are many degrees of kusala citta. The faculty of saddhå, faith or confidence, is a leader with regard to its specific function. This will be clearer when we consider the four limbs or factors of streamwinning: unshakable confidence in the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha and the virtues (síla) which are agreeable to the ariyans. Someone may study the Dhamma and have confidence in listening to the Dhamma, but his confidence may not be firm, it may be unstable, uncertain. If he has no right understanding of realities and if he does not know the right practice for the realization of the four noble Truths, he may easily become confused. Confidence which is unshakable and firm, without confusion, and a condition for not deviating from the right Path, is the confidence of the ariyan, confidence which is a factor of streamwinning. It is the unshakable confidence in the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha and the virtues of the ariyans. We read further on in the above quoted sutta: And from what point of view, monks, should the controlling faculty of viriya, energy, be regarded? From that of the four supreme efforts. There are four supreme efforts (sammå-ppadhåna): the effort to avoid the akusala dhammas which have not yet arisen the effort to overcome the akusala dhammas which have arisen the effort to develop kusala dhammas which have not yet arisen the effort to maintain kusala dhammas which have arisen, not to let them decline, to further develop them, to cause them to increase and to reach completion. Viriya which is a faculty, indriya, and has become a ³leader², must has been accumulated very gradually so that it could become a faculty. The controlling faculty of viriya should be regarded from the point of view of the four supreme efforts. We can notice ourselves whether we have viriya which only begins to develop and is still weak, or whether it is already right effort: the effort which avoids akusala not yet arisen, overcomes akusala already arisen, the effort to cause the arising of kusala which has not yet arisen. The kusala dhamma which has not yet arisen refers to samatha and vipassanå and to the path, magga, the fruition, phala, and nibbåna(5 ). Samatha and vipassanå are developed together with satipatthåna and reach completion through satipatthåna, they should not be separated from each other. Effort is necessary to maintain the kusala dhammas which have arisen, not to let them decline, to further develop them, to cause them to increase and reach completion. Footnote 5. See the Commentary to the ³Book of Analysis², the ³Dispeller of Delusion² II, Ch 8, 292. 16336 From: Date: Fri Oct 18, 2002 5:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] PTSM #5 and a Question. Nina: >>< Adinavannananuddesa: Bhayatupat.th.ne panna: panna in seeing danger > in arising moment, sustaining moment, appearance (nimitta (sankharanimitta )), > accumulation (ayuhana (tanha)), and being born (patisandhi) in new plane of > existance. Nina: See also Vis. XXI, 38. It states that ayuhana, accumulation, is the kamma that is the cause of future rebirth-linking. These again are examples that insight leads to more detachment from nama an d rupa, but not at the beginning stages. >><< Num: The word “ayuhana” will be mentioned more in detail in PTSM under the nanakatha section. I remembered Robert asked A.Sujin about this term couple months ago. A.Supee also gave us his input. As far as I can remember (read remember, not understand :) ). “Ayuhana” refers to the cetana cetasika accompanied by samutaya. From the saccavibanga, suttantabhajaniya section, samutaya refers solely to lobha cetasika (tanha). In the abhidhammabhajaniya, which was explained in a “nothing left out style” (nippadesa-desana), samutaya refers to 1) tanha 2) the rest of the kilesas (the 9 kilesas) 3) the rest of akusaladhammas (all akusala cittas and their accompanied cetasikas) 4) the 3- kusulamulas (alobha/adosa/panna), which can be an object of asava, and 5) the rest of kusuladhamma (kusalacittas and their accompanied cetasikas), which can be an object of asava. So, my understanding, “ayuhana”, as you said, refers to the cetana cetasika as a nanakhanika kamma paccaya, which can be either kusala or akusala. I used to wonder why in paticcasamuppada, the link starts with avijja, but in the 4 noble truths, samutaya was stressed more. The nippadesa-desana above seems to cover it well. My understanding is lobha always co-occurs with avijja, and the tanha or lobha(of course with avijja) which the anagami cannot eradicate, still keeps him in the samsara (accumulating more rebirth). >>< word “anulomakhanti ", which refers to nana from kalapasammasana~nana – > anulomanana (3rd-12th nana according to 16 nana level in visuddhimagga). All > these 10 nanas have one of the tilakana (sankharadhamma) as its objects > (anulomakhanti, in Pali). >><< Nina: Question: Is there a connection with khanti, patience, or does it have another meaning here? Num: A.Supee said that here it means panna. A.Supee gave some references from the suttas, which I cannot recall at this moment. Thanks for your input. I will also try to ask more about the kalapasamasanana. “Appreciate” Num 16337 From: Date: Fri Oct 18, 2002 4:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ekayana Dear Jim, Thanks for this info. It makes sense but I don't exactly see how it makes a sentence. Could you give us the pali? Also I was wondering if having the "power of knowledge" (one of the attributes of the Kuru, along with being happy and healthy) is pa~n~naa bala? I understand that a power (bala) is unshakable by its opposite, in this case 'ignorance'. Having these three qualities seems to be the reason the Buddha considered the Kuru worthy of receiving this teaching. I'm understanding it in a rather loose, conventional sense as clear sighted certainty. Larry ------------------- Jim: "Dear Larry & Nina, L: QUESTION: what does "having set up the subject of meditation, in arahantship, in 21 places" mean? N: Could it be: in 21 locations in Kuru? I think Soma's translation of the line here is not very clear. The twenty-one places refer to the 21 meditation subjects (kamma.t.thaana-s, lit. workplaces) in the Satipa.t.thaana Sutta. These are the 14 subjects (including the 9 cemetery ones) for the contemplation of body, one each for feelings and mind, and five for the contemplation of dhammas -- totalling 21. This is according to the subcommentary which also explains "the subject of meditation" regarding arahantship to be the last one on the four truths (catusaccakamma.t.t.haana). Best wishes, Jim" 16338 From: Date: Fri Oct 18, 2002 4:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditative Experience of Nibanna Hi Kom, Nice to see you again. What does this mean?: "Just as, friend Ananda, from a fire of faggots one flame arises and another flame ceases, even so, 'Nibbana is cessation of becoming, Nibbana is cessation of becoming' - one such perception arose in me and another such perception ceased. On that occasion, friend, I perceived that Nibbana is the cessation of becoming." Larry 16339 From: jinavamsa Date: Fri Oct 18, 2002 5:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditative Experience of Nibanna hello Larry and all, As a Sufi friend of mine used to say, "If it's not one thing, it's another." What the passage you quote is apparently speaking to is the ongoing process of consciousness. The image of the transfer of heat/flame/fire from one faggot (stick of wood) to another, with the ending or cessation of the first and the arising of the second, is something that is of course talked about in the various descriptions of paticcasamuppada or dependent origination, as it is sometimes called. Unlike this sort of sequence is that which is free of such conditions for arising. We might recall that becoming here is often used to speak of the ongoing karmic (or kammic) processes that are creating still further conditions. Stepping out of that seemingly endless chain is the nibbana that is talked about. Now, why was his perception as verbalized in the 'NIbaana is cessation of becoming' uttered twice here? Do you take that to be more than simply emphasizing the idea? (the "one such perception" indicates that both are talking about or describing the same one perception, not two in a row, for example).... Jinavamsa --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Kom, > > Nice to see you again. What does this mean?: > > "Just as, friend Ananda, from a fire of faggots one flame arises and > another flame ceases, even so, 'Nibbana is cessation of becoming, > Nibbana is cessation of becoming' - one such perception arose in me and > another such perception ceased. On that occasion, friend, I perceived > that Nibbana is the cessation of becoming." > > Larry 16340 From: Date: Fri Oct 18, 2002 8:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditative Experience of Nibanna Hi Jinavamsa, Hmmm, so perceiving (sanna?) "nibbana is the cessation of becoming" is itself a becoming but it is the perception of the cessation of becoming. Must be something like witnessing one's own funeral. Larry 16341 From: rahula_80 Date: Fri Oct 18, 2002 10:10pm Subject: Definition of Vipassana Hi, What is the definition of Vipassana? I found this article written by Shakya Aryanatta. What he wrote is different from from what I have been learning about Vipassana. I guess he must be wrong. Can anyone prove him wrong? Thanks, Rahula =========== Vipassana is identical with Sammasamadhi and means specifically [vi (to remove from, back unto, extract from one thing into another, always with the connotation of removing from something into another in a neutral sense of direction) +passa (backwards, antecedently; also meaning to "see spiritually into something with your inner being") +sati (anamnesis, antecedent-recollectiveness of a point of penetration)]. What is a horrific error is that people talk about Vipassana endlessly as the practice of Buddhism in and of itself; but this can never be the case and it never occurs in that manner in the entirety of the suttas. Vipassana can only be a modifier of another word at which Vipassana is aimed. As a separate word that modifies a point of focus (Samatha) it occurs exactly 161 times in sutta, 157 times as the phrase "samatho ca vipassana", and 125 times as Samathavipassana. There is no such existence of just Vipassana as a practice in and of itself within the entirely of the Buddhist suttas. Vipassana can only be a modifier as a point of focus upon something else, namely 99% of time that of Samatha [Samma (hypostasis, perfection) + attha (abode [of], otherworldly dwelling-abode, resting place in perfect sense)], meaning the supreme abode of Samma-perfection. The non-scriptural and heretical notion of the practice Vipassana as taught in many so- called Buddhist centers today runs opposite of the definition of Vipassana. To say that one practices Vipassana is akin to saying that you "ride", both are modifiers for a subject of focus, for instance you need say that you ride a car, ride a bike, ride a bus etc., but to say that you just ride has no meaning as such. This is the exactly same case of Vipassana which means only "to extract (disembody) antecedently by Sati-anamnesis into X", X being the point of focus and disembodiment which is usually the Samma-attha (samatha) or "the abode of Samma-perfection." The notion that Vipassana is somehow "insight" meditation is to do a vast injustice to sutta that teaches otherwise regarding the practice of Samathavipassana. Heretical non Buddhist factions that have gained a great favors from the uninformed masses have gone so far as to call Vipassana "self- psychotherapy", this notion is absurd and is a product of New Age esotericism which places fame and money over accuracy to Buddhist scripture. Vipassana is best analogized by saying that Vipassana is a magnifying glass, but in sutta it is used to focus upon (disembody) into something, namely the the Samma-attha. Those who have woefully taken Vipassana out of context to mean a practice that Buddhism teaches as a standalone methodology have done a great disservice to those who are genuinely interested in what Buddhism teaches. To say otherwise cannot be proven by even a single occurrence of the word Vipassana in scripture. 16342 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Oct 18, 2002 11:47pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Meditative Experience of Nibanna Hi Larry, > -----Original Message----- > From: LBIDD@w... [mailto:LBIDD@w...] > Sent: Friday, October 18, 2002 4:58 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditative Experience of Nibanna > > > Hi Kom, > > Nice to see you again. What does this mean?: > > "Just as, friend Ananda, from a fire of faggots > one flame arises and > another flame ceases, even so, 'Nibbana is > cessation of becoming, > Nibbana is cessation of becoming' - one such > perception arose in me and > another such perception ceased. On that occasion, > friend, I perceived > that Nibbana is the cessation of becoming." > I think the V. was comparing fire to sanna (perception). As long as there are fuel (faggots), the flames arises, and what is born must cease. Sanna, the perception of nibbana, is like a flame. As long as there are conditions, it arises, and since it is born, the sanna of nibbana too must cease. How do you understand it? kom 16343 From: Purnomo . Date: Sat Oct 19, 2002 0:11am Subject: bali blast dear friends, I think you have heard about Bali blast. The tragedy that bring some people wound and died. I am so angry. Bali is my home. We are so popular because we are kind and nice but, there are some people want to make us be angry. I don't know what are we wrong ? Is this our kamma? That isn't fun. We always remember to share metta. I think the tourists know about it. so, what are we wrong? We always remember kamma. If we act 'bad' so we know we will get bad kamma anytime. In Dhamma, I search how process of kamma do so Bali was boomed. I cann't talk again. I am so sad and... angry! where is metta, purnomo 16344 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Oct 19, 2002 2:58am Subject: Re: bali blast Dear Purnomo, Please don't be upset and distressed, don't let the bombers cause you to feel anger and hatred. You are not their puppet. The intention of the violent ones is to further disrupt society, to cause more fear, anger, hatred and division. Don't give them that satisfaction, they would think it a great victory. Read the Scriptures about loving-kindness towards all, about compassion towards all, until you are able to abide in calmness. This awful time will pass. Life on Bali will return to being normal and peaceful once again. The holiday makers will return, the Balinese economy will recover. Try to use this horror as a reminder to intensify your practice. The whole world knows that this action was not done by Balinese. It is not part of some national kamma of Bali or Australia. It is just dukkha, it is just life in samsara. Remember always that the people of Bali are held in great affection and respect, especially by Australians. We visit your lovely, friendly, gentle country in our hundreds of thousands just because of those wonderful qualities. Mention the word Kuta and no-one needs to ask where that is. Bali and the Balinese are so well known and so loved and admired that an Australian even had a best selling song called "I've been to Bali too" - because Bali is such a delightful and popular place to visit anyone coming back from holidays there and telling others about it, would always be interrupted by a friend saying, "I've been to Bali, too". I understand that over a hundred and fifty people died. I understand they were from many countries, though the majority were Australian. There has been great grief in Bali, there has been great grief in Australia, and in isolated homes scattered all over the world. Tomorrow is a Day of Mourning here in Australia - flags will be flown at half-mast, all will be asked to observe a minutes silence, there will be religious ceremonies. We are your Dhamma friends Purnomo, and we understand, and wish every calm, gentle and loving feeling toward you. "May all beings be happy and safe, May they all have tranquil minds. Whatsoever pulsates with the breath of life - the frail or strong, without exception - the long, the large, the medium-sized, the short, the thin or fat. Those visible, and those invisible, those living far away or nearby; Beings who are already born and those yet unborn. May they all be happy! May no-one deceive another, nor despise him in anyway anywhere. Let no-one wish another ill, owing to anger or provocation. Just as a mother would protect her son - her only son - with her life - even so let him cultivate this boundless love to all living beings. Radiating with a full heart loving thoughts of kindness towards all the world, free from anger, malice or anxiety - above, below and in all directions. Hate is never overcome by hate By love alone it is quelled. This is a truth of ancient date. Today still unexcelled. Avoidance of evil, Performance of good deeds, Purification of one's thoughts. This is the teaching of the Buddhas. May all beings be happy." metta and karuna, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Purnomo ." wrote: > > dear friends, > > I think you have heard about Bali blast. The tragedy that bring some people > wound and died. I am so angry. Bali is my home. We are so popular because we > are kind and nice but, there are some people want to make us be angry. I > don't know what are we wrong ? Is this our kamma? > That isn't fun. We always remember to share metta. I think the tourists know > about it. so, what are we wrong? We always remember kamma. If we act 'bad' > so we know we will get bad kamma anytime. In Dhamma, I search how process of > kamma do so Bali was boomed. > > I cann't talk again. I am so sad and... angry! > > where is metta, > > purnomo 16345 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Oct 19, 2002 4:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Your duty is the contemplation" Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Jon, > > I think there might be a slight difference between the knowledge in > satipatthana and insight knowledge of anicca/dukkha/anatta, but I'm not > sure. Maybe Nina could comment. For example, the inventory of the > various repulsive aspects of the body is rather objective and > impersonal. Insight seems to go further and say this is dukkha. I guess > the one could arise after the other, but my impression was that jhana > laid the ground for a deeper insight. Maybe I'm just getting mundane and > supra-mundane levels mixed up. I'm a little confused on this point. > > Larry > ps: of course insight knowledge would arise with sati. The insight knowledge (panna) that knows/sees the characteristic of anicca/dukkha/anatta of a dhamma is panna of a highly developed level. At less developed levels, panna may see the dhamma as a nama or rupa, but not its characteristic as anicca/dukkha/anatta. In either case, the dhamma is directly experienced as it truly is, but with different levels of insight. All levels of insight, as with all kusala mind-states, are accompanied by the mental factor that is sati (awareness). However, not all mind-states accompanied by sati are accompanied by panna. The term ‘satipatthana’, to my understanding, refers to those moments of awareness that are accompanied by panna of the level that directly experiences dhammas, in other words, moments of insight. These may be weak (less developed) insight or strong (highly developed) insight. I hope this helps. Jon 16346 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Oct 19, 2002 5:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Elements of Thinking/Contemplation in Vipassana Bhavana Howard In your post below you say of 'informal meditation': <> “Seeing” here is another word for “attending to”. But if you think about it, there cannot be “attending to” something without a clear idea of what the “something” is. Even when we call it “whatever arises”, there has to be an idea of what that might possibly be, and so there is, in effect, it seems to me, a specifying or limiting of the object at that moment of directed attention. Jon > > It seems to me that if there is to be an attending that is truly an > > attending to *any* presently arising phenomenon, (i.e., any phenomenon > > that presents itself, without being concerned as to what that > phenomenon > > might be), this could only be an attending that is not deliberate or > > directed. > > ----------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I don't think this is so. I do not find it a contradiction in > terms. > The difference is that of mental readiness and heightened attentiveness. > It > is quite difficult to maintain such a high level without restricting > input, > which, in fact, is why formal concentrative meditation is most common, > but it > is not impossible. It is a skill that can be developed to varying > levels. > It's practice amounts to "seeing" whatever arises clearly without > "getting > lost". It is attempted by many vipassana meditators, and it is the basis > of > the formal, but unrestricted, meditation technique of shikantaza (sp?), > the > "just sitting" technique of Ch'an/Zen. And of course, there are > compromise > approaches: For example, during ordinary activities such as eating, > standing, > taking a walk, and even falling asleep, one can primarily restrict > attention > to bodily position and sensation. Other things will be noticed as well, > of > course, but the body is used as an "anchor". > ----------------------------------------------------- 16347 From: Date: Sat Oct 19, 2002 3:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] bali blast Hi, Purnomo - I'm very sorry, sorry for what has happened in your country and for the sadness it brings to you! It is not the kamma vipaka of the Balinese, but is the new kamma of the terrorists so mired in their ignorance and hatred. The victims are just victims. Of course the fruits of our own kamma play multiple roles in what we we experience, and it is impossible for us to unravel exactly where and to what extent, but, for the most part, the evil actions of misguided people are their own, and they bear primary responsibility for them. With metta, Howard (from the N.Y. City area, once home to the Twin Towers) In a message dated 10/19/02 3:11:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, purnomo9@h... writes: > dear friends, > > I think you have heard about Bali blast. The tragedy that bring some people > > wound and died. I am so angry. Bali is my home. We are so popular because > we > are kind and nice but, there are some people want to make us be angry. I > don't know what are we wrong ? Is this our kamma? > That isn't fun. We always remember to share metta. I think the tourists > know > about it. so, what are we wrong? We always remember kamma. If we act 'bad' > so we know we will get bad kamma anytime. In Dhamma, I search how process > of > kamma do so Bali was boomed. > > I cann't talk again. I am so sad and... angry! > > where is metta, > > purnomo > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16348 From: Date: Sat Oct 19, 2002 3:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Elements of Thinking/Contemplation in Vipassana Bhavana Hi, Jon - In a message dated 10/19/02 8:10:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Howard > > In your post below you say of 'informal meditation': > < "getting > lost".>> > > “Seeingâ€? here is another word for “attending toâ€?. But if you think about > it, there cannot be “attending toâ€? something without a clear idea of what > the “somethingâ€? is. Even when we call it “whatever arisesâ€?, there has to > be an idea of what that might possibly be, and so there is, in effect, it > seems to me, a specifying or limiting of the object at that moment of > directed attention. > > Jon > ======================= For you and me this is so, very much so. The more advanced and adept we become, the less true I believe it is. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16349 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Oct 19, 2002 8:01am Subject: Re: Definition of Vipassana --- Dear Rahula, here is a letter Nina van Gorkom wrote a while back that is relevant: , ""The development of vipassana, of satipatthana or of the eightfold Path, it all amounts to the same. It is the development of pa~n~naa that clearly knows the characteristics of dhammas. This has been taught in all parts of the scriptures, even though the word vipassana may not often occur. For example, in the Kindred Sayings (IV, Fourth Fifty Ch 3, § 204, Judas tree) the word dassana.m, seeing is used: translated by the PTS as insight. Dassati and passati (in vipassanaa) are both seeing. We should consider what should be seen? How is this seeing pure? We read, "friend, when a monk understands as they really are the arising and the destruction of the sixfold sense-sphere, to that extent is his insight fully developed." Thus, seeing all realities that appear through the six doors as they are, as impermanent. Is that not the goal? As Jon recently explained so clearly, we should not see the factors of the eightfold Path as a series of steps or a number of qualities each to be developed separately. Even if they are treated separately, they have to developed together. Without pa~n~naa the other factors are not factors of the eightfold Path. Jim explained the word vipassanaa: < the Patisambhidhamagga com. gives the following interpretation of vipassanaa: "Aniccataadivasena vividhehi aakaarehi dhamma passatii ti vipassanaa." It sees realities in various aspects by way of impermanence and so on.> In the "Path of Discrimination" you will find many passages on insight and the stages of insight, Treatise on Knowledge, Ch XVII, Behaviour. Buddhaghosa in his commentaries uses the word vipassana very frequently: it should know the khandhas, the dhatus, the ayatanas, thus whatever appears through the six doors, again and again. Jim mentioned that the Buddha Vipassii was given this name, I am delighted with this viceyya, viceyya passati, he sees constantly investigating. I need this reminder, I forget "good old seeing and good old visible object" as Jon so aptly remarked. It reminds me that just investigating once or twice is not enough. It is really difficult to know what is hearing and what is sound, how we mix up the two. But we find this not interesting enough, we rather think of "stories" about people and things. We may find situations very important. But, as Sarah recently wrote Robert wrote to Sukin:< When we are listening to dhamma or discussing or reading the texts, what cittas are present? Isn't there seeing and visible object, sound and hearing, bhavangacittas... It all points to understand the anattaness of dhammas that are arising now. These dhammas are arising right while listening or considering- now is the time to understand.> I believe that in this way we shall understand what vipassana is, we shall not worry how often this word is used in early texts, or whether it has been used more often in later texts. It is the message we find in the whole Tipitaka that counts: investigation of realities appearing now, so that we gradually can understand their true nature of anatta. "Constantly investigating he sees. " Best wishes, Nina. In dhammastudygroup@y..., "rahula_80" wrote: > Hi, > > What is the definition of Vipassana? > > I found this article written by Shakya Aryanatta. What he wrote is > different from from what I have been learning about Vipassana. I > guess he must be wrong. Can anyone prove him wrong? > > Thanks, Rahula > > > =========== > > Vipassana is identical with Sammasamadhi and means specifically [vi > (to remove from, back unto, extract from one thing into another, > always with the connotation of removing from something into another > in a neutral sense of direction) +passa (backwards, antecedently; > also meaning to "see spiritually into something with > your inner being") +sati (anamnesis, antecedent-recollectiveness of a > point of penetration)]. What is a horrific error is that people talk > about Vipassana endlessly as the practice of Buddhism in and of > itself; but this can never be the case and it never occurs in that > manner in the entirety of the suttas. Vipassana > can only be a modifier of another word at which Vipassana is aimed. > 16350 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Oct 19, 2002 8:19am Subject: Re: bali blast --- Dear Purnomo, I have a great feeling towards Bali and Indonesia.I think it is a country where many people have inclination and ability in Dhamma. I was last in Bali 2 years ago for 5 weeks. I visited the Brahma Vihara temple in Lovina for the second time. The head monk (I forget his name but he is about 76 years old is very knowledgeable and hospitable ) We had a very nice meeting (he had met T.A.sujin several times in bangkok)and had read Nina Van Gorkoms books. I do intend to visit again when I have a chance. I think there will always be, all over the world, foolish people who will use any means to further their aims. They cannot be reasoned with and the government may have to take strong measures. But that will all happen with or without us thinking much about it(unless we are leaders of our country). What we can do is develop the right understabnding of this moment - and then the characteristics of kamma and vipaka become clearer. Robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Purnomo ." wrote: > > dear friends, > > I think you have heard about Bali blast. The tragedy that bring some people > wound and died. I am so angry. Bali is my home. We are so popular because we > are kind and nice but, there are some people want to make us be angry. I > don't know what are we wrong ? Is this our kamma? > That isn't fun. We always remember to share metta. I think the tourists know > about it. so, what are we wrong? We always remember kamma. If we act 'bad' > so we know we will get bad kamma anytime. In Dhamma, I search how process of > kamma do so Bali was boomed. > > I cann't talk again. I am so sad and... angry! > > where is metta, > > purnomo > 16351 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Oct 19, 2002 11:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] ekayana Dear Jinavamsa, op 18-10-2002 00:14 schreef jinavamsa op jinavamsa@h...: . When you say > that only Buddhas teach satipatthana while others explain > it, do you mean that only Buddhas introduce the practice > in its original presentation (for a given age) and that > others are following that initial presentation? N: Only Buddhas discover through enlightenment the Truth all by themselves, the Truth of non-self. How to realize this? In developing satipatthana. The Buddha has passed away, but he left the Dhamma Vinaya as his heritage. We are so fortunate that his teachings are still available, and also the Commentaries. Wise friends, kaliyana mitta can help us with the practice of satipatthana. It is so very subtle and because of ignorance and clinging to results we can easily go the wrong way, I find. J: When you mention that satipatthana has as object > conditioned nama and rupa, what is its object when > the dhamma arising is an unconditioned dhamma? Does > that or can you link that with the original discussion > between Culla Naaga and his teacher Culla Summa, even > if the quotation in question is not to be found (pace > the citation) in the Patisambhida? N: The development of understanding of the objects included in the four Applications is the same as the development of the mundane eightfold Path. Thus, the objects are the conditioned namas and rupas in our life, just now. Just now while in a hurry to do different things, being at work in the office, experiencing pleasant objects or saddening objects. Culla Naaga was right. When we follow this way, eventually, after how many lives we do not know, the goal will be reached and the Path will be lokuttara. But why should we occupy ourselves with this now? I quote from the verse: . Don't we have wrong view now? Through satipatthana right view is being developed, but very, very gradually. This whole process goes much more slowly than we ever thought. However, it is so encouraging that we, thanks to the teachings, are enabled to begin, that we learn to see when and how we go wrong. With appreciation of your earnest study, Nina. > 16352 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Oct 19, 2002 11:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: subtle rupas Hi Rob M, op 17-10-2002 16:24 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: I agree that it doesn't make sense > to try and experience all paramattha dhammas. N: I am glad. R: I am still not clear on how the rupas jivitindriya, masculinity or > feminity can be considered "produced rupas" (i.e. suitable for > practice of insight). What is the object if it is not a concept and > we are not looking at "indirect effects" such as heat from > jivitindriya? If we are looking at "indirect effects", then what are > the "indirect effects" of masculinity and femininity? My assumption > is that the object of insight which shows the heart base is the > existence of cittas (not the cittas themselves). Isn't this > an "indirect effect"? N: I am not sure about the term indirect effect. Produced rupas, suitable for insight: this does not mean that everybody will experience directly their characteristics. It means that they are concrete rupas, realities which *can* be experienced. When time comes and they appear one can see for oneself. Who knows what will appear to sati and panna? Thus, we should not exclude them as objects of insight, that is all. Indirect effects, this is thinking about them. The "indirect effects" of masculinity and femininity: these rupas are all over the body and therefore we can discern this is a man, this is a woman. There is seeing of visible object and on account of this we know, this is a man, this is a woman. We learn that the heartbase (but we do not have to call it heartbase, it is designated as : that rupa) is the physical base of cittas other than the sense-cognitions. We can think of this fact, but we do not know who can be directly aware of it. Let us not try!! R: I am still trying to get my mind around the idea that Satipatthana > is not meditation, but something that could/should be part of every > moment. Would it be correct to call Satipatthana a "perspective"? N: I am not inclined to use the word perspective, it is too weak:It sounds like: just one point of view and there are other perspectives. Satipatthana is mental development, bhavana. We can use the word meditation for bhavana, but this word has different meanings for different people. Some people think of sitting and certain rules to be followed when they use the word meditation. There are no rules for satipatthana. Part of every moment? I do not think every moment. I think, daily life. Daily life is also the life of the monk and of laypeople who are inclined to sit in meditation and develop samatha. It is for all kinds of lifestyles and nothing is excluded. Some people have excruciating doubts about the Path, the teachings, the goal. Also doubt is included: only a conditioned nama. Isn't it wonderful that nothing is excluded? R: I also have an unrelated question. In Nyanatiloka's Buddhist > Dictionary, under the entry for "Sankhara", it says that there are > three types of sankhara; demeritorious (arises only in Kamavacara), > meritorious (arises in Kamavacara or Rupavacara) and imperturbable > (arises only in Arupavacara). Can I say that demerititorious is > equivalent to akusala? N: Yes. R:Certainly a person in the 5th Jhana must > continue to generate kamma, so this implies that imperturbable is a > special class of kusala. What makes it special? N: Arupa jhanacitta, and the type of citta is the same as the highest rupajhana. The meditation subject is no longer connected with materiality, thus extremely calm. But it is not the goal, because it can still have rebirth as effect. I should thank all those who ask questions, because they help me too to consider more. As always, I enjoyed your questions and appreciate your earnestness, Nina. 16353 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Oct 19, 2002 11:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 13, Comm. Hi Larry, op 18-10-2002 01:01 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > This section gives an indication of the relathionship between > satipatthana and 'analytical knowledge' (patisambhida nana). I wonder if > we are placing too much emphasis on the panna that accompanies > satipatthana. Maybe panna should be considered to be a result of > satipatthana and more closely associated with patisambhida nana. N: We read that Pitamalla attained arahatship with the Patisambiddhas, analytical knowledges. Not for everybody, not for people in this time. The Buddha and some arahats had these discriminative knowledges. They are the highest attainments. See the Post Sarah recommended from the archives. Even Arahats had different degrees of wisdom, not all of them had these discriminative knowledges. Never enough emphasis on panna: it should be developed from beginning to end. Panna which begins, and then panna which becomes insight knowledge of different stages. How otherwise can it be realized that rupa and nama are ? As we read: For the last sentence I shall look up the Pali, it is somewhat strange. Jim gave me the text. L: Discerning whether a breath is long or short is surely not panna. Any > clarification? N: When we think of the context of samatha, there must be panna which knows how to develop calm with this subject, which knows the difference between akusala citta and kusala citta. Lobha may come in time and again, does it not? Attachment to: I want to do this, I want result, I want to become calm. Strong mindfulness also is necessary as the Vis. states. And here in the Satipatthana sutta the objective is indicated: to take realities appearing when developing mindfulness of breathing as impermanent, dukkha and anatta. Is that not panna? If you take a deep breath just now, Larry, so many things can happen, forgetfulness and moha, or, awareness of some namas and rupas. Is there no hardness, feeling, thinking? I have to take a deep breath, aw, I am nervous. I have to perform on my recorder (Maraing Marais) at a house concert just now. I may forget my first duty! Nina. 16354 From: Date: Sat Oct 19, 2002 11:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Your duty is the contemplation" "This is the only way, o bhikkhus, for the purfication of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, for the destruction of suffering and grief..." Hi Jon, I think the commentary on these words relates to our discussion. FOR THE PURIFUICATION OF BEINGS: Purification is achieved by abandoning the taints (sensual desire, desire for permanent being, views, and ignorance). I understand from Num's comments on Psm. that ignorance (and views) are also manifestations of desire. How this abandoning comes about is as it may be, but I think for many people the discipline of formal practice prompts understanding (panna). FOR THE OVERCOMING OF SORROW AND LAMENTATION: Here analytical knowledge or understanding spontaneously arose upon hearing a verse. The tika says this could not have happened without the previous development of wisdom (panna) through contemplating form, feeling, consciousness or dhammas. This suggests to me that satipatthana is more contemplative than I thought, but I still would be averse to thinking of it as academic or scholarly. FOR THE DESTRUCTION OF SUFFERING AND GRIEF: Here extreme physical pain is suppressed and insight is developed. This also seems to depend on previous discipline and contemplation. L: So I guess my 'feel' for the contemplative nature of satipatthana is expanded to include both ongoing contemplation and a moment's insight, but I think the develpment of purity by abandoning desires is a good element to bring to the bavana. I notice the desire to understand isn't a taint but I don't exactly see why not. I would think all desire is ultimately based on a 'self' view. Maybe desire to understand is included in the views taint. If so, where does that leave the practice? Let go of the desire to understand but continue to contemplate? Larry 16355 From: Date: Sat Oct 19, 2002 1:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 13, Comm. Hi Nina, Maybe I am getting stuck on the technical characteristics of panna. For example, its proximate cause is concentration. Sanna, vinnana, and panna are all 'understanding'. Plus there are 12 different kinds of panna; none of which I have investigated yet. Plus I don't understand what is included in individual essense (sabhava) and what isn't. And really I have yet to see the instruction to regard something as impermanent, dukkha, anatta explicitly linked to mindfulness. And also under "How is it [panna] developed" it doesn't explicitly say "satipatthana". So there is a lot to investigate here. I know 'satipatthana' is also a general term that includes anything in the 8-fold path. Larry 16356 From: Date: Sat Oct 19, 2002 5:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] bali blast Dear Purnomo I have nothing much to add. Christine, Howard, and Robert have already shared thier very kind, deep, and wise input. <>. I am not really good at talking, but I's like to say that I am glad that you have shared your pain, suffering, and distress with us on dsg. I hope we will hear more from you. Again, grief when shared is half. Best wishes. Num <> 16357 From: Date: Sat Oct 19, 2002 5:09pm Subject: Ayatana re-revisit. Dear Nina, Sarah, Robert, and all. Nina : >><><< I brought your question to the Eng. discussion. I have to admit that I was delighted by the all day discussion we had yesterday. It was very interactive. When someone asked a question, everyone shared his/her input, and opinions. There were a good dose of both laughter and tease. Let me try to put the information together: A.Sujin asked us to read from Vism and Vibhanga regarding the definitions of ayatana. Briefly from Vibhanga, Vism and Abms: ayatana means 1) a dwelling place (nivasa, nissayapaccaya) for cittas and cetasikas, 2) a birthplace (sa~njati) for cittas and cetasikas, 3) bringing along (akara) 4) a meeting place (samosarana) for cittas, cetasikas, dvara, and arammana, and 5) a root (hetu, karana). In an eye-door process (cakhudvaravithi), the vithi starts at an adverting citta (avajjana citta). Although the visible object (ruparammana), and the eye-base (cakhupasada) have arisen before the process starts, as purejatapaccayas. The 3 bhavanga cittas are not really a part of the process but was put in as a reference for the beginning of the object and base. Let me review very briefly. 12 ayatanas: 5 sense-bases, and their correspondent objects ( = 10) ayatanas. The manayatana(11) refers to all citta, and dhammayatana(12) covers cetasikas, subtle rupas, and nibbana. From the definitions of ayatana above, ayatana refers to the realities, which exist at that present moment to perform each own function. Pannatti is not counted as ayatana b/c it’s not a reality. Arammana can be ayatana if it still presents at that present moment. ++++++++++++++ An eye-door process: At the 3 moments of bhanvagas, there are 2 ayatanas: manayatana(bhavanga citta itself) and dhammayatana (the cetasikas that are accompaning bhavanga citta). At the adverting consciousness moment, there are 4 ayatanas met. The adverting consciousness is manayatana(1), the cetasikas accommpanying adverting consciousness are dhammayatana(2), the visible-object is rupayatana(3), the pasadarupa is cakhayatana(4). At the seeing conscious moment, there are 4 ayatanas met. The seeing consciousness is manayatana(1), its accompanied cetasikas is dhammayatana(2), the visible-object is rupayatana(3), and the pasadarupa is cakayatana(4). The rest of the process (6th -17th) is the same. The visible object has arisen and has not yet fallen away during the whole process: rupayatana. The eye-base (pasadarupa) is there at the same time and also has not fallen away through out the process. So the eyebase is still a paccaya for the process. Although the eye- base is a dvara for only seeing consciousness, but without the eye-base, the adverting cannot arise to perform its functions and the rest of the cittas in the process cannot arise. At the moment of 3 bhavangas, although the visible object and the eye-base have already arisen, but the bhavanga does not have the visible object as its object, so visible object is not a cakhayatana at that moment. The same goes for pasadarupa during the 3 bhavanga moments. The arammana of bhavanga citta is a concept or the past arammana (the object that already has fallen away, so it cannot be called ayatana at that moment. ************************ For the mind-door process: When the mind-door process is having panntti (concept) as its object: there are 2 ayatana (manayatana and dhammayatana). Concept is not an ayatana. When the mind-door process is having rupa as its object continues from the five- door process: there are 2 ayatanas (manayatana and dhammayatana). The rupa is a past object b/c it has completely away with the sense-door process citta. It’s not a present object, so cannot be counted as ayatana. In a person who can have subtle rupa as his/her object (the subtle rupa can be known only through the mind-door). There still only 2 ayatanas but it is somewhat different. The cittas in a mind-door process are manayatana, their accompanies cetasikas are dhammayatana, and the subtle is also a dhammayatana, b/c it is a present object during the mind-door process. So there are 2 different realities under the dhammayatana. When the mind-door process is having nibbana as its object. There are 2 ayatanas, and the reason is the same as when the cittas in the mind-door process have a subtle rupa as its object. I think Robert can give some more detail. (Robert, may I ask you to make a post on samasaananana?) Have to run. Best wishes. Num 16358 From: Brian Kelley Date: Sat Oct 19, 2002 5:46pm Subject: Back from retreat, 1 & 2 Hello everyone, I've just joined this group at Howard's suggestion. In response to something I posted on the dhamma-list, Howard wrote, "Hi, Brian - I find this post of yours very interesting, particularly with regard to the relationship between the jhanas and Abhidhamma knowledge. Do you, by any chance, subscribe to DSG? I would love the folks there to read your post." I look forward to continuing in this group as I continue my first baby steps in studying the Abhidhamma. I've combined the two posts into one. The initial post was a brief summary, the second a response to questions. ------------------------ Back from retreat 1 Hi everyone, Just returned from a weeklong introduction to the Abhidhamma at the Barre Center for Buddhist Studies. It was a delightful week, filled with many of those very pleasurable moments of "Aha! Now I understand." We were blessed with two wonderful teachers. In the mornings and afternoons, we delved into Bhikkhu Bodhi's "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma," with Andrew Olendzki, a Pali scholar and the Director of BCBS. In the evenings, we were taught by Sister Susila, a nun visiting from a monastery in Burma. She gave us another perspective on the material, and taught us how, in her monastery, the Abhidhamma informs and guides their meditation practice. It was a marvelous week, and I note just a little clinging, wishing it could have gone on longer. Oh well. (happy face) Looking forward to catching up on the messages I've missed while I was away -- hope everyone is well and happy. Much love, Brian ------------------------------------ Back from retreat 2 Hello Jack, I hope you won't mind if I reply to each question in turn. Jack: Tell us more about your week. Brian: With pleasure. Thanks for asking. Jack: Was there a practice component to the teachings? Brian: Very much so, especially from Sister Susila. At the outset, we were told (by Andy Olendzki) that at Sister's monastery (Pa Auk Tawga, a forest monastery in southern Burma) students don't even approach the Abhidhamma until they have developed the jhanas in their meditation practice. Very strong concentration is required so that one can begin to actually see these states as they arise. During the week, in addition to the classroom teachings, Sister also gave meditation instructions: one on how to use mindfulness of breathing (after which she described the process for developing access concentration and the jhanas), and another on the analysis of the four elements. In the analysis of the four elements, one moves one's attention systematically through the body and feels the sensations of each of the characteristics of the 4 elements (12 characteristics altogether.) For the earth element, one would feel: hardness, roughness, heaviness, softness, smoothness, and lightness. For water element: flowing and cohesion. For fire element: hot and cold. For air element: supporting and pushing. (It was said that the analysis of the four elements can lead to access concentration, but not to jhana.) I enjoyed doing the four element meditation very much, but it can be very tiring to the mind, especially at first. I have a handout describing the Pa Auk method for developing the four elements meditation. I had been thinking that I could type it in and post it to the list, but on second thought I suspected that one should be taught this material by a teacher in a face-to-face context, who can answer any questions that might arise. What do you think? Jack: What was your biggest "aha"? Brian: Well, there was a whole string of them. Just little moments when things were unclear but then came into focus and I suddenly understood, I could see what they were getting at. That's such a pleasurable feeling! The buzz of learning. My strategy for this week was to use the hour (more or less) before each class period to do sitting meditation, to make my mind as concentrated as possible, and then in the classes to just open my heart and let the teachings flow in. I wasn't trying to do a lot of analyzing or "chewing on" the material, but to simply be receptive. I suspect that bigger "aha"s await as the material metabolizes and becomes integrated. It's still very new. Jack: How much did they stress Dependent Origination? Brian: Actually, it was only brought up long enough to quickly go through the classic 12-link formulation and then say that we wouldn't be dealing much with that model. We focused on the Abhidhamma model of conditionality (the 24 conditions) but unfortunately it was getting toward the end and we did not have nearly enough time to really begin to look into its complexities. Jack: Did they tie together analysis of consciousness with liberational strategies? Brian: Oh, yes. For me, the thought arose that the Abhidhamma material was the result of looking at the five aggregates with a much bigger and more powerful magnifying glass, and describing what's there with greater precision and finer detail. By looking more closely at the body and mind with strong concentration, anatta can actually be seen and experienced. What appears so solid and "real" are just phenomena arising and ceasing very quickly. Seeing this as it's happening (really seeing it, not just thinking about it) leads to liberating insight. That's my current understanding (or misunderstanding) of it, anyway. Thanks for asking, Jack. How does all this strike you? With metta, Brian 16359 From: jinavamsa Date: Sat Oct 19, 2002 6:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ekayana hello Nina and all, Yes, it is good to have access to kalyana mittas (if I may use that plural here). About the gradual coming to see into process, it is indeed a long path, a gradual one, as you say. Thank you for your very inspired and inspiring reply. Jinavamsa --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Jinavamsa, > > op 18-10-2002 00:14 schreef jinavamsa op jinavamsa@h...: > > . When you say > > that only Buddhas teach satipatthana while others explain > > it, do you mean that only Buddhas introduce the practice > > in its original presentation (for a given age) and that > > others are following that initial presentation? > N: Only Buddhas discover through enlightenment the Truth all by themselves, > the Truth of non-self. How to realize this? In developing satipatthana. The > Buddha has passed away, but he left the Dhamma Vinaya as his heritage. We > are so fortunate that his teachings are still available, and also the > Commentaries. Wise friends, kaliyana mitta can help us with the practice of > satipatthana. It is so very subtle and because of ignorance and clinging to > results we can easily go the wrong way, I find. > > J: When you mention that satipatthana has as object > > conditioned nama and rupa, what is its object when > > the dhamma arising is an unconditioned dhamma? Does > > that or can you link that with the original discussion > > between Culla Naaga and his teacher Culla Summa, even > > if the quotation in question is not to be found (pace > > the citation) in the Patisambhida? > N: The development of understanding of the objects included in the four > Applications is the same as the development of the mundane eightfold Path. > Thus, the objects are the conditioned namas and rupas in our life, just now. > Just now while in a hurry to do different things, being at work in the > office, experiencing pleasant objects or saddening objects. Culla Naaga was > right. When we follow this way, eventually, after how many lives we do not > know, the goal will be reached and the Path will be lokuttara. But why > should we occupy ourselves with this now? I quote from the verse: that Way there is no other for the purifying of vision> . Don't we have > wrong view now? Through satipatthana right view is being developed, but > very, very gradually. This whole process goes much more slowly than we ever > thought. However, it is so encouraging that we, thanks to the teachings, are > enabled to begin, that we learn to see when and how we go wrong. > With appreciation of your earnest study, > Nina. > > 16360 From: Date: Sat Oct 19, 2002 2:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Back from retreat, 1 & 2 Hi, Brian - In a message dated 10/19/02 8:46:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bkelley1@n... writes: > > Hello everyone, > > I've just joined this group at Howard's suggestion. In response to > something I > posted on the dhamma-list, Howard wrote, "Hi, Brian - I find this post of > yours > very interesting, particularly with regard to the relationship between the > jhanas and Abhidhamma knowledge. Do you, by any chance, subscribe to > DSG? I would love the folks there to read your post." ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Wow, that was *fast*! I'm happy to see you here. :-) =========================== With metta, Howard (The remainder of your post is snipped) /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16361 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sat Oct 19, 2002 8:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ekayana Dear Larry, > Thanks for this info. It makes sense but I don't exactly see how it > makes a sentence. Could you give us the pali? It was only part of the sentence. Here's the whole sentence in Pali: tena tesa.m bhagavaa ima.m gambhiiradesanaapa.tiggaha.nasamatthata.m sampassanto ekaviisatiyaa .thaanesu kamma.t.thaana.m arahatte pakkhipitvaa ida.m gambhiirattha.m satipa.t.thaanasutta.m abhaasi. Soma Thera's translation: "Therefore, the Blessed One, perceiving their ability to appreciate this profound instruction, proclaimed to them this Discourse on the Arousing of Mindfulness, which is deep in meaning, having set up the subject of meditation, in Arahantship, in twenty-one places." I find "having set up the subject of meditation, in Arahantship, in twenty-one places." unclear especially with the "in Arahantship" part thrown in. The subcommentary has: kamma.t.thaana.m arahatte pakkhipitvaati catusaccakamma.t.thaana.m yathaa arahatta.m paapeti, eva.m desanaavasena arahatte pakkhipitvaa. Soma translates "kamma.t.thaana.m arahatte pakkhipitvaa" as "having set up [pakkhipitvaa] the subject of meditation [kamma.t.thaana.m], in Arahantship [arahatte]," (I have inserted the Pali in square brackets).The subco. leaves little doubt that the meditation subject meant here is the one on the four truths (in the section on mental objects) and says that it brings about arahantship. "eva.m desanaavasena" = "thus by way of a teaching" is unclear in the context. It could be saying something about "arahatte" or it could be the conclusion of the preceding phrase. I find it very difficult to make sense of the Pali or Soma's rendering. In view of the simile of filling a golden basket with divers flowers or a golden casket with precious jewels, my tentative interpretation is "after having laid out, from among the twenty-one, a meditation subject pertaining to arahantship (to the inhabitants of the Kuru country)". > Also I was wondering if having the "power of knowledge" (one of the > attributes of the Kuru, along with being happy and healthy) is pa~n~naa > bala? I understand that a power (bala) is unshakable by its opposite, in > this case 'ignorance'. Having these three qualities seems to be the > reason the Buddha considered the Kuru worthy of receiving this teaching. > I'm understanding it in a rather loose, conventional sense as clear > sighted certainty. You're right in thinking that the "power of knowledge" is pa~n~naabala in Pali, but it comes as part of a longer compound 'anuggahitapa~n~naabalaa' which is best seen in the following sentence: te cittasariirakallataaya anuggahitapa~n~naabalaa gambhiirakatha.m pariggahetu.m samatthaa honti. Soma translates this as: "They, happy with healthy minds and bodies, and having the power of knowledge, were capable of receiving deep teachings." I find 'happy' unusual. I think it may be a translation of 'anuggahita-' -- favoured, assisted, helped. My tentative translation is: "They, having the power of understanding -- helped by a healthy state of mind and body, were capable of fully comprehending a profound talk. The subco. has: anuggahitapa~n~naabalaati laddhupakaara~naa.naanubhaavaa, anu anu vaa aaci.n.napa~n~naatejaa. "having the power of understanding -- helped by" -- having the power of knowledge with the help obtained from or (alternatively) having the fire of understanding -- accumulated through repetition. Note that 'aanubhaava' and 'teja' are synonyms for 'bala'. Best wishes, Jim 16362 From: Date: Sat Oct 19, 2002 9:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ekayana Thanks Jim, Your comments at least made me more comfortable with my own bewilderment. I thought maybe I could pick out a clue in the pali, but it was way beyond me. Coincidentally I was in a bookstore today and noticed that Joseph Goldstein has a new book out called "One Way". It's a broad nontechnical book covering several traditions but the chapter on satipatthana actually seems to be following the commentary and for pa~n~naabala he had "love of wisdom". That seemed pretty apt to me. "Helped by" healthy body and mind does make more sense than "happy with"... Larry 16363 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Oct 19, 2002 11:42pm Subject: Meeting with Acharn somporn I took the opportunity to practice my Thai and learn some Dhamma when I had lunch with Acharn Somporn and T. A. Sujin today. I've listened to Somporn in Thai but never spoken with him. He asked how long I had been studying Abhidhamma and said that khanti (patience ) is needed to really understand when I told him only 15years. He said that reading the texts is one aspect but only by understanding sabhava -realities - directly can there be proper understanding. Everything is dhamma , whether it be seeing or hearing, colour or sound, hardness, heat, even avijja (ignorance) is dhamma. There is no one,no being there at all but because of wrong view the characteristics (lakkhana ) which are simply conditioned dhamma are taken as self. This is very deep and subtle sakkya ditthi shows itself by clinging to wrong practice. He said if there is real understanding of sabhava dhamma then there is no fear of death because there is no self in sabhava. I asked about his life: he was a novice monk at 16 with an interest in pali and Abhidhamma and was soon giving sermons. At 22 he was fully ordained and then spent another 10 years as a monk. He has been a friend of Sujins for almost 50 years and is now a very relaxed looking 82 years old. Robert 16364 From: azita gill Date: Sun Oct 20, 2002 0:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] bali blast --- "Purnomo ." wrote: > > dear friends, > > I think you have heard about Bali blast. The tragedy > that bring some people > wound and died. I am so angry. Bali is my home> > > dear Purnomo, > I think this has affected many people the same way. > I read in an earlier post about the 4 sublime states taught by the Buddha: > Metta, Karuna, Mudita, Upekkha. they are the right or ideal way of conduct towards living beings. They provide the answer to all situations arising from social contact. They are the great removers of tension, the great peace-makers in social conflict and the great healers of wounds suffered in the struggle of existence. They level social barriers, build harmonious communities, awaken slumbering magnamity long forgotten, revive joy and hope long abandoned, and promote human brother/sisterhood against the forces of egotism. > Imagine a world like that! Can we have the 4 Sublime states towards the perpetrators of this terrible act??? Maybe a Buddha could, maybe we can if there is Sati at this present moment. > We can be aware of anger and sadness at this moment, as just anger and sadness, not mine, not yours, not lasting, > have courage, Purnomo. < Azita 16365 From: ven.yanatharo.bikkhu Date: Sun Oct 20, 2002 0:43am Subject: RE: [dsg] bali blast Dear Purmono, Today is a Day of mourning here in Australia. I was invited by the Prime Minister to represent the Buddhist Faith in an Interdenominational Service at St. Francis Catholic Cathedral. It was a very moving and sad ceremony but nobody blames the Baliness. We in Australia love your people and your island and we will never blame the Indonesians. With much metta. Venerable Yanatharo -----Mensaje original----- De: azita gill [mailto:gazita2002@y...] Enviado el: Domingo, Octubre 20, 2002 05:06 p.m. Para: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Asunto: Re: [dsg] bali blast --- "Purnomo ." wrote: > > dear friends, > > I think you have heard about Bali blast. The tragedy > that bring some people > wound and died. I am so angry. Bali is my home> > > dear Purnomo, > I think this has affected many people the same way. > I read in an earlier post about the 4 sublime states taught by the Buddha: > Metta, Karuna, Mudita, Upekkha. they are the right or ideal way of conduct towards living beings. They provide the answer to all situations arising from social contact. They are the great removers of tension, the great peace-makers in social conflict and the great healers of wounds suffered in the struggle of existence. They level social barriers, build harmonious communities, awaken slumbering magnamity long forgotten, revive joy and hope long abandoned, and promote human brother/sisterhood against the forces of egotism. > Imagine a world like that! Can we have the 4 Sublime states towards the perpetrators of this terrible act??? Maybe a Buddha could, maybe we can if there is Sati at this present moment. > We can be aware of anger and sadness at this moment, as just anger and sadness, not mine, not yours, not lasting, > have courage, Purnomo. < Azita 16366 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Oct 20, 2002 1:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation and Satipatthana Hi again, Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Jon, > > I guess my point was that reading dhamma, and commentaries on dhamma, > thinking about dhamma, talking about dhamma, writing about dhamma, > attending dhamma talks, and applying these ideas to one's own experience > amounts to dhammanupassana ... To my understanding, the term ‘dhammanpassana’ has a very specific meaning: it refers to a moment of satipatthana (direct experience of the true nature of a presently arising dhamma) only. It does not refer to instances of thinking about dhamma or doing dhamma-related things. This is also true of the other 3 ‘anupassana-s’. They all refer to moments of direct experience of dhammas; they differ only in that they describe direct experience in relation to different kinds of dhammas (however, this distinction need not overly concern us, since it is a distinction made mainly for the purpose of explanation; the 4th anupassana (dhammanupasana) in fact includes all objects of the other 3 anupassana-s also). > ... but I doubt if you will find anything in the > suttas or commentaries about email list groups or flying to Bangkok to > listen to a lecture. Agreed, the various situations you mention here are not spelled out in the sutta or commentaries. But enough situations are given in the sutta to indicate that *any* situation is a situation in which satipatthana can occur (e.g., … when he is going, standing, sitting, lying down, a bhikkhu understands: 'I am going' etc; or just as his body is disposed so he understands it). > ... In other words, the details and particulars of a> practice needn't be spelled out in the commentaries in order to be > legitimate. It seems to me that the details and particulars of the practice *are* given in the sutta itself (contemplating body in body, feeling in feeling, consciousness in consciousness, mental object in mental object). The ‘what is’ is there, but not the ‘how to’. The reason for this, I suggest, is that satipatthana is a matter of the *understanding of things as they truly are*, and this is not something that can be reduced to a technique of any kind. It does not mean that the 'how to' is a matter of whatever anyone finds 'works' for them. Jon 16367 From: Date: Sun Oct 20, 2002 0:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation and Satipatthana Hi, Jon - In a message dated 10/20/02 4:49:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > To my understanding, the term ‘dhammanpassana’ has a very specific > meaning: it refers to a moment of satipatthana (direct experience of the > true nature of a presently arising dhamma) only. It does not refer to > instances of thinking about dhamma or doing dhamma-related things. > > This is also true of the other 3 ‘anupassana-s’. They all refer to > moments of direct experience of dhammas; they differ only in that they > describe direct experience in relation to different kinds of dhammas > (however, this distinction need not overly concern us, since it is a > distinction made mainly for the purpose of explanation; the 4th > anupassana (dhammanupasana) in fact includes all objects of the other 3 > anupassana-s also). > ======================= Jon, do you find this explanation of the difference (or lack of difference) between dhammanupassana and the others completely adequate? (Actually, isn't it more a matter of establishments of mindfulness than of insight? The Satipatthana Sutta is not called the Vipassanapatthana Sutta.) It seems to me that the Buddha surely had a significant distinction in mind in presenting the 4th foundation of mindfulness, and not just leaving it at the first three. It seems to me that one possibility, plausible based on a reading of the sections on the first three foundations, is that conceptualization is essentially involved in these sections, especially in the section on mindfulness of the body, these representing the earlier stages of practice, and that the fourth foundation involves the same objects as the first three, but with mindfulness (and other factors) having led to wisdom so that the elements of body, feelings, and states of mind are seen directly with insight, and with the "dhammas" which constitute the objects of the fourth foundation being paramattha dhammas. (This is not so in the first foundation section. The breath, itself, is not a paramattha dhamma. Neither is walking, nor is knowing that "There is a body", nor is thinking about the body as a sack filled with junk.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16368 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Oct 20, 2002 7:18am Subject: Re: Meeting with Acharn somporn2 --- I add some more about the conversation with A. Somporn. I have mentioned in the past that he was on the governemnt commitee that translates the Tipitaka into Thai. Among his translations include the Abhidhammamattha-sangaha . I asked about being born in the deva world and whether the long life and happy surroundings there were more conducive to Dhamma than our difficult lives as human (this in my very broken Thai with some help from Khun Sujit (khun sujin's sister). He said that the manussia (sp?) the human world is the best as even the Buddha was born here and here the parami are perfected. He said the highest happiness (Kwam suk) is khandha parinnibbana because that is the end of nama and rupa. If the path is right then nibban will be attained if not in this life then in future lives.(I paraphrase as I couldn't understand it all. T.A. Sujin said earlier that day that all the 4 truths are extremly profound and so the 4h truth - path truth- maggasacca is hard to comprehend. That tanha supported by avijja always moves self (sakkya ditthi ) away from understanding the reality of this moment whether it be kusala or akusaa or viapka or kiriya. w Avijja and tanha cannot understand dhamma but they can fool one into thinking there is understanding. If panna arises then there is no self doing anything but there is understanding of the moment. In the paticca samuppada she expalined that avijja paccaya sankhara and sankhara includes kusala and akusala. How does ignorance condition akusala ? Avijja is like the earth that is the basis for all types of plants; both the benefiical and the poisonous. Robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., "rjkjp1" wrote: > I took the opportunity to practice my Thai and learn some Dhamma > when I had lunch with Acharn Somporn and T. A. Sujin today. I've > listened to Somporn in Thai but never spoken with him. He asked how > long I had been studying Abhidhamma and said that khanti (patience ) > is needed to really understand when I told him only 15years. He said > that reading the texts is one aspect but only by understanding > sabhava -realities - directly can there be proper understanding. > Everything is dhamma , whether it be seeing or hearing, colour or > sound, hardness, heat, even avijja (ignorance) is dhamma. There is no > one,no being there at all but because of wrong view the > characteristics (lakkhana ) which are simply conditioned dhamma are > taken as self. This is very deep and subtle sakkya ditthi shows > itself by clinging to wrong practice. > He said if there is real understanding of sabhava dhamma then there > is no fear of death because there is no self in sabhava. > I asked about his life: he was a novice monk at 16 with an interest > in pali and Abhidhamma and was soon giving sermons. At 22 he was > fully ordained and then spent another 10 years as a monk. He has been > a friend of Sujins for almost 50 years and is now a very relaxed > looking 82 years old. > Robert 16369 From: Date: Sun Oct 20, 2002 10:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation and Satipatthana Hi Jon, Two points: 1. Way 11 tika: "just the contemplation of material form (corpreality), of feeling, consciousness or mental objects, constitutes the cultivation of the Arousing of Mindfulness " L: there are many ways of arousing mindfulness, these discussions here are one of them. 2. You wrote: "satipatthana is a matter of the *understanding of things as they truly are*, and this is not something that can be reduced to a technique of any kind. It does not mean that the 'how to' is a matter of whatever anyone finds 'works' for them." L: I think the commentary points out that there are different ways of understanding satipatthana. I agree as a means of understanding realities is valid, but for me it is basically a means of letting go of the proliferation of attachment. As such, I would say technique does play a role and different techniques are more suitable for different people. This discussion is a technique, in my view. Larry 16370 From: Date: Sun Oct 20, 2002 10:58am Subject: "in Arahatship" Way 10: "...having set up the subject of meditation, in Arahatship, in twenty-one places..." Hi Jim, I came up with another reading for this. It is different from the tika, but since there are different readings of "ekayana" I don't see why there couldn't be different readings of "in Arahatship". I have it as "in Arahatship having set up the subject of meditation in 21 places". "Places" meaning that the object of meditation is a place where attention is focused, the breath for instance. "In Arahatship" links to the idea that it is best to receive one's own particular meditation object from an arahat. I rearranged the words a little but it doesn't make that much difference; it's still an awkward construction. We could just as well leave the order as Soma Thera has it. It's just that this way of understanding "in Arahatship" makes more sense to me than as an oblique reference to the 4 truths. Can you think of any objections? Also, it occurred to me that the use of 'place' could be considered as slight inferential support for the idea that the object of satipatthana is a paramattha dhamma rather than a concept, as in jhana. I still maintain that this is a conventional use of 'paramattha dhamma', that there are no pure states of either concept or paramattha dhamma, but this is nevertheless a useful distinction. Larry ps: which is best: arhat, arahat, arahant, or arahanta? 16371 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sun Oct 20, 2002 11:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] ekayana Dear Larry, > Thanks Jim, > > Your comments at least made me more comfortable with my own > bewilderment. I thought maybe I could pick out a clue in the pali, but > it was way beyond me. > > Coincidentally I was in a bookstore today and noticed that Joseph > Goldstein has a new book out called "One Way". It's a broad nontechnical > book covering several traditions but the chapter on satipatthana > actually seems to be following the commentary and for pa~n~naabala he > had "love of wisdom". That seemed pretty apt to me. > > "Helped by" healthy body and mind does make more sense than "happy > with"... I'd like to correct the following from my earlier post: "or (alternatively) having the fire of understanding -- accumulated through repetition" The 'accummulated' is my mistranslation of 'aacin.n.na-' (practised) which I at first thought was derived from the root 'ci' to collect but it turns out that it comes from 'car' (go, wander, roam). For 'aaci.n.na' the PED gives the meanings of "practised, performed, (habitually) indulged in". It just goes to show that I really shouldn't try to give a translation of something that is beyond my capacity or without much further study. The 'anuggahitapa~n~naabala' compound is a difficult one to translate in relation to the healthiness of body and mind. I think Soma's 'happy with' is related to the PED meanings under 'anuggahiita'-- commiserated, made happy, satisfied -- which he associates with the Kurus and their healthy bodies and minds even though anuggahita belongs to the power of knowledge. Reading Pali with limited understanding and limited dictionaries is fraught with such difficulties and one can only guess at the meanings. Best wishes, Jim 16372 From: Brian Kelley Date: Sun Oct 20, 2002 0:03pm Subject: A Question about proximate cause Hello everyone, I was hoping someone here could help me with a question I have. I'm working my way through Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi's "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhdhamma." In the section on ruupa, the part about bhaavaruupa goes: "Material phenomena of sex (bhaavaruupa) are the two faculties of femininity and masculinity. These faculties have, respectively, the characteristic of the female sex and of the male sex. Their function is to show femininity and masculinity. They are manifested as the reason for the mark, sign, work, and ways of the female and of the male; that is, for the sexual structure of the body, for its feminine or masculine features, for the typical feminine or masculine occupations, and for the typical feminine or masculine deportment." While it gives the characteristic, function, and manifestation as expected, the proximate cause of bhaavaruupa is not given. What would the proximate cause of masculinity and femininity be? Thank you in advance for your assistance. With mettaa, Brian Kelley 16373 From: robmoult Date: Sun Oct 20, 2002 3:21pm Subject: Re: A Question about proximate cause Hi Brian, By an amazing coincidence, I asked my teacher the same question a couple of weeks ago (I also asked about the proximate cause of heart base). His reply was: 1)material phenomena of sex -feminine or masculine -is the 4 great elements (mahabhuta) of rupa. 2)material phenomana of heart is also mahabhuta. Refer Vibhavini- The book of analysis Page 421. I was asking this question as I was preparing a chart of all paramattha dhammas listing the characterisitic, function, manifestation and proximate cause for each one and there were the only "blanks". What made you ask this question? Thanks, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Brian Kelley" wrote: > Hello everyone, > > I was hoping someone here could help me with a question I have. I'm > working my way through Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi's "A Comprehensive Manual of > Abhdhamma." In the section on ruupa, the part about bhaavaruupa goes: > > "Material phenomena of sex (bhaavaruupa) are the two faculties of femininity > and masculinity. These faculties have, respectively, the characteristic of the > female sex and of the male sex. Their function is to show femininity and > masculinity. They are manifested as the reason for the mark, sign, work, and > ways of the female and of the male; that is, for the sexual structure of the body, > for its feminine or masculine features, for the typical feminine or masculine > occupations, and for the typical feminine or masculine deportment." > > While it gives the characteristic, function, and manifestation as expected, the > proximate cause of bhaavaruupa is not given. What would the proximate > cause of masculinity and femininity be? > > Thank you in advance for your assistance. > > With mettaa, > Brian Kelley 16374 From: Brian Kelley Date: Sun Oct 20, 2002 4:17pm Subject: Re: A Question about proximate cause Hi Rob, Thank you for your help with this. I suspected it was the 4 great essentials, but I wanted to be certain. The reason I ask is that, as I am attempting to learn this material, I am making what I would describe as a hypertext "model" based on some of the tables found in "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma." The model will consist of several "modules," and I'm beginning with the module on ruupa -- typing in all the information, and cross-referencing and linking things together. The idea for this came out of discussions with my teacher, Andrew Olendzki. Thanks for providing the answer about the primary cause of the heart base; I probably would have been asking about that tomorrow! With metta and gratitude, Brian - In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Brian, > > By an amazing coincidence, I asked my teacher the same question a > couple of weeks ago (I also asked about the proximate cause of heart > base). His reply was: > > 1)material phenomena of sex -feminine or masculine -is the 4 great > elements (mahabhuta) of rupa. > > 2)material phenomana of heart is also mahabhuta. > > Refer Vibhavini- The book of analysis Page 421. > > I was asking this question as I was preparing a chart of all > paramattha dhammas listing the characterisitic, function, > manifestation and proximate cause for each one and there were the > only "blanks". What made you ask this question? > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Brian Kelley" wrote: > > Hello everyone, > > > > I was hoping someone here could help me with a question I have. > I'm > > working my way through Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi's "A Comprehensive > Manual of > > Abhdhamma." In the section on ruupa, the part about bhaavaruupa > goes: > > > > "Material phenomena of sex (bhaavaruupa) are the two faculties of > femininity > > and masculinity. These faculties have, respectively, the > characteristic of the > > female sex and of the male sex. Their function is to show > femininity and > > masculinity. They are manifested as the reason for the mark, sign, > work, and > > ways of the female and of the male; that is, for the sexual > structure of the body, > > for its feminine or masculine features, for the typical feminine > or masculine > > occupations, and for the typical feminine or masculine deportment." > > > > While it gives the characteristic, function, and manifestation as > expected, the > > proximate cause of bhaavaruupa is not given. What would the > proximate > > cause of masculinity and femininity be? > > > > Thank you in advance for your assistance. > > > > With mettaa, > > Brian Kelley 16375 From: Date: Sun Oct 20, 2002 4:37pm Subject: Way 14, Comm. "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html Continuing commentary on, "for the destruction of suffering and grief" Sakka, king of the gods, after seeing the five portents, afraid of death and grief-stricken, came to the Buddha and asked a question; at the close of the answering of that question by the Buddha, Sakka was established in the first stage of arahantship. Eighty thousand other gods were established together with Sakka in the same stage of sanctity. And the life of Sakka again was restored to just its original state [Tika] through his rebirth once more as the king of the gods. Further it is said that Subrahma the god was partaking of the delights of paradise in the company of a thousand heavenly nymphs. There, five hundred of the nymphs, while picking flowers from a tree, died and were reborn in a state of woe. He, having seen their rebirth in a state of woe and having understood that the end of his own life was approaching and that he too would at death be reborn in that very state of woe, was frightened. Then he went to the Buddha with his five hundred remaining nymphs and said this to the Lord: The heart is always in a state of fear, And is always full of anguish drear, Concerning things that have now taken place, All things which shortly I shall have to face. If there's a place that's free from ev'ry fear, That fear-free place wilt thou to me make clear?[13] The Blessed One replied to him as follows: Besides the wakening factors of the truth, Besides the virtues of the holy state, Besides restraint and relinquishment full, I see nothing that can bless living beings.[14] At the end of the instruction, Subrahma and his five hundred nymphs were established in the first stage of awakening, and he, it is said, returned to his paradise, having made firm the heavenly fortunate state of life that was his before. It should be understood that this way developed in this manner is conducive to the destruction of grief of those like Sakka. 13. Samyutta Nikaya I, P. 53. P.T.S. Edition 14. Samyutta Nikaya i, p.54. P.T.S. Edition 16376 From: Date: Sun Oct 20, 2002 4:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 14, Comm. The Blessed One replied to him as follows: Besides the wakening factors of the truth, Besides the virtues of the holy state, Besides restraint and relinquishment full, I see nothing that can bless living beings.[14] 14. Samyutta Nikaya i, p.54. P.T.S. Edition Hi all, Does anyone know if this sutta is on-line? Also, what does it mean? Larry 16377 From: robmoult Date: Sun Oct 20, 2002 5:09pm Subject: Re: A Question about proximate cause Hi Brian, Glad to help. Sounds like an interesting project. Please tell me more about it. I teach a beginners class in Abhidhamma each Sunday morning in Kuala Lumpur. You might want to download my class notes in the files section of the DSG. This is work in progress and I update the on- line version each month. I am currently working on Conditional Relations. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Brian Kelley" wrote: > Hi Rob, > > Thank you for your help with this. I suspected it was the 4 great essentials, > but I wanted to be certain. > > The reason I ask is that, as I am attempting to learn this material, I am making > what I would describe as a hypertext "model" based on some of the tables > found in "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma." The model will consist > of several "modules," and I'm beginning with the module on ruupa -- typing in > all the information, and cross-referencing and linking things together. The > idea for this came out of discussions with my teacher, Andrew Olendzki. > > Thanks for providing the answer about the primary cause of the heart base; I > probably would have been asking about that tomorrow! > > With metta and gratitude, > Brian > > > > - In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi Brian, > > > > By an amazing coincidence, I asked my teacher the same question a > > couple of weeks ago (I also asked about the proximate cause of heart > > base). His reply was: > > > > 1)material phenomena of sex -feminine or masculine -is the 4 great > > elements (mahabhuta) of rupa. > > > > 2)material phenomana of heart is also mahabhuta. > > > > Refer Vibhavini- The book of analysis Page 421. > > > > I was asking this question as I was preparing a chart of all > > paramattha dhammas listing the characterisitic, function, > > manifestation and proximate cause for each one and there were the > > only "blanks". What made you ask this question? > > > > Thanks, > > Rob M :-) > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Brian Kelley" wrote: > > > Hello everyone, > > > > > > I was hoping someone here could help me with a question I have. > > I'm > > > working my way through Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi's "A Comprehensive > > Manual of > > > Abhdhamma." In the section on ruupa, the part about bhaavaruupa > > goes: > > > > > > "Material phenomena of sex (bhaavaruupa) are the two faculties of > > femininity > > > and masculinity. These faculties have, respectively, the > > characteristic of the > > > female sex and of the male sex. Their function is to show > > femininity and > > > masculinity. They are manifested as the reason for the mark, sign, > > work, and > > > ways of the female and of the male; that is, for the sexual > > structure of the body, > > > for its feminine or masculine features, for the typical feminine > > or masculine > > > occupations, and for the typical feminine or masculine deportment." > > > > > > While it gives the characteristic, function, and manifestation as > > expected, the > > > proximate cause of bhaavaruupa is not given. What would the > > proximate > > > cause of masculinity and femininity be? > > > > > > Thank you in advance for your assistance. > > > > > > With mettaa, > > > Brian Kelley 16378 From: Date: Sun Oct 20, 2002 6:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 14, Comm. Hi all, Here is an essay by B. Bodhi on Subrahma's anxiety. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/news/essay37.html Larry 16379 From: Sarah Date: Sun Oct 20, 2002 9:16pm Subject: One Sure Way Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 06:04:48 -0700 From: "Michael Olds" Hello again, I actually think that directing my "responses" to someone other than the one with whom I find disagreement is something that falls into proper etiquette as practiced at the time of the Buddha. Many times we find that when some person has spoken in error, in stead of speaking to that person directly in responding, the Buddha will speak to Ananda. So, if you permit I would like to ask you, with regard to the following quote from the ekayana discussion: Q: "When arousing of mindfulness is mentioned the 8-fold path is implied. QUESTION: Does this mean that when satipatthana is practiced the entire 8-fold path is practiced?" A: "N: No, usually the fivefold, sometimes sixfold. The three abstinences arise together when the Path is lokuttara, then it is eightfold." How does this square with the fact that the fourth of the Satipatthanas, regarding things from the viewpoint of the Dhamma, culminates in regarding things from the viewpoint of the Four Truths (and in the case of the MahaSatipatthana, the Eightfold Path), and the Four Truths is identical with Samma Ditthi which includes, as it's fourth element, the Eightfold Path? Or, alternatively, if, as it is said here, only the five-fold or sixfold path is intended, how does this statement square with the fact that this too includes Samma Ditthi which includes the Four Truths which includes as it's fourth, the Eightfold path. Seeing this, one can see that even if one limits one's "Path" to the one step, Samma Ditthi, there is sufficient scope to that to take one to the goal. Again, from another angle, the Satipatthanas are not practiced in sequence, but describe a sequence of experiences that evolve into each other so that, for example, seeing that one's own body is of precisely the same nature as a decaying corpse, if it is, in fact seen that way, implies seeing sense experience (vedana), emotions (cita), and the Dhamma, and is at lease a small taste of Nibbana here and now. The way this business of a worldly path and a super-worldly path is being understood is off track. Taking just the Satipatthana, which is only one example, and granting that one who is just beginning, begins from the worldly path, following the Satipatthana to it's conclusion one arrives at The Four Truths which ends in the Magga, which ends with Samma Samadhi, which ends with Upekkha which, when seen as freedom and when freedom is seen as freedom (that is, when the situation has been made conscious), is a synonym for Nibbana. If a path leads to the goal, how can it be regarded as worldly? It cannot. It is only the attitude of individuals towards that path that can be distinguished as worldly or not. (Sariputta does not say: "There is a worldly path and an Unworldly Path"; he says "there is a taking on of the Path which is Worldly and there is a taking on of the Path which is unworldly," and he goes on to describe it as a matter of attitude.) If one approaches the dhamma, attaining step-by-step each of it's accomplishments, with the idea of gain (fame, power, status, etc.) then one has walked the worldly path; if at each level of progress one does not exalt the self or disparage others but simply evaluates the situation for what it is, seeing that there is more to be done and setting out for it's accomplishment, then one is walking the path of the Higher Dhamma. Some references: See: PTS: Middle Length Sayings, I: #19: Discourse on the Twofold Thought, pp.148 PTS: Greater Discourse on the (Ways of) undertaking Dhamma, I.372 and: Majjhima:114. Sevitabbasevitabba Sutta (Sevitabbaasevitabba), III.45 Middle Length Sayings: WP: To Be Cultivated and Not To Be Cultivated, 913 PTS: Discourse on what is to be Followed and what is not to be Followed, III.94 16380 From: robmoult Date: Sun Oct 20, 2002 9:21pm Subject: Re: A Question about proximate cause Hi Brian, Since you are focusing on Ven. U Silananda's tables in CMA, you would probably be interested in his corrections (reviewed by BB, but not yet included in CMA). See my message 15720 for details. I am curious as to why you would choose to start with rupa. I would have thought that rupas would come nearer the end; cittas and cetasikas are traditionally discussed first. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Brian, > > Glad to help. > > Sounds like an interesting project. Please tell me more about it. > > I teach a beginners class in Abhidhamma each Sunday morning in Kuala > Lumpur. You might want to download my class notes in the files > section of the DSG. This is work in progress and I update the on- > line version each month. I am currently working on Conditional > Relations. > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Brian Kelley" wrote: > > Hi Rob, > > > > Thank you for your help with this. I suspected it was the 4 great > essentials, > > but I wanted to be certain. > > > > The reason I ask is that, as I am attempting to learn this > material, I am making > > what I would describe as a hypertext "model" based on some of the > tables > > found in "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma." The model will > consist > > of several "modules," and I'm beginning with the module on ruupa -- > typing in > > all the information, and cross-referencing and linking things > together. The > > idea for this came out of discussions with my teacher, Andrew > Olendzki. > > > > Thanks for providing the answer about the primary cause of the > heart base; I > > probably would have been asking about that tomorrow! > > > > With metta and gratitude, > > Brian > > > > > > > > - In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robmoult" wrote: > > > Hi Brian, > > > > > > By an amazing coincidence, I asked my teacher the same question > a > > > couple of weeks ago (I also asked about the proximate cause of > heart > > > base). His reply was: > > > > > > 1)material phenomena of sex -feminine or masculine -is the 4 > great > > > elements (mahabhuta) of rupa. > > > > > > 2)material phenomana of heart is also mahabhuta. > > > > > > Refer Vibhavini- The book of analysis Page 421. > > > > > > I was asking this question as I was preparing a chart of all > > > paramattha dhammas listing the characterisitic, function, > > > manifestation and proximate cause for each one and there were > the > > > only "blanks". What made you ask this question? > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Rob M :-) > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Brian Kelley" > wrote: > > > > Hello everyone, > > > > > > > > I was hoping someone here could help me with a question I > have. > > > I'm > > > > working my way through Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi's "A Comprehensive > > > Manual of > > > > Abhdhamma." In the section on ruupa, the part about > bhaavaruupa > > > goes: > > > > > > > > "Material phenomena of sex (bhaavaruupa) are the two faculties > of > > > femininity > > > > and masculinity. These faculties have, respectively, the > > > characteristic of the > > > > female sex and of the male sex. Their function is to show > > > femininity and > > > > masculinity. They are manifested as the reason for the mark, > sign, > > > work, and > > > > ways of the female and of the male; that is, for the sexual > > > structure of the body, > > > > for its feminine or masculine features, for the typical > feminine > > > or masculine > > > > occupations, and for the typical feminine or masculine > deportment." > > > > > > > > While it gives the characteristic, function, and manifestation > as > > > expected, the > > > > proximate cause of bhaavaruupa is not given. What would the > > > proximate > > > > cause of masculinity and femininity be? > > > > > > > > Thank you in advance for your assistance. > > > > > > > > With mettaa, > > > > Brian Kelley 16381 From: Sarah Date: Sun Oct 20, 2002 10:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Back from retreat, 1 & 2 Hi Brian, --- Brian Kelley wrote: > Hello everyone, > > I've just joined this group at Howard's suggestion. ..... > I look forward to continuing in this group as I continue my first baby > steps in > studying the Abhidhamma. ..... I’m glad Howard encouraged you to share your Abhidhamma studies and interest with us and I hope you find it useful here on DSG. We’re all taking baby steps and falling over from time to time in the process;-). Just a couple of brief comments: ..... > Hi everyone, > > Just returned from a weeklong introduction to the Abhidhamma at the > Barre > Center for Buddhist Studies. It was a delightful week, filled with many > of > those very pleasurable moments of "Aha! Now I understand." > > We were blessed with two wonderful teachers. In the mornings and > afternoons, we delved into Bhikkhu Bodhi's "A Comprehensive Manual of > Abhidhamma," with Andrew Olendzki, a Pali scholar and the Director of > BCBS. ..... This sounds very worthwhile and I’m glad to see you continued interest in your other posts with Rob M. I’m glad to hear the week was so pleasurable too;-) ...... >In the evenings, we were taught by Sister Susila, a nun visiting > from a > monastery in Burma. She gave us another perspective on the material, and > 1.> taught us how, in her monastery, the Abhidhamma informs and guides their > > meditation practice. > Jack: Was there a practice component to the teachings? > Brian: Very much so, especially from Sister Susila. At the outset, we > were > told (by Andy Olendzki) that at Sister's monastery (Pa Auk Tawga, a > forest 2.> monastery in southern Burma) students don't even approach the > Abhidhamma until they have developed the jhanas in their meditation > practice. Very strong concentration is required so that one can begin to > > actually see these states as they arise. ...... I’ve given numbers above to two of the points. Hmmm, 1) makes much more sense to me than 2) which raises many questions about what jhana is, what meditation is and what Abhidhamma is. ..... > During the week, in addition to the classroom teachings, Sister also > gave > meditation instructions: one on how to use mindfulness of breathing > (after > which she described the process for developing access concentration and > the > jhanas), ..... Is it so simple, I wonder? ..... and another on the analysis of the four elements. In the > analysis of > the four elements, one moves one's attention systematically through the > body > and feels the sensations of each of the characteristics of the 4 > elements (12 > characteristics altogether.) For the earth element, one would feel: > hardness, > roughness, heaviness, softness, smoothness, and lightness. For water > element: flowing and cohesion. ...... Are you sure that water element can be experienced through the bodysense with attention (or without attention for that matter)? ..... For fire element: hot and cold. For air > element: supporting and pushing. (It was said that the analysis of the > four > elements can lead to access concentration, but not to jhana.) I enjoyed > doing > the four element meditation very much, but it can be very tiring to the > mind, > especially at first. ..... What is the purpose of this practice? If the mental states are pure or wholesome, can it be tiring? In any case, I’m very glad that you’ve come away with greater interest in the Abhidhamma and in understanding phenomena “with greater precision and finer detail”. I think this helps a lot. Slowly we can begin to see that abhidhamma is just what is experiencing and being experienced at this moment. It’s not what is in a textbook or a list, but that which can be directly known by right understanding as I'm sure you know too. Thank you for sharing and look forward to hearing more from you, Brian. Whereabouts in the States do you live, out of interest? Pls share anything else about your interest in the dhamma. Thanks too, Howard.......I’d be glad to hear your comments too;-) Sarah ====== 16382 From: Sarah Date: Sun Oct 20, 2002 10:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cemetery Contemplations Dear Peter, Welcome to DSG too. --- Peter DaCosta wrote: > > Hi Christine > > For the practice of applying any Pali contemplation to daily life to > have any value, an open mind for the entire range of meaning is > important, so that what ever was appropriate for any situation could be > called upon, depending on the context of time and place. ..... You were responding to Christine’s comments on the use of terms such as ‘lust’ and ‘hate’ and I think your comments are very appropriate and helpful. ..... > For most people, in most situations, the extreme end of the scale would > be seldom if ever applicable, but in moment to moment awareness in the > general flow of everyday life, the most subtle interpretations are very > often the most useful. ..... Yes and perhaps what seems subtle now, will seem very gross with more understanding and awareness. I’m sure we can all think of examples of past deeds or thoughts that didn’t seem so bad at the time, but with more consideration now can appear as pretty gross. ..... > An experimental approach is probably the most useful. ...... Yes and one that acknowledges that our present perceptions are clouded with a lot of ignorance, I think. ...... > Cheers > Peter > > > peterd@p... ...... Hope you’ll also tell us a little more about your interest in the Teachings, Peter and where you live in the UK. (I come from Sussex, but have been living overseas for the last 20 years or so). Sarah ===== 16383 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sun Oct 20, 2002 10:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "in Arahatship" Hi Larry, > Way 10: "...having set up the subject of meditation, in Arahatship, in > twenty-one places..." > > Hi Jim, > > I came up with another reading for this. It is different from the tika, > but since there are different readings of "ekayana" I don't see why > there couldn't be different readings of "in Arahatship". "in Arahatship" is 'arahatte' in Pali with the locative singular termination '-e' represented by the 'in' in the English and depending on the context other prepositions or prepositional phrases can be read such as the 'pertaining to' I chose in my earlier translation. Until we can determine the correct usage in the passage, a number of varied readings are possible. Note that the commentary itself gives five acceptable readings for ekaayano whereas none are given for arahatte but the subco. does give us some clue as to how it should be read. > I have it as "in Arahatship having set up the subject of meditation in > 21 places". "Places" meaning that the object of meditation is a place > where attention is focused, the breath for instance. "In Arahatship" > links to the idea that it is best to receive one's own particular > meditation object from an arahat. I rearranged the words a little but it > doesn't make that much difference; it's still an awkward construction. > We could just as well leave the order as Soma Thera has it. It's just > that this way of understanding "in Arahatship" makes more sense to me > than as an oblique reference to the 4 truths. Can you think of any > objections? Although I agree that an arahant is the best one to approach for receiving the meditation subject, I don't think "in Arahatship" is related to this idea. I have come across three passages in the commentary which I think will help us better understand the relevance of "in Arahatship". They are: At the very end of the commentary: "The Blessed One pointed out the teaching thus: "Bhikkhus, my Dispensation leads to Deliverance in this way," closed the instruction that is crowned with Arahantship in twenty-one places and uttered the following words: "This is the only way, o bhikkhus, [...] Jim: I take "crowned with Arahantship in twenty-one places" to mean that each of the 21 subjects of meditation is crowned with arahantship. Also near the end is found a list of the 21: "With this have been stated the following twenty-one subjects of meditation: Breathing, Modes of Deportments, the Method of the Thirty-two Parts of the Body, the Determination of the Four Modes of Materiality (or the Four Elements), the Nine Cemetery Contemplations, Contemplation of Feeling, Contemplation of Consciousness, the Laying Hold on the Hindrances, the Laying Hold on the Aggregates, the Laying Hold on the Sense-bases, the Laying Hold on the Enlightenment Factors, and the Laying Hold on the Truths. The Cemetery Contemplations are counted separately." At the end of The Section on Breathing: "In this section on breathing, the mindfulness which examines the respirations is the Truth of Suffering. The pre-craving which brings about that mindfulness is the Truth of Origination. The non-occurrence of both is the Truth of Cessation. The Real Path which understands suffering, abandons origination, and takes cessation as object, is the Truth of the Way. Thus having endeavored by way of the Four Truths, a person arrives at peace. This is the portal to emancipation of the bhikkhu devoted to meditation on breathing." And similarly at the end of each section for the remaining 20 subjects of meditation. This tells me that any one of the 21 meditation subjects is sufficient to lead one to the four noble truths and the attainment of arahantship but it's not so easy to know which is the best one to take up without the help of an enlightened one or someone well-advanced on the path. So perhaps instead of Soma's "...having set up the subject of meditation, in Arahatship, in twenty-one places...", "...having set up a subject of meditation for (attaining) Arahatship in twenty-one places..." would be clearer. > ps: which is best: arhat, arahat, arahant, or arahanta? In Theravada-related English writing 'arahant' is probably the best choice. arhat is the Skt form used in Mahayana writing. Best wishes, Jim 16384 From: jinavamsa Date: Sun Oct 20, 2002 10:38pm Subject: 21 subjects Date: Mon Oct 21, 2002 3:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 14, Comm. --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi all, > > Here is an essay by B. Bodhi on Subrahma's anxiety. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/news/essay37.html > > Larry > Dear Larry, > I have just read this and find it amazing. It's so beautifully written, so clear, so helpful. > thank you, > > Azita > 16386 From: Brian Kelley Date: Mon Oct 21, 2002 6:52am Subject: Re: A Question about proximate cause Hi Rob, A friend sent me the corrections and I printed them out and took them with me to the course. So you were helping me even before we began discussing here. Thank you. I'm starting with the table for ruupa because that was what we began with at the course at BCBS (after the initial introduction and overview). I would have to ask my teacher why he chose to have us begin there. But it makes a certain amount of intuitive sense to me: to begin with the four primary elements, and build from there. With metta, Brian --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Brian, > > Since you are focusing on Ven. U Silananda's tables in CMA, you > would probably be interested in his corrections (reviewed by BB, but > not yet included in CMA). See my message 15720 for details. > > I am curious as to why you would choose to start with rupa. I would > have thought that rupas would come nearer the end; cittas and > cetasikas are traditionally discussed first. > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi Brian, > > > > Glad to help. > > > > Sounds like an interesting project. Please tell me more about it. > > > > I teach a beginners class in Abhidhamma each Sunday morning in > Kuala > > Lumpur. You might want to download my class notes in the files > > section of the DSG. This is work in progress and I update the on- > > line version each month. I am currently working on Conditional > > Relations. > > > > Thanks, > > Rob M :-) > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Brian Kelley" wrote: > > > Hi Rob, > > > > > > Thank you for your help with this. I suspected it was the 4 > great > > essentials, > > > but I wanted to be certain. > > > > > > The reason I ask is that, as I am attempting to learn this > > material, I am making > > > what I would describe as a hypertext "model" based on some of > the > > tables > > > found in "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma." The model will > > consist > > > of several "modules," and I'm beginning with the module on > ruupa -- > > typing in > > > all the information, and cross-referencing and linking things > > together. The > > > idea for this came out of discussions with my teacher, Andrew > > Olendzki. > > > > > > Thanks for providing the answer about the primary cause of the > > heart base; I > > > probably would have been asking about that tomorrow! > > > > > > With metta and gratitude, > > > Brian > > > > > > > > > > > > - In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robmoult" wrote: > > > > Hi Brian, > > > > > > > > By an amazing coincidence, I asked my teacher the same > question > > a > > > > couple of weeks ago (I also asked about the proximate cause of > > heart > > > > base). His reply was: > > > > > > > > 1)material phenomena of sex -feminine or masculine -is the 4 > > great > > > > elements (mahabhuta) of rupa. > > > > > > > > 2)material phenomana of heart is also mahabhuta. > > > > > > > > Refer Vibhavini- The book of analysis Page 421. > > > > > > > > I was asking this question as I was preparing a chart of all > > > > paramattha dhammas listing the characterisitic, function, > > > > manifestation and proximate cause for each one and there were > > the > > > > only "blanks". What made you ask this question? > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Rob M :-) > > > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Brian Kelley" > > wrote: 16387 From: Brian Kelley Date: Mon Oct 21, 2002 7:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Back from retreat, 1 & 2 Hi Sarah, Thank you for the nice welcome. It's lovely to be here. You wrote: > > During the week, in addition to the classroom teachings, Sister also > > gave meditation instructions: one on how to use mindfulness of breathing > > (after which she described the process for developing access concentration and the jhanas), > ..... > Is it so simple, I wonder? I'm sorry if I gave the impression that it was simple. I was merely summarizing the information Sister Susila gave, rather than trying to recapitulate it all. No, it wasn't simple, far from it. > and another on the analysis of the four elements. In the > > analysis of > > the four elements, one moves one's attention systematically through the > > body > > and feels the sensations of each of the characteristics of the 4 > > elements (12 characteristics altogether.) For the earth element, one would feel:hardness, roughness, heaviness, softness, smoothness, and lightness. >>For water element: flowing and cohesion. > ...... > Are you sure that water element can be experienced through the bodysense > with attention (or without attention for that matter)? No, the water element is known through inference, not directly through touch. We were given a handout describing the 4 elements meditation, and this point was made explicit: "Note: The above ten characteristics are all known directly through the sense of touch, but the last two characteristics, flowing and cohesion, are known by inference based upon the other ten characteristics. That is a good reason to teach them last." > For fire element: hot and cold. For air > > element: supporting and pushing. (It was said that the analysis of the > > four > > elements can lead to access concentration, but not to jhana.) I enjoyed > > doing > > the four element meditation very much, but it can be very tiring to the > > mind, > > especially at first. > ..... > What is the purpose of this practice? If the mental states are pure or > wholesome, can it be tiring? > As to the purpose of this practice, I can only answer according to my quite limited understanding: 1) that the characteristics of the elements are to be known directly in the body, which leads to seeing just the elements and not a person or self, and 2) that this method can lead to the development of access concentration. As for its being tiring: this particular practice involved moving the attention throughout the body in a systematic way, from the top of the head down to the soles of the feet, then back up again. Moving the attention in this way can be fatiguing until one gets used to it. Also, it was near the end of the day, so that may have played a part. > In any case, I'm very glad that you've come away with greater interest in > the Abhidhamma and in understanding phenomena "with greater precision and > finer detail". I think this helps a lot. Slowly we can begin to see that > abhidhamma is just what is experiencing and being experienced at this > moment. It's not what is in a textbook or a list, but that which can be > directly known by right understanding as I'm sure you know too. Yes, exactly. Knowing realities as they occur. > Thank you for sharing and look forward to hearing more from you, Brian. > Whereabouts in the States do you live, out of interest? Pls share anything > else about your interest in the dhamma. Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot to introduce myself. My name is Brian Kelley. My wife, Gini, and I live in a rural area of northeastern New York state, in the foothills of the Adirondack mountains. Before this introduction to the Abhidhamma, my primary area of study has been the Sutta Pitaka. For the past few years, my meditation practice has focused on anapanasati and cultivating metta. I frequently attend retreats at the Barre Center for Buddhist Studies in Barre, Massachusetts (about 3 and a half hours away from where we live). The focus at BCBS is to integrate scholarly understanding and meditative insight. Thanks so much for letting this yogi eavesdrop on your discussions. With metta, Brian 16388 From: Date: Mon Oct 21, 2002 8:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] "in Arahatship" Dear Jinavasam!, Jim, Larry, and all. I hope you guys don’t mind me butting in. I have not followed the whole thread. Please pardom me if I miss some of the relevant points. In abhidhammathahasangaha 21 objects of satipatthana 1) Breathing 2) Modes of deportment (7) 3) Clear comprehension (4) 4) Repulsiveness of the body (32) 5) Major dhatus (4) 6)-14) nine cemetery contemplation 15) Feelings (9 sections in here, all can be categorized into vedana cetasika) 16) Consciousness (16 sections in here, all can be categorized under citta) 17) Hindrances (5) 18) Aggregates (5) 19) Ayatanas (12) 20) Factors of enlightenment (7) 21) Truths (4) 1st-14th: kayanupassanasatipatthana 15th: vedananupassanasatipatthana 16th: cittanupassanasatipatthana 17th-21st: dhammanupassanasatipatthana This sutta was taught in a “nothing left-out” manner (nippadesa). All realities are listed here. I guess the word “place” was a translation of “thana”, the bases (objects) of sati. Anumodhana. Num >>><<< Also near the end is found a list of the 21: "With this have been stated the following twenty-one subjects of meditation: Breathing, Modes of Deportments, the Method of the Thirty-two Parts of the Body, the Determination of the Four Modes of Materiality (or the Four Elements), the Nine Cemetery Contemplations, Contemplation of Feeling, Contemplation of Consciousness, the Laying Hold on the Hindrances, the Laying Hold on the Aggregates, the Laying Hold on the Sense- bases, the Laying Hold on the Enlightenment Factors, and the Laying Hold on the Truths. The Cemetery Contemplations are counted separately." I am trying to see how this list could be taken to be a list of 21 subject of meditaiton. Obviously the second in the list (the Method of the 32 parts of the body) cannot be taken as indicating 32 subjects of meditation, for that would already be greater than 21. (My elementary math skills still being intact!) So perhaps that would count as one subject. If each item mentioned is counted as one subject, I count here 12, not counting the cemetary contemplations. Given the importance of order in Arabic-Indian numberals, 12 does not equal 21. Maybe there is something here simple and clear to come to the number 21 in considering this list. That would be welcome. >>><<< 16389 From: robmoult Date: Mon Oct 21, 2002 8:51am Subject: Re: A Question about proximate cause Hi Brian, --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Brian Kelley" wrote: > I'm starting with the table for ruupa because that was what we began with at > the course at BCBS (after the initial introduction and overview). I would have > to ask my teacher why he chose to have us begin there. But it makes a > certain amount of intuitive sense to me: to begin with the four primary > elements, and build from there. Interesting concept, starting with rupas. Different strokes for different folks. If you are interested in rupas, Nina's book, "Rupas" is excellent: http://www.zolag.co.uk/ebook.html If you are interested in a concise summary, I have compressed Nina's book into 12 pages. It will be part of the next update of class notes in ten days time or if you want it sooner, please send me a note off-line at rob.moult@j... and I will reply with the attachment. Thanks, Rob M :-) 16390 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 21, 2002 10:00am Subject: the verse after Pitamalla. Hi Larry and all, as promised, here is the Pali of the verse in the Co : ``bhaasita.m buddhase.t.thassa, sabbalokaggavaadino. na tumhaakamida.m ruupa.m, ta.m jaheyyaatha bhikkhavo.. aniccaa vata sa"nkhaaraa, uppaadavayadhammino. uppajjitvaa nirujjhanti, tesa.m vuupasamo sukho''ti.. translation by Ven. Soma: The world of the Fully Awakened Man, the Chief, Holder of Right Views in all the world is this: Give up this form, disciples; it is not yours. Fleeting truly are component things, Ruled by laws of growth and decay; What is produced, to dissolution swings; Happy it is when things at rest do stay. N: the last sentence was strange: vuupasamo means calm or cessation. An attempt: after they have arisen they cease. Their cessation is happy. I would say: happiness. Maybe Jim would like to add? Rob Ed (Pali list) explained how not to translate verses, the text gets distorted when one tries to place the words in the same way as the Pali verse. Nina. 16391 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 21, 2002 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meeting with Acharn somporn Dear Rob K I was so happy with your post on A. Somporn and Lodewijk also appreciated it very much. How true that we cannot understand the texts unless there is also awareness and understanding of sabhava dhammas. And no fear of death! I have known him for many years. I hear his calm, reassuring voice when I read this post. He speaks slowly. He knows the whole Pali dictionary by heart, and can explain roots of a word at any given moment. He inspired me to go on with my Pali study. With appreciation, Nina op 20-10-2002 08:42 schreef rjkjp1 op rjkjp1@y...: > I took the opportunity to practice my Thai and learn some Dhamma > when I had lunch with Acharn Somporn and T. A. Sujin today. I've > listened to Somporn in Thai but never spoken with him. He asked how > long I had been studying Abhidhamma and said that khanti (patience ) > is needed to really understand when I told him only 15years. He said > that reading the texts is one aspect but only by understanding > sabhava -realities - directly can there be proper understanding. > Everything is dhamma , whether it be seeing or hearing, colour or > sound, hardness, heat, even avijja (ignorance) is dhamma. There is no > one,no being there at all but because of wrong view the > characteristics (lakkhana ) which are simply conditioned dhamma are > taken as self. This is very deep and subtle sakkya ditthi shows > itself by clinging to wrong practice. > He said if there is real understanding of sabhava dhamma then there > is no fear of death because there is no self in sabhava. > I asked about his life: he was a novice monk at 16 with an interest > in pali and Abhidhamma and was soon giving sermons. At 22 he was > fully ordained and then spent another 10 years as a monk. He has been > a friend of Sujins for almost 50 years and is now a very relaxed > looking 82 years old. > Robert 16392 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 21, 2002 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation and Satipatthana Dear Jon, I appreciate very much your reminders of the practice in this post. I just have one question about dhammanusati, recollection of dhamma as a subject of samatha. There cannot be satipatthana often, infact, it seldom arises for me. There can be pondering on the Dhamma with kusala citta, without direct awareness. However, aversion with tiredness or aversion because of finding the matter difficult is also bound to arise. Can it not happen (without trying) that there are moments of samatha? And then, this does not exclude that some moments of awareness can arise too in between. Nobody can choose anything. Samatha and satipatthana could alternately arise. Ven. Dhammadharo first brought it to my attention that studying Dhamma can be Dhammanupassana. When we reflect on it that thanks to the Buddha there can be a beginning of understanding realities, is that not samatha? The other day you reminded us that there should also be awareness of this reflection, and I appreciate this. Otherwise we are carried away by our pleasant feeling or happiness about our confidence in the Buddha, how easily can that happen. Maybe a good point to bring up when in Bgk. I just like to quote from a post by Rob K about samatha and insight: A good reminder not to have desire for the Recollections, as being so kusala. Nina. op 20-10-2002 10:49 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: > Hi again, Larry > > To my understanding, the term ‘dhammanpassana’ has a very specific > meaning: it refers to a moment of satipatthana (direct experience of the > true nature of a presently arising dhamma) only. It does not refer to > instances of thinking about dhamma or doing dhamma-related things. > > This is also true of the other 3 ‘anupassana-s’. They all refer to > moments of direct experience of dhammas; they differ only in that they > describe direct experience in relation to different kinds of dhammas > (however, this distinction need not overly concern us, since it is a > distinction made mainly for the purpose of explanation; the 4th > anupassana (dhammanupasana) in fact includes all objects of the other 3 > anupassana-s also). > >> ... but I doubt if you will find anything in the >> suttas or commentaries about email list groups or flying to Bangkok to >> listen to a lecture. > > Agreed, the various situations you mention here are not spelled out in the > sutta or commentaries. But enough situations are given in the sutta to > indicate that *any* situation is a situation in which satipatthana can > occur (e.g., … when he is going, standing, sitting, lying down, a bhikkhu > understands: 'I am going' etc; or just as his body is disposed so he > understands it). > >> ... In other words, the details and particulars of a> practice > needn't be spelled out in the commentaries in order to be >> legitimate. > > It seems to me that the details and particulars of the practice *are* > given in the sutta itself (contemplating body in body, feeling in feeling, > consciousness in consciousness, mental object in mental object). The > ‘what is’ is there, but not the ‘how to’. The reason for this, I suggest, > is that satipatthana is a matter of the *understanding of things as they > truly are*, and this is not something that can be reduced to a technique > of any kind. It does not mean that the 'how to' is a matter of whatever > anyone finds 'works' for them. 16393 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 21, 2002 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 13, Comm. Hi Larry, op 19-10-2002 22:01 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...:> > Maybe I am getting stuck on the technical characteristics of panna. For > example, its proximate cause is concentration. N: a proximate cause arises together with the reality it is proximate cause for. There must be concentration arising with panna. It depends on the individual what degree. L: Sanna, vinnana, and panna > are all 'understanding'. Plus there are 12 different kinds of panna; > none of which I have investigated yet. N: these are different cetasikas, different functions. There are more then 12 kinds of panna, it can be classified in manifold ways. L: Plus I don't understand what is > included in individual essense (sabhava) and what isn't. N: sabhava: with its own nature or characteristic. Refers to ultimate reality. L: And really I > have yet to see the instruction to regard something as impermanent, > dukkha, anatta explicitly linked to mindfulness. And also under "How is > it [panna] developed" it doesn't explicitly say "satipatthana". So there > is a lot to investigate here. N: Agreed. The three characteristics can only be realized by panna of higher stages of insight, developed panna. How is it developed: by being directly aware of the sabhava dhamma appearing now. Do you have aversion because you find the material difficult? That is a sabhava dhamma. > L: I know 'satipatthana' is also a general term that includes anything in > the 8-fold path. N: The development of satipatthana is the same as the development of the mundane fivefold (sometimes sixfold) Path. When we go to the four Applications in detail it will be clearer that the objects of understanding are ultimate realities, not concepts. A. Sompong said to Rob K: patience. Let me repeat from a post by Sarah: ***** Nina. 16394 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 21, 2002 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ayatana re-revisit. Dear Num, thank you very much for all the details about ayatana. It is now clearer that the eyebase has not fallen away yet during the process. Just a question: Num: Let me try to put the information together: A.Sujin asked us to read from Vism > and > Vibhanga regarding the definitions of ayatana. Briefly from Vibhanga, Vism and > Abms: ayatana means 1) a dwelling place (nivasa, nissayapaccaya) for cittas > and > cetasikas, 2) a birthplace (sa~njati) for cittas and cetasikas, 3) bringing > along > (akara) 4) a meeting place (samosarana) for cittas, cetasikas, dvara, and > arammana, and 5) a root (hetu, karana). Nina: I find aakara, in English mine, or place of production a difficult term to understand. Maybe: if there is no physical base, no citta and cetasikas? 5: karana, translated as reason. Same idea. Num: > > The rest of the process (6th -17th) is the same. The visible object has arisen > and > has not yet fallen away during the whole process: rupayatana. The eye-base > (pasadarupa) is there at the same time and also has not fallen away through > out > the process. So the eyebase is still a paccaya for the process. Although the > eye- > base is a dvara for only seeing consciousness, but without the eye-base, the > adverting cannot arise to perform its functions and the rest of the cittas in > the > process cannot arise. Nina: Very good, eyebase still paccaya for the whole process. But, it is dvara not only for seeing, it is dvara for all the cittas of the eye-door process. That is what I understood. What do you think about this? With appreciation, Nina. 16395 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 21, 2002 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] PTSM #5 and a Question. Dear Num, thank you for your answers, I will look at Vibhanga. nippadesa, can be translated as all-embracing. The Abh includes more realities in samudaya. Only the term: anuloma khanti. I also came across panna khanti , and I did not know how to translate this. Maybe A. Supee knows? Nina. op 19-10-2002 02:06 schreef sinsk@m... op sinsk@m...: > Num: The word “ayuhana” will be mentioned more in detail in PTSM under the > nanakatha section. I remembered Robert asked A.Sujin about this term couple > months ago. A.Supee also gave us his input. As far as I can remember (read > remember, not understand :) ). “Ayuhana” refers to the cetana cetasika > accompanied by samutaya. From the saccavibanga, suttantabhajaniya section, > samutaya refers solely to lobha cetasika (tanha). In the abhidhammabhajaniya, > which was explained in a “nothing left out style” (nippadesa-desana), samutaya > refers to 1) tanha 2) the rest of the kilesas (the 9 kilesas) 3) the rest of > akusaladhammas (all akusala cittas and their accompanied cetasikas) 4) the 3- > kusulamulas (alobha/adosa/panna), which can be an object of asava, and 5) the > rest of kusuladhamma (kusalacittas and their accompanied cetasikas), which can > be an object of asava. So, my understanding, “ayuhana”, as you said, refers to > the > cetana cetasika as a nanakhanika kamma paccaya, which can be either kusala or > akusala. ... > > Nina: Question: Is there a connection with khanti, patience, or does it have > another > meaning here? > Num: A.Supee said that here it means panna. A.Supee gave some references from > the suttas, which I cannot recall at this moment. 16396 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 21, 2002 10:00am Subject: Perfections, Ch 6, Energy, no. 8 Perfections, Ch 6, Energy, no. 8 We should reflect on the different kinds of efforts. If endeavour is only of a very slight degree, the conditions for the arising of the controlling faculty of sati are not sufficient. We read in the above-quoted sutta about the controlling faculty of sati: And from what point of view , monks, should the controlling faculty of mindfulness be regarded? From that of the four applications of mindfulness. Kusala citta cannot arise without sati cetasika, be it at the moment one performs dåna, or abstains from akusala. However, the characteristic of the controlling faculty of sati, the characteristic of its leadership, can be seen in the four applications of mindfulness (6. We read further on about the faculties of concentration and of paññå: And from what point of view should the controlling faculty of concentration be regarded? From that of the four stages of jhåna. And from what point of view should the controlling faculty of insight be regarded? It should be regarded from the point of view of the four noble Truths. Paññå which is insight knowledge and which knows the true nature of realities as it is developed stage by stage, is the indriya, faculty, of pañña. However it has only reached completion when it has realized the four noble Truths. In the past countless people listened to the Dhamma, developed paññå with right effort and realized the four noble Truths. They were wise people who knew how to remind themselves of the truth. We should consider whether we at the present time are like those wise people in the past. The ³Anumånasutta², ³Discourse on Measuring in Accordance with², (M I, 15), deals with the admonishing of monks and with self-examination. We read at the end of the Commentary to this Sutta, the ³Papañcasúdaní² : The teachers of old said that the monk should scrutinize himself three times daily. Thus, in the morning he should consider to what extent he still has defilements. If he sees that he still has defilements he should strive to get rid of them. If he sees that he has no defilements he knows that he has been leading the monk¹s life in the right way. During the day time and also in the evening he should examine himself again. If he cannot do this three times a day, he should do it twice a day , and if he cannot do that, he should examine himself only once a day. But it is improper not to examine oneself at all. By this passage we can be reminded to examine ourselves so that we know whether our actions were proper or improper. We can understand that we need viriya, effort, so that we are able to investigate our akusala and kusala three times a day, or else twice a day, or if that is not possible, only once a day. Then we are reminded by the teachers of old to examine ourselves as to the defilements we still have and to reflect on these. Footnote: 6. Sati of satipatthåna is mindful of nåma and rúpa which appear. The four Applications of Mindfulness, which are mindfulness of the Body, of Feeling, of Citta and of Dhammas, are actually all conditioned realities. They have been explained under the different aspects of the four Applications of Mindfulness. Sati of satipatthåna is sati of a level which is higher than sati of dåna or sati of síla, because when it is developed it leads to the eradication of defilements. 16397 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Oct 21, 2002 1:48pm Subject: Practice on DSG Dear Group, I found the two posts about Roberts' meeting with Acharn Somporn very interesting, but I have a few questions about death and practice and hope someone may have the time and inclination to comment on them ... From the first post :Meeting with Acharn somporn" "He said that reading the texts is one aspect but only by understanding sabhava -realities - directly can there be proper understanding. Everything is dhamma , whether it be seeing or hearing, colour or sound, hardness, heat, even avijja (ignorance) is dhamma. There is no one,no being there at all but because of wrong view the characteristics (lakkhana ) which are simply conditioned dhamma are taken as self. This is very deep and subtle sakkya ditthi shows itself by clinging to wrong practice. He said if there is real understanding of sabhava dhamma then there is no fear of death because there is no self in sabhava." Question 1. (a) I wonder if anyone could clarify for me how 'right practice' would occur in the everyday life of a buddhist today? (b) or more exactly, how 'wrong practice' in everyday life of a buddhist today would be defined? Question 2. Many people do not fear death, I don't. I would fear intense unrelievable pain (at any time) but also in the dying process. I do fear violence, but not death itself. Why would 'no fear of death' mean there is 'real understanding of sabhava dhamma'?. Many people welcome death after an illness, and many others choose death over continuing on in an unendurable existence - whether there is belief in any continuance or not. ------------------------ And from the second post "Meeting with Acharn somporn2" :"Avijja and tanha cannot understand dhamma but they can fool one into thinking there is understanding. If panna arises then there is no self doing anything but there is understanding of the moment". Question 3. How, then, can one ever know when there is right understanding ... If avijja and tanha can fool one into thinking there is. Everyone acts out of what they think is right understanding. How can there ever be certainty that one is practicing correctly? By anyone? Everyone can quote a sutta or com. reference that seems to support completely different view points, a sort of "Duelling to the Death by Scripture Quotes". Question 4. The use of the word 'practice' or 'practise' is often confusing on this List. Different members seem to use the same word but not be referring to the same thing. Sometimes it is used as a noun as in 'the Practice'. This is never quite set out - one is pointed to the the Eight fold Path of practice, but the terms used here seem also to be invested with different meanings. Sometimes it is used as a verb 'when we practise' - though how can this be, when it is also said there is no-one who can 'choose' to do anything, no free-will, no-control, and when it is also said that sakkya-ditthi includes 'clinging to wrong practice.'? 5. Is formal sitting and walking meditation considered to include the idea 'a self' who because of 'lobha' for pleasant feeling is 'clinging to wrong practice'? i.e. sakkya-ditthi. Just thought it couldn't do any harm to ask ... :) Best wishes, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "rjkjp1" wrote: > I took the opportunity to practice my Thai and learn some Dhamma > when I had lunch with Acharn Somporn and T. A. Sujin today. I've > listened to Somporn in Thai but never spoken with him. He asked how > long I had been studying Abhidhamma and said that khanti (patience ) > is needed to really understand when I told him only 15years. He said > that reading the texts is one aspect but only by understanding > sabhava -realities - directly can there be proper understanding. > Everything is dhamma , whether it be seeing or hearing, colour or > sound, hardness, heat, even avijja (ignorance) is dhamma. There is no > one,no being there at all but because of wrong view the > characteristics (lakkhana ) which are simply conditioned dhamma are > taken as self. This is very deep and subtle sakkya ditthi shows > itself by clinging to wrong practice. > He said if there is real understanding of sabhava dhamma then there > is no fear of death because there is no self in sabhava. > I asked about his life: he was a novice monk at 16 with an interest > in pali and Abhidhamma and was soon giving sermons. At 22 he was > fully ordained and then spent another 10 years as a monk. He has been > a friend of Sujins for almost 50 years and is now a very relaxed > looking 82 years old. > Robert 16398 From: Date: Mon Oct 21, 2002 5:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "in Arahatship" Hi Jim, I agree, "crowned with arahantship in 21 places" must mean each of the subjects must lead to arahantship but I have heard many people say one must develop all 4 foundations. One can develop all 4 with anapanasati so the others must work the same way. I also agree this is a good bet on what "in Arahatship" means. Good work, thanks. Larry Way 10: "...having set up the subject of meditation, in Arahatship, in twenty-one places..." 16399 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Oct 21, 2002 8:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 13, Comm. --- Dear Nina, Just one question , I don't have access to any pali texts right now. What is the pali for 'proximate cause"? with respect Robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Larry, > > op 19-10-2002 22:01 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...:> > > Maybe I am getting stuck on the technical characteristics of panna. For > > example, its proximate cause is concentration. > N: a proximate cause arises together with the reality it is proximate cause > for. There must be concentration arising with panna. It depends on the > 16400 From: Sarah Date: Mon Oct 21, 2002 9:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 13, Comm. Hi Rob K, A quick little butting in: --- rjkjp1 wrote: > --- > Dear Nina, > Just one question , I don't have access to any pali texts right now. > What is the pali for 'proximate cause"? > with respect > Robert ... "Immediate occasion (pada.t.thaana.m) means proximate cause. Thus wherever we speak of characteristics, etc, their mutual difference should be understood in this wise." Atthasalini transl PTS p84 In an earlier post I questioned the use of 'proximate cause' for rupas, but I was mistaken and Rob M and Brian are discussing these and I just assume it is the same word used. Eg "Herein primary materiality is of four kinds as the earth element, water element, fire element and air element. Their characteristic, function, and manifestation have been given under the definition of the four elements; but as to the proximate cause, each has the other three as its proximate cause." Vism, XIV,35 ***** As I understand pada.t.thaana literally means 'footprint' from pada-foot. Now I understand better the use of 'footing' in the PTS Netti transl which you also have. 'footing' is translated from pada.t.thaana as in: " 'Investigate yourselves, launch out' are the footing for energy. (The words) 'Devote yourselves in the Enlightened One's Dispensation' are the footing for concentration. (The words) 'Scatter the armies of Mortality as does an elephant a hut of reeds' are the footing for understanding...."(Netti, 40 p65 in transl) ..... Also under the "Mode of conveying Footings"(Netti, 104 p140 in transl): " 'So let his cognizance be guarded': this is the footing for the three kinds of good conduct. 'Having for pasture right intention': this is the footing for quiet. 'Giving right view first place': this is the footing for insight. 'Through knowing rise and fall: this is the footing for the plane of seeing (as the path of Stream Entry). 'Transcending drowsing and lethargy a bhikkhu may': this is the footing for energy. 'Abandon all bad destinations': this is the footing for keeping in being (as the attainment of the three higher paths)." ***** Nina, Jim or others may add further details or corrections. Sarah ====== 16401 From: rikpa21 Date: Mon Oct 21, 2002 10:29pm Subject: On Wisdom Hello fellow DSG'ers, I found this note on wisdom (taken from the Tripitika) from Prof. Richard Hayes appropriate and worthy of wise consideration: "Now as long as we are on the topic of wisdom, let's make it clear that according to the Buddha (as reported in Nandamaanavapucchaa in the Sutta-nipaata) wisdom has nothing whatsoever to do with what one believes. It has nothing at all to do with what one has experienced or how one has experienced it, nothing to do with what one has learnt or how much one has learnt or from whom one has learnt it, and nothing to do with what one has thought about and figured out by oneself. Moreover, wisdom has nothing to do with which vows one has taken or what rituals one performs. "If wisdom is none of these, asks Nanda, then what is it? The Buddha replies that wisdom consists in letting go of worldviews, letting go of traditions and teachings, letting go of rituals and obsessions about which actions are pure and which impure, and letting go of all the internal poisons. Wisdom, he goes on to say, is living in seclusion, not depending in any way on the approval of the rest of society. In other places in the Sutta-nipaata, the Buddha says that wisdom consists in "disarming", that is, letting go of all cudgels, swords and sticks (and, I would guess, uzi machine guns, AK-47 assault rifles, handguns, armoured tank divisions, vials of weapon-grade infectious diseases and nuclear bombs) and beholding all living beings with the same love that a mother has for her only child." 16402 From: Sarah Date: Mon Oct 21, 2002 10:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Back from retreat, 1 & 2 Hi Brian, --- Brian Kelley wrote: Thank you for all your comments and apologies for snipping most. > Yes, exactly. Knowing realities as they occur. .... You’ll also like this quote from Nyanaponika in ‘Abhidhamma Studies’: > The study of the Abhidhamma should therefore not be allowed > to degenerate into a mere collecting, counting, and arranging of such > conceptual labels. This would make of Abhidhamma study - though, of > course, not of the Abhidhamma itself - just one more among the many > intellectual "playthings" that serve as an escape from facing > reality, or as a "respectable excuse" with which to evade the hard > inner work needed for liberation. A merely abstract and conceptual > approach to the Abhidhamma may also lead to that kind of intellectual > pride that often goes together with specialized knowledge. ***** Having quoted that, I personally find it very helpful as you’re doing, to consider the details and true nature of paramattha dhammas. For example, to understand a little more about all phenomena as elements (dhatu) helps to lessen the attachment to an idea of self: (Sammohavinodani transl 1760) "Likewise the eye is the eye element; the visible datum is the visible datum element; the seeing is the eye-consciousness element; the state associated therewith beginning with feeling are the mental-datum element. In this way "looking towards and looking away" is stated in terms of these four elements. Herein, what single person looks towards, what person looks away?" ***** Here’s another reference with ‘proximate cause’ from an earlier post of mine: ..... > The Atthasalini (II, Book II, Ch III, 318) and the Visuddhimagga > (XIV, 54) both give the following definition of visible object: > > Visible object has the characteristic of striking the eye, the > function of being the object of eye-sense consciousness, the > manifestation of being the field of visual cognition and the four > Great Elements as proximate cause. ..... All rupas depend on the 4 Great Elements. These 4 along with visible object, odour, flavour and nutritive essence cannot be separated and constitute the smallest unit (kalapa) of rupas. Without the 4 principle or primary rupas, the other 24 derived rupas could not therefore arise, so all other rupas are dependent on them. ***** > Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot to introduce myself. My name is Brian Kelley. > My wife, > Gini, and I live in a rural area of northeastern New York state, in the > foothills of > the Adirondack mountains. Before this introduction to the Abhidhamma, > my > primary area of study has been the Sutta Pitaka. For the past few > years, my > meditation practice has focused on anapanasati and cultivating metta. I > > frequently attend retreats at the Barre Center for Buddhist Studies in > Barre, > Massachusetts (about 3 and a half hours away from where we live). The > focus at BCBS is to integrate scholarly understanding and meditative > insight. ..... It sounds like a nice area and convenient for your retreats. I expect you’ll also have a chance to visit B.Bodhi in New Jersey soon if you wish. ..... > Thanks so much for letting this yogi eavesdrop on your discussions. > ..... A pleasure indeed < more smiles>. May I say that I particularly appreciate your positive and kind attitude with regard to sharing dhamma. Sarah ==== 16403 From: Sarah Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 0:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] One Sure Way Hi Mo, > From: "Michael Olds" .... I’m glad to read your well-considered points and to hear from you again on DSG (even if indirectly. I am quite sure I cannot emulate Ananda's role, but am happy to give a few wordling comments;-): ...... > A: "N: No, usually the fivefold, sometimes sixfold. The three > abstinences > arise together when the Path is lokuttara, then it is eightfold." > > How does this square with the fact that the fourth of the Satipatthanas, > regarding things from the viewpoint of the Dhamma, culminates in > regarding > things from the viewpoint of the Four Truths (and in the case of the > MahaSatipatthana, the Eightfold Path), and the Four Truths is identical > with Samma Ditthi which includes, as it's fourth element, the Eightfold > Path? ..... I would re-phrase this to suggest that the fourth of the satipatthanas (dhammanupassana) includes all realities such as the cetasikas (apart from vedana) not included in the other 3 satipatthanas as well as all realities under various classifications such as the khandhas. These dhammas are the objects of Samma Ditthi and other kusala mental factors - not viewpoints. When these wholesome qualities, led indeed by samma ditthi, have been fully developed, the Four Truths are realized. As you suggest, this is the ‘culmination’ of satipatthana. As you say, the fourth Truth is the Eightfold Path, but we cannot say the Truths are identical with samma ditthi. ..... > Or, alternatively, if, as it is said here, only the five-fold or sixfold > path is intended, how does this statement square with the fact that this > too > includes Samma Ditthi which includes the Four Truths which includes as > it's > fourth, the Eightfold path. ..... While satipatthana is being developed, the 5 (or 6 at moments of one of the 3 abstinences)fold path is intended, including samma ditthi, but not lokuttara samma ditthi which realizes nibbana and is accompanied by the 7 other Path factors at that moment. ..... > Seeing this, one can see that even if one limits one's "Path" to the one > step, Samma Ditthi, there is sufficient scope to that to take one to the > goal. ..... Samma ditthi has to be assisted by the other path factors; at each moment of samma ditthi, there is also s.sankappa, s.vayama, s.sati and s.samadhi accompanying it. Agreed about the leadership role of s.ditthi. ..... > Again, from another angle, the Satipatthanas are not practiced in > sequence, > but describe a sequence of experiences that evolve into each other so > that, > for example, seeing that one's own body is of precisely the same nature > as > a > decaying corpse, if it is, in fact seen that way, implies seeing sense > experience (vedana), emotions (cita), and the Dhamma, and is at lease a > small taste of Nibbana here and now. ..... Agreed that the Satipatthanas are not a ‘sequence’. Different namas and rupas have to be known over and over again as elements, as phenomena, not self. I agree that as understanding develops of various paramattha dhammas, it becomes apparent that others (not yet experienced) are of the same nature: i.e elements, not-self, impermanent etc. Seeing one’s body ‘as a decaying corpse’ may be just thinking, not understanding of rupas directly. It depends. It may be a moment of samatha which is kusala but not the same as satipatthana. I don’t think we can say that moments of understanding or satipatthana are a ‘small taste o Nibbana here and now’, however. ..... > The way this business of a worldly path and a super-worldly path is > being > understood is off track. Taking just the Satipatthana, which is only one > example, and granting that one who is just beginning, begins from the > worldly path, following the Satipatthana to it's conclusion one arrives > at > The Four Truths which ends in the Magga, which ends with Samma Samadhi, > which ends with Upekkha which, when seen as freedom and when freedom is > seen > as freedom (that is, when the situation has been made conscious), is a > synonym for Nibbana. ..... I don’t think I follow. If there is a moment of satipatthana now, there must be samma ditthi accompanied by samma samadhi at a beginning level. This mundane or worldly path must be accompanied by detachment from the start. ..... > If a path leads to the goal, how can it be regarded as worldly? > It cannot. It is only the attitude of individuals towards that path that > can > be distinguished as worldly or not. (Sariputta does not say: "There is a > worldly path and an Unworldly Path"; he says "there is a taking on of > the > Path which is Worldly and there is a taking on of the Path which is > unworldly," and he goes on to describe it as a matter of attitude.) ..... I agree it depends on the attitude or rather the understanding at any given time. Still, I think the wordly path refers to the path of developing understanding of the truths as opposed to the supramundane path moments which realize nibbana. Even those who have attained levels of enlightenment, the sekkha, are still ‘in training’. Understanding and the other noble qualities continue to develop. ..... >If one > approaches the dhamma, attaining step-by-step each of it's > accomplishments, > with the idea of gain (fame, power, status, etc.) then one has walked > the > worldly path; if at each level of progress one does not exalt the self > or > disparage others but simply evaluates the situation for what it is, > seeing > that there is more to be done and setting out for it's accomplishment, > then > one is walking the path of the Higher Dhamma. ..... At moments of concern with worldly conditions or any other akusala, I don’t understand that any path (mundane or supramundane) is being followed . This can be referred to as wordly understanding, i.e wrong view, but this shouldn’t be confused with mundane or worldly path in the discussion referred to. Only moments of direct understanding of realities can be considered as moments of satipatthana or path (mundane); not moments of wise reflection or consideration. Mo, you’ve studied parts of the Tipitaka extensively and also Pali, I know. I apologise if I appear to be missing your points at all and would be glad for any further clarification. Let me finish with a quote from the Mulapariyaya Sutta commentary below with reference to the aggamagga or ‘Supreme Path’ . Sarah ===== From the commentary to the Mulapariya Sutta: “...He who fully understands the earth understands it by the three types of full understanding: the full understanding of the known (~naata.pari~n~naa), the full understanding of scrutinization (tiira.napari~n~naa), and the full understanding of abandoning (pahaanapari~n~naa).” “Therein, what is the full understanding of the known? He fully understands the earth element thus: “This is the internal earth element, this the external. This is its characteristic, this its function, manifestation, and proximate cause.” this is full understanding of the known. What is the full understanding by scrutinization? Having known it in this way, he scrutinizes the earth element in forty-two modes as impermanent, suffering, a sickness, etc. this is full undestanding by scrutinization. What is the full understanding by abandoning/ Having scrutinized it in this way, he abandons desire and lust for the earth element through the supreme path (aggamagga). This is full understanding by abandoning. Or , alternatively, the defining of mentality-materiality (naamaruupavavatthaana) is the full understanding of the known; from insight-comprehension of the groups (kalaapasammasana) as far as conformity knowledge (anuloma) is the full understanding by scrutinization; and the knowledge of the ariyan path is the full understanding by abandoning.” =========================================== 16404 From: Brian Kelley Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 5:46am Subject: Re: A Question about proximate cause Hi Rob, You wrote: > If you are interested in rupas, Nina's book, "Rupas" is excellent: > > http://www.zolag.co.uk/ebook.html > I have downloaded it and look forward to reading it with great anticipation. (Unfortunately it has joined a long queue of materials I want to read in the near future -- a line that, the more I read, just seems to keep getting longer, not shorter!) > If you are interested in a concise summary, I have compressed Nina's > book into 12 pages. It will be part of the next update of class > notes in ten days time or if you want it sooner, please send me a > note off-line at rob.moult@j... and I will reply with the > attachment. When I downloaded the .pdf files of your class notes, I had difficulty reading them, because the paali words with diacriticals didn't display correctly. I suspect this is a font issue, or more specifically a cross-platform issue -- I use a Macintosh computer (running Mac OS X, 10.2). I realize that I didn't answer your earlier question, to say more about the project I'm working on. As I mentioned, this is my strategy for beginning to learn and memorize the lists in the CMA, by working with them and constructing a hypertext model based on certain of the charts. The way this works: I've made an html page of the chart of the 28 material phenomena, then for each item, link it to an html page with Bhikkhu Bodhi's explanation, and the characteristic, function, manifestation, and proximate cause of each item. I'll do other charts for cetasikas and cittas. The hope is to have them all cross-referenced, so that one can click on any term and be able to get information about related terms. Once all this reference material is ready, my teacher was encouraging me to make an interactive module, in which one could map out a "snapshot" of a mind-moment, taking a real life situation and having the user go through and select which cetasikas, for example, would be present. That's the idea, anyway. With metta, Brian 16405 From: Brian Kelley Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 5:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Back from retreat, 1 & 2 Hi Sarah, Thank you for the quotes from Ven. Nyanaponika and from the Visudhimagga. Very helpful indeed. And may I say how refreshing it is to join a list where the discussions are not only ennobling, but also conducted with gentleness and mutual respect. I apologize for the following lengthy snip: > It sounds like a nice area and convenient for your retreats. I expect > you'll also have a chance to visit B.Bodhi in New Jersey soon if you wish. On the last day of the Abhidhamma retreat, Andy mentioned that Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi has agreed to come up to BCBS to teach a course -- it was speculated that it might even be a longer version of this very Abhidhamma course. I'm very hopeful that, if this does happen, I'll be able to attend. What a marvelous opportunity that would be! With metta, Brian 16406 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 10:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] One Sure Way Dear Mike O, Your point of the four noble Truths is certainly not easy to answer, especially the Truth of cessation. We are studying slowly all the Applications. Jim has given me the Pali text and he will give me also the subco. which is very necessary to understand the Co. When we at last come to that point we shall see how to solve this dilemma. When I look in Ven. Soma's Co, just after Way 14 quoted by Larry: <~Nayassa adhigamaaya: For reaching the right Path. The real Eightfold Path is called the right path. `Verily, this preliminary, mundane Way of the Arousing of Mindfulness made to become (grown or cultivated) is conducive to the realisation of the Supramundane Way.> I hope this clarifies somewhat. I think it is panna from beginning to end, first, on the level of thinking, then, it grows through direct awareness and understanding of whatever appears through the six doors, one at a time. Sammaditthi is, I believe, not the end, but I think you do not take it as the end. It develops together with the other factors. I am first of all concerned with understanding of what appears now. We can think of lokuttara panna and nibbana, but that is only thinking. It is far off, is it not? I really appreciate your keenness to study. I like your text references, and I shall look at them. I am just now rather busy, so that I cannot go into all your points. They are certainly worth discussuing, and I hope others will join in. If you are not a member of dsg, please join, we need people like you :-) with appreciation, Nina. op 21-10-2002 06:16 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: Questions from Mo: > > Q: "When arousing of mindfulness is mentioned the 8-fold path is implied. > QUESTION: Does this mean that when satipatthana is practiced the entire > 8-fold path is practiced?" > A: "N: No, usually the fivefold, sometimes sixfold. The three abstinences > arise together when the Path is lokuttara, then it is eightfold." > > How does this square with the fact that the fourth of the Satipatthanas, > regarding things from the viewpoint of the Dhamma, culminates in regarding > things from the viewpoint of the Four Truths (and in the case of the > MahaSatipatthana, the Eightfold Path), and the Four Truths is identical > with Samma Ditthi which includes, as it's fourth element, the Eightfold > Path? > Or, alternatively, if, as it is said here, only the five-fold or sixfold > path is intended, how does this statement square with the fact that this > too > includes Samma Ditthi which includes the Four Truths which includes as > it's > fourth, the Eightfold path. > > Seeing this, one can see that even if one limits one's "Path" to the one > step, Samma Ditthi, there is sufficient scope to that to take one to the > goal. > > Again, from another angle, the Satipatthanas are not practiced in > sequence, > but describe a sequence of experiences that evolve into each other so > that, > for example, seeing that one's own body is of precisely the same nature as > a > decaying corpse, if it is, in fact seen that way, implies seeing sense > experience (vedana), emotions (cita), and the Dhamma, and is at lease a > small taste of Nibbana here and now. > > The way this business of a worldly path and a super-worldly path is being > understood is off track. Taking just the Satipatthana, which is only one > example, and granting that one who is just beginning, begins from the > worldly path, following the Satipatthana to it's conclusion one arrives at > The Four Truths which ends in the Magga, which ends with Samma Samadhi, > which ends with Upekkha which, when seen as freedom and when freedom is > seen > as freedom (that is, when the situation has been made conscious), is a > synonym for Nibbana. > > If a path leads to the goal, how can it be regarded as worldly? > It cannot. It is only the attitude of individuals towards that path that > can > be distinguished as worldly or not. (Sariputta does not say: "There is a > worldly path and an Unworldly Path"; he says "there is a taking on of the > Path which is Worldly and there is a taking on of the Path which is > unworldly," and he goes on to describe it as a matter of attitude.) If one > approaches the dhamma, attaining step-by-step each of it's > accomplishments, > with the idea of gain (fame, power, status, etc.) then one has walked the > worldly path; if at each level of progress one does not exalt the self or > disparage others but simply evaluates the situation for what it is, seeing > that there is more to be done and setting out for it's accomplishment, > then > one is walking the path of the Higher Dhamma. > > Some references: > > See: PTS: Middle Length Sayings, I: #19: Discourse on the Twofold Thought, > pp.148 > PTS: Greater Discourse on the (Ways of) undertaking Dhamma, I.372 > and: Majjhima:114. Sevitabbasevitabba Sutta (Sevitabbaasevitabba), III.45 > Middle Length Sayings: > WP: To Be Cultivated and Not To Be Cultivated, 913 > PTS: Discourse on what is to be Followed and what is not to be Followed, > III.94 16407 From: proctermail Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 11:46am Subject: Should the Garden be left to Grow? Hi, Firstly a little introduction - i am Sarah's nephew tom. this is my first real excursion into this site and my buddhist knowledge thin so please forgive any ignorance. My first question is essentially one of practicality : I have found that on occasion, and infact the more it is thought about the more occasions in which instances of it can be found, that the action that is taken is often in conflict with mindfulness - for example, when you clean you often find spiders and spiders webs in your house - to remove these hence possibly killing the spiders and destroying their homes in the process is asserting a selfish notion ie clean over a non selfish one of preserve life and allow things to be. It could I guess be argued that if they died in right mindfulness (a prayer for example) then nothing would be disrupted but... I origianally thought of this ages ago and emailed Sarah about it, but it has developed - hence the time taken to post. The same would apply to gardening - should i let it grow? 16408 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 2:08pm Subject: Re: Should the Garden be left to Grow? Dear group, Tom's comments raised the old issues of 'sentient' beings, 'kamma' and 'rebirth' for me once again. It is good to 'hear' from you, Tom. Welcome to dsg. I ask similar questions occasionally. [Do you hear snakes making gulping sounds like your Aunt Sarah? - I was just wondering if it is a genetically inherited talent to attract those rare reptiles? ;-) ] Excerpt from post 12552 "Chris: - Keeping on your good side after the mention of B.Bodhi, I won't mention any scepticism about snakes making a 'gulping' sound. If you say it did Sarah, then it did! This brings up a Dhamma focus question (seriously) - Is there a Buddhist scripture relating to "not saving" - this is pertinent for me, having rescued a small lizard caught up in a spider web. I'm not sure if the lizard was grateful, But the spider was furious...no dinner, and having to repair his home... So - was it a good thing...saving another being? or was it a bad thing....depriving a being of sustenance, and damaging his living area? Should we let whatever is happening to another being (human or otherwise) happen? If we intervene, are we just delaying the fruits of their kamma?....Or were we meant to save them?" I, too, ask about the dilemma of 'other beings' from time to time. What to do about spiders, cane toads, frogs, cockroaches, ants, wasps, snakes, lizards, mice, rats and possums that seek to share my outside and inside living space. It is often difficult to discuss - most buddhists don't really take it seriously. Rebirth (if even accepted as a possibility) is not thought of as anything other than another human birth by many buddhists. So the value of the lives of insects, reptiles and other creatures seems to be given lip service only. Only one choice is usually considered when human comfort is involved (and it is mostly comfort, not health) - extermination. Currently, Queensland is undergoing the worst drought in over a hundred years. (There is to be a huge ecumenical Service led by the Archbishop and the State's Premier today in the Cathedral to pray for rain. Inevitably the prayers will be answered - I hope they put in a clause about 'timeliness of response'.) But, on a micro level, the ant population (always the ones with the most initiative, next to humans and rats) are invading my kitchen sink - they can't walk 200 metres to the rapidly drying dam for a drink, I expect. And, besides which, it is shoulder to shoulder with insect eating cattle egrets and ibis out there. The ants are also sending scouts out to locate the sugar bowl, crumbs and any other food sources. Nothing much outside - the grass is brown and crunchy underfoot. The local cattle are being grazed on the roadsides, 'the long paddock'. For anyone who remembers, Rachel the rat has disappeared. I believe prevention is the best choice and if I was starting off in a brand new house it would be easier. This week, because of the dire weather conditions (37 C and not half way through Spring yet) and raging bush fires (one human death so far, 'Others' not collected statistically), I have a tree lopping service coming to cut back many of the trees the 'Others' use as ladders onto/into the roof space. The mother possum is welcome to the sheds - but I would really prefer the rats' relatives to relocate entirely. I understand that scrupulous cleanliness is a given, but when conditions for survival are harsh to extreme outside, this doesn't prevent a clash of species' 'needs and wants' occurring. Should we just put out the 'rat bait' and 'surface spray' and call it 'their results of previous kamma' and 'commonsense' - maybe take up a mantra like 'there is no self - no-one who kills, no-one who dies' ... but if rebirth is truth, and I wipe out a nest of 30,000 ant beings deliberately, would saying 'I tried everything, but they just kept coming to the sink, so I had no choice ...' really wipe out the affects of my kamma? And will we ever get out of samsara if the deliberate killing of an insect is equivalent to killing beings more like 'us'? - an imponderable, I know. Tom, with regards to the garden, I think cutting back shrubs and trees from a Buddhist perspective is O.K. - isn't the precept about not killing applicable only to sentient beings (those who are beathing, and can feel fear)? Though knowingly entirely removing the things which a sentient being needs to sustain life would be another issue, as would garden insecticides and herbicides, so I believe. For more, look under "Animals" in Useful Posts and then follow the links and replies - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Welcome again, and hope to 'hear' you regularly, metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "proctermail" wrote: > Hi, > > Firstly a little introduction - i am Sarah's nephew tom. this is my > first real excursion into this site and my buddhist knowledge thin so > please forgive any ignorance. > > My first question is essentially one of practicality : > > I have found that on occasion, and infact the more it is thought > about the more occasions in which instances of it can be found, that > the action that is taken is often in conflict with mindfulness - for > example, when you clean you often find spiders and spiders webs in > your house - to remove these hence possibly killing the spiders and > destroying their homes in the process is asserting a selfish notion > ie clean over a non selfish one of preserve life and allow things to > be. It could I guess be argued that if they died in right mindfulness > (a prayer for example) then nothing would be disrupted but... > > I origianally thought of this ages ago and emailed Sarah about it, > but it has developed - hence the time taken to post. The same would > apply to gardening - should i let it grow? 16409 From: robmoult Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 2:41pm Subject: Re: A Question about proximate cause Hi Brian, --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Brian Kelley" wrote: > When I downloaded the .pdf files of your class notes, I had difficulty reading > them, because the paali words with diacriticals didn't display correctly. I > suspect this is a font issue, or more specifically a cross- platform issue -- I use > a Macintosh computer (running Mac OS X, 10.2). Somebody else had a similar problem but it worked okay after they downloaded the latest version of Acrobat Reader (5.05?). Failing that, I could email to you the font file (.ttf format), if you think that it might help. > > I realize that I didn't answer your earlier question, to say more about the > project I'm working on. As I mentioned, this is my strategy for beginning to > learn and memorize the lists in the CMA, by working with them and > constructing a hypertext model based on certain of the charts. The way this > works: I've made an html page of the chart of the 28 material phenomena, > then for each item, link it to an html page with Bhikkhu Bodhi's explanation, > and the characteristic, function, manifestation, and proximate cause of each > item. I'll do other charts for cetasikas and cittas. The hope is to have them all > cross-referenced, so that one can click on any term and be able to get > information about related terms. Once all this reference material is ready, my > teacher was encouraging me to make an interactive module, in which one > could map out a "snapshot" of a mind-moment, taking a real life situation and > having the user go through and select which cetasikas, for example, would be > present. That's the idea, anyway. Wow! What an ambitious project! What is the time frame? I hope that you will be posting your work on a web-page, because even partially completed, it will be an excellent resource. Nina's book "Cetasikas" (available at the Zolag site mentioned earlier) will be an invaluable resource for you. Had you considered adding charts for the 24 conditions (Again, Nina's book on the subject is excellent) and Paticcasamuppada as well? I believe that Bhikkhu Bodhi is planning to relocate from Sri Lanka to your neck of the woods (not sure of the details, Sarah will know) in the near future. I would say that you are lucky, but that would be mana :-) Thanks, Rob M :-) 16410 From: robmoult Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 4:57pm Subject: Re: Should the Garden be left to Grow? Hi Tom, An imaginary conversation: Friend: Rob! You have shaved your head! Have you decided to become a monk? Rob: No, I have taken up competitive swimming. I read in a magazine that shaving my head will reduce resistance cutting 0.04 sec from my lap time. Friend: Rob, you are 10kg overweight and spend less than one hour a week in the pool. Why don't you focus on the more important issues before thinking about cutting 0.04 sec from your lap time? Killing insects creates bad kamma. However, let us consider the weightiness of the kamma created. The most important consideration in kammic weightiness is the quality of the underlying volition (intention). Are you malciously, sadistically and cruelly, seeking out to kill these insects? If so, that is worse kamma than failing to stop the lawnmower in time before you run over a poor worm. The second consideration is the being that is killed. Killing a virtuous human is more serious than killing a non-virtuous human. Killing a human is more serious than killing an animal. Killing a large animal is more serious than killing a small animal. The bottom line is that if you are like me, before breakfast each day you end up doing ten bad things more weighty than killing an insect. By all means, avoid killing insects if you can. However, don't lose sight of the big picture; the mind is the forerunner of all things; work on your mental states to avoid greed/attachment (lobha), hatred/aversion (dosa) and delusion (moha). Another thing to think about is the incredible power of good kammic actions. Remember the ending of the movie, "Monsters, Inc.", when they discovered that laughter has ten times the energy of screams? A bit of dana (generosity), sila (discipline) or bhavana (meditation) creates lots and lots of good kamma. So rather than focusing on issues such as the killing of insects, perhaps you could focus on "helping an old lady to cross the street". With Metta, Rob M :-) 16411 From: Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 4:45pm Subject: Way 15, Comm. "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html Commentary continued ñayassa adhigamaya = "For reaching the right path." The Noble Eightfold Path is called the right path. This preliminary, mundane Way of the Arousing of Mindfulness maintained (grown or cultivated) is conducive to the realisation of the Supramundane Way. Nibbanassa sacchikiriyaya = "For the attainment of Nibbana." It is said as follows: For the attainment, the ocular experience by oneself, of the deathless which has got the name "Nibbana" by reason of the absence in it of the lust [vana, literally, sewing, weaving, from the root va, to weave] called craving [tanha]. [Tika] Craving [tanha] sews together [samsibbati] or weaves [vinati] aggregate with aggregate, effect with cause, and suffering with beings. In Nibbana there is no "vana". Or in the man who has attained to Nibbana there is no "vana". [T] Ocular experience by oneself: Sensing without aid from the outside. This way maintained, effects the attainment of Nibbana, gradually. Although by the phrase, "For the purification of beings," the things meant by the other phrases which follows it are attained, the significance of those other phrases that follow the first, is not obvious except to a person familiar with the usage of the Dispensation [sasana yutti kovido]. Since the Blessed one does not at first make people conversant with the usage of the Dispensation and after that teach the Doctrine to them, and as he by various discourses sets forth various meanings, he explained the things which "the only way" effects, with the words "For the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation," and so forth. Or it may be said that the Master explained the things accomplished by "the only way", in this manner, in order to show that every thing which leads to the purification of beings by the "only way" is dependent on the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation; that this overcoming is dependent on the destruction of suffering and grief; and that the destruction of suffering and grief is dependent on the reaching of the right path which is in turn dependent on the attainment of Nibbana. It is a declaration of the method of deliverance, by "the only way." 16412 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 6:45pm Subject: Re: Should the Garden be left to Grow? --- Dear Rob., Just one point about cleaning out spider webs. The monks are told that they should keep their surroundings clean and the texts point out spider webs as something that they should clear away when they are cleaning.This of course can be done without killing the spiders. Robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., "proctermail" wrote: > Hi, > > Firstly a little introduction - i am Sarah's nephew tom. this is my > first real excursion into this site and my buddhist knowledge thin so > please forgive any ignorance. > > My first question is essentially one of practicality : > > I have found that on occasion, and infact the more it is thought > about the more occasions in which instances of it can be found, that > the action that is taken is often in conflict with mindfulness - for > example, when you clean you often find spiders and spiders webs in > your house - to remove these hence possibly killing the spiders and > destroying their homes in the process is asserting a selfish notion > ie clean over a non selfish one of preserve life and allow things to > be. It could I guess be argued that if they died in right mindfulness > (a prayer for example) then nothing would be disrupted but... > > I origianally thought of this ages ago and emailed Sarah about it, > but it has developed - hence the time taken to post. The same would > apply to gardening - should i let it grow? 16413 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 7:05pm Subject: Re: Practice on DSG ---Dear Christine, Thanks for your interest. In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > From the first post :Meeting with Acharn somporn" > "He said > that reading the texts is one aspect but only by understanding > sabhava -realities - directly can there be proper understanding. > Everything is dhamma , whether it be seeing or hearing, colour or > sound, hardness, heat, even avijja (ignorance) is dhamma. There is no > one,no being there at all but because of wrong view the > characteristics (lakkhana ) which are simply conditioned dhamma are > taken as self. This is very deep and subtle sakkya ditthi shows > itself by clinging to wrong practice. > He said if there is real understanding of sabhava dhamma then there > is no fear of death because there is no self in sabhava." > > Question 1. (a) I wonder if anyone could clarify for me how 'right > practice' > would occur in the everyday life of a buddhist today? (b) or more exactly, how 'wrong practice' in everyday > life of a buddhist today would be defined? ________________ I think right practice is nothing other than the arising of panna which experiences whatever is present. Others might disagree and that is fine.When we read the satipatthana sutta we see that the Buddha classified objects into 4: body, feelings, citta, mind objects. And then we might decide to try to concentrate on some of these : However, does trying to make sati go to certain objects lead to detachment from the idea of self? We might remember that sati is just a cetasika - so ephemeral- can it really be directed and maintained? And the sati that is associated with sammaditthi of the path is the most profound of all - because it penetrates the characteristics of dhammas. On the other hand we may have the accumulations to be more skilled in understanding one of these 4 foundations than the others and so feelings appear more clear in the beginning or citta with lobha (the first under the citta classification). Or the hindrances may be the object that appears most; or visible object. However understanding has to become aware of all dhammas that appear: In the Path of Discrimination Treatise I on Knowledge, Ch 1, Section 1, All), it says: Bhikkhus, all is to be directly known. And what is all that is to be directly known? Eye is to be directly known, visible object is to be directly known, eye-consciousness... eye-contact... any feeling that arises with eye-contact as its condition whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant is also to be directly known...Ó """end translation. Acharn Sujin spoke with me on Sunday about choosing objects of satipatthana. She explained that nama and rupa are arising now. When there is choosing there are namas -sankhara khanda - that arise to choose and if there is no awareness of those moments as sankhara then there will continue to be the subtle, perhaps hidden, idea of a self who can choose. But no one can stop this aspect of self view arising - it is only be hearing the profound Dhamma that wise attention will be bought to subtle sakkya ditthi (as it arises) and by that it will slowly be attentuated. I think it is natural that we make wrong efforts -it must be that way because wrong effort is dictated by self view. However at those moments of wrong effort there are namas and rupas appearing and they can be seen - and must be seen if the right way is to be discerned. > Question 2. Many people do not fear death, I don't. I would fear > intense > unrelievable pain (at any time) but also in the dying process. I do > fear violence, but not death itself. Many people > welcome death after an illness, and many others choose death over > continuing on in an unendurable existence - whether there is belief > in any continuance or not. > ------------------------ You ask "Why would 'no fear of death' mean there is 'real understanding of sabhava dhamma'?." referring to what I wrote: "He said if there is real understanding of sabhava dhamma then there is no fear of death because there is no self in sabhava." You are right of course: I saw an interview with Osama Bin Laden when he was said he loved death and hoped for it . No fear of death can arise from many reasons but my statement was meant to indicate that knowing sabhava led to this fearless state; not vice versa.(I wasn't at all clear ). My talk with Acharn Somporn was not easy - he had to keep stopping and simplifying as it was in a mixture of thai and Pali and I have very limited knowledge of both. I am sure he wasn't as clumsy as my report makes him out to be. ---------- > And from the second post "Meeting with Acharn somporn2" :"Avijja and > tanha cannot understand dhamma but they can fool one into thinking > there is understanding. If panna arises then there is no self doing > anything but there is understanding of the moment". > > Question 3. How, then, can one ever know when there is right > understanding ... If avijja and tanha can fool one into thinking > there is. > Everyone acts out of what they think is right understanding. How can > there ever be certainty that one is practicing correctly? By anyone? > Everyone can quote a sutta or com. reference that seems to support > completely different view points, a sort of "Duelling to the Death by > Scripture Quotes". ____________ I think without a firm theoretical understanding vipassana cannot arise, and yet without some direct insight it is difficult to gain firm theoretical understanding: as you pointed out we will be swyaed by whatever sutta or teacher sounds right at the time. It seems a catch 22 bind but we should expect it to be this way. The path is different from anything we have ever done . In many lives lobha has been our friend. In this life it benefited us in manifold ways. Like a good parent it forced us to study hard . . It helped us to find good jobs, learn new languages and make money. It found our girlfriends and wives . It was even a supporting condition for kusala kamma. (we were good because we wanted the results of goodness) But it cannot understand dhammas correctly as they really are. Acharn Sujin said it is so natural that aviija and wrong view arises - they have been accumulated (ayuhana) but at those moments there are namas and rupas appearing and if panna has developed(also ayuhana) the difference between panna and avijja will come to be gradually known. Only by this way can the distinction between satipatthana and imitation awareness be known. If panna doesn't accumulate then avijja and lobha will always grasp whatever practice 'we' are doing at the moment as being right. I think again and again we have to examine whether we are firm to what the Buddha taught. He said that all dhammas are conditioned and not self and so evanescent. I know this is clear to me but I still sometimes wish that sati and panna can be made to appear by 'my' will. I try to hurry it all along. At those times it is easy to have subtle wrong practice but so often there is no awareness of it. So very natural that self view and wrong practice should arise. But if we insist to ourselves that we have right view and practice correctly now then there will be never be investigation that can gradually discern the right path. Robert In the 'Majjhima nikaya' I (no. 43, Mahavedallasutta) Kotthita asked Sariputta: "'But what is intuitive wisdom for, your reverence?' 'Your reverence, intuitive wisdom is for super-knowledge, for apprehending, for getting rid of.' 'But how many conditions are there, your reverence, for bringing right understanding into existence?' 'There are two conditions, your reverence, for bringing right understanding into existence: the utterance of another (person) and wise attention. Your reverence, there are the two conditions for bringing wise attention into existence.'" The other person is the Buddha or his disciples, by listening carefully to the right person, by considering and applying what we have heard are the conditions for right understanding built up. Kotthita then asked sariputta "If right understanding is forwarded, by how many factors, your reverence, does there come to be the fruit of freedom..." Sariputta listed 5 factors: moral habit, hearing true dhama, discussion , calm, and vision. The commentary notes that discussion [with the wise] helps to give up wrong practice. 16414 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 11:46pm Subject: Re: Practice on DSG Hi Christine, Thanks for this list of questions; pondering over them has impressed upon me that I am barely beginning to find the answers. I think I have missed your meaning in a couple of places but here are a few comments: -------------------- Question 1. (a) I wonder if anyone could clarify for me how 'right practice' would occur in the everyday life of a buddhist today? (b) or more exactly, how 'wrong practice' in everyday life of a buddhist today would be defined? ------------------- Right practice would be mindfulness of presently arising paramattha dhammas. Of course, understanding what this means is a lifetime's work. If we have a practice that is easy to follow, then we can be pretty sure we have a wrong practice. ---------------------- > Question 2. Many people do not fear death, I don't. I would fear intense unrelievable pain (at any time) but also in the dying process. I do fear violence, but not death itself. Why would 'no fear of death' mean there is 'real understanding of sabhava dhamma'?. Many people welcome death after an illness, and many others choose death over continuing on in an unendurable existence - whether there is belief in any continuance or not.> ------------------------ The fear and fearlessness that we many-folk know, are mixtures of thoughts and emotions. We don't know precisely when there is dosa or adosa and we don't know precisely what those cetasikas have as object. I think it is nonetheless relevant for us worldlings to note when we are fearful and when we are not because we then can be reminded of the cetasikas, dosa and adosa and we can reflect on what we understand by those terms. It is also relevant to know whether we have latent tendencies towards fear or fearlessness because that too reminds us of what is accumulated in absolute reality. -------------------------- > Question 3. How, then, can one ever know when there is right understanding ... If avijja and tanha can fool one into thinking there is.> ------------------------ Panna can have panna (or ditthi), as object. I assume this from the Mahacattarika Sutta which says that when a monk knows that right understanding is right understanding and that wrong understanding is wrong understanding then that is his right understanding. Apart from fearlessness of death, how would right understanding of understanding show in daily life? Confidence in the Dhamma? ------------------ > Everyone acts out of what they think is right understanding. How can there ever be certainty that one is practicing correctly? By anyone? Everyone can quote a sutta or com. reference that seems to support completely different view points, a sort of "Duelling to the Death by Scripture Quotes".> ------------------------- Mostly, everyone acts out of what they think is pleasurable but you are making the point that we all come to our own conclusions as to what Dhamma related practices are beneficial. It's all a matter of conditionality, we shouldn't feel pride or shame, we conceptual beings only think we have a say in the matter. One day, instead of just thinking we don't fear death, we will directly know that there is only nama and rupa -- no self that dies. Even then, we are told, a measure of doubt will continue until Stream Entry when the final goal --the true deathlessness -- is seen. ---------------------------- > Question 4. The use of the word 'practice' or 'practise' is often confusing on this List. Different members seem to use the same word but not be referring to the same thing. Sometimes it is used as a noun as in 'the Practice'. This is never quite set out - one is pointed to the the Eight fold Path of practice, but the terms used here seem also to be invested with different meanings. Sometimes it is used as a verb 'when we practise' - though how can this be, when it is also said there is no-one who can 'choose' to do anything, no free-will, no-control, and when it is also said that sakkya-ditthi includes 'clinging to wrong practice.'? 5. Is formal sitting and walking meditation considered to include the idea 'a self' who because of 'lobha' for pleasant feeling is 'clinging to wrong practice'? i.e. sakkya-ditthi. > ----------------------- There is no denying our personality-belief. Where A. Somporn has said, `it shows itself as clinging to wrong practice,' I take that to mean, it shows itself in our preference for conventional reality over absolute reality. We are told that panna, like all conditioned realities, is conditioned by dhammas that are not self. However, we feel threatened by that; we want to attain enlightenment by means of self and so to some extent, we all choose conventional practices. I think the proponents of formal practice agree that it contains the [involuntary] belief in a self who can practise. They say that, in this way, sakkya-ditthi is a means to an end. Others maintain that this is wrong view. (I think there is a sutta (quoted on dsg by Robert K, if I remember correctly), that specifically describes as wrong view, "By self, I shall see not-self.") Like it or not, we have to accept that the true practice is right understanding all the way. Kind regards Ken H 16415 From: rahula_80 Date: Wed Oct 23, 2002 1:00am Subject: Hi, My understanding of Buddhism is that it did NOT teach that the five aggregates (Pali. khandha, Sanskrit. skandha) are mara but clinging to the aggregates. Is my understanding correct? If it is not, please correct me. If it is, please read on. I found these two suttas problematic to my understanding and at least one person, Shakya Aryanatta have accuse Bhikkhu Bodhi of mistranslating the suttas. They are maara sutta.m and maaradhammasutta.m. They are located in Sa.myuttanikaayo, Khandhavaggapali, Raadhasa.myutta.m, Dutiyavaggo. These suttas says that the aggregates are mara. Here are the suttas in Pali. 1. Maarasuttam Saavatthinidaana.m Ekamanta.m nisinno kho aayasmaa raadho bhagavanta.m etadavoca– "`maaro, maaro'ti, bhante, vuccati. Katamo nu kho, bhante, maaro"ti? "Ruupa.m kho, raadha, maaro, vedanaa maaro, saññaa maaro, sa"nkhaaraa maaro, viññaa.na.m maaro. Eva.m passa.m, raadha, sutavaa ariyasaavako ruupasmimpi nibbindati, vedanaayapi nibbindati, saññaayapi nibbindati, sa"nkhaaresupi nibbindati, viñña.nasmimpi nibbindati. Nibbinda.m virajjati; viraagaa vimuccati. Vimuttasmi.m vimuttamiti ñaa.na.m hoti. `Khii.naa jaati, vusita.m brahmacariya.m, kata.m kara.niiya.m, naapara.m itthattaayaa'ti pajaanaatii"ti. Pathama.m. 2. Maaradhammasutta.m Saavatthinidaana.m Ekamanta.m nisinno kho aayasmaa raadho bhagavanta.m etadavoca– "`maaradhammo, maaradhammo'ti, bhante, vuccati. Katamo nu kho, bhante, maaradhammo"ti? "Ruupa.m kho, raadha, maaradhammo, vedanaa maaradhammo, saññaa maaradhammo, sa"nkhaaraa maaradhammo, viññaa.nam maaradhammo. Eva.m passa.m…pe… naapara.m itthattaayaati pajaanaatii"ti. Dutiya.m. Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of Maraadhammasutta.m At Savatthi, the venerable Radha sitting to oneside said to Blessed One: "Venerable Sir, it is said subject to Mara, subject to Mara. What now venerable Sir is subject to Mara?" "Form, Radha is subject to Mara, Feeling is subject to Mara, Perceptions are subject to Mara, Volitional Formations are Subject to Mara, Consciousness is subject to Mara. He understands: '... there is no more for this state of being." In accusing Bhikkhu Bodhi of mistranslating these suttas, Shakya Aryantta have wrote: >> Herein Bhikkhu Bodhi glosses SN 3.195 and covers up Maradhamma with "subject to Mara", therein translating dhamma as "subject to" to gloss over the fact that the sutta states succinctly that the 5 aggregates are mara, are the dharma of mara (the evil one). Bhikkhu Bodhi glosses this word because of its implication and sutta and attempts pathetically to forgive himself in the footnote in the back without reason saying ::: Bhikkhu Bodhi's footnote to SN 3.195. #248 footnote "In the suttas that follow I translate the suffix -dhamma as "nature" rather than "subject to" Even FL Woodward translates this word (maradhamma) correctly and unglossed as "of the nature of Mara" However, the commentary to this sutta succintly states: maaradhammoti mara.nadhammo "mara's dhamma means shammas of death" Khandhavagga-atthakathaa 2.336 Dutiyavaggassa patthame maaro, maaroti mara.na.m pucchati. yasmaa pana ruupaadivinimutta.m mara.na.m naama natthi, tenassa bhagavaa ruupa.m kho, raadha, maaroti-aadimaaha. dutiye maaradhammoti mara.nadhammo. etenupaayena sabbattha attho veditabboti. << Below are Shakya Aryanatta's translation. Is it correct? If not, why? 1. Maarasutta.m At one time in Savatthi, the venerable Radha seated himself and asked of the Blessed Lord "Mara,Mara I hear said venerable. What pray tell does Mara mean?""Just this, form, Radha is Mara, sensations are Mara, perceptions are Mara, assemblages are Mara, sentience is Mara. Seeing thusly?this is the end of birth, the Brahma-life has been fullfiled, what must be done has been done, he discerns there is nothing further than this very Soul." 2. Maaradhammasutta.m At one time in Savatthi, the venerable Radha seated himself and asked of the Blessed Lord "Mara's dharma, Mara's dharma I hear said venerable. What pray tell does Mara's dharma mean?" "Just this, form, Radha is Mara's dharma, sensations are Mara's dharma, perceptions are Mara's dharma, assemblages are Mara's dharma, sentience is Mara's dharma. Seeing thusly, this is the end of birth, the Brahma-life has been fullfiled, what must be done has been done, he discerns there is nothing further than this very Soul." ----------- Thanks, Rahula 16416 From: rahula_80 Date: Wed Oct 23, 2002 1:01am Subject: Khandha = Mara? Hi, My understanding of Buddhism is that it did NOT teach that the five aggregates (Pali. khandha, Sanskrit. skandha) are mara but clinging to the aggregates. Is my understanding correct? If it is not, please correct me. If it is, please read on. I found these two suttas problematic to my understanding and at least one person, Shakya Aryanatta have accuse Bhikkhu Bodhi of mistranslating the suttas. They are maara sutta.m and maaradhammasutta.m. They are located in Sa.myuttanikaayo, Khandhavaggapali, Raadhasa.myutta.m, Dutiyavaggo. These suttas says that the aggregates are mara. Here are the suttas in Pali. 1. Maarasuttam Saavatthinidaana.m Ekamanta.m nisinno kho aayasmaa raadho bhagavanta.m etadavoca– "`maaro, maaro'ti, bhante, vuccati. Katamo nu kho, bhante, maaro"ti? "Ruupa.m kho, raadha, maaro, vedanaa maaro, saññaa maaro, sa"nkhaaraa maaro, viññaa.na.m maaro. Eva.m passa.m, raadha, sutavaa ariyasaavako ruupasmimpi nibbindati, vedanaayapi nibbindati, saññaayapi nibbindati, sa"nkhaaresupi nibbindati, viñña.nasmimpi nibbindati. Nibbinda.m virajjati; viraagaa vimuccati. Vimuttasmi.m vimuttamiti ñaa.na.m hoti. `Khii.naa jaati, vusita.m brahmacariya.m, kata.m kara.niiya.m, naapara.m itthattaayaa'ti pajaanaatii"ti. Pathama.m. 2. Maaradhammasutta.m Saavatthinidaana.m Ekamanta.m nisinno kho aayasmaa raadho bhagavanta.m etadavoca– "`maaradhammo, maaradhammo'ti, bhante, vuccati. Katamo nu kho, bhante, maaradhammo"ti? "Ruupa.m kho, raadha, maaradhammo, vedanaa maaradhammo, saññaa maaradhammo, sa"nkhaaraa maaradhammo, viññaa.nam maaradhammo. Eva.m passa.m…pe… naapara.m itthattaayaati pajaanaatii"ti. Dutiya.m. Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of Maraadhammasutta.m At Savatthi, the venerable Radha sitting to oneside said to Blessed One: "Venerable Sir, it is said subject to Mara, subject to Mara. What now venerable Sir is subject to Mara?" "Form, Radha is subject to Mara, Feeling is subject to Mara, Perceptions are subject to Mara, Volitional Formations are Subject to Mara, Consciousness is subject to Mara. He understands: '... there is no more for this state of being." In accusing Bhikkhu Bodhi of mistranslating these suttas, Shakya Aryantta have wrote: >> Herein Bhikkhu Bodhi glosses SN 3.195 and covers up Maradhamma with "subject to Mara", therein translating dhamma as "subject to" to gloss over the fact that the sutta states succinctly that the 5 aggregates are mara, are the dharma of mara (the evil one). Bhikkhu Bodhi glosses this word because of its implication and sutta and attempts pathetically to forgive himself in the footnote in the back without reason saying ::: Bhikkhu Bodhi's footnote to SN 3.195. #248 footnote "In the suttas that follow I translate the suffix -dhamma as "nature" rather than "subject to" Even FL Woodward translates this word (maradhamma) correctly and unglossed as "of the nature of Mara" However, the commentary to this sutta succintly states: maaradhammoti mara.nadhammo "mara's dhamma means shammas of death" Khandhavagga-atthakathaa 2.336 Dutiyavaggassa patthame maaro, maaroti mara.na.m pucchati. yasmaa pana ruupaadivinimutta.m mara.na.m naama natthi, tenassa bhagavaa ruupa.m kho, raadha, maaroti-aadimaaha. dutiye maaradhammoti mara.nadhammo. etenupaayena sabbattha attho veditabboti. << Below are Shakya Aryanatta's translation. Is it correct? If not, why? 1. Maarasutta.m At one time in Savatthi, the venerable Radha seated himself and asked of the Blessed Lord "Mara,Mara I hear said venerable. What pray tell does Mara mean?""Just this, form, Radha is Mara, sensations are Mara, perceptions are Mara, assemblages are Mara, sentience is Mara. Seeing thusly?this is the end of birth, the Brahma-life has been fullfiled, what must be done has been done, he discerns there is nothing further than this very Soul." 2. Maaradhammasutta.m At one time in Savatthi, the venerable Radha seated himself and asked of the Blessed Lord "Mara's dharma, Mara's dharma I hear said venerable. What pray tell does Mara's dharma mean?" "Just this, form, Radha is Mara's dharma, sensations are Mara's dharma, perceptions are Mara's dharma, assemblages are Mara's dharma, sentience is Mara's dharma. Seeing thusly, this is the end of birth, the Brahma-life has been fullfiled, what must be done has been done, he discerns there is nothing further than this very Soul." ----------- Thanks, Rahula 16417 From: Sarah Date: Wed Oct 23, 2002 3:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Wisdom Hi Erik, Hope you both and Eath’s nephew are doing well. I’ve just been having a look at Nanda’s Questions, Sutta-Nipata and would like to just add a couple of comments as I understand the sutta. (Someone else like Rob K may pull out the Pali or commentary, but I don’t have access to these.)Thank you for the reference and comments. ***** Ven Saddhatissa’s transl: 1. “To me, Nanda, a wise man is one who has disarmed: he lives in seclusion, without the tremble or the hunger of desire”. ..... S: seclusion, i.e secluded from desire, not from society disarmed, i.e disarmed of attachments and kilesa, not of conventional weapons ..... 2. “I would say this about religious leaders who teach that views and teachings, or deeds and rituals, or anything else will make you pure; I would say that these men, living in this world, have not gone beyond birth and ageing.’ ..... S: views and teachings,or deeds and rituals... i.e wrong views and practices as clung to by worldlings....(this was discussed earlier with regard to other suttas in Sutta Nipata). ..... 3. “There are some who have let go of world-views of teaching traditions of thoughts. They have let go of religious practices and rituals, they have left all the different forms behind and they have a total understanding of attachments. For them there are no inner poison-drives. These, truly, are the ocean-crossers.” ..... S: world-views, i.e conventional wrong views. religious practices and rituals, attachment to these as eradicated by sotapanna Understanding of attachments, i.e cause of suffering, fully developed right understanding as learnt, experienced and directly developed no poison-drives, i.e living alone, living in seclusion with sense-doors guarded, kilesa eradicated = arahants. ..... Sarah ===== --- rikpa21 wrote: > > Hello fellow DSG'ers, > > I found this note on wisdom (taken from the Tripitika) from Prof. > Richard Hayes appropriate and worthy of wise consideration: > > "Now as long as we are on the topic of wisdom, let's make it clear > that according to the Buddha (as reported in Nandamaanavapucchaa in > the Sutta-nipaata) wisdom has nothing whatsoever to do with what one > believes. It has nothing at all to do with what one has experienced > or how one has experienced it, nothing to do with what one has > learnt or how much one has learnt or from whom one has learnt it, > and nothing to do with what one has thought about and figured out by > oneself. Moreover, wisdom has nothing to do with which vows one > has taken or what rituals one performs. > > "If wisdom is none of these, asks Nanda, then what is it? The Buddha > replies that wisdom consists in letting go of worldviews, letting go > of traditions and teachings, letting go of rituals and obsessions > about which actions are pure and which impure, and letting go of all > the internal poisons. Wisdom, he goes on to say, is living in > seclusion, not depending in any way on the approval of the rest of > society. In other places in the Sutta-nipaata, the Buddha says that > wisdom consists in "disarming", that is, letting go of all cudgels, > swords and sticks (and, I would guess, uzi machine guns, AK-47 > assault rifles, handguns, armoured tank divisions, vials of > weapon-grade infectious diseases and nuclear bombs) and beholding > all living beings with the same love that a mother has for her only > child." ======================== 16418 From: rikpa21 Date: Wed Oct 23, 2002 6:40am Subject: On Wisdom, the Visuddhimagga, & Buddhadasa Bikkhu --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Hi Erik, > > Hope you both and Eath's nephew are doing well. Yes, we're all doing well, and Eath and our son are doing well, though if there has ever been a test of patience, dealing with a five-year-old monkey with boundless energy has left us both completely exhausted. Thanks for your kind consideration. May you and all beings be well and free from dukkha! :) > I've just been having a look at Nanda's Questions, Sutta-Nipata and would > like to just add a couple of comments as I understand the sutta. (Someone > else like Rob K may pull out the Pali or commentary, but I don't have > access to these.)Thank you for the reference and comments. > ***** > > Ven Saddhatissa's transl: > 1. "To me, Nanda, a wise man is one who has disarmed: he lives in > seclusion, without the tremble or the hunger of desire". > ..... > S: seclusion, i.e secluded from desire, not from society > disarmed, i.e disarmed of attachments and kilesa, not of conventional > weapons Perhaps you missed the Ajarn Hayes' dry wit, as many are prone to do, and taken literally (nitattha) what is meant tongue-in-cheek (neyattha). ;) > ..... > 2. "I would say this about religious leaders who teach that views and > teachings, or deeds and rituals, or anything else will make you pure; I > would say that these men, living in this world, have not gone beyond birth > and ageing.' This could easily imlpy that the entire Visuddhimagga runs counter to what the Buddha taught, which uses views, teachings, deeds, and rituals as a means of purification that leads to release. On that note, just to stir the pot a bit, I find Buddhadasa Bikkhu's sharp critiques of both the Visuddhimagga and the Abhidhamma worthy of careful consideration and dispassionate analysis: "Buddhadasa and Criticism of Theravada Buddhism in Thailand "It appears that in general, Buddhadasa is critical of anything standing in the way of the fulfillment of the primary soteriological purpose of religion. His work is not limited at abroadside attack on traditional interpretations of Buddhist teaching, but also includes thecriticism of various components of Thai Buddhist tradition. He opines that Buddhism has tobe dynamic since once it becomes a sterile system it will lose its vitality. Buddhadasa's criticism of Thai Buddhism is a part of his attempt to return to original Buddhism. Further, it can lead us to a better understanding of the religious situation in Thailand. Traditional Scriptures "From the doctrinal point of view the brunt of Buddhadasa's attack is directed toward Buddhaghosa, one of the greatest Buddhist commentators in the 5th century A.D., who is most acclaimed for providing a commentary and interpretative structure for the Theravada tradition, and the scholastism of the Abhidhamma. "Buddsadasa observes that in Thailand various scriptural commentaries which were later completed replaced the original Pali Text as a source of religious authority, especially Visuddhimagga (the Path of Purity), a classical scriptural commentary of Buddhaghosa which is one of the most important texts of Buddhist study in Thailand. He declares that Visudhimagga is one of the oldest historical evidence showing gradual use of Hindu concepts in interpreting Buddhist teachings. Buddhadasa illustrates this argument through historical evidence, such as Buddha's Own Word, the Suttas in the Tipitaka. "In his book he wrote the title "What is Paticcasam-uppada" (1971) showing the distinction between what he considers the interpretation of Buddhist teaching using Hindu concepts and in the Buddhist sense. He is convinced that uncritical adherence to the Buddhaghosa orthodoxy has obscured a real encounter with the Buddha's dhamma. The criticism of Visuddhimagga implies that Buddhadasa goes against the belief and understanding of not only most Thai Buddhists but also Buddhists in general. Consequently, he is condemned by some groups of monks and laymen as an ungrateful and heretical person who destroys Buddhism. "On the other hand, his book has became an important reference which most of Buddhist students have to take into consideration. Buddhadasa does not stop there, he does what nobody has dared to do, that is, he criticizes the Abhidhamma Pitaka, one of the cardinal tripartite scriptures in the Tipitaka: Abhidhamma, Sutta, and Vinaya Pitaka. It is a fact that most of Thai Buddhist students believe that Abhidhamma is the Buddha's Own Word. They prefer to study this more carefully than the other two scriptures (Sutta and Vinaya), especially since World War II, when the Burmese tradition of studying and practicing Buddhism was introduced into Thailand. "Buddhadasa insists that Abhidhamma was completed about 1300 years after the death of Buddha. He further criticizes that a large part of Abhidhamma is not only in line with Buddha's dhamma but it is also antithetical to the profound Buddhist teaching. "What is Abhidhamma" (1971), is one of Buddhadasa's important research works which refers to many sources of evidence taken from the Tipitaka, including the existing opinion of both eastern and western Buddhist scholars like Phra Nanatilaka (a German monk), Professor T.W Rhys Davids, who established the Pali-Text Society in London, andHary Singh Gour, a well-known Indian scholar. His book is regarded as the most importantoperation on the Thai Theravada Buddhism. As a result of this criticism, Buddhadasa is opposed by some conservative monks and laymen. He is accused of being a great sinner, as daring to criticize the Abhidhamma Pitaka as wrong. However, the Abhidhamma Pitaka has been discredited in the view of many monks and laymen. The prestige of the Abhidhamma has been affected immensely ever since. "Buddhadasa also criticizes the Buddhologists including most eastern and western scholars who write about Buddhism because he feels that their writings contain many non-Buddhist concepts. They generally use Hindu concepts to explain Buddhism, especially the concepts of kamma, birth and rebirth. He acknowledges that it is very difficult to clearly distinguish between Buddhist and Hindu concept through only literal study of doctrine or historical evidences. This is because one of the most difficult points centres on the application of the same word which carries completely different meanings and goals: one meaning (the meaning in Hindu sense) maintaining the "self" or attachment to "self"; whereas another meaning (the meaning in Buddhism) maintains "non-self" and demolishing the idea of "self". This point, for Buddhadasa, is a border line between Buddhist and Hindu conception." I really appreciate Buddhadasa Bikkhu's fearlessly taking on the Establishment in an attempt to help others divest themselves of the dogmatism, sectarianism, speculations, and rites and rituals--all bound up in miccha ditthi, and far removed from the Buddha's actual teachings in the Suttas. Iconoclastically yours, Erik 16419 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Oct 23, 2002 6:56am Subject: Re: On Wisdom, the Visuddhimagga, & Buddhadasa Bikkhu --- Dear erik, So glad to hear you are coping with your new new charge. I have been through it and ran away a couple of couple times but as Rob M. has mentioned rearing children can be a practice in itself. So many occasions for khanti (patience)to have the chance e to arise . (And sometimes it doesn't but my suggestion is to be patient with your own impatience - it is no easy job). Sometimes the best I could do was say nothing and just study the charactersic of sound. I was intrigued with these comments and wonder if you agree? "hey generally > use Hindu concepts to explain Buddhism, especially the concepts of > kamma, birth and rebirth." Do you think rebirth and kamma are hindu ideas? Robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., "rikpa21" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > > Hi Erik, > > > > 16420 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 23, 2002 10:00am Subject: Perfections Ch 6, Energy, no 9 Perfections Ch 6, Energy, no 9 We read in the ³Anumånasutta², ³Discourse on Measuring in Accordance with² that Mahå- Moggallåna taught the Dhamma and explained to the monks which person is someone who is ³easy to speak to² (susceptible to instruction), and exhorted them to examine themselves as to this 7). He said: Therein, your reverences, a monk should examine himself thus: ³Now, am I of evil desires, in the thrall of evil desires?² If, your reverences, while the monk is reflecting, he knows thus: ³I am of evil desires, in the thrall of evil desires,² then, your reverences, that monk should strive to get rid of those evil, unskilled states. But if, your reverences, that monk, while reflecting, knows thus: ³I am not of evil desires, not in the thrall of evil desires², then he should abide with rapture and delight, training himself diligently day and night in skilled states. The words, ³a monk should examine himself², make it clear to us that someone else cannot examine in detail our akusala to the same extent as we ourselves. We can examine ourselves whether we are today of evil desires, in the thrall of evil desires, and moreover, we should be sincere, truthful to ourselves. If we are of evil desires, we should strive to abandon those evil, unskilled dhammas. Some people do not like to consider their own akusala, but if someone sees the benefit of the development of endeavour for kusala, he should also notice his own akusala. If a person has viriya and makes an effort to examine himself he should be sincere and he should not spare himself. If someone examines himself in this way and strives to give up akusala, he is a person who is ³easy to speak to², susceptible to instruction. A person who is difficult to speak to is the opposite, he does not strive to give up akusala. All this pertains to viriya cetasika. We read in the ³Saddhammapajjotikå², the Commentary to the ³Tuvataka Sutta² (Speedy), in the Mahå-Niddesa, Khuddaka Nikåya, an explanation of the faculty, indriya, of viriya (8: As to the word ³cetasiko², this is used in order to show that energy is always mental and that it is not bodily. There is only mental energy.... Viriya is nåma dhamma which conditions the arising of effort through the body or through citta. Even when we make an effort with the body to do something, we should know that we can make such an effort because of viriya cetasika. The Commentary refers to the Suttas which deal with someone who makes an alley walk, who is walking up and down, so that he is not indolent or sleepy. From the outward appearance this seems to be bodily energy, but in reality it is because of mental energy, viriya cetasika, that effort through the body can arise. The Commentary speaks further on about effort which has developed to the degree of the enlightenment factor of viriya (sambhojjhanga), one of the factors pertaining to the realization of the four noble Truths. The Commentary uses the Påli term viriyårambha. Årambha can mean beginning, attempt or effort. Viriyårambha is viriya cetasika, it is the putting forth of energy, such as effort to apply oneself to the Buddha¹s teachings. We read further on about the characteristic of energy which should be developed 9: Effort is called ³årambha² because it is striving. The term viriyårambha renders the characteristic of that kind of striving. What kind of striving? It is striving by way of escaping from idleness. Onward effort is so called by virtue of reaching a higher and higher state. Exertion is so called by virtue of rising up and keeping going. Endeavour is so called by virtue of special exertion; zeal, of being zealous; vigour, of firmness; fortitude, of bearing (supporting) citta and cetasikas, or of bearing the continuity of kusala by unbroken procedure. These are the characteristics of viriya. It is the escaping from idleness, progressing towards a higher state, continued exertion without stopping, zeal and fortitude by progressing on. Footnotes: 7. A monk who is ³difficult to speak to² does not listen and does not want to be corrected. The monk who is ³easy to speak to² is meek, he listens and is susceptible to instruction. 8. See also the ³Expositor² I, Part IV, Ch 2, 145. 9. See the ³Expositor² I, Part IV, Ch 2, 145-146. 16421 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 23, 2002 10:00am Subject: vimuttatta, to Rahula Dear Rahula, you asked some time ago about vimuttatta, which is: vimutta+ atta, self, being oneself emancipated. Self in conventional sense. I found this in PTS dictionary, and I do not know you had the solution meanwhile. Nina 16422 From: Frank Kuan Date: Wed Oct 23, 2002 2:49pm Subject: right concentration, role of meditation in dhamma practice 37 bodhisattva practices, #29 Higher insight that penetrates right to the essence, Revealing the true way in which things exist, Can only root out our emotional problems If mental quiescence is laid as its base. Thus surpassing the four formless states of absorption We must work to achieve single-minded control, And the full concentration of deep meditation- The Sons of the Buddhas all practice this way. 16423 From: Date: Wed Oct 23, 2002 3:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Practice on DSG Christine: "Everyone acts out of what they think is right understanding. How can there ever be certainty that one is practicing correctly? By anyone?" L: According to the logic of abhidhamma, whenever there is sati there cannot be lobha, dosa, or moha, except as object, of that citta. So whatever you think, feel, or do, if it is with sati, you can't go wrong (in that moment). Larry 16424 From: Charles Thompson Date: Wed Oct 23, 2002 4:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Ch 6, Energy, no 9 Help...... I goofed.............. 1. How do I stop getting e-mail. I will be in Thailand for about 30 days beginning Nov 5. 2. How do I make arrangements to meet you in Thailand? Thanks. a student, dhammasaro below deleted......................... 16425 From: Brian Kelley Date: Wed Oct 23, 2002 5:05pm Subject: Re: A Question about proximate cause Hi Rob, You wrote: > Somebody else had a similar problem but it worked okay after they > downloaded the latest version of Acrobat Reader (5.05?). Failing > that, I could email to you the font file (.ttf format), if you think > that it might help. I just checked, and that is the version of Acrobat Reader that I have. If it's not too much trouble, if you could send that font off-list to bkelley1@n..., that would be very helpful, thank you. > Wow! What an ambitious project! What is the time frame? I hope that > you will be posting your work on a web-page, because even partially > completed, it will be an excellent resource. > > Nina's book "Cetasikas" (available at the Zolag site mentioned > earlier) will be an invaluable resource for you. > > Had you considered adding charts for the 24 conditions (Again, > Nina's book on the subject is excellent) and Paticcasamuppada as > well? > > I believe that Bhikkhu Bodhi is planning to relocate from Sri Lanka > to your neck of the woods (not sure of the details, Sarah will know) > in the near future. I would say that you are lucky, but that would > be mana :-) I think of this project (working title: AbhidhammaThing) as an open-ended, ongoing project. I hadn't really thought seriously about making it available publically for a long time. I would want people more familiar with the Abhidhamma than I am to go over it to make sure I didn't get anything wrong... I've now downloaded Ms. van Gorkom's books on Rupas, Cetasikas, and Conditions, and look forward to studying them. Yes, there's going to be a module on the 24 conditions. Heres the basic structure I've outlined: 5 reference sections and 2 interactive sections. Module 1: The 28 Material Phenomena (reference) Module 2: The 52 Mental Factors (reference) Module 3: The 89 (or 121) Mind Moments (reference) Module 4: The Series of 17 Mind Moments (reference) Module 5: The 24 Conditions (reference) Module 6: Examples from daily life (interactive -- a step-by-step "wizard") Module 7: Build your own mind moment, or series (interactive) Eventually I hope to add additional links to all of the modules, linking the material to discourses in the Sutta Pitaka (probably external links to Access to Insight). As I mentioned in an email to Sarah, I've heard that Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi might be coming to BCBS sometime next year, so I'm very hopeful that I might be able to attend that course. Thanks so much for your continued help and guidance, Rob. With much metta, Brian 16426 From: rikpa21 Date: Wed Oct 23, 2002 9:13pm Subject: Re: On Wisdom, the Visuddhimagga, & Buddhadasa Bikkhu --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "rjkjp1" wrote: Hi Robert, > Dear erik, > So glad > to hear you are coping with your new new charge. I have been through > it and ran away a couple of couple times but as Rob M. has mentioned > rearing children can be a practice in itself. You ain't kiddin'! :) > So many occasions for khanti (patience)to have the chance > e to arise . Exactly the practice I'm most in need of. My lama has ensured that I get as much training in the khanti area as possible (as impatience is perhaps one of my greatest faults), and has for many (many!) years now. From the Dhammapada: "Enduring patience is the highest austerity. 'Nibbana is supreme,' say the Buddhas." In my life, the most difficult endeavor has been bearing the slings and arrows of sometimes outrageous fortune, without allowing the mind to go into the tiolet. In this regard I routinely fail the test. About a couple of months ago I was full of mana regarding progress in the paramita of patience, given difficulties already endured and the dramatically lowered mental disturbances regarding things that used to cause me to wig out. This recent adventure has been just the kick I needed to remind me that between the visa troubles, difficult people (particularly bureaucrats), and general instability of just about everything (job, living situation, etc.), that I am only a very sorry beginner in this area, still. The Dhammapada notes: "Put anger away, abandon pride, overcome every attachment, cling not to Mind and Body and thus be free from sorrow." Of course, one with truly well-developed patience would not have had cause to experience mental agitation: dosa regarding unpleasant situations, ill-will towards others (Dh. 2, 3): "He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me,"—-in those who harbour such thoughts hatred will never cease. He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me,"-—in those who do not harbour such thoughts hatred will cease." Truly words to live by. I recall being pretty agitated and angry there for a while, regarding what I perceived as callous and unreasonable treatment that wound up costing us enormous time and money. But then again, that "problem" actually turned out to be a blessing in disguise for many people, since without that "problem" we wouldn't have an adopted son, Eath would have never met her birth mother (who she'd been looking for for years), and so on. Observing the cause-and-effect present in these experiences, I can trace a direct link back to the fiery dukkha of dosa/vyapada due to lack of sufficient forbearance: lack of forbearance in enduring difficult situations; lack of forbearance in restraining anger and ill-will toward those who appear to be acting oppressively toward "me". In all, a very general, system-wide failure in the forbearance department (of course not helped by being exhausted and travel-cranky from the back & forth between Siem Reap & Phnonm Penh, having my credit cards cancelled on me while I was stuck there and trying to sort that near-disaster out, and just generally running around like a crazy dog trying to get all kinds of legal paperwork sorted out). I like this page on khanti that demonstrates the perfection of khanti by the Buddha in a Jataka story: http://www.geocities.com/ekchew.geo/khanti.htm And some more on khanti: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel116.html#ch4 My favorite text of all on patience has been Master Shantideva's commentary on the developing the Paramita of Patience. I have found myself referring to it again and again and again, out of necessity. It is said that without the development of khanti, the development of viriya and the higher modes of training is extremely difficult. This past month has been a real spur to train harder in the practice of forbearance, since it's obviously not nearly as developed as it should be if the mind is disturbed so easily. Given this has been the strongest dosa and ill-will experienced in a long time toward anyone, I have begun applying the antidote practice of metta bhavana, and especially attempting to turn the object of dosa into an object of metta, karuna, mudita, and upekkha using my favorite antidote recitation "Mind Training in Eight Verses"--which emphasizes seeing those who appear to oppress us as our most sacred teachers, since they show us the way to developing the greatest austerity, patience, and provide us with an opportunity we would not have otherwise have had to cultivate this critical parami. >(And sometimes it doesn't but my suggestion is to be patient > with your own impatience - it is no easy job). Truly sage advice. I was forced to laugh at myself yesterday when thinking "dammit, when is this patience training going to end already?" :) > Sometimes the best I could do was say > nothing and just study the charactersic of sound. That is an excellent idea. Given the many mental disturbances conditioned by sound lately, I take your suggestion here with gratitude. > I was intrigued with these comments and wonder if you agree? > "hey generally > > use Hindu concepts to explain Buddhism, especially the concepts of > > kamma, birth and rebirth." I think it's generally understood that kamma and rebirth have been a part of the continuum of Indian philosophies that existed long before the time of the Buddha, though in different guises and with different connotations. What I interpret Buddhadasa Bikkhu to be saying here is that the notions of kamma & rebirth are conventional notions applied to non-truly-existing "persons," that some later commentators have misunderstood and perhaps reified (though I'd need a much fuller context on this point to say anything more intelligent, and don't want to misrepresent Buddhadasa Bikkhu's points). > Do you think rebirth and kamma are hindu ideas? Most certainly. They are also Buddhist ideas, not to mention ideas held by many Christians and countless people of various stripes, religious, spiritual, or not. It is, I think, a matter of interpretation. Where I see the Buddhist Dhamma differ from other systems, is that the Buddha taught that kamma and rebirth are mere conventions, and not suggestive of there being a permanent ego- entity, "atta"; and not as "truly established," but rather, as imputed in dependence on impersonal causes and conditions which are themselves empty of independent existence. Cheers, Erik 16427 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Wed Oct 23, 2002 10:10pm Subject: Re: Khandha = Mara? Dear Rahula, --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "rahula_80" wrote: Hi, My understanding of Buddhism is that it did NOT teach that the five aggregates (Pali. khandha, Sanskrit. skandha) are mara but clinging to the aggregates. Is my understanding correct? If it is not, please correct me. If it is, please read on. I found these two suttas problematic to my understanding and at least one person, Shakya Aryanatta have accuse Bhikkhu Bodhi of mistranslating the suttas. They are maara sutta.m and maaradhammasutta.m. They are located in Sa.myuttanikaayo, Khandhavaggapali, Raadhasa.myutta.m, Dutiyavaggo. These suttas says that the aggregates are mara. KKT: I have a remark maybe irrelevant but interesting: The Surangama Sutra, a famous Mahayana Sutra, has a very long chapter describing in detail << the 50 states of Mara caused by the five aggregates >> (each aggregate causes 10 states, thus 10 x 5 = 50) Maybe this chapter of the Surangama Sutra has root from the two above Suttas ? KKT 16428 From: Sarah Date: Wed Oct 23, 2002 10:27pm Subject: Welcome Dhammasaro, (was:Re: [dsg] Perfections Ch 6, Energy, no 9) Hi Dhammasaro (Charles), --- Charles Thompson wrote: > Help...... > > I goofed.............. .... This is a pretty unusual intro to DSG;-) Welcome anyway and hope to hear a little more about you and your interest in Buddhism. Where are you now? .... > > 1. How do I stop getting e-mail. I will be in Thailand for about 30 > days > beginning Nov 5. .... Go to the homepage and in the top right corner it says 'edit my membership'. Click here and change your setting to 'no mail'. You can still read it anytime on the homepage: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup When you want to get mail again, you just switch the setting back to how it was. ..... > 2. How do I make arrangements to meet you in Thailand? ..... I'm not sure if this was meant to be addressed to Nina or anyone from DSG. In any case, as a first step, I suggest you send a note off-list to Rob K, who'll all be in Bkk when you arrive and will be happy to meet up with you and take you to the foundation for any discussion with A.Sujin. Betty, Sukin, Num and a few others from DSG are also in Bkk and will be happy to help. Nina, ourselves and one or two others from DSG will be in Bkk at the very end of the month briefly. Pls send me a note off-list if you have any problems or if I can help further with this.(The same applies to anyone else visiting Bkk). .... > > Thanks. > > a student, > > dhammasaro .... Out of interest, is the 'sar' in your name shortened from sara.na as in 'refuge in the dhamma'? Best regards, Sarah ===== 16429 From: Purnomo . Date: Wed Oct 23, 2002 11:20pm Subject: RE: [dsg] bali blast dear all my friends I am very thank for you. You have helped me that my anger and sad are dukkha. I know that I lost control in the last. I know that we(balinesse) have been missing a life of peace. May we(buddhists) keep our metta. metta, purnomo 16430 From: Purnomo . Date: Wed Oct 23, 2002 11:48pm Subject: cryology dear friends, have you known about a dog for some days was frozen ? we must think that the dog was died. But, it wasn't. After the dog was processed so its temperature normal, it is life. Until now the dog is life. And now a child have been trying to proof of cryology theory. is it possible a man keep living in a temperature when his blood wasn't bleeding ? please see article about cryology in http://www.science-tech.nmstc.ca/english/schoolzone/Info_Science2.cfm metta, purnomo 16431 From: Sarah Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 1:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Wisdom, the Visuddhimagga, & Buddhadasa Bikkhu Oh Erik, You do enjoy rocking the boat and shaking us all up when we’re quietly and cosily leading a peaceful life;-) --- rikpa21 wrote: > --- In > Yes, we're all doing well, and Eath and our son are doing well, > though if there has ever been a test of patience, dealing with a > five-year-old monkey with boundless energy has left us both > completely exhausted. Thanks for your kind consideration. May you > and all beings be well and free from dukkha! :) ..... I can just imagine the change in your lifestyle on the mountain;-) I’ve been working with groups of monkeys (small children with boundless energy) for a long-time, so I know all about the patience tests too. I appreciated the reminders in the latest extract from K.Sujin’s ‘Perfections’. Sometimes we think we don’t have enough energy to cope, but ‘there is only mental energy’ and the question is only whether there is any wholesome energy at these times: “As to the word ‘cetasiko’, this is used in order to show that energy is always mental and that it is not bodily. There is only mental energy.... Viriya is nåma dhamma which conditions the arising of effort through the body or through citta. Even when we make an effort with the body to do something, we should know that we can make such an effort because of viriya cetasika. The Commentary refers to the Suttas which deal with someone who makes an alley walk, who is walking up and down, so that he is not indolent or sleepy. From the outward appearance this seems to be bodily energy, but in reality it is because of mental energy, viriya cetasika, that effort through the body can arise. The Commentary speaks further on about effort which has developed to the degree of the enlightenment factor of viriya (sambhojjhanga), one of the factors pertaining to the realization of the four noble Truths. The Commentary uses the Påli term viriyårambha. Årambha can mean beginning, attempt or effort. Viriyårambha is viriya cetasika, it is the putting forth of energy, such as effort to apply oneself to the Buddha’s teachings.” ***** And now I’m just questioning whether there is enough ‘energy’ (preferably of the wholesome kind) to consider your other comments with regard to Bhuddhadasa’s views. ..... > > 2. "I would say this about religious leaders who teach that > views > and > > teachings, or deeds and rituals, or anything else will make you > pure; I > > would say that these men, living in this world, have not gone > beyond birth > > and ageing.” (Sutta Nipata, Nanda’s questions) > > This could easily imlpy that the entire Visuddhimagga runs counter > to what the Buddha taught, which uses views, teachings, deeds, and > rituals as a means of purification that leads to release. ..... I hope I’m not missing any dry wit here, Erik or ‘tongue-in-cheek’ comments on your part. Just in case, I’ll add a few of my own. What you suggest here would, as I understand, be missing a)the meaning of the sutta which is specifically referring to wrong views etc and b)the entire Visuddhimagga which discusses and elaborates in detail the development of panna (right view) and the knowledge of truths as found in the suttas for those able to appreciate them. In another post, I referred to suttas in the Sutta Nipata: “.... in this sutta (Dutthatthaka Sutta), as in the suttas you quoted from before in Sutta Nipata, let’s be quite clear that the Buddha is referring to wrong views and unwholesome mental states. ‘One whose doctinres aren’t clean’. In the translation by Saddhatissa, we read: “He whose views are mentally. constructed, causally formed, highly esteemed but not pure..”.The next but one sutta, the Paramatthaka sutta, specifically refers in the translation I have to ‘dogmatic view’ and how the ‘brahmin is not led by rule and rite’. These are wrong views or wrong understandings (i.e. the opposite of samma ditthi, the first factor of the noble 8fold Path) that are referred to.” ***** As we can see in the case of just one sutta, the Satipatthana sutta or even just in one phrase like ‘ekaayano’, there is nothing simple about the understanding of the suttas. We all read the suttas with different interpretations. Some of us find it helpful to look at the commentaries by Buddhaghosa and others which have been accepted with the greatest respect by the Theravada sangha since the time they were written down. I also understand the origins of the commentaries and Abhidhamma to date from the Buddha’s own lifetime and from his Teachings and those of his great disciples such as MahaKassapa, Sariputta, MahaKaccayana, Ananda and so on who were entrusted to elaborate as appropriate. In the series on the commentary to the Vinaya, I quoted from Malalasekera (The Pali Literature of Ceylon); “When later the text of the canon came to be compiled, arranged, and edited, some of the expositions found their way into the Pitakas and were given a permanent place therein. Thus we have the Sangiti-suttanta of the Digha Nikaya, ascribed to Sariputta and forming a complete catechism of terms and passages of exegetical nature. Such was also the Sacca-vibhanga (an exposition of the four Noble Truths) of the Majjhima, which later found its proper place in the second book of the Abhidhamma-Pitaka, and also the Madhu-pindika-sutta of Maha-Kaccayana, included in the Majjhima Nikaya. It sometimes happened that for a proper understanding of the text, explanations of a commentarial nature were quite essential; and in such cases the commentary was naturally incorporated into the text and formed part of the text itself.......Then there is the Niddesa, a whole book of commentary on texts now included in the Sutta-nipata; and there are passages clearly of a commentarial nature scattered throughout the Nikayas.” ***** I quite understand that many Buddhists, including well-respected teachers do not accept the commentaries or Abhidhamma, especially when what they read does not conform with their own understanding. They may even wish to ignore the Sutta Nipata for this reason;-) There is nothing new in this at all. One always has the choice of whether to follow one’s own commentary, other modern commentaries or those originating in the Buddha’s time and accepted at various Councils and carefully preserved down the centuries by the Sangha. Any suggestion that an appreciation of the Abhidhamma dates from post WW11 or is restricted to Thailand, however, would be quite wrong as your Tibetan teachers and anyone familiar with the history of Buddhism in other theravada countries would surely know. There may be minor discrepancies amongst various schools with regard to the details of the First Council, but I understand the Abhidhamma was rehearsed at this time, though as we know, the Kathavatthu was rehearsed later as instructed by the Buddha when the relevant issues arose. I have no reason to doubt the authenticity of the ancient manuscripts which Buddhaghosa based his works on (no longer available), but appreciate there will always be controversy. Certainly the commentaries were very well received by the Sangha which I believe still included large numbers of arahants at that time.In the end, as you often remind us, 'the proof is in the pudding'. In my case, I am not a (Buddhist) teacher or scholar and I am not Thai. I was brought up with a very different set of traditions and Establishments. If I can share a little of what has given me the greatest inspiration and confidence in dhamma, however, I’m glad to do so. If the decline of the Teachings accelerates as a result of the discarding of those parts of the Tipitaka which do not conform with the understanding of influential teachers, so be it. In your case, Erik, you have access to the Abhidhamma as taught in various schools by some of the finest and most knowledgable teachers who have encouraged you to understand and see the benefit of it in your daily life. These are opportunities that few others have in this lifetime. We all know you are conventionally very intelligent and gifted. I sincerely hope there is enough spiritual honesty and patience to persevere with the development of understanding as taught in the entire Tipitaka and not to follow the example of discarding those parts which seem too difficult to comprehend or those parts which do not conform with dearly held beliefs about self, kamma and rebirth, for example, when the going gets tough and there is doubt and confusion. As we know, in the decline of the Teachings, the Abhidhamma is the first part of the Tipitaka to be lost. It’s not difficult to see why and how this is so. In one word: Ignorance. ..... > On that note, just to stir the pot a bit, I find Buddhadasa Bikkhu's > sharp critiques of both the Visuddhimagga and the Abhidhamma worthy > of careful consideration and dispassionate analysis: ... > I really appreciate Buddhadasa Bikkhu's fearlessly taking on the > Establishment in an attempt to help others divest themselves of the > dogmatism, sectarianism, speculations, and rites and rituals--all > bound up in miccha ditthi, and far removed from the Buddha's actual > teachings in the Suttas. ..... Erik, I sincerely hope that for the main part you are just stirring the pot.... I really appreciate the opportunity to hear and consider from all parts of the Tipitaka and the commentaries such as the Visuddhimagga. Without this access, I would probably still be following the miccha ditthi path as expounded by many teachers today in the name of courage, fearlessness and daring in ‘taking on the Establishment.’ I never thought I’d be a representative of any ‘Establishment’ but in this case, I’m honoured;-) Sarah ======= 16432 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 4:29am Subject: Re: On Wisdom, the Visuddhimagga, & Buddhadasa Bikkhu Daer Erik, With such a complete and excellent reply what is left for me to say.. Robert--- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "rikpa21" wrote: > --- > > Exactly the practice I'm most in need of. My lama has ensured that I > get as much training in the khanti area as possible (as impatience > is perhaps one of my greatest faults), and has for many (many!) > years now. > > From the Dhammapada: "Enduring patience is the highest austerity. > 'Nibbana is supreme,' say the Buddhas." > > In my life, the most difficult endeavor has been bearing the slings > and arrows of sometimes outrageous fortune, without allowing the > mind to go into the tiolet. In this regard I routinely fail the test. > > About a couple of months ago I was full of mana regarding progress > in the paramita of patience, given difficulties already endured and > the dramatically lowered mental disturbances regarding things that > used to cause me to wig out. This recent adventure has been just the > kick I needed to remind me that between the visa troubles, difficult > people (particularly bureaucrats), and general instability of just > about everything (job, living situation, etc.), that I am only a > very sorry beginner in this area, still. > > The Dhammapada notes: "Put anger away, abandon pride, overcome every > attachment, cling not to Mind and Body and thus be free from sorrow." > 16433 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 4:42am Subject: Re: Should the Garden be left to Grow? Hi Rob, Tom and all, Rob - I am finding your post hard to understand given that I am learning about death and rebirth being only consecutive moments, how and where does the change in the 'worthiness' of the everchanging stream of cittas occur from being (say) a Bhikkhu [whose murder would carry heavy kamma] to the next moment being reborn as a caterpillar, lizard or spider whose deliberate or indifferent death you consider not worth focusing on compared with 'helping an old lady across the street'? I wonder if you could you please give me the sutta references for "> The second consideration is the being that is killed. Killing a > virtuous human is more serious than killing a non-virtuous human. > Killing a human is more serious than killing an animal. Killing a > large animal is more serious than killing a small animal."> I'm assuming it would be a sutta spoken by the Buddha (and that there would be many such suttas) for such an vital moral and ethical point as to 'who it is not so serious' to harm or kill ... I only know things like Dhammapada 131 "Whoever, seeking his own happiness, harms with the rod pleasure-loving beings gets no happiness hereafter." which the Buddha spoke to children tormenting a snake, and the Metta Sutta "In safety and in bliss May creatures all be of a blissful heart. Whatever breathing beings there may be. No matter whether they are frail or firm, With none excepted, be they long or big Or middle-sized, or be they short or small Or thick, as well as those seen or unseen, Or whether they are dwelling far or near, Existing or yet seeking to exist. May creatures all be of a blissful heart. Let no one work another one's undoing Or even slight him at all anywhere: And never let them wish each other ill Through provocation or resentful thought." And just as might a mother with her life Protect the son that was her only child, So let him then for every living thing Maintain unbounded consciousness in being;" If these distinctions you quote between the greater and lesser seriousness of kammic consequences of actions depending on the virtue, size or species of the living being concerned - would there be distinctions in the within a species? Say hurting/killing a bright intelligent high school graduate compared to a two year old born mentally disabled? hurting/killing a male compared to a female? hurting/killing a unborn fetus compared to a neonate? I have been reading "Attitude to and treatment of the natural world" in 'An Introduction to Buddhist Ethics' by Peter Harvey. "One's present fortunate position as a human is only a temporary state of affairs, dependent on past good karma. One cannot isolate oneself from the plight of animals, as one has oneself experienced it, just as animals have had past rebirths as humans. Moreover, in the ancient round of rebirths, every being one comes across, down to an insect, will at some time have been a close relative or friend, and have been very good to one. Bearing this in mind, one shouldreturn the kindness in the present." metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Tom, > > An imaginary conversation: > > Friend: Rob! You have shaved your head! Have you decided to become a > monk? > > Rob: No, I have taken up competitive swimming. I read in a magazine > that shaving my head will reduce resistance cutting 0.04 sec from my > lap time. > > Friend: Rob, you are 10kg overweight and spend less than one hour a > week in the pool. Why don't you focus on the more important issues > before thinking about cutting 0.04 sec from your lap time? > > > > Killing insects creates bad kamma. However, let us consider the > weightiness of the kamma created. The most important consideration > in kammic weightiness is the quality of the underlying volition > (intention). Are you malciously, sadistically and cruelly, seeking > out to kill these insects? If so, that is worse kamma than failing > to stop the lawnmower in time before you run over a poor worm. > > The second consideration is the being that is killed. Killing a > virtuous human is more serious than killing a non-virtuous human. > Killing a human is more serious than killing an animal. Killing a > large animal is more serious than killing a small animal. > > The bottom line is that if you are like me, before breakfast each > day you end up doing ten bad things more weighty than killing an > insect. > > By all means, avoid killing insects if you can. However, don't lose > sight of the big picture; the mind is the forerunner of all things; > work on your mental states to avoid greed/attachment (lobha), > hatred/aversion (dosa) and delusion (moha). > > Another thing to think about is the incredible power of good kammic > actions. Remember the ending of the movie, "Monsters, Inc.", when > they discovered that laughter has ten times the energy of screams? A > bit of dana (generosity), sila (discipline) or bhavana (meditation) > creates lots and lots of good kamma. So rather than focusing on > issues such as the killing of insects, perhaps you could focus > on "helping an old lady to cross the street". > > With Metta, > Rob M :-) 16434 From: Sarah Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 5:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] ekayana Dear All, I followed all the discussions on ‘ekaayana’ with interest. I believe it’s an important point as it both affects and is influenced by one’s understanding of the sutta. I’d like to summarise what I understand to date, though I appreciate that others may have come to other conclusions: > B.Bodhi wrote: > In any case, ‘ekaayana’ cannot possibly > mean "only," in the sense that Satipatthana is the only way, for the > simple reason that one cannot derive such a meaning from eka + ayana > (one > + going). ..... B.Bodhi mentions, however (MN n135) that ‘virtually all translators understand this as a statement upholding satipa.t.thaana as an exclusive path. Thus Ven Soma renders it: “This is the only way, O bhikkhus,” and Ven. Nyanaponika: “This is the sole way, monks.”.....' ..... My Pali knowledge is too limited to question this point. However, in the PTS Rhys Davids/Stede dict, it mentions “only” as a common meaning as in ‘ekadivasena’ - on the one day only, i.e on the same day (J 1.59) or as meaning one, by oneself, one only, alone, solitary as in ‘ekuddesa’ (Aiii67). For ‘ayana’ the dict. gives 2 meanings of a) “going’, road and b) going to goal and mentions ekayana maggo in this context. Jim wrote: “A literal translation of the phrasing is: "one way, monks, is this path" but because of the compound state of 'ekaayano' there are a number of ways 'eka' can be syntactically related to 'ayano' that allows for some different and equally valid interpretations as given in Soma's commentary translation. This is a good example of the limitations of an English translation in that it can choose only one of these interpretations for a sutta translation.” ***** As I understand, all the various meanings as translated by Ven Soma below are correct and should be understood in the phrase “ekaayano aya.m bhikkave maggo”. In brief, the development of satipatthana is the only way that nibbana can ever be realized. Regardless of whether samatha has been developed and jhanas attained or not, only the development of right understanding and the other factors of the eightfold path can lead to the goal and can fully comprehend the three characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta. Furthermore it can only be developed ‘alone’ in the sense of ‘being withdrawn from craving’. The path is only taught by the Buddha or from the Teachings in a Buddha era. Those who have not heard and considered the Teachings cannot develop satipatthana or the various insights. Furthemore, the (mundane)path ‘goes solely’ to Nibbana, by understanding the characteristics and nature of all the various objects (i.e paramattha dhammas)included in the four satipatthanas repeatedly. Sarah ====== _______________________________________________________ From the commentary and sub-commentary notes: "The only way" = The one way [Ekayanoti ekamaggo]. There are many words for "way". The word used for "way" here is "ayana" ("going" or road). Therefore, "This is the only way, O bhikkhus [ekayano ayam bhikkhave maggo]" means here: "A single way ("going" or road), O bhikkhus, is this way; it is not of the nature of a double way [ekamaggo ayam bhikkhave maggo na dvedhapathabhuto]". Or it is "the only way" because it has to be trodden by oneself only [ekeneva ayitabbo]. That is without a companion. The state of being companionless is twofold: without a comrade, after abandoning contact with the crowd, and in the sense of being withdrawn (or secluded) from craving, through tranquillity of mind. Or it is called "ekayana" because it is the way of the one [ekassa ayana]. "Of the one" = of the best; of all beings the Blessed One is best. Therefore, it is called the Blessed One's Way. Although others too go along that way, it is the Buddha's because he creates it. Accordingly it is said: "He, the Blessed One, is the creator of the uncreated path, O Brahman." It proceeds (or exists) only in this Doctrine-and-discipline and not in any other. Accordingly the Master declared: "Subhadda, only in this Doctrine-and-discipline is the Eightfold Way to be found." And further, "ekayana" means: It goes to the one [ekam ayati] -- that is, it (the way) goes solely to Nibbana. Although in the earlier stages this method of meditation proceeds on different lines, in the latter, it goes to just the one Nibbana. And that is why Brahma Sahampati said: Whose mind perceiving life's last dying out Vibrates with love, he knows the only way That led in ancient times, is leading now, And in the future will lead past the flood.[6] As Nibbana is without a second, that is, without craving as accompanying quality, it is called the one. Hence it is said: "Truth is one; it is without a second." Why is the Arousing of Mindfulness intended by the word "way"? Are there not many other factors of the way, namely, understanding, thinking, speech, action, livelihood, effort, and concentration, besides mindfulness? To be sure there are. But all these are implied when the Arousing of Mindfulness is mentioned, because these factors exist in union with mindfulness. Knowledge, energy and the like are mentioned in the analytically expository portion [niddese]. In the synopsis [uddese], however, the consideration should be regarded as that of mindfulness alone, by way of the mental disposition of those capable of being trained. Some [keci], however, construing according to the stanza beginning with the words, "They do not go twice to the further shore [na param digunam yanti]"[7] say, "One goes to Nibbana once, therefore it is ekayana." This explanation is not proper. Because in this instruction the earlier part of the Path is intended to be presented, the preliminary part of the Way of Mindfulness proceeding in the four objects of contemplation is meant here, and not the supramundane Way of Mindfulness. And that preliminary part of the Path proceeds (for the aspirant) many times; or it may be said that there is many a going on it, by way of repetition of practice. In what sense is it a "way"? In the sense of the path going towards Nibbana, and in the sense of the path which is the one that should be (or is fit to be) traversed by those who wish to reach Nibbana. ________________________________________________________ 16435 From: Sarah Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 6:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Should the Garden be left to Grow? Hi Tom, --- proctermail wrote: > Hi, > > Firstly a little introduction - i am Sarah's nephew tom. this is my > first real excursion into this site and my buddhist knowledge thin so > please forgive any ignorance. .... Of course Jon and I are delighted to see you here again after a very long break;-) I hope you and family are well and I'm sorry I didn't get to Sussex (or England) in the summer. I'm interested in your question (ignorance is very welcome and common amongst us), like the way you put it and am appreciating Rob M's and Christine's fine replies (in spite of C's attempts to show up my ignorance of gulping snakes - I expect I hear them in my sleep;-)) Anyway, I hope they give you some practical assistance....Let us know. Here in high-rise Hong Kong, the only occasional home critter probs we have are with an occasional cockroach. As there's seldom any food in the place, luckily they soon learn to visit other tastier flats. Yesterday, a student found a catterpillar in a pack of cards and screeched out "there's a horrible worm", whilst raising a foot to stamp on it. To the horror of a few, I very nimbly rescued the poor thing just in time and nursed it til the end of the class when it was taken outside. I expect a few parents will have heard about your wierd aunt's strange friends by now. I remember when we last me, we also had a very good discussion about 'realities'. I hope that when you've sorted out the practical concerns, you'll raise some of the other philosophical ones and also any comments from the Buddhist books you've been reading that make sense or don't make sense. Love to all, Sarah ====== > > My first question is essentially one of practicality : > > I have found that on occasion, and infact the more it is thought > about the more occasions in which instances of it can be found, that > the action that is taken is often in conflict with mindfulness - for 16436 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 6:47am Subject: Re: Should the Garden be left to Grow? --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hi Rob, Tom and all, > > Rob - I am finding your post hard to understand given that I am > learning about death and rebirth being only consecutive moments, how > and where does the change in the > 'worthiness' of the everchanging stream of cittas occur from being > (say) a Bhikkhu [whose murder would carry heavy kamma] to the next > moment being reborn as a caterpillar, lizard or > spider whose deliberate or indifferent death you consider not worth > focusing on compared with 'helping an old lady across the street'? > I wonder if you could you please give me the sutta references for > "> The second consideration is the being that is killed. Killing a > > virtuous human is more serious than killing a non-virtuous human. > > Killing a human is more serious than killing an animal. Killing a > > large animal is more serious than killing a small animal."> > > I'm assuming it would be a sutta spoken by the Buddha (and that > there would be many such suttas) for such an vital moral and ethical > point as to 'who it is not so serious' to harm or kill ... >___------ Dear Christine, There are a few places in the texts - mostly the commentaries- where it mentions this:In the kuddakatapatha by Buddhaghosa (translated as Minor readings PTS by nanamoli). there is a comprehensive section on the precepts. on p24 -25 it notes that the blamableness of an action varies according to its degree. hence killing a large animal is worse than killing an insect because of the degree of effort involved and other factors. it has many details. Robert 16437 From: robmoult Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 8:42am Subject: Re: Should the Garden be left to Grow? Hi Christine, I took my information from the Atthasalini. I am on the road, so it will take a couple of days to give you the specific reference. However, in line with the theme of that message, let me stress that it is the unerlying volition that has the greatest impact on the kammic weight of an action. Christine, I don't understand your question regarding the 'change in worthiness'; can you ask again a different way? Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > Hi Rob, Tom and all, > > > > Rob - I am finding your post hard to understand given that I am > > learning about death and rebirth being only consecutive moments, > how > > and where does the change in the > > 'worthiness' of the everchanging stream of cittas occur from being > > (say) a Bhikkhu [whose murder would carry heavy kamma] to the next > > moment being reborn as a caterpillar, lizard or > > spider whose deliberate or indifferent death you consider not worth > > focusing on compared with 'helping an old lady across the street'? > > I wonder if you could you please give me the sutta references for > > "> The second consideration is the being that is killed. Killing a > > > virtuous human is more serious than killing a non-virtuous human. > > > Killing a human is more serious than killing an animal. Killing a > > > large animal is more serious than killing a small animal."> > > > > I'm assuming it would be a sutta spoken by the Buddha (and that > > there would be many such suttas) for such an vital moral and > ethical > > point as to 'who it is not so serious' to harm or kill ... > >___------ > Dear Christine, > There are a few places in the texts - mostly the commentaries- where > it mentions this:In the kuddakatapatha by Buddhaghosa (translated as > Minor > readings PTS by nanamoli). > there is a comprehensive section on the precepts. > on p24 -25 it notes that the blamableness of an action varies > according to its degree. hence killing a large animal is worse > than killing an insect because of the degree of effort involved > and other factors. it has many details. > Robert 16438 From: robmoult Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 8:51am Subject: Re: Should the Garden be left to Grow? Hi Christine, Kenneth Ong asked the same question recently and I responded on Sep. 22 (message 15838) as follows: The references are from Atthasalini, Book I, Part III, Section V, "Discourse on Courses of Immoral Action" Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Christine, > > I took my information from the Atthasalini. I am on the road, so it > will take a couple of days to give you the specific reference. > > However, in line with the theme of that message, let me stress that > it is the unerlying volition that has the greatest impact on the > kammic weight of an action. > > Christine, I don't understand your question regarding the 'change in > worthiness'; can you ask again a different way? > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "rjkjp1" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" > > wrote: > > > Hi Rob, Tom and all, > > > > > > Rob - I am finding your post hard to understand given that I am > > > learning about death and rebirth being only consecutive moments, > > how > > > and where does the change in the > > > 'worthiness' of the everchanging stream of cittas occur from > being > > > (say) a Bhikkhu [whose murder would carry heavy kamma] to the > next > > > moment being reborn as a caterpillar, lizard or > > > spider whose deliberate or indifferent death you consider not > worth > > > focusing on compared with 'helping an old lady across the > street'? > > > I wonder if you could you please give me the sutta references > for > > > "> The second consideration is the being that is killed. Killing > a > > > > virtuous human is more serious than killing a non-virtuous > human. > > > > Killing a human is more serious than killing an animal. > Killing a > > > > large animal is more serious than killing a small animal."> > > > > > > I'm assuming it would be a sutta spoken by the Buddha (and that > > > there would be many such suttas) for such an vital moral and > > ethical > > > point as to 'who it is not so serious' to harm or kill ... > > >___------ > > Dear Christine, > > There are a few places in the texts - mostly the commentaries- > where > > it mentions this:In the kuddakatapatha by Buddhaghosa (translated > as > > Minor > > readings PTS by nanamoli). > > there is a comprehensive section on the precepts. > > on p24 -25 it notes that the blamableness of an action varies > > according to its degree. hence killing a large animal is worse > > than killing an insect because of the degree of effort involved > > and other factors. it has many details. > > Robert 16439 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] mara sutta, Rahula Hi Rahula, I really enjoyed your post very much, I like all the Pali you gave us. Maara has many meanigs: the person of Maara, devaputta, and then: kilesa maara, the defilements, and also: all conditioned realities which are impermanent and thus dukkha. Maara is a name that can be used for all that is dukkha. Birth, old age and death are Maara. The PTS dict gives: death, maara can be applied to all conditioned realities: realm of rebirth, opposed to nibbana. Khandha, dhatu, ayatana, they are maara. S, I, Maara Samyutta. Many suttas confirm this, see suttas below that you quoted. op 23-10-2002 10:00 schreef rahula_80 op rahula_80@y...: > > My understanding of Buddhism is that it did NOT teach that the five > aggregates (Pali. khandha, Sanskrit. skandha) are mara but clinging > to the aggregates. > Here are the suttas in Pali. > > 1. Maarasuttam > > Saavatthinidaana.m Ekamanta.m nisinno kho aayasmaa raadho > bhagavanta.m etadavoca– "`maaro, maaro'ti, bhante, vuccati. Katamo nu > kho, bhante, maaro"ti? "Ruupa.m kho, raadha, maaro, vedanaa maaro, > saññaa maaro, sa"nkhaaraa maaro, viññaa.na.m maaro. Eva.m passa.m, > raadha, sutavaa ariyasaavako ruupasmimpi nibbindati, vedanaayapi > nibbindati, saññaayapi nibbindati, sa"nkhaaresupi nibbindati, > viñña.nasmimpi nibbindati. Nibbinda.m virajjati; viraagaa vimuccati. > Vimuttasmi.m vimuttamiti ñaa.na.m hoti. `Khii.naa jaati, vusita.m > brahmacariya.m, kata.m kara.niiya.m, naapara.m itthattaayaa'ti > pajaanaatii"ti. Pathama.m. > > 2. Maaradhammasutta.m > > Saavatthinidaana.m Ekamanta.m nisinno kho aayasmaa raadho > bhagavanta.m etadavoca– "`maaradhammo, maaradhammo'ti, bhante, > vuccati. Katamo nu kho, bhante, maaradhammo"ti? "Ruupa.m kho, raadha, > maaradhammo, vedanaa maaradhammo, saññaa maaradhammo, sa"nkhaaraa > maaradhammo, viññaa.nam maaradhammo. Eva.m passa.m…pe… naapara.m > itthattaayaati pajaanaatii"ti. Dutiya.m. > > Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of Maraadhammasutta.m > > "Venerable Sir, it is said subject to Mara, subject to Mara. What now > venerable Sir is subject to Mara?" > > "Form, Radha is subject to Mara, Feeling is subject to Mara, > Perceptions are subject to Mara, Volitional Formations are Subject to > Mara, Consciousness is subject to Mara. He understands: '... there is > no more for this state of being." N: I would translate straightforward: Mara, but if we think of dukkha mara, it is not wrong to say: subject to. R:Bhikkhu Bodhi's footnote to SN 3.195. #248 footnote > "In the suttas that follow I translate the suffix -dhamma as "nature" > rather than "subject to" > > Even FL Woodward translates this word (maradhamma) correctly and > unglossed as "of the nature of Mara" > However, the commentary to this sutta succintly states: > > maaradhammoti mara.nadhammo "mara's dhamma means dhamma of death" > > Khandhavagga-atthakathaa 2.336 > > Dutiyavaggassa patthame maaro, maaroti mara.na.m pucchati. > yasmaa pana ruupaadivinimutta.m mara.na.m naama natthi, tenassa > bhagavaa ruupa.m kho, raadha, maaroti-aadimaaha. dutiye > maaradhammoti mara.nadhammo. etenupaayena sabbattha attho > veditabboti. << N: ...in this way (etenupaayena) the meaning should be completely understood. > Below are Shakya Aryanatta's translation. Is it correct? If not, why? > > 1. Maarasutta.m > > At one time in Savatthi, the venerable Radha seated himself > and asked of the Blessed Lord "Mara,Mara I hear said venerable. What > pray tell does Mara mean?""Just this, form, Radha is Mara, sensations > are Mara, perceptions are Mara, assemblages are Mara, sentience is > Mara. Seeing thusly?this is the end of birth, the Brahma-life has been > fullfiled, what must be done has been done, he discerns there is > nothing further than this very Soul." > 2. Maaradhammasutta.m > > At one time in Savatthi, the venerable Radha seated himself > and asked of the Blessed Lord "Mara's dharma, Mara's dharma I hear.... N: The tr is OK only the end I am not so happy with: soul, seems like a self. I try to analyse: naapara.m itthattaayaa': na apara.m: not further. apara.m: future state, further. itthattaayaa: ittthatta.m: in the present state of becoming, life in these conditions. This is info of PTS, but it is not complete I am sure. Maybe the experts know more about it (hint). We meet this phrase often in the suttas. I would translate as: there is no more future life. Ittha means here, but we have to be careful to connect this with itthattaayaa. Other derivation: ittha.m, thus, in this way. Itthatta.m: ittha.m-tta (ttha is used to make an adjective abstract sometimes), the present state, this life. Now more about the sutta: Why was it spoken? To remind us that the five khandhas, such as hardness now, feeling now, thinking now are conditioned realities, dukkha maara. But we do not know maara. In order to escape mara there is only one way: to be aware of them when they appear just now, because there is maara now. When panna has further developed the noble Truth of dukkha can be realized. When we know mara as mara we can conquer mara. Meanwhile: each sutta reminds us of the truth of this moment. As Ken H recently said: I also want to quote from Rob K's post (Somporn 2) what A. Sujin said. It is so true that tanha and avijja always fool us. They are just like mara fooling us, they are in disguise and pretend to be understanding: Nina. 16440 From: proctermail Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 1:54pm Subject: Re: Should the Garden be left to Grow? Hi Christine and group, Thanks for your comments - you have elaborated the question well and given me more to think about. Your problem of ants is similar to another I have - slugs. It is very wet here and even my carpet gets wet when it rains so slugs are encouraged to come inside. I agree that prevention in is probably an acceptable way forward - I removed as many slugs as I could find and then placed salt in the likely places where they got in - hopefully I have discouraged them not killed them and have had less of a problem since. There is prob some negative kamma invilved but it could be worse - perhaps leave a bowl of water outside for the ants (though this may encourage!). I guess I realise that the garden has to be cut back but i once killed a frog inadvertantly whilst strimming. It is also interesting what you say about sentient beings as we think of plants as living and dying and returning to the earth to be reborn in another format but I guess thats a whole different discussion topic! tp --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear group, > > Tom's comments raised the old issues of 'sentient' beings, 'kamma' > and 'rebirth' for me once again. > > It is good to 'hear' from you, Tom. Welcome to dsg. I ask similar > questions occasionally. [Do you hear snakes making gulping sounds > like your Aunt Sarah? - I was just wondering if it is a genetically > inherited talent to attract those rare reptiles? ;-) ] > Excerpt from post 12552 "Chris: - Keeping on your good side after the > mention of B.Bodhi, I > won't mention any scepticism about snakes making a 'gulping' sound. > If you say it did Sarah, then it did! > This brings up a Dhamma focus question (seriously) - Is there a > Buddhist scripture relating to "not saving" - this is pertinent for > me, having rescued a small lizard caught up in a spider web. I'm not > sure if the lizard was grateful, But the spider was furious...no > dinner, and having to repair his home... So - was it a good > thing...saving another being? or was it a bad thing....depriving a > being of sustenance, and damaging his living area? Should we let > whatever is happening to another being (human or otherwise) happen? > If we intervene, are we just delaying the fruits of their > kamma?....Or were we meant to save them?" > > I, too, ask about the dilemma of 'other beings' from time to time. > What to do about spiders, cane toads, frogs, cockroaches, ants, > wasps, snakes, lizards, mice, rats and possums that seek to share my > outside and inside living space. It is often difficult to discuss - > most buddhists don't really take it seriously. Rebirth (if even > accepted as a possibility) is not thought of as anything other than > another human birth by many buddhists. So the value of the lives of > insects, reptiles and other creatures seems to be given lip service > only. Only one choice is usually considered when human comfort is > involved (and it is mostly comfort, not health) - extermination. > Currently, Queensland is undergoing the worst drought in over a > hundred years. (There is to be a huge ecumenical Service led by the > Archbishop and the State's Premier today in the Cathedral to pray for > rain. Inevitably the prayers will be answered - I hope they put in a > clause about 'timeliness of response'.) But, on a micro level, the > ant population (always the ones with the most initiative, next to > humans and rats) are invading my kitchen sink - they can't walk 200 > metres to the rapidly drying dam for a drink, I expect. And, besides > which, it is shoulder to shoulder with insect eating cattle egrets > and ibis out there. The ants are also sending scouts out to locate > the sugar bowl, crumbs and any other food sources. Nothing much > outside - the grass is brown and crunchy underfoot. The local cattle > are being grazed on the roadsides, 'the long paddock'. > For anyone who remembers, Rachel the rat has disappeared. > I believe prevention is the best choice and if I was starting off in > a brand new house it would be easier. This week, because of the dire > weather conditions (37 C and not half way through Spring yet) and > raging bush fires (one human death so far, 'Others' not collected > statistically), I have a tree lopping service coming to cut back many > of the trees the 'Others' use as ladders onto/into the roof space. > The mother possum is welcome to the sheds - but I would really prefer > the rats' relatives to relocate entirely. > I understand that scrupulous cleanliness is a given, but when > conditions for survival are harsh to extreme outside, this doesn't > prevent a clash of species' 'needs and wants' occurring. > Should we just put out the 'rat bait' and 'surface spray' and call > it 'their results of previous kamma' and 'commonsense' - maybe take > up a mantra like 'there is no self - no-one who kills, no-one who > dies' ... but if rebirth is truth, and I wipe out a nest of 30,000 > ant beings deliberately, would saying 'I tried everything, but they > just kept coming to the sink, so I had no choice ...' really wipe > out the affects of my kamma? And will we ever get out of samsara if > the deliberate killing of an insect is equivalent to killing beings > more like 'us'? - an imponderable, I know. > > Tom, with regards to the garden, I think cutting back shrubs and > trees from a Buddhist perspective is O.K. - isn't the precept about > not killing applicable only to sentient beings (those who are > beathing, and can feel fear)? Though knowingly entirely removing the > things which a sentient being needs to sustain life would be another > issue, as would garden insecticides and herbicides, so I believe. > For more, look under "Animals" in Useful Posts and then follow the > links and replies - > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts > Welcome again, and hope to 'hear' you regularly, > metta, > Christine > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "proctermail" wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Firstly a little introduction - i am Sarah's nephew tom. this is my > > first real excursion into this site and my buddhist knowledge thin > so > > please forgive any ignorance. > > > > My first question is essentially one of practicality : > > > > I have found that on occasion, and infact the more it is thought > > about the more occasions in which instances of it can be found, > that > > the action that is taken is often in conflict with mindfulness - > for > > example, when you clean you often find spiders and spiders webs in > > your house - to remove these hence possibly killing the spiders and > > destroying their homes in the process is asserting a selfish notion > > ie clean over a non selfish one of preserve life and allow things > to > > be. It could I guess be argued that if they died in right > mindfulness > > (a prayer for example) then nothing would be disrupted but... > > > > I origianally thought of this ages ago and emailed Sarah about it, > > but it has developed - hence the time taken to post. The same would > > apply to gardening - should i let it grow? 16441 From: Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 3:25pm Subject: Way 16, Comm. "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html Continuing commentary on: "for the attainment of Nibbana" Further, this is an expression of praise of "the only way". Just as the Blessed One by way of eight characteristics expressed praise in the Cha Chakka Sutta, and by way of nine characteristics in the Ariyavamsa Sutta, just in the same way he expressed praise of this "only way", through the seven characteristics contained in the words "For the purification of beings", and so forth. Why did he utter talk of praise of this kind? For the purpose of bringing out the interest of these bhikkhus. The Blessed One thought: "Having heard the utterance of praise, these bhikkhus will believe that his way casts out the four onrushings [cattaro upaddave harati], namely sorrow produced by distress of heart [hadaya santapabhutam sokam], lamentation characterised by confused talk [vaca vipallabhutam paridevam], suffering produced by disagreeable bodily feeling [kayikam asatabhutam dukkham], and grief produced by disagreeable thought [cetasikam asatabhutam domanassam] and that it brings the three extraordinary spiritual attainments of purity, knowledge, and Nibbana [visuddhim ñanam Nibbananti tayo visese avahati] and will be convinced that this instruction should be studied (imam dhammadesanam uggahetabbam], mastered [pariyapunnitabbam], borne in mind [dharetabbam], and memorized [vacetabbam], and that this way should be cultivated [imañca maggam bhavetabbam]." Cattaro Satipatthana = "The Four Arousings of Mindfulness." Four in relation to classes of objects of mindfulness. Why did the Buddha teach just Four Arousings of Mindfulness and neither more nor less? By way of what was suitable for those capable of being trained. In regard to the pair of the dull-witted and the keen-witted minds among tamable persons of the craving type and the theorizing type, pursuing the path of quietude [samatha] or that of insight [vipassana] in the practice of meditation, the following is stated: For the dull-witted man of craving type the Arousing of Mindfulness through the contemplation of the gross physical body is the Path to Purity; for the keen-witted of this type, the subtle subject of meditation on the feeling. And for the dull-witted man of the theorizing type the Path to Purity is the Arousing of Mindfulness through a subject not too full of distinctions, namely, consciousness [citta]; for the keen-witted of this type, the subject which teems with distinctions, namely the contemplation on things of the mind -- mental objects [dhammanupassana]. For the dull-witted man, pursuing quietude, the First Arousing of Mindfulness, body-contemplation, is the Path to Purity, by reason of the feasibility of getting at the mental reflex; for the keen-witted of this type, because he does not continue to stay in the coarse, the second Arousing of Mindfulness, the contemplation on feeling, is the Path to Purity. And for the dull-witted man pursuing the path of insight, the subject of meditation without many distinctions, the contemplation on consciousness, is the Path to Purity; and for the keen-witted of this type the contemplation on mental objects which is full of distinctions. 16442 From: robmoult Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 4:07pm Subject: Re: Should the Garden be left to Grow? Hi Tom, A quick clarification; according to Buddhism, plants do not have consciousness (citta) and therefore one cannot be reborn as a plant and plants are not reborn. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "proctermail" wrote: > Hi Christine and group, > It is also interesting what you say about sentient beings as we think > of plants as living and dying and returning to the earth to be reborn > in another format but I guess thats a whole different discussion > topic! > > tp > 16443 From: Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 4:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 16, Comm. Hi all, Are the 7 characteristics mentioned here: "just in the same way he expressed praise of this "only way", through the seven characteristics contained in the words "For the purification of beings", and so forth." the same as the 4 onrushings and the 3 extraordinary spiritual attainments mentioned here: "Having heard the utterance of praise, these bhikkhus will believe that his way casts out the four onrushings [cattaro upaddave harati], namely sorrow produced by distress of heart [hadaya santapabhutam sokam], lamentation characterised by confused talk [vaca vipallabhutam paridevam], suffering produced by disagreeable bodily feeling [kayikam asatabhutam dukkham], and grief produced by disagreeable thought [cetasikam asatabhutam domanassam] and that it brings the three extraordinary spiritual attainments of purity, knowledge, and Nibbana [visuddhim ñanam Nibbananti tayo visese avahati] and will be convinced that this instruction should be studied (imam dhammadesanam uggahetabbam], mastered [pariyapunnitabbam], borne in mind [dharetabbam], and memorized [vacetabbam], and that this way should be cultivated [imañca maggam bhavetabbam]." L: Also, I couldn't figure out which of the arousings are for samatha and which for vipassana. Body is for samatha, but is that because it is for a craving type or a dull witted type? Oh, I see. Craving is subdued (?) by samatha and theorizing (papanca ?) is purified (?) by vipassana. I don't think I have the right terms here. Could someone elaborate? What does samatha do for craving? What is meant by "theorizing" and how does vipassana affect it? Larry 16444 From: Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 4:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Should the Garden be left to Grow? Christine, Maybe you could read this and give us a summary: http://jbe.gold.ac.uk/4/schm1.html Larry 16445 From: Charles Thompson Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 5:18pm Subject: Re: Welcome Dhammasaro, (was:Re: [dsg] Perfections Ch 6, Energy, no 9) Sawasdee Khun Sarah, et al Please forgive my abrupt entry onto your forum. No doubt you observed my frustration. For some reason, I could not log on to Yahoo. So I went the DSG e-mail route. My most abject apologies. Now, to your queries: 1. >This is a pretty unusual intro to DSG;-) Welcome anyway and hope to hear a >little more about you and your interest in Buddhism. Ans: Thank you for your welcome. I reside about 45 minutes west of San Antonio, Texas, USA. (That explains the brashness? ) Retired about six years ago to help my sister with our ailing mother in San Antonio after residing on the east coast of USA since the sixties. Went to Thailand initially in 1989 on business. In time met Thai-Americans. Thru their day-to-day behaviour induced me to investigate Buddhism. None tried to convert me!!! So, now in this moment I appreciate the Teachings. And, consider this old bag of bones a Buddhist. Definitely not a Pali scholar. Just try to learn from your messages. 2. Where are you now Ans: I am visiting friends just outside Philadelphia, PA, USA. Will fly out of their airport on the current planned trip to Thailand. 3. >I'm not sure if this was meant to be addressed to Nina or anyone from DSG. >In any case, as a first step, I suggest you send a note off-list to Rob K, > who'll all be in Bkk when you arrive and will be happy to meet up with >you and take you to the foundation for any discussion with A.Sujin. Betty, >Sukin, Num and a few others from DSG are also in Bkk and will be happy to >help. Ans: It was addressed to you. But, appreciate you and Robert replying. I will send e-mail off-list. 4. >Nina, ourselves and one or two others from DSG will be in Bkk at the very >end of the month briefly. Pls send me a note off-list if you have any >problems or if I can help further with this. Ans: Thanks for being understanding. Hope to meet yawl (Texan for "you all" ). 5. >Out of interest, is the 'sar' in your name shortened from sara.na as in >'refuge in the dhamma'? Ans: I understood it to mean a student of the Dhamma. I suspect it is an American English corruption of the Thai of a Pali word. My upajjhaya (sp) gave it to me. Perhaps, you may be able to give the correct Pali spelling and meaning. metta, Chuck 16446 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 9:06pm Subject: Slugs, cockroaches and the first Precept, - there is a way :) Hi Tom, Sarah and All, I think an alternative strategy may be suggested in this article. :) Employ the slugs and provide them with comfortable living quarters. :) And Sarah, I think you once politely expressed grave doubts about my 'cockroach eating' gecko.... Truth will out eventually! :) I feel validated and justified. :) (I think this might be a bit long, but it's a one-off). metta, Christine http://www.n2.net/cschneid/Newsletters/2000/Oct_2000.html "It wasn't just the hideous pink-and-gray color scheme. Or even the loose tiles. The thing that Martyn Robinson hated most about his bathroom was the mold. Dark spots speckled the grout and a fuzzy, gray film clung to the shower curtain. No sooner had he scrubbed it off, back it came. "It was Mold City," says Robinson, a naturalist at the Australian Museum in Sydney. Hardly surprising, really. Robinson and his partner Lynne McNairn had chosen to live in an old, two- story, brick-and-fab house in Narraweena, a soggy suburb to the north of Sydney. The bedrock is so close to the surface that when it rains, water oozes out of the ground and turns the garden into a bog. Damp comes with the territory, and in a poorly ventilated bathroom, mold was inevitable. It was one long battle against the fuzzy fungus until, one day, Robinson decided to take on domestic help. He started with one, then three, and eventually a whole army of cleaners. They were small, cost only bed and board, and didn't use nasty chemicals around the house. They were slugs: a motley crew of striped ones, red ones and big, fat gray ones. As a naturalist, Robinson is keen to experiment with biological controls of all sorts. Since he settled in Narraweena, he has offered houseroom to a whole menagerie of creatures in return for their doing a few chores. His ultimate aim is to build up a trouble-free staff of animals that can be left alone to get on with the job. Already, he has turned up previously hidden talents among some of the local fauna. The slugs were his first employees. "Some slugs love mould. They thrive on it," says Robinson. "I noticed a few came into the house and headed for the bathroom. A friend of mine had seen slugs eating mold in his house so I thought I'd test it out." Worried that the molluscs would never make it across the vast expanse of carpet that lay between them and the bathroom, he gathered them up and carried them to their new home. "Lo and behold, it worked. They kept the mould down. They didn't get rid of it completely but we only needed to do a little work. They are particularly good at cleaning grout, silicone sealer and other hard-to-reach places," he says. Slugs have a strong homing instinct, foraging in the damp night air and spending the deadly desiccating daylight hours in a cool, moist retreat. Robinson provided his new staff with comfortable lodgings in the shape of a little ceramic pot perforated with stars and crescent moons--the sort more usually used to waft perfumed oils around the place. "They soon learnt that was home," he says. Each night, the slugs crawled out of the moons and stars and slithered off on their fungal foray. At daybreak, they crept home where they were safe from bare feet and torrents of hot water. In the breeding season, the slugs took a break from housework, heading down the drain and out of the vent pipe to seek a sweetie in the garden. After a brief romantic interlude, some came back, unable to resist Robinson's increasingly furry shower curtain. Those that failed to return were replaced with new recruits from the garden. Since he took on his first few slugs, Robinson has tried out several species, hoping to find the perfect home help. The leopard slug is a good mold-grazer, but tends to slip out of the bathroom at night to explore the house. "You might step on it during its nightly wanderings, so it wasn't ideal," says Robinson. The little striped slug--not so little at 3 to 5 centimeters long--was better. It has a healthy appetite for mold and goes about the job as energetically as a slug can. The red triangle slug, which can grow up to 10 centimeters, was a bit too picky. "It will eat mold but it won't go on the ground. It's good for shower curtains but won't clean the other parts of the bathroom." The best slug for the job turned out to be Limax flava, the much-maligned great gray slug familiar in European gardens and introduced to Australia. L. flava is a big, beefy slug, 9 centimeters at full stretch, so it eats a lot of mold. But it's also pretty sluggish, for want of a better word, and doesn't wander far at night, so there's little risk of finding one squashed into the carpet the next morning. It was time to downsize the staff. The celestial slug house has gone, and the slimmed-down workforce consists of three small stripy slugs. "They are small enough to fit in the groove of the sliding door without getting squashed," says Robinson. "Occasionally they get fed up and crawl down the drain, but generally they do a good job." Robinson has been well and truly bitten by the slug bug and hopes other people will give them a try. "It's an alternative for those who can't be bothered scrubbing or who don't like chemicals," he says. "They don't remove all the mold, but they do keep it down to an acceptable level." For those who don't exactly delight in the sight of fat gray slugs in the bath, he is working on a range of designer slugs in fetching bathroom colors. With Sydney's warm, damp climate--and especially on Robinson's boggy patch of land--there's plenty of work for a large household staff. Keeping down cockroaches, for instance. Roaches come in all sizes, from the thumb-sized Periplaneta species to the smaller but more persistent Blattella germanica. "They're a problem--for other people," says Robinson. His house is so well protected, he sees about one cockroach a month. The first line of defense is a colony of leaf- tailed geckos--prickly-looking lizards with flat, leaf-shaped tails. These particular geckos don't have sticky feet and can only cling by their claws to rough surfaces. They live outside on the brickwork, where they are active at night. "They form a sort of moat of geckos that insects have to get past before they can make it into the house," says Robinson. Any that do get in, risk an encounter with the "lounge lizards", secretive skinks that skulk by day behind the couch. The skinks emerge in the evening to hunt a whole range of unwelcome guests, including cockroaches, spiders and silverfish. "You hardly notice they are there. But they'll eat anything that's moving on the ground," says Robinson. Cockroaches might be unpleasant, but termites are a householder's worst nightmare. Given half a chance, they'll eat the house--unless something eats them first. In Narraweena, termites have a natural enemy in the little black ant. If the ants come across a band of termite workers, they'll follow them down into their galleries where they'll eat termites at every stage of development from egg to adult. Above ground, any termite king or queen setting out to found a new nest is fair game. If they land anywhere near the ants they're done for--and that's one fewer nest to worry about. Robinson and McNairn are happy to share their home with a few black ants in exchange for a termite-free house, although the ants themselves can become a nuisance. "They'll eat our food too-- from the sugar to breakfast cereals--and they get everywhere. You might find them living in the teapot, for instance. But we tolerate them. They patrol the places a human cleaner can't get to," says Robinson. Scuttling insects and stationary eggs are relatively easy to deal with, but in Australia it's hard to avoid flying insects, especially mosquitoes. And mosquitoes are really scary these days, in case you haven't noticed. Most people keep them out with wire screens. Robinson's insect screens are woven from silk and tailor- made by orb spiders. Webs on either side of the ramp leading to the first-floor entrance create an insect-screened corridor to the house. Golden orb spiders are best for this job. They build fairly permanent webs, and although they don't always build them in the right place or at the right angle, the webs can be moved into position by carefully detaching the supporting strands and fastening them to a more suitable twig or stem. Garden orb spiders do their bit too, but they have a serious drawback--they build a new web each night, eating the old one the following morning. "This means we sometimes walk straight into a web at night that wasn't there during the day," says Robinson. There are plenty of pests left to keep a whole range of wildlife fed, from dragonflies to bats, to fish and frogs which live in the garden's pools and ponds, even insect-eating sundews and pitcher plants, which thrive on the boggy ground. And about this time of year, the anti-mosquito task force is swelled by the arrival of several species of Toxorhynchites--unusually large mosquitoes with glittering iridescent bodies and wings. There are dozens of species of Toxorhynchites around the world and they share one endearing habit: as larvae they have a voracious appetite for the young of other mosquitoes. The adult insects suck plant sap and nectar, not blood, and they lay their eggs in small pools, containers filled with rainwater, tree holes and even waterlogged footprints in the lawn. The offspring of other mosquitoes don't have much of a chance. A single Toxorhynchites larva can eat its way through 400 smaller mosquito larvae before it reaches adulthood. "Although we've still got plenty of mosquitoes, there are fewer than there might have been," says Robinson. Apart from their battery of biological controls, Robinson and McNairn restrict their fight against pests to mechanical methods--squashing snails, for instance--or at most, sloshing ecologically friendly soapy water over bad infestations of scale insects. The result is a garden filled with native species, from mud-burrowing spiny crayfish to seven species of insect-eating lizard. Native honeybees, rescued from a fallen tree, nest in two hives that Robinson has provided, each potentially giving him a liter of lemony-tasting honey a year. Native wasps have moved into other artificial nest sites--and keep down harmful caterpillars. "We provide what the animals want, and they come," says Robinson. "And the more diversity there is, the less likely we are to have pests. Pests may get used to chemicals, but they never get used to being eaten." And there's a bonus. There's always a ready supply of new additions to the household staff. "We'll probably never have a scrupulously clean and tidy house but we have one that's comfortable, entertaining and doesn't give us too much work." For anyone thinking of following Robinson's example, it's probably best to check that it's OK with any other humans living in the house. Fortunately, McNairn shares Robinson's enthusiasm. "I like having the critters around," she says. "They make our life interesting, and generally you don't even know they are there. They just quietly get on with their jobs and every now and then you see one of the geckos or slugs and think, that's nice, they're still here." Unless they are spiders, that is. "There was a bit of a problem when a large banded huntsman spider I'd introduced to the garden took up residence in a drawer," admits Robinson. "When Lynne went to take out her favorite gray jumper, part of it moved under her hand," he recalls. Her piercing scream persuaded him to put the spider at the farthest part of the garden. "It never returned," he says, "probably because its sound receptors are still ringing.. .." 16447 From: rahula_80 Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 10:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] mara sutta, Rahula Hi Nina, Thanks for your wonderful reply. Thanks again, Rahula 16448 From: rahula_80 Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 11:00pm Subject: Re: vimuttatta, to Rahula Hi, Yes, the PTS dictionary gave, "having an emancipated self". But Lance Cousins said PTS is in error on this point. In buddha-L, he wrote: Vimuttattaa .thita.m. .Thitattaa santusita.m. Santusitattaa na paritassati. So the first sentence corresponds to Sanskrit: vimuktatvaat sthitam and so on. There is no atta/aatman here at all; it is the ablative singular of the suffix tta = tva. Bhikkhu Bodhi is indeed vindicated. I have explain in an earlier post why I don't understand this. I am just starting to learn Pali. Maybe that's is why I don't understand. So please show me step by step. From that post: According to Pali Primer by Lily de Silva, Lesson 9 The suffix -tvaa is added to the root of the verb or verbal base with or sometimes without the connecting vowel -i- to form the gerung, absolutive or the indeclinable particle. So, shouldn't it be rendered, vimucitvaa, never vimuttattaa. (muc + i + tvaa)? Also, vimutta + tta = vimuttatta, NOT vimuttattaa. Right? If not, can you explain how vimuttattaa is derived? I just couldn't figure out how to get "vimuttattaa" from "vimutta". ===== So, I was wondering how one get vimuttattaa gramatically from vimutta. Thanks, Rahula 16449 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 11:10pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Should the Garden be left to Grow?/Larry Larry: Thanks for the link, but I think I'll pass on summarising the article. The conclusion is quite helpful in giving an overview of the authors arguements and findings. My understanding of non-harming of living beings arises out of putting myself in their place, of knowing they want happiness just as I do, and they fear pain just as I do. The main thrust of my desiring understanding of the Buddha's teaching on this, is to know the sure base of spiritually appropriate behaviour in daily life Though I am a strong supporter of the environmental movement, particularly of the protection and preservation of huge tracts of diverse flora and fauna in the National Parks system in Australia, my current interest in the "Should the Garden be left to Grow?" thread is from the perspective of trying to understand how the Theravada Tradition values all Sentient beings, and how kamma, and rebirth are interwoven in this teaching. Though Ecological Ethics would no doubt be a robust,and interesting discussion ... :) metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > Christine, > > Maybe you could read this and give us a summary: > http://jbe.gold.ac.uk/4/schm1.html > > Larry 16450 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 11:49pm Subject: Re: Should the Garden be left to Grow?/RobK Dear RobK, Thanks for the info. but as I don't have access to a copy of Kuddakatapatha by Buddhaghosa, and unless there is a link, I am unable to read further. My understanding is that the Blessed One taught that Kamma is wholesome or unwholesome volitions (intention), I don't understand why the degree of physical effort has a bearing ... I would certainly have to expend large amounts of effort to kill any goanna or a carpet snake whether with a garden spade or a machete. (Of course, I wouldn't do such a thing, even to certain egg and chicken stealing individuals I have known). It would take a huge mental and physical effort (as they're scary and quite strong, snakes can bite, and goannas, in addition, have claws and are agile). I once had a goanna,chased by a dog, run straight up my legs and body as if I were a tree. Lots of deep scratches, screams, agitated body motions and shouts directed at the dog by everyone present.:)) But, gently touching a button to send nuclear missiles to wipe out a city of 600,000 human beings and statistically uncounted 'others' would not require much physical effort at all. It may not take much mental effort either, particularly if they were regarded as a target, a part of an evil terrorist conspiracy and therefore much less virtuous than someone of my own political, religious and ethnic group... I wonder what time period Buddhaghosa come from? Is one expected to accept the writings of Buddhaghosa in the same way that the Suttas, Vinaya, and Abhidhamma are accepted by devout Theravadin Buddhists? metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > Hi Rob, Tom and all, > > > > Rob - I am finding your post hard to understand given that I am > > learning about death and rebirth being only consecutive moments, > how > > and where does the change in the > > 'worthiness' of the everchanging stream of cittas occur from being > > (say) a Bhikkhu [whose murder would carry heavy kamma] to the next > > moment being reborn as a caterpillar, lizard or > > spider whose deliberate or indifferent death you consider not worth > > focusing on compared with 'helping an old lady across the street'? > > I wonder if you could you please give me the sutta references for > > "> The second consideration is the being that is killed. Killing a > > > virtuous human is more serious than killing a non-virtuous human. > > > Killing a human is more serious than killing an animal. Killing a > > > large animal is more serious than killing a small animal."> > > > > I'm assuming it would be a sutta spoken by the Buddha (and that > > there would be many such suttas) for such an vital moral and > ethical > > point as to 'who it is not so serious' to harm or kill ... > >___------ > Dear Christine, > There are a few places in the texts - mostly the commentaries- where > it mentions this:In the kuddakatapatha by Buddhaghosa (translated as > Minor > readings PTS by nanamoli). > there is a comprehensive section on the precepts. > on p24 -25 it notes that the blamableness of an action varies > according to its degree. hence killing a large animal is worse > than killing an insect because of the degree of effort involved > and other factors. it has many details. > Robert 16451 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 11:57pm Subject: Re: Should the Garden be left to Grow?/RobM Hi Rob, Sorry for the confusion. What I was trying to say, and I'm not sure if this will be any clearer, is that my intellectual understanding of what this "I" is, is: [from Nyanatiloka] a continually self- consuming process of arising and passing bodily and mental phenomena.' Taking that as the definition of a sentient being - then death is the temporary end of a temporary phenomena. The organic life ceases but the continually arising processes, well ... continue arising and changing ... rather relentlessly. It is not quite the same process of mental phenomena that was the Bhikkhu, but it is not completely different now that it is a dog or a caterpillar. My example using a Bhikkhu being killed, and then the processes taking another form of a caterpillar or dog, was just to say it was the outer form that your quote seemed to invest with worth, the ever decaying rupa. I was asking in a garbled way why there were different values given to a living process of cittas and cetasikas, dependent on size, outer form and perceived virtue ... it doesn't seem logical to have an Order of Precedence. Either All Beings are important or none are. Given the doctrine of Anatta - "none" would seem a more consistent answer - but my heart votes for "All". I am happy to put it in the 'too hard basket' for a while if the Buddha said it - but if it isn't mentioned until many hundreds of years after his parinibbana, then I wonder why? Happy to be corrected. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Christine, > > I took my information from the Atthasalini. I am on the road, so it > will take a couple of days to give you the specific reference. > > However, in line with the theme of that message, let me stress that > it is the unerlying volition that has the greatest impact on the > kammic weight of an action. > > Christine, I don't understand your question regarding the 'change in > worthiness'; can you ask again a different way? > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 16452 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Oct 25, 2002 0:08am Subject: Re: Should the Garden be left to Grow?/Tom Hi Tom, How lovely to hear of your rescue of the slugs. Please keep it up, you are doing a very good thing. I do leave water outside in the day time mainly for the dog - but I notice ants can drown in steep sided bowls, or in the tidal wave caused by a lapping dog. And cane toads like to sit in the bowl, and as they have poison glands, have been known to unintentionally kill fowls and dogs by poisoning the water. According to Theravada Buddhism, animals are sentient beings which are subject to the same kammic laws as humans. Hence a being may be born into the animal plane, which is considered to be below the human as a result of unwholesome kamma. Plants are said not have the type of consciousness (vinnana) inherent in a sentient being, therefore rebirth as a plant or tree is not possible. [Though I did in passing see a reference to plants having one-facultied consciousness but am not sure what that is exactly ...] It is sad about the frog, but you didn't know it was there, you didn't choose to harm it, and so there was no 'intention'. Personally, I think treating animals and insects with loving- kindness and compassion is the only choice for those who accept rebirth as the Buddha taught it. In the Saccasamyutta The Five Destinations Repetition Series 103 (2) Passing Away as Humans "Then the Blessed One took up a little bit of soil in his fingernail and addressed the bhikkhus thus: 'What do you think, bhikkhus, which is more: the little bit of soil in my fingernail or the great earth?' 'Venerable sir, the great earth is more. The little bit of soil that the Blessed One has taken up in his fingernail is trifling. Compared to the great earth, the little bit of soil that the Blessed has taken up in his fingernail is not calculable, does not bear comparison, does not amount even to a fraction.' 'So too, bhikkhus, those beings are few who, when they pass away as human beings, are reborn among human beings. But those beings are more numerous who, when they pass away as human beings, are reborn in the animal realm" ... metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "proctermail" wrote: > Hi Christine and group, > > Thanks for your comments - you have elaborated the question well and > given me more to think about. Your problem of ants is similar to > another I have - slugs. It is very wet here and even my carpet gets > wet when it rains so slugs are encouraged to come inside. I agree > that prevention in is probably an acceptable way forward - I removed > as many slugs as I could find and then placed salt in the likely > places where they got in - hopefully I have discouraged them not > killed them and have had less of a problem since. There is prob some > negative kamma invilved but it could be worse - perhaps leave a bowl > of water outside for the ants (though this may encourage!). > > I guess I realise that the garden has to be cut back but i once > killed a frog inadvertantly whilst strimming. > > It is also interesting what you say about sentient beings as we think > of plants as living and dying and returning to the earth to be reborn > in another format but I guess thats a whole different discussion > topic! > > tp > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > Dear group, > > > > Tom's comments raised the old issues of 'sentient' beings, 'kamma' > > and 'rebirth' for me once again. > > > > It is good to 'hear' from you, Tom. Welcome to dsg. I ask similar > > questions occasionally. [Do you hear snakes making gulping sounds > > like your Aunt Sarah? - I was just wondering if it is a genetically > > inherited talent to attract those rare reptiles? ;-) ] > > Excerpt from post 12552 "Chris: - Keeping on your good side after > the > > mention of B.Bodhi, I > > won't mention any scepticism about snakes making a 'gulping' sound. > > If you say it did Sarah, then it did! > > This brings up a Dhamma focus question (seriously) - Is there a > > Buddhist scripture relating to "not saving" - this is pertinent for > > me, having rescued a small lizard caught up in a spider web. I'm > not > > sure if the lizard was grateful, But the spider was furious...no > > dinner, and having to repair his home... So - was it a good > > thing...saving another being? or was it a bad thing....depriving a > > being of sustenance, and damaging his living area? Should we let > > whatever is happening to another being (human or otherwise) happen? > > If we intervene, are we just delaying the fruits of their > > kamma?....Or were we meant to save them?" > > > > I, too, ask about the dilemma of 'other beings' from time to time. > > What to do about spiders, cane toads, frogs, cockroaches, ants, > > wasps, snakes, lizards, mice, rats and possums that seek to share > my > > outside and inside living space. It is often difficult to discuss - > > > most buddhists don't really take it seriously. Rebirth (if even > > accepted as a possibility) is not thought of as anything other than > > another human birth by many buddhists. So the value of the lives > of > > insects, reptiles and other creatures seems to be given lip service > > only. Only one choice is usually considered when human comfort is > > involved (and it is mostly comfort, not health) - extermination. > > Currently, Queensland is undergoing the worst drought in over a > > hundred years. (There is to be a huge ecumenical Service led by > the > > Archbishop and the State's Premier today in the Cathedral to pray > for > > rain. Inevitably the prayers will be answered - I hope they put in > a > > clause about 'timeliness of response'.) But, on a micro level, the > > ant population (always the ones with the most initiative, next to > > humans and rats) are invading my kitchen sink - they can't walk > 200 > > metres to the rapidly drying dam for a drink, I expect. And, > besides > > which, it is shoulder to shoulder with insect eating cattle egrets > > and ibis out there. The ants are also sending scouts out to locate > > the sugar bowl, crumbs and any other food sources. Nothing much > > outside - the grass is brown and crunchy underfoot. The local > cattle > > are being grazed on the roadsides, 'the long paddock'. > > For anyone who remembers, Rachel the rat has disappeared. > > I believe prevention is the best choice and if I was starting off > in > > a brand new house it would be easier. This week, because of the > dire > > weather conditions (37 C and not half way through Spring yet) and > > raging bush fires (one human death so far, 'Others' not collected > > statistically), I have a tree lopping service coming to cut back > many > > of the trees the 'Others' use as ladders onto/into the roof space. > > The mother possum is welcome to the sheds - but I would really > prefer > > the rats' relatives to relocate entirely. > > I understand that scrupulous cleanliness is a given, but when > > conditions for survival are harsh to extreme outside, this doesn't > > prevent a clash of species' 'needs and wants' occurring. > > Should we just put out the 'rat bait' and 'surface spray' and call > > it 'their results of previous kamma' and 'commonsense' - maybe > take > > up a mantra like 'there is no self - no-one who kills, no-one who > > dies' ... but if rebirth is truth, and I wipe out a nest of 30,000 > > ant beings deliberately, would saying 'I tried everything, but they > > just kept coming to the sink, so I had no choice ...' really wipe > > out the affects of my kamma? And will we ever get out of samsara > if > > the deliberate killing of an insect is equivalent to killing beings > > more like 'us'? - an imponderable, I know. > > > > Tom, with regards to the garden, I think cutting back shrubs and > > trees from a Buddhist perspective is O.K. - isn't the precept about > > not killing applicable only to sentient beings (those who are > > beathing, and can feel fear)? Though knowingly entirely removing > the > > things which a sentient being needs to sustain life would be > another > > issue, as would garden insecticides and herbicides, so I believe. > > For more, look under "Animals" in Useful Posts and then follow the > > links and replies - > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts > > Welcome again, and hope to 'hear' you regularly, > > metta, > > Christine > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "proctermail" > wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > Firstly a little introduction - i am Sarah's nephew tom. this is > my > > > first real excursion into this site and my buddhist knowledge > thin > > so > > > please forgive any ignorance. > > > > > > My first question is essentially one of practicality : > > > > > > I have found that on occasion, and infact the more it is thought > > > about the more occasions in which instances of it can be found, > > that > > > the action that is taken is often in conflict with mindfulness - > > for > > > example, when you clean you often find spiders and spiders webs > in > > > your house - to remove these hence possibly killing the spiders > and > > > destroying their homes in the process is asserting a selfish > notion > > > ie clean over a non selfish one of preserve life and allow things > > to > > > be. It could I guess be argued that if they died in right > > mindfulness > > > (a prayer for example) then nothing would be disrupted but... > > > > > > I origianally thought of this ages ago and emailed Sarah about > it, > > > but it has developed - hence the time taken to post. The same > would > > > apply to gardening - should i let it grow? 16453 From: Sarah Date: Fri Oct 25, 2002 0:41am Subject: Re: Welcome Dhammasaro, (was:Re: [dsg] Perfections Ch 6, Energy, no 9) Sawasdee Khun Chuck;-), --- Charles Thompson wrote: > Sawasdee Khun Sarah, et al > > Please forgive my abrupt entry onto your forum. No doubt you observed > my > frustration. For some reason, I could not log on to Yahoo. So I went > the > DSG e-mail route. My most abject apologies. .... No problem, we're used to all kinds of entry here;-) I think I'll keep Erik's super post on patience with all its helpful links handy for when Yahoo next gives me a BIG TEST (fingers crossed, we haven't had a list close-down for a very long time and at least I haven't lost an account like Rob K...) ..... > Ans: Thank you for your welcome. I reside about 45 minutes west of San > > Antonio, Texas, USA. > (That explains the brashness? ) ..... I think no comment is safest . We may all be a little biased by one well-known representative these days. On the otherhand, we have a very dear friend whom Nina and ourselves have known a very long time and she has recently retired back to Texas too. She's a sometimes-lurker on DSG. ..... >Retired about six years ago to > help > my sister with our ailing mother in San Antonio after residing on the > east > coast of USA since the sixties. .... I'm sure they both appreciate the move. ..... > Went to Thailand initially in 1989 on business. In time met > Thai-Americans. > Thru their day-to-day behaviour induced me to investigate Buddhism. > None > tried to convert me!!! So, now in this moment I appreciate the > Teachings. > And, consider this old bag of bones a Buddhist. > > Definitely not a Pali scholar. Just try to learn from your messages. .... Likewise... ..... > Ans: I am visiting friends just outside Philadelphia, PA, USA. Will > fly > out of their airport on the current planned trip to Thailand. .... > Ans: It was addressed to you. But, appreciate you and Robert replying. > I > will send e-mail off-list. ... Good, Rob will be able to fill you in on all the schedules and I'm sure you'll find any discussions interesting. I hope you'll be able to join us at the end of the month, perhaps too. .... > Ans: Thanks for being understanding. Hope to meet yawl (Texan for "you > > all" ). .... That will be a pleasure (Queen's English for "it may turn out that we're from different planets, but at all costs, let's keep this polite";-)) Actually, Pinna, our other Texan friend will be in Bkk at the beg. of Dec, so depending on how long you have..... ..... > Ans: I understood it to mean a student of the Dhamma. I suspect it is > an > American English corruption of the Thai of a Pali word. My upajjhaya > (sp) > gave it to me. Perhaps, you may be able to give the correct Pali > spelling > and meaning. ..... That would have to be for the Thai and Pali experts here- not me. Thanks for all the good-hearted info and replies, Chuck. How long have you been following/looking in on DSG? Which areas are of most interest. If you're busy packing or cutting back the garden, it can wait til Bkk;-) Thanks again, Sarah ======= 16454 From: Sarah Date: Fri Oct 25, 2002 1:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Tibetan Book of the Dead in Rupa Class Hi Rob M, I meant to get back on this before: --- robmoult wrote: > Hi All, > > In this week's class, a student commented, "In the Tibetan Book of > the Dead, it says that when a person dies, the first element to fail > is the earth element and, because of that, they are unable to hold > up a cup with their hand. Yet according to what you have said, it is > the wind element that supports a hand in holding up a cup." .... From the following two quotes, I read the elements as being very inter-dependent and the predominant ones to be different for different movements such as falling and supporting. So both your comments may be correct: ***** From Satipatthana commentary and sub-commentary. See also Sammohavinodani and other commentaries for other examples: 1. “ In raising up the foot A [paduddharane] two processes [dhatuyo]: extension [pathavi] and cohesion [apo], are low, weak [omatta honti dubbala], and the other two processes: caloricity [tejo] and oscillation [vayo] are high, powerful [adhimatta honti balavatiyo]; so, too, in stretching out the foot B [atiharane] and in shifting away the foot C [vitiharane]. But in dropping down the raised foot D [vossajjane], and likewise in keeping the foot on the ground E [sannikkhepane] and in pressing the foot against the ground F [sannirumbhane] the first two processes are high and powerful and the second, low and weak. There, the material and mental phenomena in A do not occur in B; those in B do not occur in C; those in C do not occur in D; those in D do not occur in E; those in E do not occur in F. These phenomena after coming into existence in the form of several sections, links, and parts, break quickly just in those places, crackling like sesamum seeds thrown into a heated pan. In this matter, who is the one that goes forward, or whose going forward is there? In the highest sense (paramatthato) what takes place is the going, the standing, the sitting down and the lying down of the processes. With material form in the several divisions (groups or parts), One conscious state arises And quite another ceases, In sequence, like a river's flow, These states (of mind and matter) go. (aññam uppajjate cittam aññam cittam nirujjhati avicimanusambandho nadi soto va vattati]. ..... 2. “Or stretching out is the carrying of a foot (near) to the place where the other foot is set and shifting away is the carrying of a foot further to a point beyond the place on which the other foot is. Since the process of cohesion with (its cognate process) extension coming (as a servant or follower) behind it [pathavi dhatuya anugata apodhatu] is the condition for dropping down [vossajjane paccayo], cohesion and extension are in preponderance by reason of capability in the action of dropping down. The nature of cohesion is most gravid and so in the laying down of an upraised foot extension is subordinate to cohesion. Because of their incapacity to drop down what is upraised the processes of caloricity and oscillation are called low in this connection. Since the process of extension with (its cognate process) cohesion coming (as a servant or follower) behind it [apodhatuya anugata pathavidhatu] is the condition for the keeping (of a foot) on the ground, extension and cohesion are in preponderance by reason of capability, in the keeping (of a foot) on the ground. In keeping the foot on the ground too, as in the state of something fixed, cohesion is subordinate to extension owing to the excessive functioning of the latter process. Cohesion is subordinate to extension also by way of the contactual action of the process of extension in pressing the foot against the ground.” ***** Sarah p.s I liked the points you made to Tom very much. ===== 16455 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Oct 25, 2002 4:44am Subject: Re: Should the Garden be left to Grow?/RobK --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear RobK, > My understanding is that the Blessed One > taught that Kamma is wholesome or unwholesome volitions (intention), > I don't understand why the degree of physical effort has a > bearing ... > I would certainly have to expend large amounts of effort to kill any > goanna or a carpet snake whether with a garden spade or a machete. > (> dog by everyone present.:)) > But, gently touching a button to send nuclear missiles to wipe out a > city of 600,000 human beings and statistically uncounted 'others' > would not require much physical effort at all. It may not take much > mental effort either, particularly if they were > regarded as a target, a part of an evil terrorist conspiracy and > therefore much less virtuous than someone of my own political, > religious and ethnic group... ___________ Dear Christine, I think your comparison of the gentle touch of the nuclear button doesn't take into account a few factors. To build a nuclear missile takes a period of time during which there are akusala cittas arising . It is not only the person who pushes the button who makes akusala kamma but also those who order it. And the number of beings is said to be a factor by Buddhaghosa not only the amount of effort expended ( I didn't make that clear). You wrote to RobM that . "Either All Beings are important or none are. " In the suttas the Buddha says that ones parents are equivalent to Brahma gods and that killing a parent will ensure tthat one is born in hell next life. The same goes for wounding a buddha or killing an arahant. Whereas kiling other humans may or may not cause one to be reborn in hell. Why? Because there are many factors that determine the seriousness of an action . It all sounds reasonable to me - I don't think that killing a mosquito is as bad as killing a human for instance . > I wonder what time period Buddhaghosa come from? Is one expected > to accept the writings of Buddhaghosa in the same way that the > Suttas, Vinaya, and Abhidhamma are accepted by devout Theravadin > Buddhists? _______ Buddhaghosa was born about a thousand years after the Buddha. . Whether one belives in the Tipitaka or the commentaries is conditioned by various factors; nothing is really expected. Some Buddhists have valued the commenatries and so they have been preserved since the time of the buddha and are recited at the Buddhist councils. In the future it will come to occur that less people will value them and so they will disapear. It is all predicted. Robert > 16456 From: Date: Fri Oct 25, 2002 2:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Should the Garden be left to Grow?/RobK Hi, Robert - In a message dated 10/25/02 7:46:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > Buddhaghosa was born about a thousand years after the Buddha. . > Whether one belives in the Tipitaka or the commentaries is > conditioned by various factors; nothing is really expected. Some > Buddhists have valued the commenatries and so they have been > preserved since the time of the buddha and are recited at the Buddhist > councils. In the future it will come to occur that less people will value > them and so they will disapear. It is all predicted. > ======================= Exactly *what* is all predicted? That the Buddhasasana will die out, or that the commentaries will come to be ignored? Did the Buddha discuss the commentaries in the Tipitaka? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16457 From: proctermail Date: Fri Oct 25, 2002 9:35am Subject: Re: Should the Garden be left to Grow? Hi Christine, Rob, All I too find the position hard to understand - I have read ( but couldn't qoute) that it is precisely through small actions that the bigger picture is realised. Helping the old lady cross the sreet may seem like the bigger picture but in fact could be argued to be less helpful in the life scheme since it presents no moral dilemma thus there is less learning to be gained from the action. There is an english saying - a penny saved is a penny earnt - the more negative action/thinking that can be removed the greater the cumulative effect. the quote below ' In safety and bliss..' followed by that of the cleaning of cobwebs in the monastry points to cleaning without harming the spiders. However it does also seem to question the notion that humans are 'above' other animals and that the intention of killing a snake, dog or an elephant, for example, is not dissimilar to that of killing a human whereas the social elements of our relationships with other humans makes this more horrific. I also have another question - how and where does good kamma in previous lives come from - ie is it possible that an ant can have a good kammic existence? Thanks tp --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hi Rob, Tom and all, > > Rob - I am finding your post hard to understand given that I am > learning about death and rebirth being only consecutive moments, how > and where does the change in the > 'worthiness' of the everchanging stream of cittas occur from being > (say) a Bhikkhu [whose murder would carry heavy kamma] to the next > moment being reborn as a caterpillar, lizard or > spider whose deliberate or indifferent death you consider not worth > focusing on compared with 'helping an old lady across the street'? > I wonder if you could you please give me the sutta references for > "> The second consideration is the being that is killed. Killing a > > virtuous human is more serious than killing a non-virtuous human. > > Killing a human is more serious than killing an animal. Killing a > > large animal is more serious than killing a small animal."> > > I'm assuming it would be a sutta spoken by the Buddha (and that > there would be many such suttas) for such an vital moral and ethical > point as to 'who it is not so serious' to harm or kill ... > I only know things like Dhammapada 131 "Whoever, seeking his own > happiness, > harms with the rod pleasure-loving beings gets no happiness > hereafter." which the Buddha spoke to children tormenting a snake, > and the Metta Sutta > "In safety and in bliss > May creatures all be of a blissful heart. > Whatever breathing beings there may be. > No matter whether they are frail or firm, > With none excepted, be they long or big > Or middle-sized, or be they short or small > Or thick, as well as those seen or unseen, > Or whether they are dwelling far or near, > Existing or yet seeking to exist. > May creatures all be of a blissful heart. > Let no one work another one's undoing > Or even slight him at all anywhere: > And never let them wish each other ill > Through provocation or resentful thought." > And just as might a mother with her life > Protect the son that was her only child, > So let him then for every living thing > Maintain unbounded consciousness in being;" > > If these distinctions you quote between the greater and lesser > seriousness of kammic consequences of actions depending on the > virtue, size or species of the living being concerned - would > there be distinctions in the within a species? Say > hurting/killing a bright intelligent > high school graduate compared to a two year old born mentally > disabled? hurting/killing a male compared to a female? > hurting/killing a unborn fetus compared to a neonate? > > I have been reading "Attitude to and treatment of the natural world" > in 'An > Introduction to Buddhist Ethics' by Peter Harvey. "One's present > fortunate position as a human is only a temporary state of affairs, > dependent on past good karma. One cannot isolate oneself from the > plight of animals, as one has oneself experienced it, just as > animals have had past rebirths as humans. Moreover, in the ancient > round of rebirths, every being one comes > across, down to an insect, will at some time have been a close > relative or friend, and have been very good to one. Bearing this in > mind, one shouldreturn the kindness in the present." > > metta, > Christine > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi Tom, > > > > An imaginary conversation: > > > > Friend: Rob! You have shaved your head! Have you decided to become > a > > monk? > > > > Rob: No, I have taken up competitive swimming. I read in a magazine > > that shaving my head will reduce resistance cutting 0.04 sec from > my > > lap time. > > > > Friend: Rob, you are 10kg overweight and spend less than one hour a > > week in the pool. Why don't you focus on the more important issues > > before thinking about cutting 0.04 sec from your lap time? > > > > > > > > Killing insects creates bad kamma. However, let us consider the > > weightiness of the kamma created. The most important consideration > > in kammic weightiness is the quality of the underlying volition > > (intention). Are you malciously, sadistically and cruelly, seeking > > out to kill these insects? If so, that is worse kamma than failing > > to stop the lawnmower in time before you run over a poor worm. > > > > The second consideration is the being that is killed. Killing a > > virtuous human is more serious than killing a non-virtuous human. > > Killing a human is more serious than killing an animal. Killing a > > large animal is more serious than killing a small animal. > > > > The bottom line is that if you are like me, before breakfast each > > day you end up doing ten bad things more weighty than killing an > > insect. > > > > By all means, avoid killing insects if you can. However, don't lose > > sight of the big picture; the mind is the forerunner of all things; > > work on your mental states to avoid greed/attachment (lobha), > > hatred/aversion (dosa) and delusion (moha). > > > > Another thing to think about is the incredible power of good kammic > > actions. Remember the ending of the movie, "Monsters, Inc.", when > > they discovered that laughter has ten times the energy of screams? > A > > bit of dana (generosity), sila (discipline) or bhavana (meditation) > > creates lots and lots of good kamma. So rather than focusing on > > issues such as the killing of insects, perhaps you could focus > > on "helping an old lady to cross the street". > > > > With Metta, > > Rob M :-) 16458 From: proctermail Date: Fri Oct 25, 2002 9:39am Subject: Re: Should the Garden be left to Grow? Hi Rob, Is not the effort required not to kill a smaller animal greater than that to kill a bigger? tp --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > Hi Rob, Tom and all, > > > > Rob - I am finding your post hard to understand given that I am > > learning about death and rebirth being only consecutive moments, > how > > and where does the change in the > > 'worthiness' of the everchanging stream of cittas occur from being > > (say) a Bhikkhu [whose murder would carry heavy kamma] to the next > > moment being reborn as a caterpillar, lizard or > > spider whose deliberate or indifferent death you consider not worth > > focusing on compared with 'helping an old lady across the street'? > > I wonder if you could you please give me the sutta references for > > "> The second consideration is the being that is killed. Killing a > > > virtuous human is more serious than killing a non-virtuous human. > > > Killing a human is more serious than killing an animal. Killing a > > > large animal is more serious than killing a small animal."> > > > > I'm assuming it would be a sutta spoken by the Buddha (and that > > there would be many such suttas) for such an vital moral and > ethical > > point as to 'who it is not so serious' to harm or kill ... > >___------ > Dear Christine, > There are a few places in the texts - mostly the commentaries- where > it mentions this:In the kuddakatapatha by Buddhaghosa (translated as > Minor > readings PTS by nanamoli). > there is a comprehensive section on the precepts. > on p24 -25 it notes that the blamableness of an action varies > according to its degree. hence killing a large animal is worse > than killing an insect because of the degree of effort involved > and other factors. it has many details. > Robert 16459 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 25, 2002 10:00am Subject: Perfections Ch 6, Energy, no 10 Perfections Ch 6, Energy, no 10 We read in the Commentary: Another method of exposition:- This viriyårambha is ³striving² in expelling lust, ³onward effort² in cutting the bonds, ³exertion² in escaping from the floods 10, ³endeavour² in reaching the further shore, ³zeal² in being a forerunner, ³ardour² in exceeding the limit, ³vigour² in lifting the bolt (of ignorance), and fortitude² in producing steadfastness.²Verily, let the skin, veins and bones dry up² (11 - thus by virtue of unfaltering effort at such time is the ³state of a man of unfaltering effort². The Commentary explains further that energy does not let go of the desire-to-do, chanda (which is necessary to accomplish something), that it does not give up the task, and does not give in to discouragement with regard to the performing of kusala. It uses a simile of an ox which carries a burden and does not let go of it: Just as if they were to say, ³Get a beast of burden, an ox, to draw a burden from a marshy place not beyond the bullock¹s strength,² and the bullock, pressing the ground with its knees, were to carry the burden and would not allow it to drop on the ground, so energy lifts up and seizes the burden in the matter of doing moral acts. Hence it is said to be ³support of burden². As we read in the Commentary, the teachers of old adviced the monks to examine themselves three times daily. If one cannot do this, then one should do this twice or even only once a day, but it is wrong not to examine oneself at all. When we reflect on the ³Anumana Sutta² and its Commentary, we see that people had different degrees of paññå. Someone who has many defilements is a person who is ³difficult to speak to²; he does not see his own defilements, he only sees those of someone else. We should find out which defilements we have ourselves. If someone never reflected on this or spoke about this with someone else, he should first of all listen to the Dhamma and reflect on what he heard so that he sees the danger of akusala. Then right effort can arise and be a condition for him to examine himself and consider his own akusala before going to sleep. This can be applied by a person who is ³difficult to speak to² and who has many defilements. If someone has already some understanding of the practice of satipatthåna, he can be aware of the reality which appears. Whatever kind of akusala arises, sati can be aware immediately of that characteristic. Then there is another level of paññå, it is paññå which understands the way to know and study the characteristics of realities. After we have studied the Anumana Sutta, how often in a day do we examine ourselves? For someone who habitually develops satipatthåna, sati sampajañña can immediately be aware when akusala citta arises, and he does not need to wait until it is time to examine himself. This is the beginning of the development of satipatthåna, even if one does not know yet realities as nåma and rúpa which are non-self. It is already a degree of sati sampajañña when the characteristic of akusala dhamma is known as it naturally appears. Footnotes: 10. This is the group of defilements of the four floods (oghas): the floods of sensuous desire, of desire for rebirth, of wrong view and of ignorance. 11. The Buddha spoke these words when sitting under the Bodhi-tree before attaining Buddhahood. He would not move even if his skin, veins and bones would dry up. 16460 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 25, 2002 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] ekayana, summary Dear Sarah and Jim, I think Sarah gave an excellent summary of the discussions on One Way, with notes from Co and subco. I really enjoyed reading this very much, and so useful to see it again together. We still have a few things to solve. Jim collected six possibilities, erasing no. 6, but saying that of the others there are still things not clear. Please, Jim, what is not clear yet? Which matters we still have to investigate? I think we should further study and discuss such points. It is important. With appreciation, Nina. op 24-10-2002 14:25 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > For Ekayana’ the dict. gives 2 meanings of a) “going’, road and b) going to > goal and mentions ekayana maggo in this context. > > Jim wrote: “A literal translation of the phrasing is: "one way, monks, is > this > path" but because of the compound state of 'ekaayano' there are a number > of > ways 'eka' can be syntactically related to 'ayano' that allows for some > different and equally valid interpretations as given in Soma's commentary > translation. This is a good example of the limitations of an English > translation in that it can choose only one of these interpretations for a > sutta translation. > ***** Sarah: As I understand, all the various meanings as translated by Ven Soma below > are correct and should be understood in the phrase “ekaayano aya.m > bhikkave maggo. > > In brief, the development of satipatthana is the only way that nibbana can > ever be realized. ... > > The path is only taught by the Buddha or from the Teachings in a Buddha > era. Those who have not heard and considered the Teachings cannot develop > satipatthana or the various insights. Furthemore, the (mundane)path ‘goes > solely’ to Nibbana, by understanding the characteristics and nature of all > the various objects (i.e paramattha dhammas)included in the four > satipatthanas repeatedly. > > Sarah > ====== > _______________________________________________________ > From the commentary and sub-commentary notes: > > "The only way" = The one way [Ekayanoti ekamaggo]. There are many words > for "way". The word used for "way" here is "ayana" ("going" or road). > Therefore, "This is the only way, O bhikkhus [ekayano ayam bhikkhave > maggo]" means here: "A single way ("going" or road), O bhikkhus, is this > way; it is not of the nature of a double way [ekamaggo ayam bhikkhave > maggo na dvedhapathabhuto]". > > Or it is "the only way" because it has to be trodden by oneself only > [ekeneva ayitabbo]. That is without a companion. The state of being > companionless is twofold: without a comrade, after abandoning contact with > the crowd, and in the sense of being withdrawn (or secluded) from craving, > through tranquillity of mind. > > Or it is called "ekayana" because it is the way of the one [ekassa ayana]. > "Of the one" = of the best; of all beings the Blessed One is best. > Therefore, it is called the Blessed One's Way. Although others too go > along that way, it is the Buddha's because he creates it. Accordingly it > is said: "He, the Blessed One, is the creator of the uncreated path, O > Brahman." It proceeds (or exists) only in this Doctrine-and-discipline and > not in any other. Accordingly the Master declared: "Subhadda, only in this > Doctrine-and-discipline is the Eightfold Way to be found." And further, > "ekayana" means: It goes to the one [ekam ayati] -- that is, it (the way) > goes solely to Nibbana. Although in the earlier stages this method of > meditation proceeds on different lines, in the latter, it goes to just the > one Nibbana.... > As Nibbana is without a second, that is, without craving as accompanying > quality, it is called the one. Hence it is said: "Truth is one; it is > without a second." > > Why is the Arousing of Mindfulness intended by the word "way"? Are there > not many other factors of the way, namely, understanding, thinking, > speech, action, livelihood, effort, and concentration, besides > mindfulness? To be sure there are. But all these are implied when the > Arousing of Mindfulness is mentioned, because these factors exist in union > with mindfulness. Knowledge, energy and the like are mentioned in the > analytically expository portion [niddese]. In the synopsis [uddese], > however, the consideration should be regarded as that of mindfulness > alone, by way of the mental disposition of those capable of being trained.> > Some [keci], however, construing according to the stanza beginning with > the words, "They do not go twice to the further shore [na param digunam > yanti]"[7] say, "One goes to Nibbana once, therefore it is ekayana." This > explanation is not proper. Because in this instruction the earlier part of > the Path is intended to be presented, the preliminary part of the Way of > Mindfulness proceeding in the four objects of contemplation is meant here, > and not the supramundane Way of Mindfulness. And that preliminary part of > the Path proceeds (for the aspirant) many times; or it may be said that > there is many a going on it, by way of repetition of practice. > > In what sense is it a "way"? In the sense of the path going towards > Nibbana, and in the sense of the path which is the one that should be (or > is fit to be) traversed by those who wish to reach Nibbana. 16461 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 25, 2002 10:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: vimuttatta, to Rahula Dear Rahula, Shall I bring this to the Pali yahoo list, if you like? It is complicated. it depends on your permission, I can say, a friend asked... Nina. op 25-10-2002 08:00 schreef rahula_80 op rahula_80@y...: > Yes, the PTS dictionary gave, "having an emancipated self". But Lance > Cousins said PTS is in error on this point. > > In buddha-L, he wrote: > > Vimuttattaa .thita.m. .Thitattaa santusita.m. Santusitattaa na > paritassati. > > So the first sentence corresponds to Sanskrit: vimuktatvaat sthitam > and so on. There is no atta/aatman here at all; it is the ablative > singular of the suffix tta = tva. Bhikkhu Bodhi is indeed vindicated. > > I have explain in an earlier post why I don't understand this. I am > just starting to learn Pali. Maybe that's is why I don't understand. > So please show me step by step. > The suffix -tvaa is added to the root of the verb or verbal base with > or sometimes without the connecting vowel -i- to form the gerung, > absolutive or the indeclinable particle. > > So, shouldn't it be rendered, vimucitvaa, never vimuttattaa. (muc + i > + tvaa)? > > Also, vimutta + tta = vimuttatta, NOT vimuttattaa. Right? If not, can > you explain how vimuttattaa is derived? > > I just couldn't figure out how to get "vimuttattaa" from "vimutta". > 16462 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Oct 25, 2002 7:20pm Subject: Predicted?left to Grow?/RobK --- Dear Howard, Thanks for the question. I think we read often in the tetxs how all things = are impermanent and that eventually the teachings of the Buddha and his disciples will be lost until another sasana begins in the distant futur= e. The Buddha said that because of creating the Bhikkhuni Sangha this sasana would last only five hundred years. But because of the eight rules the commentaries say it would last 5000 years. Other commentaries say that the rehearsal of the texts at the first council made it possible to last 5000 years. I find the commentaries reliable, others doubt them but if the commentaries are wrong then according to the Tipitaka the true Dhamma of the Buddha is now already lost. At the first council, led by Mahakassapa they recorded the Tipitaka and also the ancient commentaries: In the Atthasalini: from the introductory discourse it notes that the commentary to the Abhidhamma was recited at this time: "The ancient commentary therof was sang By the First council, Mahakassapa Their leader, and later again by seers, Mahinda bought it to the peerless isle, Ceylon,.."endquote The "Dispeller of Delusion" ((431): For there are three kinds of disappearance: disappearance of theoretical understanding (pariyatti), disappearance of penetration (pativedha) and disappearance of practice (patipatti). Herein, pariyatti is the three parts of the Tipitaka; the penetration is the penetration of t= he Truths; the practice is the way.... It says of the Scriptures first the Book of the Patthana (Conditional Relations) of the Abhidhamma disappears, and then successively the other Books of the Abhidamma. After that the Books of the Suttanta will successively disappear. "But when the two Pitakas [2] have disappeared, while the Vinaya Pitaka endures, the teachings (sasana) endure. " But sooner or later the Vinaya too disapears. It doesn't specifically say when the commentaries will go but I assumed that if the Tipitaka is declining then the commentaries to these works must also be disappearing: In the Gradual Sayings (Book of the Twos, Ch II, § 10) the Buddha said: Monks, these two things conduce to the confusion and disappearance of true Dhamma. What two? The wrong expression of the letter (of the text) and wrong interpretation of the meaning of it. For if the letter be wrongly expressed, the interpretation of the meaning is also wrong..... Monks, these two things conduce to the establishment, the non- confusion, to the non-disappearance of true Dhamma. What two? The right expression of the letter and right interpretation of the meaning.= For if the letter be rightly expressed, the interpretation of the meaning i= s also right.... ""endquote The commentaries (attha -meaning) are specifically recorded so as to make plain the meaning of the texts. If they are not studied it becomes easier for people to interpret the suttas according to their own opinions and so the wrong interpretation of the Tipitaka may occur. Thus knowing this we become encouraged not to neglect the development of insight, we are fortunate to be in a time when the Dhamma is still available. The teachings show us there is no self in any dhamma but if there is not application of effort to see this now then when? Robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > In a message dated 10/25/02 7:46:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > rjkjp1@y... writes: > > > Buddhaghosa was born about a thousand years after the Buddha. . > > Whether one belives in the Tipitaka or the commentaries is > > conditioned by various factors; nothing is really expected. Some > > Buddhists have valued the commenatries and so they have been > > preserved since the time of the buddha and are recited at the Buddhist > > councils. In the future it will come to occur that less people will val= ue > > them and so they will disapear. It is all predicted. > > > ======================= > Exactly *what* is all predicted? That the Buddhasasana will die out, > or that the commentaries will come to be ignored? Did the Buddha discuss the > commentaries in the Tipitaka? > > With metta, > Howard 16463 From: robmoult Date: Sat Oct 26, 2002 4:59am Subject: Questions for Nina (or others) Hi Nina, In your book on Conditional Relations (Page 24), you say, "The "Atthasalini" (Expositor II, Book II, Part I, Ch III,333,334) explains that the rupas which can be experienced through the senses become objects "by virtue of deliberate inclination" or "by virtue of intrusion". Is it correct to say that rupas that become objects "by virtue of deliberate inclination" are prompted (sankharika) and that the mind shifts to them "by one's wish" (see Page 25 of your text)? Is it therefore also correct to say that rupas that become objects "by virtue of intrusion" are unprompted (asankharika) and that the mind shifts to them due to "the excess of the new object (again Page 25 of your text)? On an unrelated topic, I have question regarding the beautiful sense sphere functional cittas (#47-#54). It is my understanding that these cittas only arise in the javana stage of Arahants (being functional, they don't generate kamma). However, I note that half of these are "not associated with wisdom". Is it possible for an arahant to have cittas "not associated with wisdom"? I thought that in the javana stage of an Arahant's thought process, the cetana was replaced by panna, yet half of these cittas are without panna. Nina, I am behind schedule and owe you a reply to your last message. Thanks, Rob M :-) 16464 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Oct 26, 2002 5:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] third insight knowledge Nina --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Num, Rob K, Sarah, Jon, ... > This ~naana is insight, direct experience, not thinking. How > can the five khandhas be experienced all at the same time? Also the Vis. > text about > this is difficult to understand. The feeling khandha can be understood > at one > moment, the sa~n~naa khandha at another moment. How can they be > understood in a group? > > Num: A.Sujin mentioned this that at this level the nana is very weak, > one can know > what is nama or rupa but very briefly. The santati makes us see khandha > as a > kalapa. A.Supee added that to know just a single moment of the mind or > rupa at a > time is a nana of the Buddha, not even his great disciples. I, too, find this interesting. The key seems to be that it is associated with panna that is weak. My guess is that what is being referred to here is the fact that, even when there is the direct experience of a dhamma, if the general level of awareness is weak (as we know it in fact is), there is still the idea of a person at such moments. In terms of paramattha dhammas, this I suppose means that there are moments of awareness (kusala) and moments of 'ordinary' (akusala) perception of the world arising alternately, with the latter predominating. This may be why it is said that when awareness is weak it can be difficult to see it for what it is, since it may manifest as moments of just a glimmer of direct experience of a dhamma, hardly distinguishable from moments when awareness is totally absent. Jon 16465 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Oct 26, 2002 5:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Light a Rupa? Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon (and Rob) - ... << ... I don't think that it is 100% correct that there is no seeing in total darkness. In such circumstances, we see darkness, itself, it seems to me - we see black. It seems to me that so long as we are a) conscious, and b) attending to vision, there is seeing.>> I’m not saying you are wrong here, Howard, but I just don’t see how, if there is total darkness, it’s possible to tell whether there is in fact seeing or not. Sure, the eyes will be wide open, there will be the intention to see and perhaps also the feeling of the contact of the air against the surface of the eyeball, so it will no doubt *seem like* there is seeing darkness; but if in fact there is no recognizable object and not even any light being perceived, then I don't think we can say for sure that seeing is taking place. But I don’t suppose anything turns on this ;-)). <> This is because there is still seeing going on despite the fact that our attention is fully directed elsewhere (seeing is a matter of vipaka, and so not something that is within our power to determine to happen or not at any given moment). <<[or] when, in a lighted room, … we are asleep , if the room is plunged into complete darkness we often will notice that, our attention shifting to the sense of sight …, and our being awakened.>> This I think would be because even when we are asleep, unless we are in the deep sleep that occurs when only bhavanga cittas arise, sense-door experiences may continue, at a ‘subconscious’ level. Jon 16466 From: robmoult Date: Sat Oct 26, 2002 6:44am Subject: Re: Should the Garden be left to Grow?/RobM Hi Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hi Rob, > > Sorry for the confusion. What I was trying to say, and I'm not sure > if this will be any clearer, is that my intellectual understanding > of what this "I" is, is: [from Nyanatiloka] a continually self- > consuming process of arising and passing bodily and mental > phenomena.' > Taking that as the definition of a sentient being - then death is the > temporary end of a temporary phenomena. The organic life ceases but > the continually arising processes, well ... continue arising and > changing ... rather relentlessly. It is not quite the same process of > mental phenomena that was the Bhikkhu, but it is not completely > different now that it is a dog or a caterpillar. > My example using a Bhikkhu being killed, and then the processes > taking another form of a caterpillar or dog, was just to say it was > the outer form that your quote seemed to invest with worth, the ever > decaying rupa. I was asking in a garbled way why there were different > values given to a living process of cittas and cetasikas, dependent > on size, outer form and perceived virtue ... it doesn't seem logical > to have an Order of Precedence. Either All Beings are important or > none are. Given the doctrine of Anatta - "none" would seem a more > consistent answer - but my heart votes for "All". > I am happy to put it in the 'too hard basket' for a while if the > Buddha said it - but if it isn't mentioned until many hundreds of > years after his parinibbana, then I wonder why? > Happy to be corrected. > > metta, > Christine There are many sources of Dhamma: 1. The Suttas (Monks' memories of the words of the Buddha) 2. The ancient commentaries (Buddhaghosa, etc.) 3. Modern commentaries (Nina, Bhikkhu Bodhi, etc.) Of course, in case of discrepencies, the Suttas take precedence above the others, but that does not imply that the others are not of great value and contain truths not contained in the Suttas. It would appear from recent messages that the issue of relative kammic weight of killing animals / size of animals is not in the Suttas but appears in the ancient commentaries. Here is my interpretation of the underlying logic: A virtuous person can be considered to be closer to enlightenment than a non-virtuous person. Therefore, the killing of a virtuous person creates more weighty kamma than killing a non-virtuous person. A human has the potential of enlightenment whereas an animal generally does not (though I think that there may be a story of a frog gaining enlightenment while listening to the Buddha - I'm not sure how this would work). Killing a being with the potential of enlightenment creates more kamma than killing a being not capable of enlightenment (i.e. an animal). When comparing the kammic weight of killing humans, nthere is an ethical quality at the centre. When considering the relative weight of killing large vs. small animals, I think that the emphasis turns from ethical (closeness of the victim to enlightenment) to practical (amount of effort expended to commit the act). It is certainly tougher to catch a fly than to catch an elephant, but catching and killing are separate acts. If I had in front of me an immobilized fly and an immobilized elephant, it would require litte effort to kill the fly, but I doubt that I could do more than annoy the elephant (unless I had weapons with me). I cannot imagine the effort required to kill an elephant with my bare hands (nor do I want to think about this). So in summary, death is not final (as you mentioned above), however causing death creates kamma, and when considering the kamma created, not all killing is equal. Again, I want to restate that the kammic weight of an action depends on the underlying volition. Type of being / size of animal are secondary factors. We should certainly avoid killing insects, but given the limited time we have being born as a human, I think that it is important to first focus our efforts on the "bigger issues". I'm starting to repeat myself. Christine, are we making progress, moving in circles or getting further into left field? Metta, Rob M :-) 16467 From: robmoult Date: Sat Oct 26, 2002 6:50am Subject: Re: Should the Garden be left to Grow? Hi Tom, In a recent posting to Christine, I wrote, "It is certainly tougher to catch a fly than to catch an elephant, but catching and killing are separate acts. If I had in front of me an immobilized fly and an immobilized elephant, it would require little effort to kill the fly, but I doubt that I could do more than annoy the elephant (unless I had weapons with me). I cannot imagine the effort required to kill an elephant with my bare hands (nor do I want to think about this)." Does this help? Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "proctermail" wrote: > Hi Rob, > > Is not the effort required not to kill a smaller animal greater than > that to kill a bigger? > > tp 16468 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sat Oct 26, 2002 6:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ekayana, summary Dear Nina, I will have to get back to you at a later date on this topic as I'm taking a break from list participation. I've turned to other mundane matters such as preparing for the upcoming winter (mostly replenishing my stockpile of firewood). I also feel a need to go into seclusion for awhile. Just touching briefly on the 'only' in the only way, I looked it up in the dictionary and read that it is derived from one + ly. One of the meanings of the suffix -ly is 'having the qualities of '. I agree that further study and discussion is needed on the points pertaining to 'ekaayano'. I should also mention that the subcommentaries mention at least 4 meanings for 'eka' -- a numeral (sa"nkhyaaya.m), companionless (asahaaye), the best (se.t.thatthe), and (an)other (a~n~natthe). I thought of 'this path is the best way' as another interpretation. Best wishes, Jim << Dear Sarah and Jim, I think Sarah gave an excellent summary of the discussions on One Way, with notes from Co and subco. I really enjoyed reading this very much, and so useful to see it again together. We still have a few things to solve. Jim collected six possibilities, erasing no. 6, but saying that of the others there are still things not clear. Please, Jim, what is not clear yet? Which matters we still have to investigate? I think we should further study and discuss such points. It is important. With appreciation, Nina. >> 16469 From: Date: Sat Oct 26, 2002 9:51pm Subject: Why 4 Satipatthana Dear group, I think the distinctions made in this section of the commentary are key to understanding the rest of the sutta. In addition, they are definitely new to me and answer a long standing puzzlement on why there are these seemingly not quite connected four foundations. In that light here is the entire commentary and sub-commentary which I will be sending again in smaller pieces throughout the week: Cattaro Satipatthana = "The Four Arousings of Mindfulness." Four in relation to classes of objects of mindfulness. Why did the Buddha teach just Four Arousings of Mindfulness and neither more nor less? By way of what was suitable for those capable of being trained. In regard to the pair of the dull-witted and the keen-witted minds among tamable persons of the craving type and the theorizing type, pursuing the path of quietude [samatha] or that of insight [vipassana] in the practice of meditation, the following is stated: For the dull-witted man of craving type the Arousing of Mindfulness through the contemplation of the gross physical body is the Path to Purity; for the keen-witted of this type, the subtle subject of meditation on the feeling. And for the dull-witted man of the theorizing type the Path to Purity is the Arousing of Mindfulness through a subject not too full of distinctions, namely, consciousness [citta]; for the keen-witted of this type, the subject which teems with distinctions, namely the contemplation on things of the mind -- mental objects [dhammanupassana]. For the dull-witted man, pursuing quietude, the First Arousing of Mindfulness, body-contemplation, is the Path to Purity, by reason of the feasibility of getting at the mental reflex; for the keen-witted of this type, because he does not continue to stay in the coarse, the second Arousing of Mindfulness, the contemplation on feeling, is the Path to Purity. And for the dull-witted man pursuing the path of insight, the subject of meditation without many distinctions, the contemplation on consciousness, is the Path to Purity; and for the keen-witted of this type the contemplation on mental objects which is full of distinctions. Or it may be said that these Four Arousings of Mindfulness are taught for casting out the illusions [vipallasa] concerning beauty, pleasure, permanence, and an ego. The body is ugly. There are people led astray by the illusion that it is a thing of beauty. In order to show such people the ugliness of the body and to make them give up their wrong idea, the First Arousing of Mindfulness is taught. Feeling is suffering. There are people subject to the illusion that it gives pleasure. In order to show such people the painfulness of feeling and to make them give up their wrong idea, the Second Arousing of Mindfulness is taught. Consciousness is impermanent. There are people who, owing to an illusion, believe that it is permanent. To show them the impermanence of consciousness and to wean them of their wrong belief, the Third Arousing of Mindfulness is taught. Mental objects are insubstantial, are soulless, and possess no entity. There are people who believe by reason of an illusion that these mental things are substantial, endowed with an abiding core, or a soul, or that they form part of a soul, an ego or some substance that abides. To convince such errant folk of the fact of the soullessness or the insubstantiality of mental things and to destroy the illusion which clouds their minds, the Fourth Arousing of Mindfulness is taught. [Tika] Drawing distinctions, it is said: Body and feeling are the cause of zest [assadassa karana]. For the rejection of that zest of body, by the dull-witted [manda] man of the craving type [tanhacarita], the seeing [dassana] of the ugly [asubha] in the body, the coarse object [olarika arammana], which is the basis of craving [tanha vatthu], is convenient. To that type of man the contemplation on corporeality, the First Arousing of Mindfulness, is the Path to Purity [Visuddhi Magga]. For the abandoning of that zest, by the keen-witted [tikha] man of the craving type, the seeing of suffering in feeling, the subtle object [sukhuma arammana], which is the basis of craving, is convenient, and for him the contemplation on feeling, the Second Arousing of Mindfulness, is the Path to Purity. [T] For the dull-witted man of the theorizing type [ditthi carita] it is convenient to see consciousness [citta] in the fairly simple way it is set forth in this discourse, by way of impermanence [aniccata], and by way of such divisions as mind-with-lust [saragadi vasena], in order to reject the notion of permanence [nicca sañña] in regard to consciousness. Consciousness is a special condition [visesa karana] for the wrong view due to a basic belief in permanence [niccanti abhinivesa vatthutaya ditthiya]. The contemplation on consciousness, the Third Arousing of Mindfulness, is the Path to Purity of this type of man. [T] For the keen-witted man of the theorizing type it is convenient to see mental objects or things [dhamma], according to the manifold way set forth in this discourse, by way of perception, sense-impression and so forth [nivaranadi vasena], in order to reject the notion of a soul [atta sañña] in regard to mental things. Mental things are special conditions for the wrong view due to a basic belief in a soul [attanti abhinivesa vatthutaya ditthiya]. For this type of man the contemplation on mental objects, the Fourth Arousing of Mindfulness, is the Path to Purity. [T] Consciousness and mental objects constitute the outstanding conditions of theorizing. Consciousness is such a condition because it is a decisive factor in the belief in permanence. Mental objects are such conditions because these are decisive factors in the belief in a soul. [T] Consciousness and mental objects are decisive factors of craving as well as of theorizing. And body and feeling are decisive factors of theorizing as well as of craving. Yet to point out that which is stronger in body and feeling, namely, craving, and that which is stronger in consciousness and mental objects, namely, theorizing, distinctions have been drawn. [T] "Because he does not continue to stay in the coarse": The keen-witted man pursuing the path of quietude lays hold of the gross subject of meditation, but he does not stay in that. He lays hold of feeling, the subtle subject of meditation, by way of the factors of absorption [jhana] after attaining to and emerging from the absorption reached with the material body as subject. [T] Since the heart of the man pursuing the path of insight takes to the contemplation of subtle consciousness and mental object, these have been spoken of as the Path to Purity for the man, dull-witted or keen-witted, pursuing insight. Further these Four Arousings of Mindfulness were taught not only for the purpose of casting out the four illusions, but for getting rid of the four floods, bonds, outflowings, knots, clingings, wrong courses, and the penetration of fourfold nutriment, too. This is according to the method of exegesis in the Nettipakarana. In the commentary it is said that by way of remembering and of meeting in one thing, the Arousing of Mindfulness is only one; and that it is fourfold when regarded as a subject of meditation. [T] "By way of remembering": by way of the reflection of actions of skill, and so forth, of body, speech, and thought. [T] "Meeting in one thing" = union in the one-natured Nibbana. To a city with four gates, mental objects coming from the East with goods produced in the east enter by the east gate... men coming from the South... men coming from the West... and men coming from the North with goods produced in the north enter by the north gate. Nibbana is like the city. The Real Supramundane Eightfold Path is like the city-gate. Body, mind, feelings and mental objects are like the four chief directions in space. Like the people coming from the East with goods produced in the east are those who enter Nibbana by means of body-contemplation through the Real Supramundane Path produced by the power of body-contemplation practiced in the fourteen ways. Like the people coming from the South... are those who enter... by means of feeling-contemplation... practiced in the nine ways. Like the people coming from the West... are those who enter... by means of consciousness-contemplation... practiced in the sixteen ways. Like the people coming from the North... are those who enter... by means of mental-object-contemplation... practiced in the five ways. [T] On account of the cause or on account of the sameness of entry into the one Nibbana, the Arousing of Mindfulness is said to be just one thing. The meeting in the one Nibbana of the various Arousings of Mindfulness is called the meeting in the one thing on account of participation in that one Nibbana or on account of their becoming all of a kind. 16470 From: Date: Sat Oct 26, 2002 10:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 16, Comm. "For the dull-witted man, pursuing quietude, the First Arousing of Mindfulness, body-contemplation, is the Path to Purity, by reason of the feasibility of getting at the mental reflex." Hi all, Can anyone explain about the 'Path to Purity"? Is that the same as the 7 stage visuddhimagga and are there two basic approaches to it, by tranquility or by insight? Also, any speculations on what is "getting at the mental reflex"? Larry 16471 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Oct 26, 2002 11:04pm Subject: Re: Should the Garden be left to Grow? Hi RobM, and RobK, Tom and All, Probably we are beginning to repeat ourselves, or are using different words to maintain the same position. :) Staying with this for a while though: It seems to me that rebirth is being de-valued or ignored - as if this life (particularly this physical form) is the only one to judge by. The meaning from your last posts seems to be that the commentaries say Size matters (and species too), and therefore, effort, but this is not in the Suttas? The caterpillar or a mosquito would be easy to kill, but they are not a living tabula rasa with no past and all their history yet to be written. How do you know the insect isn't just settling a kammic debt from the past and is really a Bodhisatta Caterpillar or Mosquito? :) I don't think the sequence of rebirths on the road to Deliverance is a rising straight line graph is it? My understanding is that it is more like being in a washing machine, swirled up and down and around without control. (I agree with you Tom when you ask, "Is not the effort required NOT to kill a smaller animal greater than that to kill a bigger?" Particularly if meditating and you have ears, arms and legs bare for irritatingly whining mosquitos ... So easy to swat, So hard not to. Remember when next tempted to kill a mosquito, spider or cockroach - to use repellent, window screens or even catch the little one in a computer disc box and carry it outside to release. Perhaps killing when there are non-harming alternatives would carry a greater kammic weight? :)) Maybe I need to understand more about cittas, and how to tell which are akusala, and what conditions them. I don't understand about what seems to be a 'diffusion of kammic responsibility' in the case of pushing the nuclear button. It would seem to me that most people with a factory job would not be conscious that they were making a nuclear missile, and would not be planning to kill. They would only know that they have to make so many 'widgets' for Brown Bros. by 5.00 p.m. or they wouldn't be getting home to the family dinner on time. Brown Bros. would be making tail flukes for Anderson and Company. Anderson and Company would be assembling other bits that had come in from fifty small businesses. and sending them on to Jamiesons Defense Industries etc. etc. None of the workers or companies involved would be intending to blow apart people and towns in the as yet unarisen 2016 War between two (unnamed) countries over the watering rights of cattle. But the one who pushed the button would, as would the one who gave the order to push the button. So I am still quite taken with kamma as volition, intention. Another meaning from previous posts seems to be that Position Matters. Even if you don't know it and you harm an important Being, or even if you harm a violent, evil, attacking parent - you are in deep trouble. Thinking along these lines makes the supposed 'fairness' of kamma a little shaky. > There are many sources of Dhamma: > 1. The Suttas (Monks' memories of the words of the Buddha) > 2. The ancient commentaries (Buddhaghosa, etc.) > 3. Modern commentaries (Nina, Bhikkhu Bodhi, etc.) > Of course, in case of discrepencies, the Suttas take precedence > above the others, but that does not imply that the others are not of > great value and contain truths not contained in the Suttas. I think the essence of my concern is this: I believed there was only one source of correct original Teachings - the Buddha. That these teachings are precious, not easily come by. I believed that the suttas were accepted universally as undeniable Word of the Buddha, concise and often packed with meaning, and that others may be able to unpack, elucidate and explain the context in which the sutta was spoken and what the Buddha meant. I did not believe that this meant they could add competely new teachings. Or that they could change meanings, or add extra factors. I agree that neither Nina nor Bhikkhu Bodhi do this. But I think it is possible that other commentators, teachers and writers of buddhist books do. I did not know that the suttas are only the memories of monks. (Somehow I thought that the actual words of the Buddha had been meticulously preserved. This was why I was so moved when at Aluvihara and when hearing the heroic stories of reciting the Teachings until death from Sri Lanka.) Suttas as 'monk's memories' would put things in a new light. Anyone who has been in a traffic accident will know the completely different recollections that witnesses have only an hour or two after the event. Memory, even of well intentioned good people, whether cleric or not, is unreliable. Wouldn't this mean there is actually no point in quoting suttas and commentaries - because who knows what was really said, and whether a crucial word here and there has been accidentally or deliberately added, changed, forgotten or left out ... Maybe it would be better just to understand the general thrust of the Teachings and then explore from one's own and others understanding and experience - which is what many people who value experience and do not value study say anyway. That we rely too much on Old Books. (They mean the Pali Canon.) I believed that by teaching for forty-five years the Blessed One repeatedly covered all that was necessary for us to know to find Liberation. I believed that there were no other unrevealed truths held in the closed fist of the Teacher, given only to favoured disciples, or left to be discovered by others throughout time. It was resting safely in the arms of the Tipitaka that informed my practice - not knowing them as the certain, unchallengeable base, the litmus test, throws one back on endless philosophical discussions and debate where, finally, personal preference is the arbiter of truth and reality. A perpetual agnosticism. much to think about, metta, Chrisine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Tom, > > In a recent posting to Christine, I wrote, "It is certainly tougher > to catch a fly than to catch an elephant, but catching and killing > are separate acts. If I had in front of me an immobilized fly and an > immobilized elephant, it would require little effort to kill the > fly, but I doubt that I could do more than annoy the elephant > (unless I had weapons with me). I cannot imagine the effort required > to kill an elephant with my bare hands (nor do I want to think about > this)." > > Does this help? > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "proctermail" wrote: > > Hi Rob, > > > > Is not the effort required not to kill a smaller animal greater > than > > that to kill a bigger? > > > > tp 16472 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Oct 27, 2002 2:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Elements of Thinking/Contemplation in Vipassana Bhavana Howard If I understand you correctly, Howard, you are saying that at less developed levels of understanding there must be a limiting/choosing of the object, while at more developed levels the limiting/choosing drops away. I know this is a common perception among those who follow a ‘directed attention’ strategy, but I believe it may be a questionable approach. If ‘limiting/choosing’ the object is not what the Buddha in fact taught, then this practice could never lead to right understanding. I do believe it’s possible from the beginning for there to be awareness that arises without any limiting or choosing of the object of awareness. Jon --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > In a message dated 10/19/02 8:10:58 AM Eastern > Daylight Time, > jonoabb@y... writes: > > > Howard > > > > In your post below you say of 'informal > meditation': > > < arises clearly without > > "getting > > lost".>> > > > > “Seeingâ€? here is another word for “attending > toâ€?. But if you think about > > it, there cannot be “attending toâ€? something > without a clear idea of what > > the “somethingâ€? is. Even when we call it > “whatever arisesâ€?, there has to > > be an idea of what that might possibly be, and so > there is, in effect, it > > seems to me, a specifying or limiting of the > object at that moment of > > directed attention. > > > > Jon > > > ======================= > For you and me this is so, very much so. The > more advanced and adept > we become, the less true I believe it is. > > With metta, > Howard 16473 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Oct 27, 2002 2:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation and Satipatthana Nina --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Jon, > I appreciate very much your reminders of the > practice in this post. I just > have one question about dhammanusati, recollection > of dhamma as a subject of > samatha. There cannot be satipatthana often, infact, > it seldom arises for > me. There can be pondering on the Dhamma with kusala > citta, without direct > awareness. However, aversion with tiredness or > aversion because of finding > the matter difficult is also bound to arise. Can it > not happen (without > trying) that there are moments of samatha? And then, > this does not exclude > that some moments of awareness can arise too in > between. Nobody can choose > anything. Samatha and satipatthana could alternately > arise. ... Thanks for reminding me about dhammanusati as a subject of samatha (this was not in my mind when writing to Larry, as our conversation was very much in the context of references in the Satipatthana Sutta). I agree that discussions about the dhamma, considering what has been discussed, and the like with kusala citta are indeed instances of dhammanusati of samatha (and are, by the way, a good example of samatha being a strong supportive condition for the arising of satipatthana). As you say, this kind of kusala can happen without trying; it is ‘daily life’ samatha. Thanks for the good reminders in the rest of your post, and also the useful comments in the post from Rob K. On the subject of nightly recitation before going to sleep, I would see this as one of those things that may or may not be kusala, depending on the precise mind-state of the person at the time. We cannot really make any generalisation about it. Jon ... > S. : The recitation we do every night before going > to sleep is > the paying of respect to the Buddha. This is a > meritorious > action of the level of siila, because it is kusala > performed > through body and speech. But for kusala citta with > calm of the > level of samatha it is not sufficient to merely > recite words, > but it is also necessary to recollect, to ponder > over the > excellent qualities of the Buddha." endquote > She then explains a little more about Buddhanusati. > > > A good reminder not to have desire for the > Recollections, as being so > kusala. > Nina. 16474 From: Sarah Date: Sun Oct 27, 2002 3:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] ekayana, summary Dear Jim, --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Dear Nina, > > I will have to get back to you at a later date on this topic as I'm > taking a > break from list participation. I've turned to other mundane matters such > as > preparing for the upcoming winter (mostly replenishing my stockpile of > firewood). I also feel a need to go into seclusion for awhile. ..... I’d like to just butt in here to say that I’ve found all your contributions to date in the Way corner to be very helpful indeed. I sincerely hope you manage to follow some of the threads and continue to ‘chip’ in from time to time whenever it is convenient or you feel inclined to do so after your break. Stockpiles of firewood take me back to childhood memories.....they’re a very rare sight in Hong Kong! I'm sure you need quite a stockpile, if this is your main source of heating for an Ontario winter. ..... >Just > touching > briefly on the 'only' in the only way, I looked it up in the dictionary > and > read that it is derived from one + ly. One of the meanings of the suffix > -ly > is 'having the qualities of '. I agree that further study and discussion > is > needed on the points pertaining to 'ekaayano'. I should also mention > that > the subcommentaries mention at least 4 meanings for 'eka' -- a numeral > (sa"nkhyaaya.m), companionless (asahaaye), the best (se.t.thatthe), and > (an)other (a~n~natthe). I thought of 'this path is the best way' as > another > interpretation. ..... One thing for sure is, as you suggested before, ‘ekaayano’ suggests many meanings whereas when using an English translation, only one can be stressed.Thank you for checking/confirming the 'one-ly'. With thanks and appreciation, Sarah ===== 16475 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Oct 27, 2002 4:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation and Satipatthana Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - ... << Jon, do you find this explanation of the difference (or lack of difference) between dhammanupassana and the others completely adequate? (Actually, isn't it more a matter of establishments of mindfulness than of insight? The Satipatthana Sutta is not called the Vipassanapatthana Sutta.)>> I think it's fairly clear from the text of the Satipatthana Sutta itself that what is being talked about is the insight that leads to enlightenment, and not something lesser than/other than that. Consider, for example, the following extracts from the opening and closing passages to the sutta: "This is the only way, O bhikkhus, … for reaching the right path, for the attainment of Nibbana, namely, the Four Arousings of Mindfulness." and "O bhikkhus, should any person maintain the Four Arousings of Mindfulness in this manner …, then by him one of two fruitions is proper to be expected: Knowledge (Arahantship) here and now; or, if some form of clinging is yet present, the state of Non-Returning (the Third Stage of Supramundane Fulfillment).” <> I think it goes without saying that there was a particular reason for each of the 4 arousings/foundations, but since the first 3 foundations do not cover all the paramattha dhammas that can be object of satipatthana, it hardly seems necessary to look for any explanation beyond that. (To my mind, the more interesting question would be why the paramattha dhammas are divided into these particular 4 categories -- i.e., why not some other 4, or why not more or less). <> I agree that the factors comprising the 1st foundation are presented more in conventional terms than are the factors that make up the 4th, which are more in terms of paramattah dhammas, but I ouldn't see this as calling for the conclusion that you suggest. Quite apart from the fact that I am happy to accept the commentarial position as a working hypothesis, I don’t find in the text of the sutta itself the kind of support for your theory that I would expect to see. Compare, for example, the following passage from the (3rd) section on Contemplation of Consciousness: "Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu understands the consciousness with lust, as with lust; …” with this passage from the (4th) section on Contemplation on Mental Objects: "Here, O bhikkhus, when sensuality is present, a bhikkhu knows with understanding: 'I have sensuality,'…” The former is given more in terms of paramattha dhammas (i.e., is less conceptual) than the latter. Jon 16476 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Oct 27, 2002 4:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation and Satipatthana Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Jon, > > Two points: > > 1. Way 11 tika: "just the contemplation of material > form (corpreality), > of feeling, consciousness or mental objects, > constitutes the cultivation > of the Arousing of Mindfulness " > > L: there are many ways of arousing mindfulness, > these discussions here > are one of them. I would see the kind of exposure to and consideration of the teachings that this list allows for as a necessary basis for the arousing mindfulness, and I would of course agree that there are any number of different ways of getting that exposure (and reflecting usefully on what has been heard). I would not regard these factors as ‘ways of arousing mindfulness’, but this may be more a difference of terminology than of substance. > 2. You wrote: "satipatthana is a matter of the > *understanding of things > as they truly are*, and this is not something that > can be reduced to a > technique of any kind. It does not mean that the > 'how to' is a matter of > whatever anyone finds 'works' for them." > > L: I think the commentary points out that there are > different ways of > understanding satipatthana. I agree as a means of > understanding > realities is valid, but for me it is basically a > means of letting go of > the proliferation of attachment. As such, I would > say technique does > play a role and different techniques are more > suitable for different > people. This discussion is a technique, in my view. I’m not sure what part of the commentary you have in mind here – do you have a reference? As I said above, I believe hearing the teachings and reflecting on what has been heard, constantly and repeatedly, is a necessary condition for everyone, regardless of how they get to hear and reflect. Jon 16477 From: Sarah Date: Sun Oct 27, 2002 5:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Should the Garden be left to Grow? Dear Chris, Robs M&K, Tom & All, Let me add just a few relevant brief quotes from the Khuddakapatha commentary which Rob K prompted me to look at again. There is a lot of detail relating to all the precepts. ***** 1.Definition of killing: “When in the case of such a breathing thing someone perceives it as a breathing thing, then ‘killing breathing things’ is his choice to kill occurring in either the body door or the speech door, and originating the active process of severing the life faculty.” ..... comment: As Rob M has stressed, the strength required for an act of killing, relates to the volition and it is the volition, the cetana, that is referred to by kamma. Effort, viriya, is also a mental factor, so any comments relating to degree of effort in this context, relate to the akusala (unwholesome) viriya accompanying the akusala cetana and other factors. ***** 2.Weight of kamma: “ ‘By blamability’: in the case of breathing things beginning with animals that are devoid of special qualities, killing of breathing things is (relatively) less blamable in the case of a small one and more blamable in the case of one with a large physical frame. Why? Because of the greatr magnitude of the means (needed); and when the means are equal,(it depends) on the greater magnitude of the object, (namely, the breathing thing.) But in the case of human beings, etc, endowed with special qualities, killing-breathing-things is (relatively) less blamable in the case of one with small special qualities; and when there is equality of special qualities and of the physical frame, then the lesser blamableness should be understood to reside in the (relative) mildness of the defilements and of the active process adopted, and the greater blamablenes in their greater violence.” .... comment: This has to be read in the light of the first point.In other words,it refers to the intention, the effort and degree of akusala, not to the physical strength. Someone referred to the Godfather’s nod before, for example, or we’ve all been following the details of the Sniper killings and so I think this is apparent. Kamma is very, very complex (only to be fully understood by a Buddha). Earlier there was another section discussing the intricacies of one or multiple victims and one or multiple killers. There are always many inter-related points and details. ***** 3. It is NOT physical strength.... “ ‘By means’:in the case of killing-breathing-things there are six kinds of means: with one’s own hand, by command, by missile, by fixed contrivance, by (magical) science, and by supernormal power.” In the case of a command: “...responsibility for the action lies with both the one giving the command and the one commanded: with the former from the moment of his giving the command, and with the latter from the moment of the death.” (Many other details are given. For example,if the object is mistaken, if the being doesn’t die from the blow but from sickness afterwards, if the being dies from a second blow given by someone else etc etc....Also interesting details are given about laying traps, such as a pit, and when one is relieved from responsibility - “It is only according as roots interlock with roots in that place and it thus once more becomes firm ground that he is freed (from potential responsibility)”). ***** 4. Benefits of abstention from killing: “(As to fruit) the fruits of abstention from killing-breathing-things are such things as excellence of limbs, excellence of height and girth, excellence of speed, sure-footedness, elegance, malleability, pureness, courage, great strength, clarity of speech, popularity in the world, and assembly without schisms, untimorousness, unpersecutedness, immunity from death by others’ violence, constant support, beauty of form, beauty of shape, unafflictedness, sorrowlessness, non-separation from those dear and beloved, longevity, and so on.” .... Comment: Hope this is encouraging;-)) The only way to really understand the value of abstention from any kind of akusala (unwholesomeness) is by understanding the mind when these states arise, rather than being unduly concerned about results (usually with attachment or aversion. From Nina’s translation of K.Sujin’s Perfections, under viriya (today’s installment), we read: “For someone who habitually develops satipatthåna, sati sampajañña can immediately be aware when akusala citta arises, and he does not need to wait until it is time to examine himself. This is the beginning of the development of satipatthåna, even if one does not know yet realities as nåma and rúpa which are non-self. It is already a degree of sati sampajañña when the characteristic of akusala dhamma is known as it naturally appears.” ***** In the same extract, I found the following reminder helpful of the ox simile for developing kusala viriya (wholesome energy): “The Commentary explains further that energy does not let go of the desire-to-do, chanda (which is necessary to accomplish something), that it does not give up the task, and does not give in to discouragement with regard to the performing of kusala. It uses a simile of an ox which carries a burden and does not let go of it: Just as if they were to say, ‘Get a beast of burden, an ox, to draw a burden from a marshy place not beyond the bullock’s strength,’ and the bullock, pressing the ground with its knees, were to carry the burden and would not allow it to drop on the ground, so energy lifts up and seizes the burden in the matter of doing moral acts. Hence it is said to be ‘support of burden’.” ***** Thanks to all for reminders and encouragement for the ‘performing of kusala’. Sarah ===== 16478 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Oct 27, 2002 7:07am Subject: Re: Should the Garden be left to Grow? --- Dear Christine and all, I'm in Cambodia at the moment so have no way to access the commentary by Buddhaghosa about killing . I'd like to stress though that he gives many details that help us consider the relative weight of kamma. None of this is meant to be absolute as that will depend on complex factors that vary so much in any one situation. When the texts talk about effort is is helpful to consider it in terms of citta, cetasika and rupa. And as rupa cannot make effort we understand more about the mental factor of effort. \ _____ Christine: . It would seem to me that most people > with a factory job would not be conscious that they were making a > nuclear missile, and would not be planning to kill. _____ yes this right. In the commentaries it says that if one has no intention to kill - and how could one if they didn't know it was a missile - then there is no akusala kamma. _______ if you harm a violent, evil, attacking parent - you are in > deep trouble. Thinking along these lines makes the > supposed 'fairness' of kamma a little shaky. ______ Good point. Actually the commentaries do distinguish along these lines. They say that - to help us consider - that if one murdered both parents then the killing of the mother is normally more weighty because she is the one who nurtures the child in the womb and later. But if the mother is of bad character and the father is good then it could be that the kiling of the father had more weight. Again these are not absolutes and the reason to give these examples is to help us understand the diversity of kamma and its results. As Rob M said it is not that all kamma has equal weight. There is the experience of objects through the five sense all day long and the experience of these is vipaka. It is very variable and it can be known to some degree that this variety comes about because of different kamma done in the past. (Even though there is no way to know the exact kamma). Even for example we kill two mosquitos on the same day within minutes of each other the weight of the kama will be different depending on the menatl factors that are associted with it. One might be killed with only a slight intention and not much hate and teh next with more intention. Both are still serious breaches of kamma that can bring unwholesome results but still not identical. In the case of 2 different people the difference will be even greater. One might kill thinking that to kill mosquitos is a good thing to help rid the world of them. Thus with wrong view. Whereas another could be a government worker whose duties occasionally call for him to to clean the waterways of mosquito eggs. But he knows this is wrong. In the later case if he has the chance to change jobs he will. ----------------- Christine: Particularly if meditating and you have ears, arms and legs bare for > irritatingly whining mosquitos ... So easy to swat, So hard not to. > Remember when next tempted to kill a mosquito, ______ I think I havent knowingly killed a mosquito for 18 years ', including a stay in mai-sai where they were bíting and known to carry malaria. But that is because they don't bother me that much so there are enough conditions to keep sila. On the other hand when Alex's school (in Japan) was swept by worms the nurses tested everyone and Alex(my son) was one of many who had worms. They sent home a note saying he had to take medicine to kill the worms. I could have argued and refused and had the case taken to the admistation authorities but it would have bought pressure to bear on Alex as the only Gaijin (foreign) boy in the school (over a thousand students). Also I had noticed him itching around the anus and wanted it cleared. I consented. It really reminded me of what Buddhaghosa said (I think in the Visudhimagga)that one might have a limited sila where one does not break it under normal conditions but one might break it for wife or children. The one who is really wise of course- who has penetrated realities deeply - could not even have the thought to break sila even if it meant they were about to die. BTW it is my first time in Phnom Penh and what a lovely city it is - I am really impressed with the amenities and wide open roads in the city, nice parks and smiling people. Lots of opportunites to give tips too to people who really need it and plenty of polite beggars who need it even more. My driver took me to the shooting range today and I indulged my boyishness with an UZI and a AK47. Declined the offer of a live chicken (extra 10 dollars) or cow ($150)to shoot at. Have just left a very luxurious spa where they have spa pools, sauna steam room, massage and cinema room - attendants everywhere (not used to being dressed by a man though) - as much tea, coffee, hot chocolate, coke, fanta etc as you want - and all for 10 dollars! Robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hi RobM, and RobK, Tom and All, > > Probably we are beginning to repeat ourselves, or are using different > words to maintain the same position. :) Staying with this for a > while though: It seems to me that rebirth is being de-valued or > ignored - as if > this life (particularly this physical form) is the only one to judge > by. The meaning from your last posts seems to be that the > commentaries say Size matters (and species too), and therefore, > effort, but this is not in the Suttas? > > Wouldn't this mean there is actually no point in quoting suttas and > commentaries - because who knows what was really said, and whether a > crucial word here and there has been accidentally or deliberately > added, > changed, forgotten or left out ... Maybe it would be better just to > understand > the general thrust of the Teachings and then > explore from one's own and others understanding and experience - > which is what many people who value experience and do not value study > say > anyway. That we rely too much on Old Books. (They mean the Pali > Canon.) I > believed that by teaching for forty-five years the Blessed One > repeatedly > covered all that was necessary for us to know to find Liberation. I > 16479 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Oct 27, 2002 7:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Questions for Nina (or others) Dear Rob M, do not worry about being behind schedule, you are so often traveling. I always appreciate your posts, no matter they are belated. op 26-10-2002 13:59 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > In your book on Conditional Relations (Page 24), you > say, "The "Atthasalini" (Expositor II, Book II, Part I, Ch > III,333,334) explains that the rupas which can be experienced > through the senses become objects "by virtue of deliberate > inclination" or "by virtue of intrusion". > > Is it correct to say that rupas that become objects "by virtue of > deliberate inclination" are prompted (sankharika) and that the mind > shifts to them "by one's wish" (see Page 25 of your text)? Is it > therefore also correct to say that rupas that become objects "by > virtue of intrusion" are unprompted (asankharika) and that the mind > shifts to them due to "the excess of the new object (again Page 25 > of your text)? N: we cannot call rupas prompted and unprompted, this is only for cittas and cetasikas. Depending on accumulated inclinations cittas can be prompted or unprompted. Rupas are not accumulated and they do not accumulate, they do not know anything. > On an unrelated topic, I have question regarding the beautiful sense > sphere functional cittas (#47-#54). It is my understanding that > these cittas only arise in the javana stage of Arahants (being > functional, they don't generate kamma). However, I note that half of > these are "not associated with wisdom". Is it possible for an > arahant to have cittas "not associated with wisdom"? I thought that > in the javana stage of an Arahant's thought process, the cetana was > replaced by panna, yet half of these cittas are without panna. N: The javanacittas of the arahats are not always accompanied by panna, for example when they do not explain Dhamma, when they greet someone else, they may speak without panna. But not without sati and other sobhana qualities. The classification itself is half-half, but this does not mean that in real life half of the time the cittas are without panna. Who can count? Cetana is not replaced by panna, cetana; as you know, it arises with each citta. But in this case it does not generate new kamma. Nina. 16480 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Oct 27, 2002 7:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] third insight knowledge op 26-10-2002 14:29 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: >> Num: A.Sujin mentioned this that at this level the nana is very weak, >> one can know >> what is nama or rupa but very briefly. The santati makes us see khandha >> as a >> kalapa. A.Supee added that to know just a single moment of the mind or >> rupa at a >> time is a nana of the Buddha, not even his great disciples. > Jon: I, too, find this interesting. The key seems to be that it is associated > with panna that is weak. My guess is that what is being referred to here > is the fact that, even when there is the direct experience of a dhamma, if > the general level of awareness is weak (as we know it in fact is), there > is still the idea of a person at such moments. Nina: But when there is the idea of person it would not be at the same time as awareness? Jon: In terms of paramattha dhammas, this I suppose means that there are > moments of awareness (kusala) and moments of 'ordinary' (akusala) > perception of the world arising alternately, with the latter > predominating. > > This may be why it is said that when awareness is weak it can be difficult > to see it for what it is, since it may manifest as moments of just a > glimmer of direct experience of a dhamma, hardly distinguishable from > moments when awareness is totally absent. N: Still, it is important to know the difference, because if we know it, A.Sujin said, sati can be developed. We have to know the characteristic of sati of satipatthana. We have to go on discussing this point, I believe. In the case of the third stage of insight (still tender insight), it must be clear that a moment with sati is different from a moment without sati. At that stage no thought of a person when nama or rupa appears, because panna knows alreadfy nama as nama and rupa as rupa. What do you think about this? Could Rob K. perhaps take this up with A. Sujin? Nina. 16481 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Oct 27, 2002 7:52am Subject: Re: [dsg]luminous, pure (pandaram) Dear Sarah, Jim, Suan and all, We studied with Jim and Suan (having such a good time) the text about citta which is luminous or resplendent, pabhassara, namely the bhavangacitta, which is called defiled because of the upakilesas arising afterwards.(ANI, 51-52, and co, and subco). The good parents and teachers (bhavangacitta) get a bad name because of the naughty children (defilements): In the Co to the Path of Discrimination, Understanding of Mindfulness Workers (satokari ~naa.na), definitions of citta have been given, hadaya,heart, etc. One of these is phandara.m, pure: Remarks: still question marks, I would appreciate suggestions. I did not understand the simile of the Gnages river, maybe what is water of that river is just water of that river, it cannot be changed. Citta has as its task just knowing an object, citta itself is not defilement. This helps us too to understand that citta is an inner ayatana and cetasikas are outer ayatana. We have to separate their characteristics. Could Rob K. perhaps take this up again? Nina. op 25-09-2002 15:49 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > > 1. Citta, vi~n~nana and mano > =========================== > These all refer to consciousness in different contexts. In the Atthasalini > transl (PTS p 185f) we read about citta being used to refer to the > ‘variegated nature’ of consciousness, mano being used to stress the > knowing of the ‘measure’ of an object and vinnana is used when referring > to the khandhas. There is no ‘store-consciousness. 16482 From: Date: Sun Oct 27, 2002 3:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Elements of Thinking/Contemplation in Vipassana Bhavana Hi, Jon - In a message dated 10/27/02 4:04:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Howard > > If I understand you correctly, Howard, you are saying > that at less developed levels of understanding there > must be a limiting/choosing of the object, while at > more developed levels the limiting/choosing drops > away. > > I know this is a common perception among those who > follow a ‘directed attention’ strategy, but I believe > it may be a questionable approach. If > ‘limiting/choosing’ the object is not what the Buddha > in fact taught, then this practice could never lead to > right understanding. > > I do believe it’s possible from the beginning for > there to be awareness that arises without any limiting > or choosing of the object of awareness. > > Jon > ========================= Jon, what you say here confuses me. It seems to be the exact *opposite* of what you wrote below. And you seem to be interpreting what I am saying as the exact opposite of what I mean as well. You said the following: *********************** Howard In your post below you say of 'informal meditation': <> “Seeingâ€? here is another word for “attending toâ€?. But if you think about it, there cannot be “attending toâ€? something without a clear idea of what the “somethingâ€? is. Even when we call it “whatever arisesâ€?, there has to be an idea of what that might possibly be, and so there is, in effect, it seems to me, a specifying or limiting of the object at that moment of directed attention. Jon ********************************* In fact, it was exactly my point that it *is* possible to be aware of simply whatever arises, without preselection or limi tation. My point was that it is possible by means of a trained readiness of mind and attention to be mindful and clearly comprehending of whatever should happen to arise at any moment. However, it is more difficult for the untrained mind to do this than the trained mind. That's all. With metta, Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, Jon - > > > >In a message dated 10/19/02 8:10:58 AM Eastern > >Daylight Time, > >jonoabb@y... writes: > > > >>Howard > >> > >>In your post below you say of 'informal > >meditation': > >>< >arises clearly without > >>"getting > >>lost".>> > >> > >>“Seeingâ€? here is another word for “attending > >toâ€?. But if you think about > >>it, there cannot be “attending toâ€? something > >without a clear idea of what > >>the “somethingâ€? is. Even when we call it > >“whatever arisesâ€?, there has to > >>be an idea of what that might possibly be, and so > >there is, in effect, it > >>seems to me, a specifying or limiting of the > >object at that moment of > >>directed attention. > >> > >>Jon > >> > >======================= > > For you and me this is so, very much so. The > >more advanced and adept > >we become, the less true I believe it is. > > > >With metta, > >Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16483 From: Date: Sun Oct 27, 2002 9:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] ekayana, summary Dear Jim, Please don't go into seclusion. We need you. It appears that you, Sarah, Nina, and I are the only ones actually engaging this sutta. Nina is stubborn, Sarah is defensive, and I am impulsive and abrasive. You are the only level headed one among us. This sutta and commentary is arguably the most important in the entire exegetical corpus. It is up to us to shoulder the burden and try to bring to light as much clear understanding as we possibly can. This work could be beneficial to countless beings throughout the ages even if we miss here and there. Don't let this precious opportunity pass; it may not arise again for many lifetimes. DON'T GO JIM! Larry 16484 From: Date: Sun Oct 27, 2002 11:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation and Satipatthana Hi Jon, In response to my statement, "I think the commentary points out that there are different ways of understanding satipatthana.", you wrote, "I'm not sure what part of the commentary you have in mind here – do you have a reference?" I've kind of lost track of what we were talking about but I probably had in mind something like the 4 satipatthana that break down into the 21 practices plus the 5, or so, ways of understanding "one" (eka) and the, at least, 2 ways of understanding "way" (yana). I think what I was trying to get you to say is something like this, "I would not regard these factors as 'ways of arousing mindfulness', but this may be more a difference of terminology than of substance." That's close enough for me. Thanks. Larry 16485 From: robmoult Date: Sun Oct 27, 2002 1:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Questions for Nina (or others) Hi Nina, Thanks for your understanding on my tardiness. --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > In your book on Conditional Relations (Page 24), you > > say, "The "Atthasalini" (Expositor II, Book II, Part I, Ch > > III,333,334) explains that the rupas which can be experienced > > through the senses become objects "by virtue of deliberate > > inclination" or "by virtue of intrusion". > > > > Is it correct to say that rupas that become objects "by virtue of > > deliberate inclination" are prompted (sankharika) and that the mind > > shifts to them "by one's wish" (see Page 25 of your text)? Is it > > therefore also correct to say that rupas that become objects "by > > virtue of intrusion" are unprompted (asankharika) and that the mind > > shifts to them due to "the excess of the new object (again Page 25 > > of your text)? > N: we cannot call rupas prompted and unprompted, this is only for cittas and > cetasikas. Depending on accumulated inclinations cittas can be prompted or > unprompted. Rupas are not accumulated and they do not accumulate, they do > not know anything. I am still confused. I appreciate that rupas cannot be prompted, but I took the term "deliberate inclination" to refer to the citta which takes the rupa as object. Your book reads: ... the rupas which can be experienced through the senses become objects "by virtue of deliberate inclination" or "by virtue of inclusion". Is it correct for me to summarize this as: Rupas which can be sensed can become objects by virtue of deliberate inclination (prompted) or by virtue of intrusion (unprompted). Thanks, Rob M :-) 16486 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Oct 27, 2002 2:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Your duty is the contemplation" Larry The 3 quotes from the sutta you mention here refer to the goal or outcome of the development of satipatthana, and the commentarial passages are likewise descriptions or elaborations of those goals/outcomes. They do not I think describe the development of satipatthana itself. Thus, for example, the term ‘purification of beings’ refers to the abandoning of the taints (not, the purification of beings is to be achieved by abandoning the taints). The *means to* the purification of beings is the development of satipatthana as found in the body of the sutta – see the opening and closing words of the sutta ("This is the only way, O bhikkhus, for the purification of beings, …”). So I don’t think we can really draw any particular conclusions about the nature of satipatthana itself just from these descriptions. Jon --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > "This is the only way, o bhikkhus, for the > purfication of beings, for > the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, for the > destruction of > suffering and grief..." > > Hi Jon, I think the commentary on these words > relates to our discussion. > > FOR THE PURIFUICATION OF BEINGS: Purification is > achieved by abandoning > the taints (sensual desire, desire for permanent > being, views, and > ignorance). I understand from Num's comments on Psm. > that ignorance (and > views) are also manifestations of desire. How this > abandoning comes > about is as it may be, but I think for many people > the discipline of > formal practice prompts understanding (panna). > > FOR THE OVERCOMING OF SORROW AND LAMENTATION: Here > analytical knowledge > or understanding spontaneously arose upon hearing a > verse. The tika says > this could not have happened without the previous > development of wisdom > (panna) through contemplating form, feeling, > consciousness or dhammas. > This suggests to me that satipatthana is more > contemplative than I > thought, but I still would be averse to thinking of > it as academic or > scholarly. > > FOR THE DESTRUCTION OF SUFFERING AND GRIEF: Here > extreme physical pain > is suppressed and insight is developed. This also > seems to depend on > previous discipline and contemplation. > > L: So I guess my 'feel' for the contemplative nature > of satipatthana is > expanded to include both ongoing contemplation and a > moment's insight, > but I think the develpment of purity by abandoning > desires is a good > element to bring to the bavana. I notice the desire > to understand isn't > a taint but I don't exactly see why not. I would > think all desire is > ultimately based on a 'self' view. Maybe desire to > understand is > included in the views taint. If so, where does that > leave the practice? > Let go of the desire to understand but continue to > contemplate? > > Larry 16487 From: Date: Sun Oct 27, 2002 4:50pm Subject: Way 17, Comm "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera Continuing commentary on, [why] "the Four Arousings of Mindfulness" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html Or it may be said that these Four Arousings of Mindfulness are taught for casting out the illusions [vipallasa] concerning beauty, pleasure, permanence, and an ego. The body is ugly. There are people led astray by the illusion that it is a thing of beauty. In order to show such people the ugliness of the body and to make them give up their wrong idea, the First Arousing of Mindfulness is taught. Feeling is suffering. There are people subject to the illusion that it gives pleasure. In order to show such people the painfulness of feeling and to make them give up their wrong idea, the Second Arousing of Mindfulness is taught. Consciousness is impermanent. There are people who, owing to an illusion, believe that it is permanent. To show them the impermanence of consciousness and to wean them of their wrong belief, the Third Arousing of Mindfulness is taught. Mental objects are insubstantial, are soulless, and possess no entity. There are people who believe by reason of an illusion that these mental things are substantial, endowed with an abiding core, or a soul, or that they form part of a soul, an ego or some substance that abides. To convince such errant folk of the fact of the soullessness or the insubstantiality of mental things and to destroy the illusion which clouds their minds, the Fourth Arousing of Mindfulness is taught. 16488 From: Date: Sun Oct 27, 2002 5:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "Your duty is the contemplation" Hi Jon, I think my point was that there is more contemplation involved in satipatthana than I thought. This must relate to the recollection of the dhamma aspect of 'sati'. But you are correct in saying that abandoning desires isn't spelled out as part of satipatthana, at least not in the quotes I gave. I accidentally infered that from my own experience. Interestingly one question I raised concerning abandoning desire in general and the desire to understand in particular was answered, at least partially, when I stumbled across something in CMA concerning 'chanda' (desire to do) which is different from lobha (greed or lust). Chanda is ethically variable, so it can be either kusala or akusala, and could accompany sati. Larry 16489 From: Date: Sun Oct 27, 2002 5:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 17, Comm "To convince such errant folk of the fact of the soullessness or the insubstantiality of mental things and to destroy the illusion which clouds their minds, the Fourth Arousing of Mindfulness is taught." Hi all, I find it remarkable that it is emphasized again that dhammanupassana is taught to destroy the illusion of self. I can hardly wait to find out what is going on with this. Larry 16490 From: Date: Sun Oct 27, 2002 2:48pm Subject: Ugliness (Re: [dsg] Way 17, Comm) Hi, Larry - As part of the following there is: "The body is ugly. There are people led astray by the illusion that it is a thing of beauty. In order to show such people the ugliness of the body and to make them give up their wrong idea, the First Arousing of Mindfulness is taught." As far as I'm concerned, saying that the body is ugly is nonsense. It may, under some circumstances be seen as ugly, and under other circumstances as lovely. This is all in the mind. The reality is that the body is just so. It is as it is. It is a conceptual composite of dhammas, of mutliple experienced phenomena. Pointing out that there is decay in the body, that there are fluids that may not seem pleasant, that there are odors that are experienced as unpleasant - all that, is merely corrective skillful means to lessen our tendency to crave the body, to cling to it, to adore it. But the body is not objectively ugly, and aversion is no better than craving. With metta, Howard In a message dated 10/27/02 7:51:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera > > Continuing commentary on, [why] "the Four Arousings of Mindfulness" > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html > > Or it may be said that these Four Arousings of Mindfulness are taught > for casting out the illusions [vipallasa] concerning beauty, pleasure, > permanence, and an ego. > > The body is ugly. There are people led astray by the illusion that it is > a thing of beauty. In order to show such people the ugliness of the body > and to make them give up their wrong idea, the First Arousing of > Mindfulness is taught. > > Feeling is suffering. There are people subject to the illusion that it > gives pleasure. In order to show such people the painfulness of feeling > and to make them give up their wrong idea, the Second Arousing of > Mindfulness is taught. > > Consciousness is impermanent. There are people who, owing to an > illusion, believe that it is permanent. To show them the impermanence of > consciousness and to wean them of their wrong belief, the Third Arousing > of Mindfulness is taught. > > Mental objects are insubstantial, are soulless, and possess no entity. > There are people who believe by reason of an illusion that these mental > things are substantial, endowed with an abiding core, or a soul, or that > they form part of a soul, an ego or some substance that abides. To > convince such errant folk of the fact of the soullessness or the > insubstantiality of mental things and to destroy the illusion which > clouds their minds, the Fourth Arousing of Mindfulness is taught. > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16491 From: Date: Sun Oct 27, 2002 8:41pm Subject: Re: Ugliness (Re: [dsg] Way 17, Comm) Hi Howard, I think I generally agree with you, but I'm not sure if the Buddha would. I think he would say aversion and disgust are better than delight. I seem to vaguely recall getting that impression from many suttas. I don't think there is a real question of whether the body is objectively ugly. Certainly the cemetery meditations are meant to inspire disgust but I don't see how mindfulness of breath or body movement would, unless additional concepts were brought to bear. The main thrust of the argument seems to be to disengage attachment to the body which is really a new tack for me as far as my own practice goes. More and more I'm coming to appreciate that "sati" really means recollection of Buddhadhamma. What sati most generally recollects when practicing satipatthana is mindfulness (sampajanna) but it could well recollect other aspects of the Dhamma such as whatever might inspire nonattachment. Where have you been? We've missed you. Larry 16492 From: Date: Sun Oct 27, 2002 4:34pm Subject: Re: Ugliness (Re: [dsg] Way 17, Comm) Hi, Larry - In a message dated 10/27/02 11:41:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > I think I generally agree with you, but I'm not sure if the Buddha > would. I think he would say aversion and disgust are better than > delight. I seem to vaguely recall getting that impression from many > suttas. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Could be. I guess the point is that neither is any good! ;-)) ------------------------------------------------ I don't think there is a real question of whether the body is> > objectively ugly. > > Certainly the cemetery meditations are meant to inspire disgust but I > don't see how mindfulness of breath or body movement would, unless > additional concepts were brought to bear. The main thrust of the > argument seems to be to disengage attachment to the body which is > really a new tack for me as far as my own practice goes. > > More and more I'm coming to appreciate that "sati" really means > recollection of Buddhadhamma. What sati most generally recollects when > practicing satipatthana is mindfulness (sampajanna) but it could well > recollect other aspects of the Dhamma such as whatever might inspire > nonattachment. > > Where have you been? We've missed you. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Thank you! That's very nice to hear. Well, I posted a couple today, and I posted once two days ago. The problem is that I'm a moderator of another list on which there have been some recent problems which were quite demanding and called for considerable attention on my part. --------------------------------------------- > > Larry > ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16493 From: Purnomo . Date: Sun Oct 27, 2002 10:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] cryology >From: "Purnomo ." >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [dsg] cryology >Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 06:48:55 +0000 > >dear friends, > >have you known about a dog for some days was frozen ? we must think that >the >dog was died. But, it wasn't. After the dog was processed so its >temperature >normal, it is life. Until now the dog is life. And now a child have been >trying to proof of cryology theory. > >is it possible a man keep living in a temperature when his blood wasn't >bleeding ? > >please see article about cryology in >http://www.science-tech.nmstc.ca/english/schoolzone/Info_Science2.cfm > > >metta, > >purnomo > > 16494 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sun Oct 27, 2002 10:43pm Subject: Re: "Your duty is the contemplation" Hi Larry. I am jumping in here after an absence, and may have to jump right back out again, but I am intrigued by this discussion of sati. It seems to me that mindfulness must take place in the moment and must not be dependent upon a thought process. Otherwise it would be an intellectual or conceptual realization rather than a real awareness of the object of consciousness. I see mindfulness as a direct understanding of that which is perceived in the moment and therefore it must accompany and be part of the moment itself. Any other properties that may follow upon it would have to be secondary results and not the sati itself. I don't know if this is either redundant or misinformed, but I'd be interested in your [and Howard's] response. Best, Robert Ep. ======================================= --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Jon, > > I think my point was that there is more contemplation involved in > satipatthana than I thought. This must relate to the recollection of the > dhamma aspect of 'sati'. But you are correct in saying that abandoning > desires isn't spelled out as part of satipatthana, at least not in the > quotes I gave. I accidentally infered that from my own experience. > > Interestingly one question I raised concerning abandoning desire in > general and the desire to understand in particular was answered, at > least partially, when I stumbled across something in CMA concerning > 'chanda' (desire to do) which is different from lobha (greed or lust). > Chanda is ethically variable, so it can be either kusala or akusala, and > could accompany sati. > > Larry 16495 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sun Oct 27, 2002 10:50pm Subject: Re: Way 17, Comm Again, it would seem to me, perhaps ignorantly, that the arousing of mindfulness cannot have the purpose of seeing the negative qualities of the objects of mindfulness, but to see them 'as they are'. One cannot merely see them 'as they are' and also see them as objects of distaste at the same time. Moreover it seems to me that the illusions one would be seeing and 'casting out' are objects of 'aversion'. Is it good to promote aversion? I understand that aversion is merely the opposite side of the coin of attachment. If this is the case, it would be better to practice pure mindfulness that sees things 'in their pure immediacy' without any appelations, either good or bad, since such appelations are undoubtedly bound to be concepts. And mindfulness reveals the actuality of the object in the moment, not merely another version of its conceptual formation. If mindfulness sees the momentary arising of reality in its purity without adding appelations or conceptual constructs of any kind -- which is what I see as mindfulness -- then it will not be necessary to cast anything aside, for no accompanying illusory definitions of what arises will be present, not in a true moment of mindfulness. Therefore, mindfulness is not a means to an end, it is the vehicle but also guarantees the result. When mindfulness is present, then knowledge of the object and not illusion must also be present, and there can be no delusion about what is perceived in that moment. Interested if you think I am off the mark here. Robert Ep. ======================= --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera > > Continuing commentary on, [why] "the Four Arousings of Mindfulness" > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html > > Or it may be said that these Four Arousings of Mindfulness are taught > for casting out the illusions [vipallasa] concerning beauty, pleasure, > permanence, and an ego. > > The body is ugly. There are people led astray by the illusion that it is > a thing of beauty. In order to show such people the ugliness of the body > and to make them give up their wrong idea, the First Arousing of > Mindfulness is taught. > > Feeling is suffering. There are people subject to the illusion that it > gives pleasure. In order to show such people the painfulness of feeling > and to make them give up their wrong idea, the Second Arousing of > Mindfulness is taught. > > Consciousness is impermanent. There are people who, owing to an > illusion, believe that it is permanent. To show them the impermanence of > consciousness and to wean them of their wrong belief, the Third Arousing > of Mindfulness is taught. > > Mental objects are insubstantial, are soulless, and possess no entity. > There are people who believe by reason of an illusion that these mental > things are substantial, endowed with an abiding core, or a soul, or that > they form part of a soul, an ego or some substance that abides. To > convince such errant folk of the fact of the soullessness or the > insubstantiality of mental things and to destroy the illusion which > clouds their minds, the Fourth Arousing of Mindfulness is taught. 16496 From: Sarah Date: Sun Oct 27, 2002 11:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg]luminous, pure (pandaram) Dear Nina & All, --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > In the Co to the Path of Discrimination, Understanding of Mindfulness > Workers (satokari ~naa.na), definitions of citta have been given, > hadaya,heart, etc. One of these is phandara.m, pure: ..... As we discussed before, pandaram is not synonymous with pabhassara.In Pali, I believe the meaning is quite different. You may like to review Jaran’s and my posts from our discussions in Bkk when we pulled out all the relevant texts: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m6522.html http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m6682.html I remember Suan also gave a helpful translation which will be in Useful Posts under ‘luminous’ (I couldn’t find it just now in escribe): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup So I understand pandaram is sometimes used as a definition of citta as you say. ..... > because the upakilesas (N:defilements arising with the citta) which go > to > it, citta becomes defiled. Even akusala citta is called pandara.m > because > akusala comes (N:comes after?) from that citta (N:bhavangacitta?). > Just > as > the Ganges river streams from the Ganges river... (N: ?). The reason is > that > the characteristic of citta is experiencing an object, and thus it is > not > defiled by upakilesas, and citta is by nature (sabhava) pure. When it is > accompanied by upakilesas which defile it, it is still called pandara.m, > pure.> ..... I wrote before :“I understand the reason that all cittas are considered ‘pandaram’ is because they ‘spring’ from the bhavanga cittas....” This is like rivers flow from a source, collecting impurities as they flow on. The last sentence you write/translate above is just as we discussed. From my earlier post: “4) Pandaram sometimes refers to bhavanga cittas and kusala citta only: In the Atthasalini reference given several times (Atth, 140,)where it says “cittas are pandara meaning pure. pandara refers to bhavanga cittas.....”, we found there was an extra line in the Thai translation not included in the PTS translation and this follows the Pali: “ ‘O Monks, cittas are pure, but they become tainted with upakilesa that come in, thus.’ Kusala cittas are pandara since they come from cittas (i.e. bhavanga cittas) like the Ganges river flows from the (source of) the Ganges river and the Godhaavarii river flows from the Godhaavarii river.” (Jaran’s transl.)” ***** > Remarks: still question marks, I would appreciate suggestions. I did not > understand the simile of the Gnages river, maybe what is water of that > river > is just water of that river, it cannot be changed. Citta has as its task > just knowing an object, citta itself is not defilement. This helps us > too to > understand that citta is an inner ayatana and cetasikas are outer > ayatana. > We have to separate their characteristics. ..... Just so, I think. K.Sujin stressed this point about citta. I understand the water becomes tainted, like the gold in the other sutta which Jaran refers to. From Jaran’s account of the same discussions: ..... “According to a pali expert and A. Sujin, the word 'luminous' (in thai "bo-ri-suth") is from two different pali words: pandara and pabhassara. Pandara is refers to all cittas, wholesome, unwholesome, vipaka, bhavanga, kiriya because it is another name (of 11 or 13 names) of citta. Citta has many names because it can be consider in many different ways (aspects or nayas). Cittas are pandara because they are intrinsically pure (compared other dhammas such as cetasikas).” ..... Also from Jaran’s post: ..... “1. From Commentary dhamasa.mga.niiva.n.nanaa cittuppaataka.n.thava.n.nanaa, it says: In nittesavara, cakkhuvi~n~naana is said to be pandara because of its base, kusala citta is pandara because itself is pure, akusala citta is pandara because it 'flows' (comes) from bhavanga citta (which is pure, in the human realm), and all vipaka cittas are pure because of their bases (like that of cakkhuvi~n~naana). Here pandara refers to all cittas because pandara is one of more than 10 _definitions_ of citta. Above only emphasizes that cittas are pure (compared to cetasikas) in many different ways, and akusala cittas are pure because they come from pure bhavanga cittas.” ***** Jaran gave many more helpful details in his post referred to. I also liked his conclusion given in part here: “We try very hard to interprete all the passages in this 84000 verses so that they are ALL in 100 % agreement. A. Sujin always says that it is almost impossible to do unless the reader understands what's the purpose of the passage and to whom it was intended, and it is impossible to know all that. Therefore, she said never take one passage (or part of it) and interprete it literally and hold on to that interpetation. More importantly, she said one should know one's own limit of understanding....” ***** I hope Suan, Rob K, Jaran or Jim will add more. Also, Rob Ep, remember this is your favourite topic;-) Sarah ====== 16497 From: Sarah Date: Sun Oct 27, 2002 11:47pm Subject: Way- Rob Ep, we need you;-) Hi Rob Ep, A pleasant surprise to see your posts on the Way just as I was thinking of you (see the latest luminous thread;-)). --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Hi Larry. > I am jumping in here after an absence, and may have to jump right back > out again, but I am intrigued by this discussion of sati. ..... Good that you’re ‘intrigued’, not good that you’re already thinking of jumping out again. We’d all be glad to have you hang around longer. As it is, Larry is complaining about the present active members in the ‘Way’ corner, apart from Jim who is also giving some ‘seclusion’ signals: Larry wrote: “Nina is stubborn, Sarah is defensive, and I am impulsive and abrasive.” ..... Now he may be what he says, but of course Nina is not stubborn and I’m never defensive. What us? Whatever gave him that idea? Patient and consistent, that’s us!!;-)) Seriously, we’ll be glad for any moral or other support from you and Howard in the corner and Larry, I hope your post has encouraged Jim with its kind comments. Rob (& also Victor), I’m very glad indeed that life has returned to normal in Washington D.C. and Emmy can go to play school without the extra anxieties which none of us need to learn about dukkha. The homeroom teacher of two of my students was killed in the Bali blast. His wife, also a teacher at the same school in Hong Kong, went to have dinner with her sister and left him drinking with his friends. I had a little helpful discussion with my students as a result, anyway. Sarah ====== 16498 From: Sarah Date: Mon Oct 28, 2002 1:50am Subject: All Creatures Frail or Firm... Hi Chris and All. --- christine_forsyth wrote: >I was asking in a garbled way why there were different > values given to a living process of cittas and cetasikas, dependent > on size, outer form and perceived virtue ... it doesn't seem logical > to have an Order of Precedence. Either All Beings are important or > none are. Given the doctrine of Anatta - "none" would seem a more > consistent answer - but my heart votes for "All". ..... I gave some quotes from the commentary to the Khuddakapatha yesterday which has been discussed with regard to the complexity of kamma. This always relates to the mental states of the ‘instigator’ but will be conditioned by many factors, as will the results of the kamma. The text also contains the commentary to the Metta discourse with a wealth of useful information I’d quite forgotten about, though this used to be one of my favourite and most often referred to texts;-). Without detailed commentary notes, it’s so easy to misunderstand this sutta. To give an example: We read: “Whatever breathing beings there are, No matter whether frail or firm, With none excepted......” ..... what do frail or firm mean? “Herein they thirst (tasanti), thus they are frail (tasaa); this is a designation for those with craving and for those with fear. They stand (ti.t.thanti), thus they are firm (thaavaraa); this is a designation for Arahants, who have abandoned craving and fear. There is no one of them that is an exception, thus they are ‘with none excepted (anavasesaa); all, is what is meant.” ***** We read about how the monks involved were already ‘with skill in good’, referring to ‘being established in virtue’ and with highly developed samatha and vipassana. They were ready to attain metta jhana and maintain metta ‘unboundedly (aparimaa.na.m) by means of the object consisting of boundless creatures or by means of remainderless extension in a single being’. The ‘lovingkindness jhana mindfulness’ is ‘pursued’ in all positions - standing, walking, sitting and lying down. What I find interesting in the context of recent discussions, are the following lines from the commentary on the last stanza of the verse: “...And now, since loving kindness in near to (wrong) view of self because it has creatures for its object, he therefore completed the teaching with the following stanza: ‘But he that traffics not with views (Is virtuous with perfected seeing Till, purged of greed for sense-desires, He will surely come no more to any womb.’ He did this as a preventative against (their straying into) the thicket of (speculative) views (see MNi,8) by showing those bhikkhus how the Noble Plane is reached through making that same loving kindness jhana the basis for insight.” ***** Comment: this reminds me of Nina’s series of posts on anapanasati. Whatever level of jhana is attained, still the various paramattha dhammas (absolute realities) have to be the object of insight and the development of insight is always the goal. ..... The commentary continues: “The meaning is this. After emerging from the abiding in loving kindness jhana, which was specified thus ‘This is Divine Abiding here, they say’, (he discerns) the (non-material-form ideas there (in that jhana) consisting in thinking(vitakka) and exploring(vicara) and the rest(piti, sukha, cittas’ekaggata), (which he defines as ‘name’(namas), he discerns the ideas of (material) form there, which he defines as ‘form’(rupas).By means of this delimitation of name and form (nama and rupa) ‘he traffics not with views’(di.t.thi.n ca anupagamma), (avoiding that by discerning) in the way stated thus ‘A heap of mere determinations; No creature can be found herein’ (Si,135), till he eventually becomes virtuous (siilavaa) with the kind of virtue that is supramundane since he is now perfected (sampanno) in the right view belonging to the Path of Stream Entry, which is called seeing (dassanena), and which is associated with that supramundane virtue. After that.......he reaches Arahantship and attains extinction.” Later we read “There the bhikkhus maintained loving kindeness in being, and making that the basis, they established insight (into the three general characteristics of impermanence, suffering, and not-self) till all of them reached Arahantship, the highest fruit, in that same Rains, and they were able to hold the Pavarana Ceremony in purity.” ***** We learn about and need to develop all kinds of kusala (wholesomeness), but the highest or purest are moments of satipatthana when namas and rupas are discerned as not-self. Sarah ====== 16499 From: Date: Mon Oct 28, 2002 6:47am Subject: Re: Ugliness (Re: [dsg] Way 17, Comm) Hi Howard, A quick thought before I dash to work. Considering that the body is objectively, or ultimately, neither ugly nor beautiful is mindfulness of body form in mindfulness of dhamma mode. Larry 16500 From: Date: Mon Oct 28, 2002 2:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation" Hi, Rob (and Larry) - I think each of you is right in some respects and wrong in some respects. When Larry writes "I think my point was that there is more contemplation involved in satipatthana than I thought.", I agree that in at least part of the insight cultivation discussed in the Satipatthana Sutta, thinking is crucially involved, mostly in the 1st foundation. When you write that mindfulness occurs in the moment, I agree. (However, periods of thinking that one should remain mindful are conditions, I believe, for the arising of sati.) I do not, however, see sati as a direct understanding. To some extent, sampaja~n~na (clear comprehension) is that, and that often occurs together with sati, but only pa~n~na is fully a clear and direct comprehension. I see sati as "merely" the operation of precisely attending to what is present, or, negatively, not getting mentally "lost". With metta, Howard In a message dated 10/28/02 1:44:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, epsteinrob@Y... writes: > > Hi Larry. > I am jumping in here after an absence, and may have to jump right back > out again, but I am intrigued by this discussion of sati. It seems to > me that mindfulness must take place in the moment and must not be > dependent upon a thought process. Otherwise it would be an > intellectual or conceptual realization rather than a real awareness of > the object of consciousness. > > I see mindfulness as a direct understanding of that which is perceived > in the moment and therefore it must accompany and be part of the moment > itself. Any other properties that may follow upon it would have to be > secondary results and not the sati itself. > > I don't know if this is either redundant or misinformed, but I'd be > interested in your [and Howard's] response. > > Best, > Robert Ep. > > ======================================= > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > >Hi Jon, > > > >I think my point was that there is more contemplation involved in > >satipatthana than I thought. This must relate to the recollection of the > >dhamma aspect of 'sati'. But you are correct in saying that abandoning > >desires isn't spelled out as part of satipatthana, at least not in the > >quotes I gave. I accidentally infered that from my own experience. > > > >Interestingly one question I raised concerning abandoning desire in > >general and the desire to understand in particular was answered, at > >least partially, when I stumbled across something in CMA concerning > >'chanda' (desire to do) which is different from lobha (greed or lust). > >Chanda is ethically variable, so it can be either kusala or akusala, and > >could accompany sati. > > > >Larry > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16501 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 28, 2002 10:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] temperaments Dear Larry and all, Thank you very much Larry, to give all the texts about different temperaments. Now I quote from . The patriarch of Cambodia, in the main temple of Phom Phen, asked A. Sujin about the different temperaments: End quote. N: I just heard on tape that satipatthana is not *doing* something, and that one should begin to understand the characteristics of nama and rupa that appear. Sound may appear, you do not have to think: now I should be aware of the rupa of sound which is included in Mindfulness of Dhammas, rupakkhandha. Or hearing arises and performs its function of hearing, not a self who hears. We do not have to think, now I have to be aware of the citta which hears, included in Mindfulness of Citta. Also with regard to the perversions, the Commentary indicates which of the different Applications are helpful for the elimination of which perversion. We have all the perversions, and thus we need all four Applications of Mindfulness. I believe that selecting of objects is contraproductive. Nina. Larry: For the dull-witted man > of craving type the Arousing of Mindfulness through the contemplation of > the gross physical body is the Path to Purity; for the keen-witted of > this type, the subtle subject of meditation on the feeling. And for the > dull-witted man of the theorizing type the Path to Purity is the > Arousing of Mindfulness through a subject not too full of distinctions, > namely, consciousness [citta]; for the keen-witted of this type, the > subject which teems with distinctions, namely the contemplation on > things of the mind -- mental objects [dhammanupassana]. 16502 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 28, 2002 10:02am Subject: Perfections, Ch 6, Energy, no 11 Perfections, Ch 6, Energy, no 11 As we read in the ³Anumana Sutta²: If, your reverences, while the monk is reflecting, he knows thus: ³I am of evil desires, in the thrall of evil desires,² then, your reverences, that monk should strive to get rid of those evil, unskilled states. But if, your reverences, that monk, while reflecting, knows thus: ³I am not of evil desires, not in the thrall of evil desires², then he should abide with rapture and delight, training himself diligently day and night in skilled states. We should study with awareness the characteristics of realities as they naturally appear. It depends on conditions what degree of sati sampajañña arises, it may be of the degree of merely reflecting on the akusala that one has committed during the day, or it may be of the degree of immediate awareness of whatever reality appears. Some people who develop satipatthåna may desire a result of their practice. They are striving with all their energy, because they believe that in this way the result of their practice will materialize quickly. However, since they are trying very hard they become tired and they have to stop doing so. The result of the development of satipatthåna cannot be made to occur soon. The development of satipaììhåna is awareness of the characteristics of realities as they naturally appear in daily life, and only in this way can they be understood as anattå. If one is expecting a result of one¹s practice and tries to hasten its arising, it is not the development of satipatthåna. A person of about eighty years old who had listened to Dhamma lectures at different places deeply considered the development of satipatthåna. Although he was an elderly person, he was full of energy to listen to the Dhamma and to consider what he had heard. When he heard a radio program on the introduction to vipassanå, he wrote down the address of the ³Dhamma Study and Support Foundation² and made an effort to go to the Foundation in order to perform kusala by offering a donation. He left his house at nine in the morning and arrived at the Foundation at two in the afternoon. Here we see the viriya of an elderly person who spent such a long time to reach the Foundation, who had no time for lunch and had to exert himself in many different ways. The perfection of viriya should be developed in daily life. In the performing of kusala, viriya is essential, because one should go against the current of akusala, against the stream of attachment to comfort and well-being, and in this way kusala can be accomplished. If one develops satipatthåna in daily life and paññå which knows the characteristics of realities has been further developed, there will be the right conditions for the realization of the four noble Truths. When the right conditions are present, the result will naturally occur and this is not difficult. However, the conditions leading to this result are difficult to develop: one should gradually consider and study with awareness the characteristics of nåma and rúpa, as they appear through the sense-doors and the mind-door. This is a very gradual process, and there should be viriya, energy, to be aware again and again, to be aware very often, since this is the only way for paññå to be able to penetrate the arising and falling away of the characteristics of nåma and rúpa. At this very moment realities are arising and falling away, but if there is no study with awareness and if one does not begin to understand the characteristics of nåma dhammas and rúpa dhammas, it will not be possible to realize the arising and falling away of dhammas. The cause which can bring such a result has to be developed time and again, life after life. 16503 From: forsyth_1981 Date: Mon Oct 28, 2002 2:51pm Subject: Home again, changes, plus Tom Hello everyone, plus Tom, I'm glad to see someone else with a relative on the list, Tom. I'm Christine's daughter, Sarah F. I was in London in mid September for a few days catching up with high school friends. After that I went to the US to see friends who had been exchange students at Uni. of Queensland. Now I'm back home in Brisbane again. I'm slowly finishing an IT degree. I work part-time for my Dad here in Brisbane and very occasionally in Hong Kong and Darwin. How about you Tom? Have you finished studying yet? Do you live in London? I usually 'lurk' and hardly ever post to the List, but I thought I'd say g'day. I'm enjoying the 'animals and insects' thread - I agree with kindness and not harming. Though I think animals have the ability to do 'bad' and 'good' actions, not only be prisoners of instinct. The 'bad' is mainly abusing power (like humans). I can remember when I was 'playgroup' age and it was Mum's turn to have it at our place - our goose and gander (who were as tall as we three and four year olds) stalked and ambushed the kids while the mothers' were having a cup of tea inside. There was screaming pandamonium. (both kids and mothers!). The geese were as tall or taller than us with huge wing spans and deafening trumpetings, and seemed to flap and peck and honk just for the fun of creating chaos. Life is a bit strange since I came back to Brisbane. Nothing seems the same as before I left. I was only away a month, so it hasn't really changed that much. I seem to be different and have grown apart from many of my friends. I don't think they've noticed though. I mention this because I read buddhism teaches that everything changes, all the time, so maybe that means 'inside' a person - feelings, attitudes - as well as 'outside' - others, events, things? On the brighter side, at least the bad things don't hang around. Like end of Semester exams and no social life! I've only read a little on Buddhism so far, but I can see parts in my own day to day life where it makes sense. Mum is going to loan me 'Buddhism in Daily Life' by Nina van Gorkom after the exams, as I'll be working up in Darwin for a couple of weeks. Bye for now, Sarah F 16504 From: Date: Mon Oct 28, 2002 5:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation" Hi Rob, I pretty much agree with you about the conventional understanding of sati but I was basing my comments about the contemplative nature of satipatthana on the commentary on the first few lines of the satipatthana sutta. We haven't really gotten to the clear comprehension aspect yet. I would definitely recommend that you read this slowly and carefully. As I say, it is certainly changing my understanding of satipatthana. For some good research into the meaning of "sati" see Rob Moult's email http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/16007 This brings out the ethical and 'recollection' aspect of sati which is also something new (to me). Also, here is a good essay by Ven. Dhammavuddho Thero which I just read. It gives a similar treatment. http://www.thebuddhistsociety.org.uk/sama_sati_02.htm Ven. Dhammavuddho renders 'mindfulness' as sampajanna and 'sati' as recollection.We haven't gotten to sampajanna yet in the commentary, so I can't say very much about it except that it's starting to look like sati remembers to be mindful among other things. As for the debate on whether concepts are present during satipatthana, I think that is pretty much a dead issue. Although others may disagree. The intention behind saying concepts are not an object of satipatthana is meant to bring one into the present moment, rather than lost in thought. I completely agree with this but it also seems obvious to me that concepts are part of every citta process on the level of mundane experience. Beside that the object of jhana is a concept and jhana is an object of satipatthana plus nibbana as part of the 4 noble truths is a concept when they are an object of satipatthana because satipatthana is a mundane path (pre-nibbana). And really the whole tenor of the synopsis section of the commentary makes it clear, to me at least, that satipatthana is not only attentive and 'in the moment' but is concerned with basic conceptual issues of the Buddhadhamma. Not to mention that the basic knowledge of panna, the 3 characteristics, (anicca, dukkha, anatta) are all concepts. So concepts are all over the place. But they aren't real; that's the main point. Hope you stick around and are able to catch up on some of this reading. Best wishes, Larry 16505 From: Date: Mon Oct 28, 2002 6:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] temperaments Hi Nina, I disagree. I think the selecting of an object can be very useful. Even the Kuru washer women would ask, "which arousing of mindfulness do you cultivate, dearie". But if you are satisfied with not selecting, then you should stay with that. The way of it used to be that a person would go to a preceptor and ask him or her which one to cultivate but the preceptors have ended up telling everyone the same thing; practice anapanasati. I do agree that we should practice all 4 and I think the Anapanasati Sutta tells how to do that with the breath. I also think Howard's idea of an evolutionary path is valid. As Jim demonstrated in the thread on "in Arahatship, in 21 places" it seems rasonable that each of the 21 practices in satipatthana leads [eventually] to arahantship. However as mindfulness of dhammas would appear to be necessary to reach the sotapanna path moment, because mindfulness of dhammas eradicates belief in a self and the end of sakkayaditthi occurs at that stage (sotapanna), so, somehow one has to get from the first foundation to the fourth. However, that is not to say that "Body" is only for beginners. I think attachment to body is deeper than belief in a 'self', which is, after all, a mere concept. But there is a lot to consider here so I'm still studying it. Larry 16506 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Oct 29, 2002 5:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] third insight knowledge ---Dear Nina, I'll take this up in the next meeting. But this saturday Khun Sujin is speaking in Thai on saturday. So it won't be till the following saturday that I have a chance. with respect RobertIn dhammastudygroup@y..., Nina van Gorkom wrote: > the difference, because if we know it, > A.Sujin said, sati can be developed. We have to know the characteristic of > sati of satipatthana. We have to go on discussing this point, I believe. > In the case of the third stage of insight (still tender insight), it must be > clear that a moment with sati is different from a moment without sati. At > that stage no thought of a person when nama or rupa appears, because panna > knows alreadfy nama as nama and rupa as rupa. > What do you think about this? > Could Rob K. perhaps take this up with A. Sujin? > Nina. 16507 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 29, 2002 10:02am Subject: Re: [dsg]prompted, unprompted Dear Rob M, Please omit prompted and unprompted in your summary, these will confuse people. The Expositor gives examples in conventional terms about different ways objects present themselves. When you read on about the examples you will see. When making a summary without examples, it may also confuse others. Examples of experience through the bodysense of one element at a time are given by the Expositor. This is ahetuka vipakacitta and is never prompted or unprompted. This is only used in the classifications of lobha-mula-citta, dosa-mula-citta and maha-kusala citta, maha-vipakacitta and maha-kiriyacitta.Thus, it is not suitable to use the terms prompted and unprompted in the context of object-condition. The examples are not easy to understand, and maybe it would be better not to use this passage in a summary. What do you think? Nina. op 27-10-2002 22:29 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > > Your book reads: > ... the rupas which can be experienced through the senses become > objects "by virtue of deliberate inclination" or "by virtue of > inclusion". > > Is it correct for me to summarize this as: > Rupas which can be sensed can become objects by virtue of deliberate > inclination (prompted) or by virtue of intrusion (unprompted). 16508 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 29, 2002 10:02am Subject: Re: [dsg]luminous, pure (pandaram) Dear Sarah, Thank you very much, this is very helpful, also that you included Jaran's translation. Now I better understand the simile of the Ganges. It was the first time I went to the Patis. text itself. Thai borisud is Pali parisuddha: sudh means clean. This, I believe, has a root different from pabhassara: baas: shining, and pa.ndara: white or pale. Different roots but the meaning more or less the same. op 28-10-2002 08:08 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > I wrote before :“I understand the reason that all cittas > are considered ‘pandaram’ is because they ‘spring’ from the bhavanga > cittas....” This is like rivers flow from a source, collecting impurities > as they flow on. The last sentence you write/translate above is just as we > discussed. > >> “ ‘O Monks, cittas are pure, but they become tainted with upakilesa that > come in, thus.’ Kusala cittas are pandara since they come from cittas > (i.e. bhavanga cittas) like the Ganges river flows from the (source of) > the Ganges river and the Godhaavarii river flows from the Godhaavarii > river.” (Jaran’s transl.)” > ***** 16509 From: robmoult Date: Tue Oct 29, 2002 11:55am Subject: Re: [dsg]prompted, unprompted (also to Sarah) Hi Nina, I will delete the terms "prompted" and "unprompted". I see that they are not appropriate. I am really enjoying summarizing your "24 Conditions" for my class on Sunday. I agree that examples really help make things clearer. I also find that similies are useful in understanding how the various conditions work. Last year, Sayadaw U Silananda ran a ten day course on Abhidhamma here in Malaysia. I missed it, but I got a copy of his handouts. There are some interesting charts on the 24 conditions in his handouts and one of them is a list of similies for each condition (title of similie only, no explanation). Fortunately, I found another book, "The Essence of Buddha Abhidhamma" by Dr. Mehm Tin Mon, which gives all the similies. Our Abhidhamma class has contributed to help reprint this book and Dr. Mehm Tin Mon himself will be using this book to conduct a ten-evening Abhidhamma class here in Malaysia from Nov 11 - 19 (I am trying to arrange my schedule to be able to attend). Nina, do you have a copy of this book? If you are interested, I could probably get one to you via Sarah / Jon / Christine (I am hoping to meet with them in Hong Kong on Nov 27, before they fly to Bangkok). Sarah, can you check with the other DSGrs who are going to Bangkok and find out how many copies of "The Essence of Buddha Abhidhamma" might be needed? It is quite a good reference; quite readable (lots of examples), 450 pages, same structure as the Abhidhammatthasangaha but unlike the CMA it does not contain the Pali verses. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Rob M, > Please omit prompted and unprompted in your summary, these will confuse > people. The Expositor gives examples in conventional terms about different > ways objects present themselves. When you read on about the examples you > will see. When making a summary without examples, it may also confuse > others. Examples of experience through the bodysense of one element at a > time are given by the Expositor. This is ahetuka vipakacitta and is never > prompted or unprompted. This is only used in the classifications of > lobha-mula-citta, dosa-mula-citta and maha-kusala citta, maha- vipakacitta > and maha-kiriyacitta.Thus, it is not suitable to use the terms prompted and > unprompted in the context of object-condition. > The examples are not easy to understand, and maybe it would be better not to > use this passage in a summary. What do you think? > Nina. > > > op 27-10-2002 22:29 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > > > > Your book reads: > > ... the rupas which can be experienced through the senses become > > objects "by virtue of deliberate inclination" or "by virtue of > > inclusion". > > > > Is it correct for me to summarize this as: > > Rupas which can be sensed can become objects by virtue of deliberate > > inclination (prompted) or by virtue of intrusion (unprompted). 16510 From: Frank Kuan Date: Tue Oct 29, 2002 1:41pm Subject: early buddhism a modern invention? Any buddhist scholars want to confirm or comment on this article? http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/26/national/26BELI.html 16511 From: Date: Tue Oct 29, 2002 3:40pm Subject: Way 18, Comm. "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html Commentary continued on: [why] four arousings of mindfulness [Tika] Drawing distinctions, it is said: Body and feeling are the cause of zest [assadassa karana]. For the rejection of that zest of body, by the dull-witted [manda] man of the craving type [tanhacarita], the seeing [dassana] of the ugly [asubha] in the body, the coarse object [olarika arammana], which is the basis of craving [tanha vatthu], is convenient. To that type of man the contemplation on corporeality, the First Arousing of Mindfulness, is the Path to Purity [Visuddhi Magga]. For the abandoning of that zest, by the keen-witted [tikha] man of the craving type, the seeing of suffering in feeling, the subtle object [sukhuma arammana], which is the basis of craving, is convenient, and for him the contemplation on feeling, the Second Arousing of Mindfulness, is the Path to Purity. [T] For the dull-witted man of the theorizing type [ditthi carita] it is convenient to see consciousness [citta] in the fairly simple way it is set forth in this discourse, by way of impermanence [aniccata], and by way of such divisions as mind-with-lust [saragadi vasena], in order to reject the notion of permanence [nicca sañña] in regard to consciousness. Consciousness is a special condition [visesa karana] for the wrong view due to a basic belief in permanence [niccanti abhinivesa vatthutaya ditthiya]. The contemplation on consciousness, the Third Arousing of Mindfulness, is the Path to Purity of this type of man. [T] For the keen-witted man of the theorizing type it is convenient to see mental objects or things [dhamma], according to the manifold way set forth in this discourse, by way of perception, sense-impression and so forth [nivaranadi vasena], in order to reject the notion of a soul [atta sañña] in regard to mental things. Mental things are special conditions for the wrong view due to a basic belief in a soul [attanti abhinivesa vatthutaya ditthiya]. For this type of man the contemplation on mental objects, the Fourth Arousing of Mindfulness, is the Path to Purity. [T] Consciousness and mental objects constitute the outstanding conditions of theorizing. Consciousness is such a condition because it is a decisive factor in the belief in permanence. Mental objects are such conditions because these are decisive factors in the belief in a soul. [T] Consciousness and mental objects are decisive factors of craving as well as of theorizing. And body and feeling are decisive factors of theorizing as well as of craving. Yet to point out that which is stronger in body and feeling, namely, craving, and that which is stronger in consciousness and mental objects, namely, theorizing, distinctions have been drawn. [T] "Because he does not continue to stay in the coarse": The keen-witted man pursuing the path of quietude lays hold of the gross subject of meditation, but he does not stay in that. He lays hold of feeling, the subtle subject of meditation, by way of the factors of absorption [jhana] after attaining to and emerging from the absorption reached with the material body as subject. [T] Since the heart of the man pursuing the path of insight takes to the contemplation of subtle consciousness and mental object, these have been spoken of as the Path to Purity for the man, dull-witted or keen-witted, pursuing insight. 16512 From: Date: Tue Oct 29, 2002 4:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 18, Comm. Way 16: For the dull-witted man, pursuing quietude, the First Arousing of Mindfulness, body-contemplation, is the Path to Purity, by reason of the feasibility of getting at the mental reflex; for the keen-witted of this type, because he does not continue to stay in the coarse, the second Arousing of Mindfulness, the contemplation on feeling, is the Path to Purity. Way 18: [T] "Because he does not continue to stay in the coarse": The keen-witted man pursuing the path of quietude lays hold of the gross subject of meditation, but he does not stay in that. He lays hold of feeling, the subtle subject of meditation, by way of the factors of absorption [jhana] after attaining to and emerging from the absorption reached with the material body as subject. Hi all, I am taking this to mean for the dull or keen-witted man who wants to practice jhana, taking body or feeling as object of jhana is the path to purity. Is this saying that jhana using body or feeling as object qualifies as satipatthana but using a kasina, for example, does not? Or is it just an example of alternate uses of objects of satipatthana? Or what? Larry 16513 From: Date: Tue Oct 29, 2002 6:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] early buddhism a modern invention? H Frank, I haven't read any of Lopez' books but it looks reasonable to me. I find sociological views to be a little depressing though. For a related book you might check out Michael Carrithers' "The Forest Monks Of Sri Lanka : An Anthropological And Historical Study". In it is a little bit of the story of the Island Hermitage. You'll probably only find it in a large library but I'm sure someday someone will write a fuller account of how it came to be founded by Ven ~Nanatiloka and attracted such outstanding scholar translators as Ven. ~Nanamoli, ~Nanaponika, and Bhikkhu Boddhi, three europeans and an american. I think there is another aspect of the dynamic reforming of Buddhism in Theravada by such as Mahasi Sayadow, S.N. Goenka, and possibly even A. Sujin. Also another book that will be written some day. Larry 16514 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Oct 29, 2002 6:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg]prompted, unprompted (also to Sarah) --- Dear Rob, I'll be looking fwd to a copy of that book. Thanks! Robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Nina, > > I will delete the terms "prompted" and "unprompted". I see that they > are not appropriate. > > I am really enjoying summarizing your "24 Conditions" for my class > on Sunday. I agree that examples really help make things clearer. I > also find that similies are useful in understanding how the various > conditions work. Last year, Sayadaw U Silananda ran a ten day course > on Abhidhamma here in Malaysia. I missed it, but I got a copy of his > handouts. There are some interesting charts on the 24 conditions in > his handouts and one of them is a list of similies for each > condition (title of similie only, no explanation). Fortunately, I > found another book, "The Essence of Buddha Abhidhamma" by Dr. Mehm > Tin Mon, which gives all the similies. Our Abhidhamma class has > contributed to help reprint this book and Dr. Mehm Tin Mon himself > will be using this book to conduct a ten-evening Abhidhamma class > here in Malaysia from Nov 11 - 19 (I am trying to arrange my > schedule to be able to attend). > > Nina, do you have a copy of this book? If you are interested, I > could probably get one to you via Sarah / Jon / Christine (I am > hoping to meet with them in Hong Kong on Nov 27, before they fly to > Bangkok). > > Sarah, can you check with the other DSGrs who are going to Bangkok > and find out how many copies of "The Essence of Buddha Abhidhamma" > might be needed? It is quite a good reference; quite readable (lots > of examples), 450 pages, same structure as the Abhidhammatthasangaha > but unlike the CMA it does not contain the Pali verses. > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob M, > > Please omit prompted and unprompted in your summary, these will > confuse > > people. The Expositor gives examples in conventional terms about > different > > ways objects present themselves. When you read on about the > examples you > > will see. When making a summary without examples, it may also > confuse > > others. Examples of experience through the bodysense of one > element at a > > time are given by the Expositor. This is ahetuka vipakacitta and > is never > > prompted or unprompted. This is only used in the classifications of > > lobha-mula-citta, dosa-mula-citta and maha-kusala citta, maha- > vipakacitta > > and maha-kiriyacitta.Thus, it is not suitable to use the terms > prompted and > > unprompted in the context of object-condition. > > The examples are not easy to understand, and maybe it would be > better not to > > use this passage in a summary. What do you think? > > Nina. > > > > > > op 27-10-2002 22:29 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > > > > > > Your book reads: > > > ... the rupas which can be experienced through the senses become > > > objects "by virtue of deliberate inclination" or "by virtue of > > > inclusion". > > > > > > Is it correct for me to summarize this as: > > > Rupas which can be sensed can become objects by virtue of > deliberate > > > inclination (prompted) or by virtue of intrusion (unprompted). 16515 From: rahula_80 Date: Tue Oct 29, 2002 8:42pm Subject: Re: Vimuttattaa Hi, I think I am close to solving my problem on vimuttattaa. Vimuttattaa is vimutta + tta. The suffix -tta is added to vimutta. The suffix -tta is used to signify state or quality. The derivatives formed are in the neuter. See "An Elementary Pali Course" by Narada Thera - Lesson XXII (Taddhita - Nominal Derivatives) and "A Practical Grammar of the Pali Language" by Charles Duroiselle - Chapter 13 (Derivation). So, vimuttattaa is the ablative singular of vimuttatta. Therefore, vimuttattaa. But I still have a few questions. 1. So, are vimuttattamhaa and vimuttattasmaa the same as vimuttattaa? 2. See "No Inner Core" by Sayadaw Silananda http://www.buddha.per.sg/dharma01/anatta1.htm Chapter - Misunderstanding Anatta http://www.buddha.per.sg/dharma01/anatta6.htm It says: Another passage mistranslated by Coomaraswamy and Horner is one found : in Visuddhimagga: "buddhatta ... Buddho." They translate it as, "Buddha is awakened Self." But the correct translation of the Pali is, "He is the Buddha because he knows or he has known." The word buddhatta is not a compound so of buddha and atta, but one word, buddha, with the suffix - tta combined with the ablative case termination, a, which means `because of'. The word buddhatta therefore means `because of the state of being one who knows'. And in Pali-English and English-Pali Dictionary http://watthai.net/ratthapala/lexicon.html In English-Pali B http://watthai.net/ratthapala/english-paliB.html It says: because (adv.; conj.) yasmà...tasmà; yato...tato. Often expressed by the suffix -ttà; the word annexed to it is preceeded by Genitive, e.g. tassa gatattà, because he has gone. My question are: 1. Can anyone explain what is the connection between "ablative case termination" and "because of"? 2. If it is the ablative, shouldn't "...vimuttattaa .thitattaa.m....." be translated as "From freed, it is stable......" 3. So, when we add the suffix -ttaa (ablative singular of -tta), do we use "because of" for it? Rahula 16516 From: Sarah Date: Wed Oct 30, 2002 0:09am Subject: Re: Ugliness (Re: [dsg] Way 17, Comm) Hi Howard, It seems like a long time since we’ve ‘touched base’. ..... --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Larry - > > As part of the following there is: "The body is ugly. There are > people > led astray by the illusion that it is a thing of beauty. In order to > show > such people the ugliness of the body and to make them give up their > wrong > idea, the First Arousing of > Mindfulness is taught." > As far as I'm concerned, saying that the body is ugly is > nonsense. ..... Taking what is impure or ugly (asubha) for being pure or beautiful is one of the 4 perversions or distortions(vipallasa) of mind, perception and view,(the others being the taking for permanent what is impermanent, taking for pleasant what is suffering and taking for self what is without self). How can the rupas which make up the body and which decay and rot at each moment, be considered beautiful? I quoted the following sutta before from B.Bodhi’s translation of ‘Distortions of Perception’, AN, 1V, 61 with useful reminders of how ‘mentally deranged’ we are: ..... “Those who perceive the changeful to be permanent, Suffering as bliss, a self in the selfless, And who see in the foul the mark of beauty - Such folk resort to distorted views, mentally deranged, subject to illusions. Caught by Mara, not free from bonds, They are still far from the secure state. Such beings wander through the painful round And go repeatedly from birth to death. But when the Buddhas appear in the world, The makers of light in a mass of darkness, They reveal this Teaching,the noble Dhamma, That leads to the end of suffering. When people with wisdom listen to them, They at last regain their sanity. They see the impermanent as impermanent, And they see suffering just as suffering. They see the selfless as void of self, And in the foul they see the foul. By this acceptance of right view, They overcome all suffering.” ***** >It > may, under some circumstances be seen as ugly, and under other > circumstances > as lovely. This is all in the mind. The reality is that the body is just > so. > It is as it is. It is a conceptual composite of dhammas, of mutliple > experienced phenomena. Pointing out that there is decay in the body, > that > there are fluids that may not seem pleasant, that there are odors that > are > experienced as unpleasant - all that, is merely corrective skillful > means to > lessen our tendency to crave the body, to cling to it, to adore it. But > the > body is not objectively ugly, and aversion is no better than craving. ..... By body, I understand the various rupas which make up what we take for a body to be referred to - each of which should be understood without any perversion of view or perception. “It is as it is”, i.e impure or ugly, impermanent, unsatisfactory and anatta. Understanding phenomena in such a way has to be accompanied by detachment, not attachment or aversion. As you suggest, aversion is just the flip-side of attachment and still accompanied by ignorance. Good to hear from you, Howard and wishing you well with any trials and tribulations from a sympathizer;-) Sarah ====== 16517 From: Sarah Date: Wed Oct 30, 2002 0:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] "paramis are not lost through parinibbana" Dear Antony, I don’t believe anyone replied to your important question here:\ --- Antony Woods wrote: > >Dear dsg, > > I had the thought: > "paramis are not lost through parinibbana" > Any comments? > > I got the idea from the following sutta quote: > > So Ven. Ananda & Cunda the novice went to the Blessed One and, on > arrival, > having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As they were sitting there, > Ven. > Ananda said to him, "Lord, just now Cunda the novice said to me, > 'Venerable > sir, Ven. Sariputta has attained total Unbinding. Here are his bowl & > robes.' It was as if my body were drugged, I lost my bearings, things > weren't clear to me, on hearing that Ven. Sariputta had attained total > Unbinding." > > "But, Ananda, when he attained total Unbinding, did Sariputta take the > aggregate of virtue along with him? Did he take the aggregate of > concentration... discernment... release... the aggregate of knowledge & > vision of release along with him?" > > "No, lord, when he attained total Unbinding, Ven. Sariputta didn't take > the > aggregate of virtue... concentration... discernment... release... the > aggregate of knowledge & vision of release along with him." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn47-013.html ***** Parinibbana is the total cessation of all the aggregates or formations. There are no conditions for rebirth at all. See the following extract from Nyantiloka’s dictionary at: http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/dic3_n.htm “The 2 aspects of Nibbána are: (1) The full extinction of defilements (kilesa-parinibbána), also called sa-upádi-sesa-nibbána (s. It. 41), i.e. 'Nibbána with the groups of existence still remaining' (s. upádi). This takes place at the attainment of Arahatship, or perfect holiness (s. ariya-puggala). (2) The full extinction of the groups of existence (khandha-parinibbána), also called an-upádi-sesa-nibbána (s. It. 41, A. IV, 118), i.e. 'Nibbána without the groups remaining', in other words, the coming to rest, or rather the 'no-more-continuing' of this physico-mental process of existence. This takes place at the death of the Arahat. - (App.: Nibbána). Sometimes both aspects take place at one and the same moment, i.e. at the death of the Arahat; s. sama-sísí. "This, o monks, truly is the peace, this is the highest, namely the end of all formations, the forsaking of every substratum of rebirth, the fading away of craving, detachment, extinction, Nibbána" (A. III, 32).” ***** Antony, hope this helps and apologies for the delayed response.;-) Let us know if you have further questions about this (or anything else). Sarah ====== 16518 From: Sarah Date: Wed Oct 30, 2002 0:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] ekayana Hi Larry, I haven't seen R.Gethin's account that you and B.Bodhi refer to: --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi all, > > I read Rupert Gethin's account of ekayana magga in "The Buddhist Path to > Awakening" and one point that we missed is concerning the "single, not > double" remark in the commentary. This refers to a forked path and its > attendant doubt. ..... I have a doubt about this comment, however.... (no surprise, I hear you say) I understood the 'single, not double' remark to be referring to lokiya only, not lokiya and lokuttara cittas.....no doubt involved. ..... >Satipattthana overcomes doubt and leads to the end of > doubt because it is a single path (ekayana). .... It's true that it overcomes doubt. It's also true that at moments of satipatthana there is no doubt. .... >Gethin ties this in with > the 'doubt' concerning whether this instruction is a mixed path (lokya > and lokuttara). His point being because there was doubt that was further > evidence that this is a lokiya (mundane) path. ..... I understand the point, but I think he is reading something into the text and commentary that isn't there. Interesting speculation though... Just my two cents' worth on this too;-). Sarah ====== 16519 From: Sarah Date: Wed Oct 30, 2002 0:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 14, Comm. Hi Larry, --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > The Blessed One replied to him as follows: > Besides the wakening factors of the truth, Besides the virtues of the > holy state, > Besides restraint and relinquishment full, I see nothing that can bless > living beings.[14] > > 14. Samyutta Nikaya i, p.54. P.T.S. Edition > > Hi all, > > Does anyone know if this sutta is on-line? Also, what does it mean? .... Our PTS SN went to Rob K in Japan when we bought the B.Bodhi translation, so I can't find it easily to check elsewhere or find on-line(and Rob's not in Japan now). However, what I understand (with no Pali help either) is this: There is nothing else which can overcome suffering Except the development of understanding of the nature of the truth of phenomena In addition to the virtues and sense door restraint, accompanied by the wisdom of the noble states And the total abandonment of attachment, following the Way of Satipatthana. ***** We may think we have no fear and dread of death like Subrahma has. However, while there is clinging to self, there is bound to be fear and dread in various ways to what is occurring or what will occur in future to oneself or those one holds dear. Any comments? Sarah ======= 16520 From: Sarah Date: Wed Oct 30, 2002 1:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] "in Arahatship" Dear Num (& NIna). Thank you for all the very helpful details on ayatana. Your comments all make good sense and Nina’s qu and the point you explained about eyebase being condition for the whole eye-door process, even though it is only doorway for seeing, is the same as I recall from our discussions on these points before with K.Sujin. (Of course, you’ve explained much clearer and in far more detail, thank you). I found your summary below really interesting, especially the point about how rupas (only subtle rupas) being dhammayatana, as only these are present objects in the mind-door process.Even if visible object, for example, is known in the mind-door process, strictly speaking it has already fallen away..... I need to re-read your posts on this topic and all your posts on PTSm very carefully when I have time. (New or confused DSGers may like to check ‘Ayatanas’first in Useful Posts at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ or in N’s dictionary: http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/dic_idx.html) --- sinsk@m... wrote: > ************************ > For the mind-door process: > When the mind-door process is having panntti (concept) as its object: > there are 2 > ayatana (manayatana and dhammayatana). Concept is not an ayatana. > > When the mind-door process is having rupa as its object continues from > the five- > door process: there are 2 ayatanas (manayatana and dhammayatana). The > rupa is > a past object b/c it has completely away with the sense-door process > citta. It’s not > a present object, so cannot be counted as ayatana. > > In a person who can have subtle rupa as his/her object (the subtle rupa > can be > known only through the mind-door). There still only 2 ayatanas but it is > somewhat > different. The cittas in a mind-door process are manayatana, their > accompanies > cetasikas are dhammayatana, and the subtle is also a dhammayatana, b/c > it is a > present object during the mind-door process. So there are 2 different > realities > under the dhammayatana. > > When the mind-door process is having nibbana as its object. There are 2 > ayatanas, and the reason is the same as when the cittas in the mind-door > process > have a subtle rupa as its object. ***** It’s not an easy topic and I’ve seen errors in dictionaries and texts understandably....very deep, but quite important I think. ***** Your summary of the 21 objects discussed in the Way corner was also very clear and helpful for me. You wrote: ***** In abhidhammathahasangaha 21 objects of satipatthana 1) Breathing 2) Modes of deportment (7) 3) Clear comprehension (4) 4) Repulsiveness of the body (32) 5) Major dhatus (4) 6)-14) nine cemetery contemplation 15) Feelings (9 sections in here, all can be categorized into vedana cetasika) 16) Consciousness (16 sections in here, all can be categorized under citta) 17) Hindrances (5) 18) Aggregates (5) 19) Ayatanas (12) 20) Factors of enlightenment (7) 21) Truths (4) 1st-14th: kayanupassanasatipatthana 15th: vedananupassanasatipatthana 16th: cittanupassanasatipatthana 17th-21st: dhammanupassanasatipatthana ***** > I think Robert can give some more detail. (Robert, may I ask you to > make a post > on samasaananana?) > > Have to run. ..... One of you may have to at least give us a clue;-) Appreciate Num and look forward to more of your helpful comments here and in person soon. Have to run too;-) Sarah ===== 16521 From: Sarah Date: Wed Oct 30, 2002 1:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Way 17, Comm- Rob Ep Hi Rob Ep, In real brief;-) --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Again, it would seem to me, perhaps ignorantly, that the arousing of > mindfulness cannot have the purpose of seeing the negative qualities of > the objects of mindfulness, but to see them 'as they are'. One cannot > merely see them 'as they are' and also see them as objects of distaste > at the same time. .... Exactly as I understand too, in that there is a difference in seeing them 'as they are' with eventually the characteristics as discussed, and in having distaste or aversion for the nature of these phenomena. (BTW, Larry, I don't understand the tri-lakkhana or any of the characteristics of realities to be concepts....Certainly now, in ignorance, yes, but not to developed panna which discerns the true nature/characteristics.) ..... > > Moreover it seems to me that the illusions one would be seeing and > 'casting out' are objects of 'aversion'. Is it good to promote > aversion? I understand that aversion is merely the opposite side of > the coin of attachment. If this is the case, it would be better to > practice pure mindfulness that sees things 'in their pure immediacy' > without any appelations, either good or bad, since such appelations are > undoubtedly bound to be concepts. And mindfulness reveals the > actuality of the object in the moment, not merely another version of > its conceptual formation. .... I think we're agreed....(watch out, you may be accused of being stubborn or defensive at this rate, Rob;-)) ..... > When mindfulness is present, then > knowledge of the object and not illusion must also be present, and > there can be no delusion about what is perceived in that moment. > > Interested if you think I am off the mark here. .... Larry's a pretty tough cookie to pass, but imho this is spot on. No delusion and no doubt at moments of mindfulness and knowledge, though as Jon and Nina were discussing recently, it can be so brief and slight in the beginning, that there is bound to be delusion and doubt at other times. Always good to hear from you and always appreciate your 'good cheer'. I think this quality helps a lot. Sarah ====== 16522 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Oct 30, 2002 3:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 18, Comm. Larry An interesting but complex passage (like so many in the Satipatthana Sutta and commentaries). In general terms, the sutta doesn't address the development of samatha as such, and I wouldn't read this passage as suggesting about the practice of samatha. To my reading, it refers to and is directed to a person who has already developed jhana, based on any subject whatsoever (this is how I understand the expression 'person pursuing quietude' in the context), and who is also skilled in the development of satipatthana. Jon --- LBIDD@w... wrote: << Way 16: For the dull-witted man, pursuing quietude, the First Arousing of Mindfulness, body-contemplation, is the Path to Purity, by reason of the feasibility of getting at the mental reflex; for the keen-witted of this type, because he does not continue to stay in the coarse, the second Arousing of Mindfulness, the contemplation on feeling, is the Path to Purity. Way 18: [T] "Because he does not continue to stay in the coarse": The keen-witted man pursuing the path of quietude lays hold of the gross subject of meditation, but he does not stay in that. He lays hold of feeling, the subtle subject of meditation, by way of the factors of absorption [jhana] after attaining to and emerging from the absorption reached with the material body as subject. Hi all, I am taking this to mean for the dull or keen-witted man who wants to practice jhana, taking body or feeling as object of jhana is the path to purity. Is this saying that jhana using body or feeling as object qualifies as satipatthana but using a kasina, for example, does not? Or is it just an example of alternate uses of objects of satipatthana? Or what? Larry >> 16523 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Oct 30, 2002 2:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] temperaments Larry I'm appreciating all the discussion that your 'Way' posts are generating. And thanks for the additional comments that you bring up, too. --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Nina, > > I think the selecting of an object can be very useful. Even > the Kuru washer women would ask, "which arousing of mindfulness do > you cultivate, dearie". Hmm. Are you suggesting that the notion of selecting an object is something you find spelt out (or inferred) in the Satipatthana Sutta or its commentaries? If so, I'd be interested to know which part that is. > The way of it used to be that a person would go to a preceptor and ask > him or her which one to cultivate but the preceptors have ended up > telling everyone the same thing; practice anapanasati. I'm wondering if you're not confusing object of samatha development with object of vipassana development. I do not recall in the texts any reference to monks asking their teachers for objects of vipassana development (but this is sometimes mentioned in the context of samatha). Jon > I do agree that > we should practice all 4 and I think the Anapanasati Sutta tells how to > do that with the breath. I also think Howard's idea of an evolutionary > path is valid. As Jim demonstrated in the thread on "in Arahatship, in > 21 places" it seems rasonable that each of the 21 practices in > satipatthana leads [eventually] to arahantship. However as mindfulness > of dhammas would appear to be necessary to reach the sotapanna path > moment, because mindfulness of dhammas eradicates belief in a self and > the end of sakkayaditthi occurs at that stage (sotapanna), so, somehow > one has to get from the first foundation to the fourth. However, that is > not to say that "Body" is only for beginners. I think attachment to body > is deeper than belief in a 'self', which is, after all, a mere concept. > But there is a lot to consider here so I'm still studying it. > Larry 16524 From: Date: Wed Oct 30, 2002 3:08am Subject: Re: Ugliness (Re: [dsg] Way 17, Comm) Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 10/30/02 3:10:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > It seems like a long time since we’ve ‘touched base’. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. -------------------------------------------- > ..... > --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, Larry - > > > > As part of the following there is: "The body is ugly. There are > >people > >led astray by the illusion that it is a thing of beauty. In order to > >show > >such people the ugliness of the body and to make them give up their > >wrong > >idea, the First Arousing of > >Mindfulness is taught." > > As far as I'm concerned, saying that the body is ugly is > >nonsense. > ..... > Taking what is impure or ugly (asubha) for being pure or beautiful is one > of the 4 perversions or distortions(vipallasa) of mind, perception and > view,(the others being the taking for permanent what is impermanent, > taking for pleasant what is suffering and taking for self what is without > self). > > How can the rupas which make up the body and which decay and rot at each > moment, be considered beautiful? > ------------------------------------------ Howard: The body, in and of itself, is neither beautiful nor ugly in the sense of good or bad. It is just what it is - unless we cling to it as being a certain way. Generally, what we find physically beautiful in a human or animal body is, when not just culturally determined, probably closely tied to our recognition of that body being vital, fuctioning properly, in good health, and suited to its function. [This last part of "suited to its function" also applies to things other than bodies"] And the opposite is generally true with regard to finding a body to be ugly. It is only here that there lies some objectivity to beauty and ugliness. There is nothing wrong with decay, change, impermanence - unless we cling to a momentary state. All conditioned dhammas fail to remain. There is no problem with that except for our craving for things to be otherwise. As I see it, the closer to being enlightened (or the more one is enlightened), the more delight - free and easy delight - will be taken in all dhammas. But this delight will be a universal, nondiscriminative one. For when a healthy, vital, well functioning body is seen, at the very same time it will be known that it is impermanent and subject to decay and death; so even the "beautiful" is "ugly". One problem is that the words 'beautiful' and 'ugly' are judgemental and carry the connotations of craving and aversion. ------------------------------------------------------ > > I quoted the following sutta before from B.Bodhi’s translation of > ‘Distortions of > Perception’, AN, 1V, 61 with useful reminders of how ‘mentally deranged’ > we > are: > ..... > “Those who perceive the changeful to be permanent, > Suffering as bliss, a self in the selfless, > And who see in the foul the mark of beauty - > Such folk resort to distorted views, > mentally deranged, subject to illusions. > Caught by Mara, not free from bonds, > They are still far from the secure state. > Such beings wander through the painful round > And go repeatedly from birth to death. > But when the Buddhas appear in the world, > The makers of light in a mass of darkness, > They reveal this Teaching,the noble Dhamma, > That leads to the end of suffering. > When people with wisdom listen to them, > They at last regain their sanity. > They see the impermanent as impermanent, > And they see suffering just as suffering. > They see the selfless as void of self, > And in the foul they see the foul. > By this acceptance of right view, > They overcome all suffering.â€? > ***** > >It > >may, under some circumstances be seen as ugly, and under other > >circumstances > >as lovely. This is all in the mind. The reality is that the body is just > >so. > >It is as it is. It is a conceptual composite of dhammas, of mutliple > >experienced phenomena. Pointing out that there is decay in the body, > >that > >there are fluids that may not seem pleasant, that there are odors that > >are > >experienced as unpleasant - all that, is merely corrective skillful > >means to > >lessen our tendency to crave the body, to cling to it, to adore it. But > >the > >body is not objectively ugly, and aversion is no better than craving. > ..... > By body, I understand the various rupas which make up what we take for a > body to be referred to - each of which should be understood without any > perversion of view or perception. “It is as it isâ€?, i.e impure or ugly, > impermanent, unsatisfactory and anatta. Understanding phenomena in such a > way has to be accompanied by detachment, not attachment or aversion. As > you suggest, aversion is just the flip-side of attachment and still > accompanied by ignorance. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: We basically agree here. I just have reservations with regard to the associations usually made with 'beauty' and 'ugliness'. ---------------------------------------------- > > Good to hear from you, Howard and wishing you well with any trials and > tribulations from a sympathizer;-) > --------------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks! ;-) --------------------------------------------- > > Sarah > ====== > ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16525 From: Date: Wed Oct 30, 2002 9:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 14, Comm. Besides the wakening factors of the truth, Besides the virtues of the holy state, Besides restraint and relinquishment full, I see nothing that can bless living beings. Hi Sarah, I did find this at ATI here http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/news/essay37.html When you say, "while there is clinging to self, there is bound to be fear and dread in various ways to what is occurring or what will occur in future to oneself or those one holds dear" I completely agree. And this is a nice summing up: "There is nothing else which can overcome suffering Except the development of understanding of the nature of the truth of phenomena In addition to the virtues and sense door restraint, accompanied by the wisdom of the noble states And the total abandonment of attachment, following the Way of Satipatthana." What I was fishing for is a little more commentary on awakening factors, virtues of the holy state, restraint and relinquishment. Just a sentence or two would be helpful. Thanks, Larry 16526 From: Date: Wed Oct 30, 2002 9:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] ekayana Hi Sarah, Concerning R. Gethin's remark on "single, not double" referring to a forked path and its attendant doubt, to me this has the 'flavor' of ancient commentary but he doesn't give any details. I understood it to mean something like there's no question of whether to take the short cut or the scenic route, or whether to take the high road or the low road. There's only one way (ekayana), satipatthana. I agree tying this into the question of whether it is a mixed path (lokiya/lokutarra) or not is a bit of a stretch and probably his own idea. But the overcoming doubt element is a good point that wasn't in this commentary. Larry 16527 From: Date: Wed Oct 30, 2002 10:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 18, Comm. Way 16: For the dull-witted man, pursuing quietude, the First Arousing of Mindfulness, body-contemplation, is the Path to Purity, by reason of the feasibility of getting at the mental reflex; for the keen-witted of this type, because he does not continue to stay in the coarse, the second Arousing of Mindfulness, the contemplation on feeling, is the Path to Purity. Way 18: [T] "Because he does not continue to stay in the coarse": The keen-witted man pursuing the path of quietude lays hold of the gross subject of meditation, but he does not stay in that. He lays hold of feeling, the subtle subject of meditation, by way of the factors of absorption [jhana] after attaining to and emerging from the absorption reached with the material body as subject. Jon: "To my reading, it refers to and is directed to a person who has already developed jhana, based on any subject whatsoever (this is how I understand the expression 'person pursuing quietude' in the context), and who is also skilled in the development of satipatthana." Hi Jon, This is a good lead. So for the dull-witted jhana practitioner the satipatthana to practice is mindfulness of body and for the keen-witted jhana practitioner the satipatthana to practice is mindfulness of feeling. This fits in with the general theme of assigning satipatthanas to various types and adds another dimension: "body" or "feeling" are not just for dull or keen-witted sensualists, they are also for jhana practitioners. The satipatthanas are separated into samatha and vipassana, body and feeling being primarily focused on developing samatha and mind and dhammas being primarily focused on developing vipassana. However, I'm understanding the samatha here to be simply in the direction of restraint rather than jhana. But this is a gray area for me. Not sure how it works out. Also there is the idea that samatha and vipassana work together in satipatthana. So that is another factor to be worked out; but it hasn't come up in the commentary yet. Larry 16528 From: Date: Wed Oct 30, 2002 10:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] temperaments Hi Jon, I'm glad you revived this thread. I've been having second thoughts about what I said. Basically I don't really understand what A. Sujin is recommending. I've been looking through my books trying to find something on formless meditation but haven't found anything that really jives with her approach. Maybe we should postpone this part of the discussion until we get a little further into the commentary. The question that relates to where we are right now is what are we to do with these ways of understaning the 4 satipatthanas. Everyone is attached to the body, everyone desires pleasant feeling, everyone believes in permanence, everyone believes in a self. That is the problem. The 4 satipatthanas are the solution. What should we do? As for the question of selecting a practice based on one's 'type'. Traditionally it was the guru that did the selecting, not the student. But that seems like a minor point to me. Below is the excerpt in question. Larry -------------- But Sawong: The venerable Patriarch has some questions. If it is true that one cannot choose or select any object for the practice of satipatthåna, how do you explain that, as we read in the commentaries, objects are selected in accordance with a person¹s temperament or character, such as a greedy temperament (tanhå carita) or a speculative temperament (ditthi carita). Furthermore, some people have samatha as their vehicle, they have developed tranquillity and insight, and some have vipassanå as their vehicle, they have developed only vipassanå. In the Commentary to the Satipatthåna Sutta a city with four gates has been compared to nibbåna, and it has been explained that just as people can enter a city with four gates by anyone of these gates, one can attain enlightenment by means of anyone of the four applications of mindfulness, mindfulness of the body, of feeling, of citta and of dhammas. How do we have to understand this? Sujin: Usually when people read in the scriptures about these subjects they desire to know more about this, or they desire to act in a particular way. When they hear about different temperaments, such as a person of an intelligent temperament, a ruminating temperament, or a hateful temperament, they think of themselves as having such or such temperament and they choose a particular way of development which suits their character. However, in reality this subject of the Dhamma has been taught so that it is a condition for the arising of paññå that knows the truth. Only when one develops satipatthåna, paññå can arise and then a person can know what character or temperament he has. Without the development of satipatthåna he does not know realities and he can only guess what kind of temperament he has. There are qualities such as attachment, aversion, ignorance, and also paññå, understanding of the Dhamma. What temperament do we have? This is only thinking and guessing. Everybody has these dhammas. Only when paññå arises and sati is aware we can know the truth about the different characters of each individual, we can know how our accumulated inclinations are the condition for our own temperament. Someone may guess about his temperament and he may believe that he should develop a particular object among the four Applications of Mindfulness. He hopes to obtain a result by this way of practice. However, this is not the right condition for knowing the truth of non-self of realities; it is not the way to know all realities thoroughly. Someone may select an object and fix his attention on that object since he believes that he has such or such temperament and that he should therefore develop this particular Application of Mindfulness. At that moment he neglects awareness of all the objects he is used to taking for self. Of what temperament is a person when attachment arises, when aversion arises or when ignorance arises? All these realities are non-self, anattå. Therefore, the wrong view of self cannot be eradicated by selecting an object someone believes is suitable for his temperament. It is true that in the development of samatha the object of meditation is selected in accordance with someone¹s character. By the development of samatha defilements are subdued so that calm increases. However, the development of vipassanå is different from the development of samatha and it has a different aim, namely, the eradication of ignorance. Ignorance of realities conditions the wrong view which takes realities for self. Therefore, in the development of satipatthåna there should not be any selection of objects of understanding. In the ³Path of Discrimination²(Treatise I on Knowledge, Ch 1, Section 1, All), it has been said: ³Bhikkhus, all is to be directly known. And what is all that is to be directly known? Eye is to be directly known, visible object is to be directly known, eye-consciousness... eye-contact... any feeling that arises with eye-contact as its condition whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant is also to be directly known...² Further on all realities are summed up and it is said that all of them should be known thoroughly, not any reality is excepted.>End quote. 16529 From: azita gill Date: Wed Oct 30, 2002 5:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 14, Comm. heavy going --- Sarah wrote: > Hi Larry, > [snip] > > We may think we have no fear and dread of death like > Subrahma has. > However, while there is clinging to self, there is > bound to be fear and > dread in various ways to what is occurring or what > will occur in future to > oneself or those one holds dear. > > Any comments? > > Sarah > ======= > Yes, I want to comment on this. I feel more uncertain and insecure the more I learn. I see friends, workmates, family, running around seemingly having a 'good time', getting on with their lives, so to speak, whereas I seem to have lost interest and some sort of 'spontaneous joy' about everyday things. Unpleasant feeling, got to be dosa, but it does 'get me down' sometimes. I don't visit friends much anymore, cos I think they just talk s..t [excuse me, but I'm telling it like it is - for me]. And maybe today's just a bad day!!!! > Have been trying to keep up with some of the recent posts, but have found them heavy going and very wordy. re-reading what I've just written has made me feel like a 'whinger', not a good thing if you're Aussie! > On a more positive note, I must comment on a book I'm reading 'The Great Chronicle of Buddhas' by Ven.Mingun Sayadaw, a Burmese monk, now deceased. This pub. has given me a much better idea of how great the Buddhas really are. How extremely hard a Boddisatva has to work to become a Buddha, how immesurably long it takes. > May you all be happy, > Azita 16530 From: James Date: Wed Oct 30, 2002 7:30pm Subject: Rupa Has Dukkha? Hello Friends, I have begun reading "Abhidhamma in daily life" to learn about the Abhidhamma, of which I am quite ignorant, and I have a question. I was told this was the group to post this question. The first chapter states that all conditioned dhammas (Nama and Rupa) have the characteristics of dukkha and anatta, "All conditioned dhammas: citta, cetasika and rupa, are impermanent (anicca). All conditioned dhammas are 'dukkha' since they are impermanent. All dhammas are anatta, not-self " But it states prior to this, "Seeing is, for example, a type of nama; it experiences visible object. Visible object itself is rupa; it does not experience anything." My question is: If rupa doesn't experience anything, how can it have the characteristic of dukkha? I thought that dukkha was a component of the mind…suffering or stress. Is this a different type of dukkha found in rupa? I don't understand how impermanence equals dukkha in an inanimate object. For example, in Spanish, objects are given either the qualities of masculine or feminine. But we know that a book is not really `feminine', nor is a door `masculine'. So how can a book have the characteristic of dukkha (suffering) or a door the characteristic of dukkha (suffering)? I won't even begin to ask about anatta because that is a really confusing aspect when applied to material objects. First I want to understand dukkha and maybe I can then tackle anatta in rupa objects. Does anyone have any input on this question? I feel that I must understand this basic aspect before I delve further into the Abhidhamma. Thank you in advance for any help offered. Metta, James ps. If it does turn out that rupa doesn't really have the characteristic of dukkha, does that mean the entire Abhidhamma is invalid? Or can this be overlooked? 16531 From: Frank Kuan Date: Wed Oct 30, 2002 7:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupa Has Dukkha? Hi James, Don't take dukkha so personally. Meaning, it's not "I" who suffers, or a "book" that suffers, or a "table" that suffers. It's just suffering. There is suffering, not "I am suffering". See the difference? It helps to think of dukkha, rather than *something or someone* suffering, as a characteristic of being unstable/imperfect/incapable of bringing happiness. No personal identity or personificaiton of an object that suffers needs to be attached. In fact, that's why whatever has the nature of dukkha also has the nature of anatta (not self). -fk --- James wrote: > Hello Friends, > I have begun reading "Abhidhamma in daily life" to > learn about the > Abhidhamma, of which I am quite ignorant, and I have > a question. I > was told this was the group to post this question. > The first chapter > states that all conditioned dhammas (Nama and Rupa) > have the > characteristics of dukkha and anatta, "All > conditioned dhammas: > citta, cetasika and rupa, are impermanent (anicca). > All conditioned > dhammas are 'dukkha' since they are impermanent. All > dhammas are > anatta, not-self " > > But it states prior to this, "Seeing is, for > example, a type of nama; > it experiences visible object. Visible object itself > is rupa; it does > not experience anything." My question is: If rupa > doesn't experience > anything, how can it have the characteristic of > dukkha? I thought > that dukkha was a component of the mind…suffering or > stress. Is this > a different type of dukkha found in rupa? I don't > understand how > impermanence equals dukkha in an inanimate object. > > For example, in Spanish, objects are given either > the qualities of > masculine or feminine. But we know that a book is > not > really `feminine', nor is a door `masculine'. So > how can a book have > the characteristic of dukkha (suffering) or a door > the characteristic > of dukkha (suffering)? I won't even begin to ask > about anatta > because that is a really confusing aspect when > applied to material > objects. First I want to understand dukkha and > maybe I can then > tackle anatta in rupa objects. > > Does anyone have any input on this question? I feel > that I must > understand this basic aspect before I delve further > into the > Abhidhamma. Thank you in advance for any help > offered. > > Metta, James > > ps. If it does turn out that rupa doesn't really > have the > characteristic of dukkha, does that mean the entire > Abhidhamma is > invalid? Or can this be overlooked? > 16532 From: James Date: Wed Oct 30, 2002 7:53pm Subject: Introduction Dear Friends, Oops, I posted a message and then I read the welcome letter to this group. It reads: Dear Dhamma Friend, Welcome to the group. We hope you will take part in and benefit from the exchange of views here. All new members are invited to consider posting a short `Hello'. Other members would be interested to know something about you, your interest in Buddhism and how you found your way here! Okay, this is my Hello to you all. About me: My name is James Mitchell; I live in Phoenix, Arizona, and I am an English/Speech/Debate High School Teacher. I am 33 and white. My Interest in Buddhism: I have been a Buddhist for 15 years or so. I would call myself a Zen Buddhist trapped in the body of a Theravada Buddhist. My outlook is pretty unique; I like to think about Buddhism in modern terms and how it applies to daily life; and I have been known to be a little shocking to inspire thought (but I won't do that here). I help to lead meditation retreats at my Buddhist temple and I once entertained the possibility of becoming a monk but decided against it. I have a rebellious streak that runs contrary to monasticism. How I Found my way here: I was a member of Dhamma List and this group was suggested as a place where I could learn about the Abihdhamma. I was suspended in DL for one week for outrageous, insulting posts and then I quit. I am reformed now and will not do that in this list. I know a lot about Buddhism but I have a lot to learn about life. I hope that this group will welcome me so that I may learn. With Metta, James 16533 From: ven.yanatharo.bikkhu Date: Wed Oct 30, 2002 8:54pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Introduction James, Everybody from DL list are here too. Venerable Yanatharo -----Mensaje original----- De: James [mailto:buddhatrue@y...] Enviado el: Jueves, Octubre 31, 2002 02:54 p.m. Para: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Asunto: [dsg] Introduction Dear Friends, Oops, I posted a message and then I read the welcome letter to this group. It reads: Dear Dhamma Friend, Welcome to the group. We hope you will take part in and benefit from the exchange of views here. All new members are invited to consider posting a short `Hello'. Other members would be interested to know something about you, your interest in Buddhism and how you found your way here! Okay, this is my Hello to you all. About me: My name is James Mitchell; I live in Phoenix, Arizona, and I am an English/Speech/Debate High School Teacher. I am 33 and white. My Interest in Buddhism: I have been a Buddhist for 15 years or so. I would call myself a Zen Buddhist trapped in the body of a Theravada Buddhist. My outlook is pretty unique; I like to think about Buddhism in modern terms and how it applies to daily life; and I have been known to be a little shocking to inspire thought (but I won't do that here). I help to lead meditation retreats at my Buddhist temple and I once entertained the possibility of becoming a monk but decided against it. I have a rebellious streak that runs contrary to monasticism. How I Found my way here: I was a member of Dhamma List and this group was suggested as a place where I could learn about the Abihdhamma. I was suspended in DL for one week for outrageous, insulting posts and then I quit. I am reformed now and will not do that in this list. I know a lot about Buddhism but I have a lot to learn about life. I hope that this group will welcome me so that I may learn. With Metta, James 16534 From: Sarah Date: Wed Oct 30, 2002 9:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Introduction Dear James (& Frank), Welcome to DSG. We have another James lurking, but we’ll sort that out when hopefully we hear from him again. Thank you for giving us all the info about yourself. I’m interested and glad to hear about how you consider Buddhism in terms of applying to daily life and so on. I think we all find out a lot more about the Abhidhamma here and really about all aspects of the Teachings. We all have plenty to learn and I sincerely hope, James, that the shocking/rebellious/outrageous streak doesn’t interfere with this opportunity. (The moderators have the reputation of being pretty tough and mean when it comes to enforcing the guidelines here:-)). I’m sure you have plenty to share as well and this is evident in your first post. We can all benefit a lot from your keen interest. Btw, I think your first questions are really helpful and well-considered and we’ll be very happy to hear more. Nina will also be glad to read of your interest in ADL too. We all welcome different views and understandings too and I think you’ll find there is plenty of tolerance and good humour in this regard. Frank’s given a helpful response and you’ll be doing us all a favour if you encourage him to share more of his wisdom;-) That which is impermanent (nama or rupa) is inherently unsatisfactory =dukkha. For the three meanings of dukkha, at this link, scroll down to Useful Posts and then down to dukkha: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ I think you’ll also find it interesting to read the past posts under anatta and other topics that come up as well. Please also note that we’ve also recently started looking at the commentaries to the Satipatthana Sutta under the ‘Way’ thread. Larry gives the link with each new extract. Anyone is welcome to join in. Best wishes, James. (You're also welcome to contact Jon or myself off-list anytime if you're about to say something outrageous or if it helps you to stay the course;-)) Sarah (p.s Frank: I tried following that other link you posted to the New York Times article, but took one look at the questionnaire one had to fill out first and ran away, I’m afraid.) ================================================== James wrote: >Okay, this is my Hello to you all. About me: My name is James Mitchell; I live in Phoenix, Arizona, and I am an English/Speech/Debate High School Teacher. I am 33 and white. My Interest in Buddhism: I have been a Buddhist for 15 years or so. I would call myself a Zen Buddhist trapped in the body of a Theravada Buddhist. My outlook is pretty unique; I like to think about >Buddhism in modern terms and how it applies to daily life; 16535 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Oct 30, 2002 9:59pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation" Dear Larry, I understand that you think the issue of realities / concepts is dead. I obviously want to rehash it because I (obviously) think knowing the differences is important. First, some random thoughts, just for you: 1) There are 3 tipitakas in the Theravadan tradition, comprising of approximately 45 volumes. Obviously, each of us probably will need to learn more to gain better understanding of the teachings of the Buddha. 2) There are immense amount of materials about realities, and their distinctions from concepts in the Abhidhamma. The Suttas (except from the commentaries) also have tons of materials on realities, except that they are often mixed in with concepts as well. Why do you think there are so much materials on realities? 3) The Buddha basically said we need to learn about the impermanence, suffering, and anattaness of all things, and invariably, the "things" are then referred to be khandhas. Khandhas are obviously not people, animals, or trees. They are, from classifications everywhere, realities, sacca dhammas. 4) For me, the different levels of wisdom are like, irrefutable (to oneself) proof that the Buddha are right about all these different realities. Irrefutable proof is when one directly experiences, with wisdom, the impermanence, the suffering, and the anattaness of all conditioned dhammas. If I can simply think about the realities, and infer that they are impermanent, suffering, and anatta, then this would be very convenient! Many of us would have been enlightened by now: I think about them everyday... 5) I can think of anger that arose yesterday, but yet, when I am thinking about it now, there is no anger. How could I directly know that anger is impermanent, suffering, and anatta? The only way to directly know anger is when I directly see it appear, and disappear, all because of the different conditions. 6) You may wonder if Satipatthana is all about realities, then why there are many concepts that are mentioned in the Satipatthana itself. But then, there are many answers, none of which may be satisfactory to you... Now, some comments about what you wrote. > -----Original Message----- > From: LBIDD@w... [mailto:LBIDD@w...] > Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 5:37 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation" > > > As for the debate on whether concepts are present > during satipatthana, I > think that is pretty much a dead issue. Although > others may disagree. > The intention behind saying concepts are not an > object of satipatthana > is meant to bring one into the present moment, > rather than lost in > thought. I completely agree with this but it also > seems obvious to me > that concepts are part of every citta process on > the level of mundane > experience. It is pretty clear from the Abhidhamma description that there are citta process that experiences realities and not concepts. But on the other hand, because of how fast the processes are, if you are aware of something, then you invariably think about them conceptually. > Beside that the object of jhana is a > concept and jhana is > an object of satipatthana There are arupa jhana where the aramanas are realities, and not concepts. > plus nibbana as part of > the 4 noble truths is > a concept when they are an object of satipatthana > because satipatthana > is a mundane path (pre-nibbana). Nibbana is only experienced by supra-mundane cittas. The 4 noble truths are truly penetrated by wisdom at the point of magga, because prior to that, nibbana as realities are simply unknown to the wisdom. The cittas can definitely have the concept of nibbana as the object, but then you know what my line about satipathanna and its object is... I think concepts can be object of kusala cittas, but to directly know things as impermanence, suffering, and anatta, nothing substitute realities that are just arising now... kom 16536 From: James Date: Wed Oct 30, 2002 10:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupa Has Dukkha? --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Frank Kuan wrote: > Hi James, > Don't take dukkha so personally. Meaning, it's not > "I" who suffers, or a "book" that suffers, or a > "table" that suffers. It's just suffering. There is > suffering, not "I am suffering". See the difference? (Sorry it took me a while to respond. I have been pondering this post and even called up some friends interested in Buddhism and we discussed it. Sadly, they seem to see the difference in what you are saying, but I do not. They concluded that it is because I take words too literally and that I need to look at what you are saying beneath the words. That this is a Zen-like statement that I don't get. And I thought I was very Zen! :-) Oh well, maybe it will come to me in a flash of insight. You see, the word 'suffering' is Present Progressive and means that an action is repeating continuously. I can see that a table can have the characteristics of: brown, solid, and cool. But I cannot see how a table would be: browning, solidifying, and cooling. Actually, the term 'suffering' used this way seems to defy the reality of impermanence. Suffering for humans is not a permanent feature; it changes, and can be escaped through nibbana. Is it possible for a table to achieve nibbana? Hehehe…j/k Just as when a window breaks it is breaking, but the breaking doesn't last very long. A window can't be breaking and breaking and breaking. I still don't see how a table could be suffering and suffering and suffering; even using this definition.) > It helps to think of dukkha, rather than *something or > someone* suffering, as a characteristic of being > unstable/imperfect/incapable of bringing happiness. (Okay, now here you seem to be saying that the characteristic of dukkha is conditional on the object because it cannot bring satisfaction…it only brings dissatisfaction or suffering. But in this case I am also confused but then how would the Buddha see the table? Would the table then lose its characteristic of dukkha because it wouldn't bring him any suffering. I thought this characteristic had to be absolute and not just conditional. Again, I am very confused) No personal identity or personificaiton of an object that > suffers needs to be attached. (I still think to say that an object 'suffers' is adding a quality of personification to that object. The very word is human-based. But, then again, I may be being too literal. I really do want to understand this subject. I hope that it doesn't sound like I am taking this too personally, but maybe I am. Apologies if that is the case.) In Pema, James In fact, that's why > whatever has the nature of dukkha also has the nature > of anatta (not self). > 16537 From: James Date: Wed Oct 30, 2002 10:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Introduction Sarah, Thank you for your kind welcome. I plan to be a good boy and not just write the first thing that pops into my head about subjects. That is what usually gets me into trouble. Thank you for your offer to help edit my posts to make them more politically correct and pleasing. If I have a post I think is questionable, I will send it to you first and you can edit it and post it/or not, as you see fit. I don't want or intend to cause problems here. I have learned from my past mistakes. I drove the moderators of DL to create new rules inspired by me, and then I broke those! :-( *tisk, tisk* I might as well tell you this now because I know you will be flooded with e- mails off-list about me. It's better if I fess up now than later! :-) I also appreciate your kind words about my post. The moderators of DL also considered my posts and participation valuable, or they would have not been so tolerant of me and would have bounced me out long ago. But I had to keep pushing the limits. Unfortunately, I have burned that bridge now and hope not to repeat that mistake again. I am also happy to see that you appreciate a sense of humor. I can almost guarantee that every post of mine will have at least one joke. I cannot help but think of jokes all the time. I am not being disrespectful of the dhamma when I do this; I am showing the joy I have in the dhamma that naturally comes flowing up to the surface. I would sing if I could about the dhamma, but I am not an 'American Idol' calibre singer ;-). Thank you and I feel very happy I discovered this group. With Pema, James --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Dear James (& Frank), > > Welcome to DSG. We have another James lurking, but we'll sort that out > when hopefully we hear from him again. > > Thank you for giving us all the info about yourself. I'm interested and > glad to hear about how you consider Buddhism in terms of applying to daily > life and so on. > > I think we all find out a lot more about the Abhidhamma here and really > about all aspects of the Teachings. We all have plenty to learn and I > sincerely hope, James, that the shocking/rebellious/outrageous streak > doesn't interfere with this opportunity. (The moderators have the > reputation of being pretty tough and mean when it comes to enforcing the > guidelines here:-)). I'm sure you have plenty to share as well and this is > evident in your first post. We can all benefit a lot from your keen > interest. > > Btw, I think your first questions are really helpful and well- considered > and we'll be very happy to hear more. Nina will also be glad to read of > your interest in ADL too. We all welcome different views and > understandings too and I think you'll find there is plenty of tolerance > and good humour in this regard. > > Frank's given a helpful response and you'll be doing us all a favour if > you encourage him to share more of his wisdom;-) That which is impermanent > (nama or rupa) is inherently unsatisfactory =dukkha. > For the three meanings of dukkha, at this link, scroll down to Useful > Posts and then down to dukkha: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ > > I think you'll also find it interesting to read the past posts under > anatta and other topics that come up as well. > > Please also note that we've also recently started looking at the > commentaries to the Satipatthana Sutta under the `Way' thread. Larry gives > the link with each new extract. Anyone is welcome to join in. > > Best wishes, James. (You're also welcome to contact Jon or myself off-list > anytime if you're about to say something outrageous or if it helps you to > stay the course;-)) > > Sarah > (p.s Frank: I tried following that other link you posted to the New York > Times article, but took one look at the questionnaire one had to fill out > first and ran away, I'm afraid.) > ================================================== > > James wrote: > >Okay, this is my Hello to you all. About me: My name is James > Mitchell; I live in Phoenix, Arizona, and I am an > English/Speech/Debate High School Teacher. I am 33 and white. > > My Interest in Buddhism: I have been a Buddhist for 15 years or so. > I would call myself a Zen Buddhist trapped in the body of a Theravada > Buddhist. My outlook is pretty unique; I like to think about > >Buddhism in modern terms and how it applies to daily life; > > 16538 From: Sarah Date: Wed Oct 30, 2002 10:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 14, Comm. Hi Larry, --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Besides the wakening factors of the truth, Besides the virtues of the > holy state, > Besides restraint and relinquishment full, I see nothing that can bless > living beings. > > > Hi Sarah, > > I did find this at ATI here > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/news/essay37.html .... I think we’re getting somewhere now with some good team-work. I had read the essay before when you posted it (and like Azita, found it beautifully written). This time I’ve been able to locate the verses in B.Bodhi’s translation of Samyutta Nikayya under Devaputtasamyutta, p.149 where he gives this translation: “Not apart from enlightenment and austerity, Not apart from restraint of the sense faculties, Not apart from relinquishing all, Do I see any safety for living beings.” ***** Fortunately, he also adds some detailed commentary notes to the verse under note 168, p.390, so I’ll just add one or two as I understand from the notes here: > What I was fishing for is a little more commentary on awakening factors, > virtues of the holy state, restraint and relinquishment. Just a sentence > or two would be helpful .... 1.awakening factors:bojjhanga - enlightenment factors 2.virtues of the holy state: tapa - ascetic practices of the bhikkhu nec. for jhana realizations 3. restraint and relinquishment: sense-restraint, i.e purification of virtue and sabbanissagga (relinquishing all)-”everything comprised in formations is relinquished” ***** There is more helpful detail too (but that would run to more than 2 sentences;-).I’m very grateful to you, Larry, for encouraging us all to dig out these details, and not settling for less than the exact notes and references. Sarah ===== 16539 From: robmoult Date: Wed Oct 30, 2002 11:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupa Has Dukkha? Hi James, Let me see if I can help. Abhidhamma discussions tend to use a lot of Pali words. This is because in the Abhidhamma, words have very specific technial meanings and using common English would lead to confusion. "Dukkha" is an excellent example. "Dukkha" is often translated as "suffering", but this is only one way of looking at "dukkha". I recently read a translation where "dukkha" was translated as "stress" and it opened up new doors of understanding to see "dukkha" in this light (at least it did for me). Another translation of "dukkha", one that is more easily associated with rupa, is "unsatisfactoriness". Why is rupa unsatisfactory? Because it is impermanent (anicca). Do you remember the first "Crocodile Dundee"? There are a lot of Aussies on this list, so I thought that I would throw this in :-). There was a scene where Mick talked about the Aboriginal view of the land, "It was here long before we were and will be here long after we are gone. How can anybody talk about owning it?" As an English teacher, you can probably help me; isn't "suffering" a gerund (can work as a verb or a noun)? Perhaps it helps to think of "dukkha" as a characteristic (noun), not as a verb. How would a Buddha perceive a table? Here is my understanding (it is a bit complex). A Buddha would know (wise attention / yoniso manisakara) that there was a visible object impinging on the eye- sense. He would know that multiple impingements had taken place and that form was constrcted as a concept. He would know that his mind had attached the label "table" to this form. Where does "dukkha" fit in? A Buddha would know that the characteristic of the visible object (rupa) is unsatisfactoriness. James, does this help or are you even more confused? Metta, Rob M:-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "James" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Frank Kuan wrote: > > Hi James, > > Don't take dukkha so personally. Meaning, it's not > > "I" who suffers, or a "book" that suffers, or a > > "table" that suffers. It's just suffering. There is > > suffering, not "I am suffering". See the difference? > (Sorry it took me a while to respond. I have been pondering this > post and even called up some friends interested in Buddhism and we > discussed it. Sadly, they seem to see the difference in what you are > saying, but I do not. They concluded that it is because I take words > too literally and that I need to look at what you are saying beneath > the words. That this is a Zen-like statement that I don't get. And > I thought I was very Zen! :-) Oh well, maybe it will come to me in a > flash of insight. You see, the word 'suffering' is Present > Progressive and means that an action is repeating continuously. I > can see that a table can have the characteristics of: brown, solid, > and cool. But I cannot see how a table would be: browning, > solidifying, and cooling. Actually, the term 'suffering' used this > way seems to defy the reality of impermanence. Suffering for humans > is not a permanent feature; it changes, and can be escaped through > nibbana. Is it possible for a table to achieve nibbana? Hehehe… j/k > Just as when a window breaks it is breaking, but the breaking doesn't > last very long. A window can't be breaking and breaking and > breaking. I still don't see how a table could be suffering and > suffering and suffering; even using this definition.) > > It helps to think of dukkha, rather than *something or > > someone* suffering, as a characteristic of being > > unstable/imperfect/incapable of bringing happiness. > (Okay, now here you seem to be saying that the characteristic of > dukkha is conditional on the object because it cannot bring > satisfaction…it only brings dissatisfaction or suffering. But in > this case I am also confused but then how would the Buddha see the > table? Would the table then lose its characteristic of dukkha > because it wouldn't bring him any suffering. I thought this > characteristic had to be absolute and not just conditional. Again, I > am very confused) > No personal identity or personificaiton of an object that > > suffers needs to be attached. > (I still think to say that an object 'suffers' is adding a quality of > personification to that object. The very word is human-based. But, > then again, I may be being too literal. I really do want to > understand this subject. I hope that it doesn't sound like I am > taking this too personally, but maybe I am. Apologies if that is the > case.) > > In Pema, James > > In fact, that's why > > whatever has the nature of dukkha also has the nature > > of anatta (not self). > > 16540 From: robmoult Date: Wed Oct 30, 2002 11:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupa Has Dukkha? Hi James, I re-read my message and wanted to insert a clarification. --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robmoult" wrote: > Hi James, > > Let me see if I can help. > > Abhidhamma discussions tend to use a lot of Pali words. This is > because in the Abhidhamma, words have very specific technial > meanings and using common English would lead to confusion. > > "Dukkha" is an excellent example. "Dukkha" is often translated > as "suffering", but this is only one way of looking at "dukkha". I > recently read a translation where "dukkha" was translated > as "stress" and it opened up new doors of understanding to > see "dukkha" in this light (at least it did for me). > > Another translation of "dukkha", one that is more easily associated > with rupa, is "unsatisfactoriness". Why is rupa unsatisfactory? > Because it is impermanent (anicca). > > Do you remember the first "Crocodile Dundee"? There are a lot of > Aussies on this list, so I thought that I would throw this in :-). > There was a scene where Mick talked about the Aboriginal view of the > land, "It was here long before we were and will be here long after > we are gone. How can anybody talk about owning it?" > === Clarification Actually the Buddhist view is the reverse, "Rupa (visible object) lasts an incredibly short time so it doesn't make sense to talk about owning it. A more complicated was of looking at things is that there is no self that is capable of owning anyway. === > As an English teacher, you can probably help me; isn't "suffering" a > gerund (can work as a verb or a noun)? Perhaps it helps to think > of "dukkha" as a characteristic (noun), not as a verb. > > How would a Buddha perceive a table? Here is my understanding (it is > a bit complex). A Buddha would know (wise attention / yoniso > manisakara) that there was a visible object impinging on the eye- > sense. He would know that multiple impingements had taken place and > that form was constrcted as a concept. He would know that his mind > had attached the label "table" to this form. Where does "dukkha" fit > in? A Buddha would know that the characteristic of the visible > object (rupa) is unsatisfactoriness. > > James, does this help or are you even more confused? > > Metta, > Rob M:-) > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "James" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Frank Kuan wrote: > > > Hi James, > > > Don't take dukkha so personally. Meaning, it's not > > > "I" who suffers, or a "book" that suffers, or a > > > "table" that suffers. It's just suffering. There is > > > suffering, not "I am suffering". See the difference? > > (Sorry it took me a while to respond. I have been pondering this > > post and even called up some friends interested in Buddhism and we > > discussed it. Sadly, they seem to see the difference in what you > are > > saying, but I do not. They concluded that it is because I take > words > > too literally and that I need to look at what you are saying > beneath > > the words. That this is a Zen-like statement that I don't get. > And > > I thought I was very Zen! :-) Oh well, maybe it will come to me > in a > > flash of insight. You see, the word 'suffering' is Present > > Progressive and means that an action is repeating continuously. I > > can see that a table can have the characteristics of: brown, > solid, > > and cool. But I cannot see how a table would be: browning, > > solidifying, and cooling. Actually, the term 'suffering' used > this > > way seems to defy the reality of impermanence. Suffering for > humans > > is not a permanent feature; it changes, and can be escaped through > > nibbana. Is it possible for a table to achieve nibbana? Hehehe… > j/k > > Just as when a window breaks it is breaking, but the breaking > doesn't > > last very long. A window can't be breaking and breaking and > > breaking. I still don't see how a table could be suffering and > > suffering and suffering; even using this definition.) > > > It helps to think of dukkha, rather than *something or > > > someone* suffering, as a characteristic of being > > > unstable/imperfect/incapable of bringing happiness. > > (Okay, now here you seem to be saying that the characteristic of > > dukkha is conditional on the object because it cannot bring > > satisfaction…it only brings dissatisfaction or suffering. But in > > this case I am also confused but then how would the Buddha see the > > table? Would the table then lose its characteristic of dukkha > > because it wouldn't bring him any suffering. I thought this > > characteristic had to be absolute and not just conditional. > Again, I > > am very confused) > > No personal identity or personificaiton of an object that > > > suffers needs to be attached. > > (I still think to say that an object 'suffers' is adding a quality > of > > personification to that object. The very word is human-based. > But, > > then again, I may be being too literal. I really do want to > > understand this subject. I hope that it doesn't sound like I am > > taking this too personally, but maybe I am. Apologies if that is > the > > case.) > > > > In Pema, James > > > > In fact, that's why > > > whatever has the nature of dukkha also has the nature > > > of anatta (not self). > > > 16541 From: Uan Chih Liu Date: Wed Oct 30, 2002 11:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupa Has Dukkha? Hi James and Frank, First of all, thank you, James, for rasing this question up; it forced me to re-examine my understanding of dukkha. I want to make sure I understand this correctly, too. First of all, it says "all conditioned dhammas are 'dukkha'", NOT all conditioned dhammas "have" dukkha. So all conditioned dhammas are not "suffer-ing" (verb.), but all conditioned dhammas are suffering (a noun). And Frank, please help me in this, they are suffering because of our ignorance of seeing things as they really are, because of our clinging to permanence. And as all dhammas are impermanent, they are 'dukkha', as long as our ignorance exists and as long as our clinging exists. Am I getting it right? WL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank Kuan" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 7:52 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupa Has Dukkha? > Hi James, > Don't take dukkha so personally. Meaning, it's not > "I" who suffers, or a "book" that suffers, or a > "table" that suffers. It's just suffering. There is > suffering, not "I am suffering". See the difference? > It helps to think of dukkha, rather than *something or > someone* suffering, as a characteristic of being > unstable/imperfect/incapable of bringing happiness. No > personal identity or personificaiton of an object that > suffers needs to be attached. In fact, that's why > whatever has the nature of dukkha also has the nature > of anatta (not self). > > -fk > > --- James wrote: > > Hello Friends, > > I have begun reading "Abhidhamma in daily life" to > > learn about the > > Abhidhamma, of which I am quite ignorant, and I have > > a question. I > > was told this was the group to post this question. > > The first chapter > > states that all conditioned dhammas (Nama and Rupa) > > have the > > characteristics of dukkha and anatta, "All > > conditioned dhammas: > > citta, cetasika and rupa, are impermanent (anicca). > > All conditioned > > dhammas are 'dukkha' since they are impermanent. All > > dhammas are > > anatta, not-self " > > > > But it states prior to this, "Seeing is, for > > example, a type of nama; > > it experiences visible object. Visible object itself > > is rupa; it does > > not experience anything." My question is: If rupa > > doesn't experience > > anything, how can it have the characteristic of > > dukkha? I thought > > that dukkha was a component of the mind.suffering or > > stress. Is this > > a different type of dukkha found in rupa? I don't > > understand how > > impermanence equals dukkha in an inanimate object. > > > > For example, in Spanish, objects are given either > > the qualities of > > masculine or feminine. But we know that a book is > > not > > really `feminine', nor is a door `masculine'. So > > how can a book have > > the characteristic of dukkha (suffering) or a door > > the characteristic > > of dukkha (suffering)? I won't even begin to ask > > about anatta > > because that is a really confusing aspect when > > applied to material > > objects. First I want to understand dukkha and > > maybe I can then > > tackle anatta in rupa objects. > > > > Does anyone have any input on this question? I feel > > that I must > > understand this basic aspect before I delve further > > into the > > Abhidhamma. Thank you in advance for any help > > offered. > > > > Metta, James > > > > ps. If it does turn out that rupa doesn't really > > have the > > characteristic of dukkha, does that mean the entire > > Abhidhamma is > > invalid? Or can this be overlooked? > > > > 16542 From: Sarah Date: Wed Oct 30, 2002 11:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 14, Comm. heavy going Hi Azita, I don’t have anything much to add - I know you understand all the real reason for feeling discouraged, uncertain and having aversion. You may like to look under Useful Posts under ‘Discouraged?’ I think everyone goes through these phases and they don’t last either;-) We see others having fun and compare with mana or dosa - usually thinking of self rather than any mudita (sympathetic joy) in their good fortune. We have so little understanding of vipaka. Maybe they’re busy thinking the same about you;-) Like you, I socialize very little - we can have useful discussion here. I was so impressed when Frank, for all his playboy tendencies, said that his idea of fun on a Saturday nite was to sit at home reading Samyutta Nikaya. (Hope I got all that about right, Frank). I suggest you just read the posts that are helpful to you at this time, Azita and come back to the ‘heavy’ ones later if you feel inclined to do so. Conditions change and so do the areas of discussion that seem most useful, I find. Ayatanas used to leave me pretty cold and now I follow with great interest......As for bhavanga cittas.....I used to skip the chapter in ADL I remember;-) I wonder if the book you are reading is based on ‘The birth-Stories of the Ten Bodhisattas’- I have the translation of this by Ven Saddhatissa. It’s a slim volume from PTS which you might enjoy too. I’d bring it to show you in Bkk at the end of the month, but I just travel with light hand-luggage and no books for quick get-aways at airports and easy travel. (Rob M- Jon says he’ll just take 3 copies of the abhidhamma text which we can share with Rob K and Nina and show others. Thank you in advance). Anyway, it’s always good to hear your comments. Chris and others may be able to add more useful ones. I expect you’re just very busy before your big trip and working hard, I know. metta, Sarah p.s the Cairns yoga community, esp the Astanga community, all seem to be heading for Hong Kong these days and they all know you. Katrina now. 16543 From: rahula_80 Date: Thu Oct 31, 2002 0:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] mara sutta, Rahula Hi, I try to analyse: > naapara.m itthattaayaa': na apara.m: not further. apara.m: future state, > further. > itthattaayaa: ittthatta.m: in the present state of becoming, life in these > conditions. This is info of PTS, but it is not complete I am sure. > Maybe the experts know more about it (hint). We meet this phrase often in > the suttas. > I would translate as: there is no more future life. Itthatta is ittha + tta (suffix-tta) Used to describe state. But how do we get itthattaayaa from itthatta. 16544 From: Sarah Date: Thu Oct 31, 2002 0:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Home again, changes, plus Tom Hi Sarah F, Thanks so much for checking in with us again.Sounds like you had a very exciting trip and I hope Tom responds as well and perhaps we can encourage more family members;-). --- forsyth_1981 wrote: > > Life is a bit strange since I came back to Brisbane. Nothing seems > the same as before I left. I was only away a month, so it hasn't > really changed that much. I seem to be different and have grown > apart from many of my friends. I don't think they've noticed > though. I mention this because I read buddhism teaches that > everything changes, all the time, so maybe that means 'inside' a > person - feelings, attitudes - as well as 'outside' - others, events, > things? .... I quite understand how you feel and remember well when I was in my 20s and used to travel and then come back and feel just like you. Perhaps one's interests and priorities change and one tends to associate more with friends who share values and new interests/concerns. As you suggest, even our feelings and attitudes change and sometimes we may just be following old patterns out of attachment and habit, I find. This has always been something of a problem or hindrance for me.I've always been very attached to friends and friendships and even here on DSG I have a hard time when people move on or I lose contact. We learn in Buddhism that the cause of suffering is clinging or attachment and so we try to keep what brings joy and happiness, such as a sight or sound or taste, when already it has fallen away. Hope the exams and work go well, Sarah and perhaps you can read 'Buddh in D.Life' out loud here, asking any qus or making comments as you go along. How nice it would be if you were joining us all in Thailand! Next time, perhaps;-) Sarah A ======== 16545 From: James Mitchell Date: Thu Oct 31, 2002 0:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupa Has Dukkha? Rob, WOW!! I could just kick myself that I didn't find this group earlier! You people are super smart! Yes, this clarifies the issue for me immensely. Now I see what you are saying and what the Abihdhamma is saying about dukkha. It was a problem in my thought process stemming from word translation. I am not confused anymore, thanks to you. You see, I was thinking that ‘dukkha’ had to be an intrinsic quality of rupa; that it had to be a quality separate and independent of the viewer or observer…almost a quality to the sub-atomic level. But with this new definition, which I pray is correct, I can see that the quality of dukkha is a quality that is observant-based. Just as one will see a table as brown, solid, cool, etc…they will also see it, if as brilliant as you Rob, as dukkha or unsatisfactory. So, frogs are green, and slimy, and dukkha; chicks are yellow, and soft, and dukkha; pumpkins are orange, and spooky, and dukkha. (BOO! :-) Makes perfect sense to me now; again, I have the tendency to be too literal. Give me the wrong word and I don’t know up from down. Now, brilliant Rob, if you can just explain the anatta of rupa to me in a way my literal mind can understand, I will be indebted to you for life! :-) With Pema, James ===== Two men look out the same prison bars; one sees mud and the other stars. ~ Frederick Langbridge ~ 16546 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Oct 31, 2002 0:06am Subject: Re: Introduction ---Dear James, Thanks for your humorous intro. In a sense the whole dhamma is a rebellion against what we (that is wrong view) have always believed to be true. I think the Abhidhamma and insight are really synonymous ; as even if one is not fully skilled in theoretical knowledge what insight must see is the difference between nama and rupa. And that is the function and outcome of Abhidhamma. For your question on dukkha consider the suttas where the Buddha suggests that what is impermanent must be dukkha - and that applies to rupa as well as nama. Samsara vata (the round of births and deaths ) is the arising and passing of the five khandas (aggregates); so even the most pleasant feeling as regards nama is also dukkha as vipiranara dukkha (sp?) and sankhara dukkha (although not dukkha dukkha). Robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., "James" wrote: > I have a rebellious streak that runs contrary to > monasticism. > > How I Found my way here: I was a member of Dhamma List and this group > was suggested as a place where I could learn about the Abihdhamma. I > was suspended in DL for one week for outrageous, insulting posts and > then I quit. I am reformed now and will not do that in this list. > > > > With Metta, James 16547 From: James Date: Thu Oct 31, 2002 0:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupa Has Dukkha? WL, You are quite welcome for the question. As the saying goes: It is by teaching that we learn best. I am your appreciative student. Thank you for your clarification. Yes, there is a big difference between 'are' and 'have' in this instance. One means an observable characteristic and the other means an intrinsic characteristic. The rest of your post is directed to Frank so I will let him answer when he returns. Why he isn't glued to his computer till all hours of the night like the rest of us, I don't understand! :-) j/k Love, James --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Uan Chih Liu" wrote: > Hi James and Frank, > First of all, thank you, James, for rasing this question up; > it forced me to re-examine my understanding of dukkha. > I want to make sure I understand this correctly, too. > > First of all, it says "all conditioned dhammas are 'dukkha'", > NOT all conditioned dhammas "have" dukkha. So > all conditioned dhammas are not "suffer-ing" (verb.), but all > conditioned dhammas are suffering (a noun). And Frank, > please help me in this, they are suffering because of our > ignorance of seeing things as they really are, because of our > clinging to permanence. And as all dhammas are > impermanent, they are 'dukkha', as long as our ignorance > exists and as long as our clinging exists. Am I getting it right? > > WL 16548 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Oct 31, 2002 0:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 14, Comm. heavy going Hi Azita, No whinging at all, thank you for sharing your feelings with us.:)) They are really very normal and to be expected from time to time - you work in an area where you know life is serious and fragile. You know bad things can happen when least expected, and not to those who on the surface 'deserve' it, that there are no guarantees of safety from the vicissitudes of life. Possibly you are surrounded by people who believe it all happens to others on the TV news. You work where the majority follow a theistic religion, or none at all. Generally they don't feel the same urgency that many practicing Buddhists feel about the precious rarity of a human rebirth and the need not to waste scarce time. I understand what you say about some you know just talking s--t. I'm hanging on until the end of the month when we are all together in Thailand. We'll get such a Zap! of metta and Dhamma discussions from kalyanna-mitta that we should be able to return to Oz refreshed and ready to face daily life again... come what may! I was reading today Bhikkhu Bodhi's 'Association with the Wise'. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/news/essay26.html "The Maha-mangala Sutta, the Great Discourse on Blessings, is one of the most popular Buddhist suttas, included in all the standard repertories of Pali devotional chants. The sutta begins when a deity of stunning beauty, having descended to earth in the stillness of the night, approaches the Blessed One in the Jeta Grove and asks about the way to the highest blessings. In the very first stanza of his reply the Buddha states that the highest blessing comes from avoiding fools and associating with the wise (asevana ca balanam, panditanan ca sevana). Since the rest of the sutta goes on to sketch all the different aspects of human felicity, both mundane and spiritual, the assignment of association with the wise to the opening stanza serves to emphasize a key point: that progress along the path of the Dhamma hinges on making the right choices in our friendships." I admit to feeling a little envious of those who meet another Buddhist face to face even monthly. But then I think, it could be worse, I could have missed finding the Dhamma at all. Much gratitude for dsg, ay sister? much metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., azita gill wrote: > --- Sarah wrote: > Hi Larry, > > [snip] > > > We may think we have no fear and dread of death > like > > Subrahma has. > > However, while there is clinging to self, there is > > bound to be fear and > > dread in various ways to what is occurring or what > > will occur in future to > > oneself or those one holds dear. > > > > Any comments? > > > > Sarah > > ======= > > Yes, I want to comment on this. I feel more > uncertain and insecure the more I learn. I see > friends, workmates, family, running around seemingly > having a 'good time', getting on with their lives, so > to speak, whereas I seem to have lost interest and > some sort of 'spontaneous joy' about everyday things. > Unpleasant feeling, got to be dosa, but it does 'get > me down' sometimes. I don't visit friends much > anymore, cos I think they just talk s..t [excuse me, > but I'm telling it like it is - for me]. And maybe > today's just a bad day!!!! > > Have been trying to keep up with some of the > recent posts, but have found them heavy going and very > wordy. re-reading what I've just written has made me > feel like a 'whinger', not a good thing if you're > Aussie! > > On a more positive note, I must comment on a > book I'm reading 'The Great Chronicle of Buddhas' by > Ven.Mingun Sayadaw, a Burmese monk, now deceased. > This pub. has given me a much better idea of how great > the Buddhas really are. How extremely hard a > Boddisatva has to work to become a Buddha, how > immesurably long it takes. > > May you all be happy, > > Azita > 16549 From: Sarah Date: Thu Oct 31, 2002 0:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vimuttattaa Hi Rahula, --- rahula_80 wrote: > Hi, > > I think I am close to solving my problem on vimuttattaa. .... Glad to hear it. ... Just sth that may be helpful on this: > 2. See "No Inner Core" by Sayadaw Silananda > http://www.buddha.per.sg/dharma01/anatta1.htm > > Chapter - Misunderstanding Anatta > http://www.buddha.per.sg/dharma01/anatta6.htm > > It says: > Another passage mistranslated by Coomaraswamy and Horner is one > found : in Visuddhimagga: "buddhatta ... Buddho." They translate > it as, "Buddha is awakened Self." But the correct translation of > the Pali is, "He is the Buddha because he knows or he has known." > The word buddhatta is not a compound so of buddha and atta, but one > word, buddha, with the suffix - tta combined with the ablative case > termination, a, which means `because of'. The word buddhatta therefore > means `because of the state of being one who knows'. > My question are: > > 1. Can anyone explain what is the connection between "ablative > case termination" and "because of"? .... From Warder p89: “The ablative of cause is very important, and is always used in philosophical statements;- ‘vedanaapaccayaa ta,nhaa, ‘desire is from the sensation cause’, ‘desire is caused by sensation’” Other examples given. On the next page it also mentions that ‘freed from (from slavery etc) is followed by the ablative: “citta.m aasavehi vimuccati’- ‘the mind is freed from the influxes’. ..... > 2. If it is the ablative, > shouldn't "...vimuttattaa .thitattaa.m....." be translated as "From > freed, it is stable......" .... I can’t make any comment on the grammar (and don’t have the rest of the context in front of me). By being freed, it is stable...(referring to the consciousness) (i.e stable or firm from any kilesa) Let me quote the line I mentioned the other day from the metta sutta com on ti.t.thanti: “They stand (ti.t.thanti), thus they are firm (thaavaraa); this is a designation for Arahants, who have abandoned craving and fear.” Back to your original passage: abandoning of attachment -> no new kamma -> no new formations or rebirth -> freedom from suffering -> firm in kusala, abandoned kilesa ->nibbana Rahula, I’m mostly playing with the words and know far less Pali than you. I can see your approach is quite a good way to learn, however (you're teaching me), and appreciate your determination to really understand these key phrases. I will pass your messages to B.Bodhi as requested too. As Nina also suggested, there are Pali scholars on the other list who would give better assistance on Pali grammar, though I personally find it interesting to hear your conclusions and research in the context of dhamma discussion and the meaning of phrases and passages. I think we agree on the interpretation of the passage in question. Best wishes, Sarah ====== 16550 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Oct 31, 2002 1:08am Subject: Hello James :) Hi James, May I add my welcome to dsg. :) A couple of small points - there are at least three, maybe four, Robs on the List - we usually differentiate by adding the last initial e.g. Rob M or Rob K. As well, a large number of the members of dsg don't live in the US or Europe - lots also live in Thailand, Japan, Hong Kong, Singapore, Malaysia, Sri Lanka, Bali, Hawaii and Australia - so though it is early morning where you are, it is only early evening or afternoon where a lot of the rest of us are. (7.00 p.m. in Brisbane, Australia on a hot spring night as I listen to the Flying Foxes (fruit bats) in the trees outside.) Enjoying your posts, metta, Christine 16551 From: rahula_80 Date: Thu Oct 31, 2002 1:12am Subject: [dsg] Re: Vimuttattaa Hi Sarah, Thanks. I think you answered my questions well. Thanks again, Rahula 16552 From: robmoult Date: Thu Oct 31, 2002 2:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupa Has Dukkha? Hi James, Sorry about this, but I'm going to mess with your mind a bit. But, if you are into Zen, then you are used to having your mind messed with. It is correct to say that "rupa" has a characteristic of "dukkha", but it is important to understand what is "rupa". Again, we "Abhidhammers" use a Pali term for "rupa" because any English rendering would generate confusion. There are 28 different types of "rupa", including visible object, hardness and sound. Sorry to say that tables, frogs, chicks and pumpkins didn't make the list :-) These things are concepts, not "rupa". My advice is to store this factoid in the back of your mind and come back to it later (when the book discusses rupa). It is easy to see that a table is "not self" (anatta); but what about your own body? We are used to thinking in terms of "my hand" or "my foot". Anatta says that there is no "my" behind the visible object that we label "hand" or the visible object that we label "foot". The bulk of Abhidhamma focuses on analysis; breaking down things into their component parts (especially, the five aggregates). The purpose of this breaking down is to look at each of the fundamental parts (paramattha dhammas) and see that there is "no self" in any of them. Since each of the aggregates are impermanent, conditioned and lacking in self, the concept of a self is an illusion. In the left frontal lobe of the brain is the "orientation association area"; one of the most active parts of the brain. Sensory inputs are routed through this part of the brain where a concept of "self" is created to put everything into context. In other words, our brains are hard-wired to create the illusion of self. Experiments have shown that when Zen masters meditate or Franciscan nuns pray devoutly, bloodflow to that part of the brain reduces dramatically (much less activity) and the subject has super- normal experiences. In other words, once the illusion of "I" is surpressed (and it can be done through mental training), we experience a "higher reality". Though the bulk of the Abhidhamma focuses on analysis, the last part of the Abhidhamma focuses on synthesis; how all these paramattha dhammas condition each other. This last section, conditional relations, is the platform necessary to understand dependent origination. I bring this up because some people prefer to think in an analytic mode while others prefer to work in a synthetic mode. If you are in the latter category, then you must "wait for your candy" until you have fully understood the paramattha dhamma components. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., James Mitchell wrote: > Rob, > > WOW!! I could just kick myself that I didn't find > this group earlier! You people are super smart! Yes, > this clarifies the issue for me immensely. Now I see > what you are saying and what the Abihdhamma is saying > about dukkha. It was a problem in my thought process > stemming from word translation. I am not confused > anymore, thanks to you. > > You see, I was thinking that `dukkha' had to be an > intrinsic quality of rupa; that it had to be a quality > separate and independent of the viewer or > observer…almost a quality to the sub-atomic level. > But with this new definition, which I pray is correct, > I can see that the quality of dukkha is a quality that > is observant-based. Just as one will see a table as > brown, solid, cool, etc…they will also see it, if as > brilliant as you Rob, as dukkha or unsatisfactory. > So, frogs are green, and slimy, and dukkha; chicks are > yellow, and soft, and dukkha; pumpkins are orange, and > spooky, and dukkha. (BOO! :-) > > Makes perfect sense to me now; again, I have the > tendency to be too literal. Give me the wrong word > and I don't know up from down. Now, brilliant Rob, if > you can just explain the anatta of rupa to me in a way > my literal mind can understand, I will be indebted to > you for life! :-) > > With Pema, James > > > ===== > Two men look out the same prison bars; one sees mud and the other stars. > > ~ Frederick Langbridge ~ > 16553 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Oct 31, 2002 2:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 14, Comm. heavy going > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., azita gill wrote: > > --- Sarah wrote: > Hi Larry, > > > [snip] > > > > We may think we have no fear and dread of death > > like > > > Subrahma has. > > > However, while there is clinging to self, there is > > > bound to be fear and > > > dread in various ways to what is occurring or what > > > will occur in future to > > > oneself or those one holds dear. > > > > > > Any comments? > > > > > > Sarah > > > ======= > > > Yes, I want to comment on this. I feel more > > uncertain and insecure the more I learn. Hi Sarah, Azita and Christine, Just to add to the comments: Today I was reading the Cambodia Talks that Nina posted some time ago. K Sujin was saying; "However, the panna that is insight knowledge knows all realities through the mind-door. Realities appear one at a time through the mind-door. How does one feel about that? "Jarurin: Perhaps one is frightened. "Sujin: It depends on conditions. It is an experience that never before arose in life, but panna at that moment is able to know that characteristic as nama, and that is vipassana nana. One may be frightened or astonished while thinking why realities appear in this way, because one never thought that the world one is familiar with does, in the ultimate sense, not exist. Usually the whole wide world appears, because one has eyes and ears and thus this world one is familiar with appears. It appears in this way until the time comes when the world appears as empty; then there is only the citta which knows the characteristics of dhammas that appear, and which knows that the realities arise and appear because there are the appropriate conditions. Panna will clearly realize that rupa appears through the sense-door and subsequently through the mind-door. This is according to the truth. "The saying: 'There is nothing, then there is something and after that there is nothing to be found', is according to the truth. " (end quote) Kind regards Ken H 16554 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Oct 31, 2002 3:50am Subject: Re: Home again, changes, plus Tom ---Dear sarah, Nice to see both you and Tom on the list. My mother joined a copule of years ago but never got around to reading the posts! In dhammastudygroup@y..., "forsyth_1981" wrote: > I mention this because I read buddhism teaches that > everything changes, all the time, so maybe that means 'inside' a > person - feelings, attitudes - as well as 'outside' - others, events, > things? ______________ In the suttas the Buddha says that for the person unintsructed in the Dhamma because things change (as you say inside and out) they become despondent. But for the wise person because things change they are happy. This is a big subject but basically is because the change -seen with the eye of wisdom- is confirming of the dhamma, and comes with detachment. Robert 16555 From: ajahn_paul Date: Thu Oct 31, 2002 5:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupa Has Dukkha? Hi all, after reading all the post related to this topic, i think the problem is from the very first translation yrs ago. Dukkha always being translated as sufferring, or anything in a negative way. we should think Dukkha in another way,,,, [[[what is causing sufferring]]]. Me and some of the friends here had been already discuss on this issue, but too bad that i cant remember the topic. U can try to find that out, and i think that can help a little! ^^ 16556 From: James Date: Thu Oct 31, 2002 6:32am Subject: Re: Rupa Has Dukkha? Hi Rob M, Hmmmm…just when I am thinking I understand, you pull the rug out from under me! :-) Okay, I guess I have belabored this question enough. I will delve further into the book with only partial understanding of the concepts. Maybe things will get clearer as I go along. That never worked for me in math, but maybe this time I will get lucky. However, I am given new hope with your explanation of the purpose of the left frontal lobe. That information is fascinating and I have never come across that research before. Now I know, if I just don't `get it' after reading the book, I could always opt for a frontal lobotomy! hehehe… Metta, James --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robmoult" wrote: > Hi James, > > Sorry about this, but I'm going to mess with your mind a bit. But, > if you are into Zen, then you are used to having your mind messed > with. > > It is correct to say that "rupa" has a characteristic of "dukkha", > but it is important to understand what is "rupa". Again, > we "Abhidhammers" use a Pali term for "rupa" because any English > rendering would generate confusion. > > There are 28 different types of "rupa", including visible object, > hardness and sound. Sorry to say that tables, frogs, chicks and > pumpkins didn't make the list :-) These things are concepts, > not "rupa". My advice is to store this factoid in the back of your > mind and come back to it later (when the book discusses rupa). > > It is easy to see that a table is "not self" (anatta); but what > about your own body? We are used to thinking in terms of "my hand" > or "my foot". Anatta says that there is no "my" behind the visible > object that we label "hand" or the visible object that we > label "foot". > > The bulk of Abhidhamma focuses on analysis; breaking down things > into their component parts (especially, the five aggregates). The > purpose of this breaking down is to look at each of the fundamental > parts (paramattha dhammas) and see that there is "no self" in any of > them. Since each of the aggregates are impermanent, conditioned and > lacking in self, the concept of a self is an illusion. > > In the left frontal lobe of the brain is the "orientation > association area"; one of the most active parts of the brain. > Sensory inputs are routed through this part of the brain where a > concept of "self" is created to put everything into context. In > other words, our brains are hard-wired to create the illusion of > self. Experiments have shown that when Zen masters meditate or > Franciscan nuns pray devoutly, bloodflow to that part of the brain > reduces dramatically (much less activity) and the subject has super- > normal experiences. In other words, once the illusion of "I" is > surpressed (and it can be done through mental training), we > experience a "higher reality". > > Though the bulk of the Abhidhamma focuses on analysis, the last part > of the Abhidhamma focuses on synthesis; how all these paramattha > dhammas condition each other. This last section, conditional > relations, is the platform necessary to understand dependent > origination. I bring this up because some people prefer to think in > an analytic mode while others prefer to work in a synthetic mode. If > you are in the latter category, then you must "wait for your candy" > until you have fully understood the paramattha dhamma components. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > 16557 From: James Date: Thu Oct 31, 2002 6:44am Subject: Re: Hello James :) Hi Christine, Thanks for the welcome. Oops...I didn't know most of the members were outside of the United States. But I guess that does explain the depth of understanding/study evident here that most Americans lack. Thank you also for the Rob explanation. That would have confused me. Side Note: Thanks for the reference to bats. Today is Halloween in the U.S., one of my favorite holidays, and now I have thoughts of bats and pumpkins. Unfortunately, with Rob M's explanation of rupa I am starting to think of them as broken up into a lot of little 'rupa' and they are not even 'bats' or 'pumpkins' anymore. Just a gory mess! :-) Geez! Buddhism is spoiling my favorite holiday! :-) Take care Christine. Metta, James --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hi James, > > May I add my welcome to dsg. :) > A couple of small points - there are at least three, maybe four, Robs > on the List - we usually differentiate by adding the last initial > e.g. Rob M or Rob K. > As well, a large number of the members of dsg don't live in the US > or Europe - lots also live in Thailand, Japan, Hong Kong, > Singapore, Malaysia, Sri Lanka, Bali, Hawaii and Australia - so > though it is early morning where you are, it is only early evening or > afternoon where a lot of the rest of us are. (7.00 p.m. in Brisbane, > Australia on a hot spring night as I listen to the Flying Foxes > (fruit bats) in the trees outside.) > Enjoying your posts, > metta, > Christine 16558 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 31, 2002 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: third stage of insight Dear Rob K, I have more on the third stage. If hardness appears, and there is some (coarse) awareness, I do not see of what group there is awareness: hardness is in a kalapa of rupas, but the others do not appear. Also, the other khandhas, nama khandhas like feeling or citta do not seem to appear, or is that what does happen? The five khandhas together? But nama is not mixed with rupa at that stage, as I remarked before. Nina. op 23-10-2002 04:05 schreef rjkjp1 op rjkjp1@y...: 16559 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 31, 2002 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Book with similes Dear Rob M, Thank you for your kind offer, but my problem is that I am evermore running out of time. I am doing trs of Perfections as well as Foundation Bulletin with subtle points. I prefer to look at Rob K's copy when in Bgk where I have no computer work. Thanks anyway, Nina. op 29-10-2002 20:55 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: Fortunately, I > found another book, "The Essence of Buddha Abhidhamma" by Dr. Mehm > Tin Mon, which gives all the similies. 16560 From: James Date: Thu Oct 31, 2002 11:04am Subject: Ugliness (Re: [dsg] Way 17, Comm) > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > The body, in and of itself, is neither beautiful nor ugly in the sense > of good or bad. It is just what it is - unless we cling to it as being a > certain way. Generally, what we find physically beautiful in a human or > animal body is, when not just culturally determined, probably closely tied to > our recognition of that body being vital, fuctioning properly, in good > health, and suited to its function. [This last part of "suited to its > function" also applies to things other than bodies"] And the opposite is > generally true with regard to finding a body to be ugly. It is only here that > there lies some objectivity to beauty and ugliness. > There is nothing wrong with decay, change, impermanence - unless we > cling to a momentary state. All conditioned dhammas fail to remain. There is > no problem with that except for our craving for things to be otherwise. As I > see it, the closer to being enlightened (or the more one is enlightened), the > more delight - free and easy delight - will be taken in all dhammas. But this > delight will be a universal, nondiscriminative one. For when a healthy, > vital, well functioning body is seen, at the very same time it will be known > that it is impermanent and subject to decay and death; so even the > "beautiful" is "ugly". One problem is that the words 'beautiful' and 'ugly' > are judgemental and carry the connotations of craving and aversion. > ------------------------------------------------------ Hi Howard, I agree with you, and with an additional reason. I don't believe that lay people shouldn't be contemplating the body as `ugly' or `unsatisfactory'; I believe this type of meditation is only for monks and only under close supervision. Without the renunciation of a monk, training of a monk, and a qualified teacher handy, such a meditation is likely to lead to self-doubt, low self-esteem, depression, and possibly anorexia nervosa or bulimia . I think it is best just to view the body with equanimity. But I could be wrong. Maybe I am in denial and just don't want to see my body as ugly…after all, I didn't pay for my gym membership for nothing! :-) j/k Metta, James 16561 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Oct 31, 2002 11:25am Subject: Re: Practice on DSG Dear KenH, RobK, and all, Thank you for your posts in this thread. I found so much to consider in them. Which is why it is so long before a reply. :) KenH, I appreciated your answers, very clear as usual, and thanks for mentioning the Maha-cattarisaka Sutta. It is at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn117.html Many of my questions, one way or the other, come back to the answer of Anatta, Conditions, and No Control. Reminds me of a Terry Pratchett conception of the Solar System in his Discworld books - a flat world balanced on a few of elephants standing on the back of a System Sized Turtle, and from there it's turtles 'all the way down'.... in real life, it's right understanding of anatta, conditions and 'no control' 'all the way down'. I agree with you when you say, "mostly everyone acts out of what they think is pleasurable", but I think many people wouldn't really care if it wasn't pleasurable - if only they were absolutely certain of the way. There seem to be so many nowadays saying 'this is the truth, the others are wrong and have distorted, misunderstood, or added to the Teachings', or 'take the 'best bits' from everywhere - whatever you feel is truth - merge it all together, it's all the same in the end' What you say is considerably harder: "Like it or not, we have to accept that the true practice is right understanding all the way." RobK, you say: "I think right practice is nothing other than the arising of panna which experiences whatever is present." Your post sent me diving to refresh my understanding of Sati and Panna and I surfaced nearly a week later ... [A grasshopper mind is not a structured or organised mind, and may arrive a little after everyone else.] I took out 'Cetasikas' read the chapters on Sati and Panna, and how they were two of the five 'indriyas' or spiritual faculties which should be developed, and went to read up on confidence (saddha ), energy (viriya), and concentration (ekaggata ). After that I followed a few other topics that caught my interest as well... The eightfold path seems to get harder the more I learn, which is sometimes discouraging, especially when I want to see some progress (not necessarily quick) - and when I hear 'guarantees' of progress elsewhere (four weeks sitting in Myanmar and come out a Sotapanna for sure. Imagine that!). "Kotthita then asked sariputta "If right understanding is forwarded, by how many factors, your reverence, does there come to be the fruit of freedom..." Sariputta listed 5 factors: moral habit, hearing true dhama, discussion, calm, and vision. The commentary notes that discussion [with the wise] helps to give up wrong practice." - which I have proven in my own life to be Truth, not sure what 'vision' means here. But I find it hard to understand how, as sati is a cetasika and ephemeral and is therefore not possible to direct or maintain, how then can we choose, direct and maintain mindfulness when hearing profound Dhamma. Isn't Dhamma as much an object as the breath? Or is it something else that is in operation here? metta, Christine 16562 From: Date: Thu Oct 31, 2002 6:32am Subject: Re: Ugliness (Re: [dsg] Way 17, Comm) Hi, James - In a message dated 10/31/02 2:06:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > I agree with you, and with an additional reason. I don't believe > that lay people shouldn't be contemplating the body as `ugly' > or `unsatisfactory'; I believe this type of meditation is only for > monks and only under close supervision. Without the renunciation of > a monk, training of a monk, and a qualified teacher handy, such a > meditation is likely to lead to self-doubt, low self-esteem, > depression, and possibly anorexia nervosa or bulimia . I think it is > best just to view the body with equanimity. But I could be wrong. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I think your monk-layperson distinction is valid, and for the reason you cite, namely constant supervision. Seeing the body as ugly/repulsive can, under careful conditions, serve as an effective skillful means, but with those conditions lacking, it carries the danger of leading to aversion and repression. -------------------------------------------------- > > Maybe I am in denial and just don't want to see my body as ugly…after > all, I didn't pay for my gym membership for nothing! :-) j/k > ---------------------------------------------------- ;-)) ---------------------------------------------------- > > Metta, James > > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16563 From: Date: Thu Oct 31, 2002 3:27pm Subject: Way 19, Comm. "The Way of Mindfulness"by Soma Thera http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html Commentary continued on: [why] four arousings of mindfulness Further these Four Arousings of Mindfulness were taught not only for the purpose of casting out the four illusions, but for getting rid of the four floods, bonds, outflowings, knots, clingings, wrong courses, and the penetration of fourfold nutriment, too. This is according to the method of exegesis in the Nettipakarana. In the commentary it is said that by way of remembering and of meeting in one thing, the Arousing of Mindfulness is only one; and that it is fourfold when regarded as a subject of meditation. [Tika} "By way of remembering": by way of the reflection of actions of skill, and so forth, of body, speech, and thought. [T] "Meeting in one thing" = union in the one-natured Nibbana. To a city with four gates, mental objects coming from the East with goods produced in the east enter by the east gate... men coming from the South... men coming from the West... and men coming from the North with goods produced in the north enter by the north gate. Nibbana is like the city. The Real Supramundane Eightfold Path is like the city-gate. Body, mind, feelings and mental objects are like the four chief directions in space. Like the people coming from the East with goods produced in the east are those who enter Nibbana by means of body-contemplation through the Real Supramundane Path produced by the power of body-contemplation practiced in the fourteen ways. Like the people coming from the South... are those who enter... by means of feeling-contemplation... practiced in the nine ways. Like the people coming from the West... are those who enter... by means of consciousness-contemplation... practiced in the sixteen ways. Like the people coming from the North... are those who enter... by means of mental-object-contemplation... practiced in the five ways. [T] On account of the cause or on account of the sameness of entry into the one Nibbana, the Arousing of Mindfulness is said to be just one thing. The meeting in the one Nibbana of the various Arousings of Mindfulness is called the meeting in the one thing on account of participation in that one Nibbana or on account of their becoming all of a kind. 16564 From: Date: Thu Oct 31, 2002 3:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 14, Comm. Sarah, thanks for these details. I'm curious to learn more but I have enough stuff floating around in my head. Maybe later. Larry ps: why does sense restraint = purification of virtue? what is the meaning of sense restraint and purification of virtue? thanks L. --------------- 1.awakening factors:bojjhanga - enlightenment factors 2.virtues of the holy state: tapa - ascetic practices of the bhikkhu nec. for jhana realizations 3. restraint and relinquishment: sense-restraint, i.e purification of virtue and sabbanissagga (relinquishing all)-"everything comprised in formations is relinquished" "Besides the wakening factors of the truth, Besides the virtues of the holy state, Besides restraint and relinquishment full, I see nothing that can bless living beings." 16565 From: Date: Thu Oct 31, 2002 4:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 19, Comm. In the commentary it is said that by way of remembering and of meeting in one thing, the Arousing of Mindfulness is only one; and that it is fourfold when regarded as a subject of meditation. [Tika} "By way of remembering": by way of the reflection of actions of skill, and so forth, of body, speech, and thought. Hi all, Does anyone have the pali version of this? I was wondering if "skill" is a translation of kusala. If so it would reinforce previous research that indicates "sati" is the recollection of ethical considerations. Larry 16566 From: Date: Thu Oct 31, 2002 5:36pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation" Hi Kom, Good to see you again. I hope you can stick around and can participate in the discussion on the satipatthana sutta commentary. As for the debate that just won't go away, I think we are both headed in the same direction but maybe not on the same track. As I see it the real issue is what is meant by "direct experience". I'm sure we understand this in the same way. The point of contention is that you think there are no concepts involved in a direct experience but I do think concepts are involved. The reason I think so is that experience does not arise in discrete packages. It is a continuous, flowing, inter-related process. That inter-relatedness is necessary in order to make sense out of what is happening. And I would contend that the 'making sense' process always involves concepts. A concept is the only dhamma that _means_ something. Everything else is meaningless, literally. 'Meaning' is relationship and you can't make sense without relationship. Hence, you gotta have concepts. Now that doesn't mean you have to have words floating around in your head all the time. Though all of us do have words floating around in our head most of the time. My theory is that there are nuggets of meaning (concepts without words) that make our brains work [don't try to find this in the abhidhamma]. Anyway, that's not important. Back to 'direct experience'. By 'direct experience' I don't mean, necessarily, a magga citta. What I am mostly interested in is the direct experience that is part of the ordinary satipatthana procedure. I'm afraid there may be some disagreement on what is 'ordinary satipatthana procedure' so it would be very helpful if you could catch up on the commentary and give us your input. Whatever this procedure is, it is other than being absorbed in thinking about concepts. Do you have anything to add to this? I'm out of concepts. Larry 16567 From: James Date: Thu Oct 31, 2002 8:33pm Subject: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation" Larry and Kom, If you both don't mind, I would like to jump into this conversation. It is very fascinating and important I believe. Additionally, doing so will help to sort out my thoughts on this issue. So the question is concerning `realities' and `concepts'. As I see this discussion, and I may be incorrect, the question is whether one can experience a `reality' without applying a `concept' to it; or even if one should (concept being language, mental categorization without language, or distinguishing without language). Hmmm…kinda reminds me of the old saying, `Which came first? The chicken or the egg?" Answer: Doesn't matter which came first, they are both dependent on the other to exist. Consequently, I believe that the `direct experience of reality' is dependent on concepts and that concepts are dependent on the direct experience of reality. If a tree falls in the woods and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound? My answer: No. Why? Because the word `sound' means that someone heard it. If no one is present all the falling tree did was create vibrations in the air, it didn't make a sound. The same can be applied to the issue of `direct experience' without concepts. If a person sees a red car, but does not have the ability to `know' it as `red car', the person didn't see anything. What happened is that light struck the eye, messages were sent to the brain, the mental object of something unknown was formed, the brain didn't apply any concepts, and then the process ended without a single trace that anything happened. Direct experience without concepts is like a tree falling in the woods and no one is there to hear it. For all practical purposes, it didn't fall…nothing happened. Conversely, concepts cannot exist without direct experience. A man who is born without sight will never know what the color `red' looks like. He may approximate the sight of red to other things, like maybe the sound of a trumpet, but he will never know what red is until he has the direct experience of red. So what happens in everyday experience? In my estimation, nama conditions rupa and rupa conditions nama. Perception through the six sense doors (I include ESP) results in a concept being applied to that perception immediately after it is experienced. Additionally, superfluous concepts result in `conditioning' or `controlling' what one perceives. One is not the other, nor do they arise together (like perception and feeling) but they both depend on each other in human experience. So, how does this apply to meditation? Those who believe that vipassana or samatha meditation is supposed to be `the direct experience of reality' without concepts are actually practicing `trance meditation' and not practicing satipatthana. Concepts must be applied to meditation experience or wisdom will not arise. Nothing will arise. It will be like the tree that falls all alone. The formation of wisdom is dependent on both concepts and direct experience during meditation. Actually, that was the secret that the Buddha discovered that no one else had during his lifetime. His method was to make sure that this process was pure. In other words, to make sure that each sensation leads to a `right' concept and that superfluous concepts don't `defile' direct experience. If the Buddha had experienced Nibbana and the steps to get there without concepts, he would not have been able to explain how he got there. Actually, he would not have been able to get there. Concepts followed him the whole way, as did direct experience. Even the highest Jhana, which goes past the experiencing of rupa sensations, and has Nibbana as an object of attention, still has the presence of concepts to allow wisdom to arise. I posit that without concepts, Nibbana could not be realized. Enlightenment is dependent on concepts. This is just my two cents worth from my meditation experience and dhamma study. I am not an expert by any means, just giving my opinion. I am not trying to debate, put-down, or show off either. Just using this opportunity to straightening out my thoughts and maybe discover things I didn't know I knew ;-). With Metta, James --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Kom, > > Good to see you again. I hope you can stick around and can participate > in the discussion on the satipatthana sutta commentary. > > As for the debate that just won't go away, I think we are both headed in > the same direction but maybe not on the same track. As I see it the real > issue is what is meant by "direct experience". I'm sure we understand > this in the same way. The point of contention is that you think there > are no concepts involved in a direct experience but I do think concepts > are involved. The reason I think so is that experience does not arise > in discrete packages. It is a continuous, flowing, inter-related > process. That inter-relatedness is necessary in order to make sense out > of what is happening. And I would contend that the 'making sense' > process always involves concepts. A concept is the only dhamma that > _means_ something. Everything else is meaningless, literally. 'Meaning' > is relationship and you can't make sense without relationship. Hence, > you gotta have concepts. > > Now that doesn't mean you have to have words floating around in your > head all the time. Though all of us do have words floating around in our > head most of the time. My theory is that there are nuggets of meaning > (concepts without words) that make our brains work [don't try to find > this in the abhidhamma]. > > Anyway, that's not important. Back to 'direct experience'. By 'direct > experience' I don't mean, necessarily, a magga citta. What I am mostly > interested in is the direct experience that is part of the ordinary > satipatthana procedure. I'm afraid there may be some disagreement on > what is 'ordinary satipatthana procedure' so it would be very helpful if > you could catch up on the commentary and give us your input. Whatever > this procedure is, it is other than being absorbed in thinking about > concepts. Do you have anything to add to this? I'm out of concepts. > > Larry 16568 From: Uan Chih Liu Date: Thu Oct 31, 2002 10:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation" Hi, I've been following this thread because I was hoping it may provide me some answers to a question that has been bothering me. But thus far, perhaps due to my ignorance, I have not found the answers yet. My question is this: How does one know when insight occurs? How does one know if it is insight, not knowledge, or mere intellectural understanding of something, since we are so heavily influenced by what we've been taught, by school, by religion, and heck, by Buddhism? There are times while I'm contemplating about things, all of sudden, bang, something becomes clear to me. I'm sure everyone experiences that. Does that constitute as an insight or was it merely intellectural understanding or was it merely a concept construed by my mind with so much conviction that I actually thought it was insight? I've found learning and knowledge is my best friend and biggest enemy on my journey for seeking for truth. If anyone can shed some light on this, would appreciate it. A very perplexed being, WL 16569 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Oct 31, 2002 10:43pm Subject: Re: Practice on DSG Hi again Christine, You were saying: ------------------ > Reminds me of a Terry Pratchett conception of the Solar System in his Discworld books - a flat world balanced on a few of elephants standing on the back of a System Sized Turtle, and from there it's turtles 'all the way down'.... in real life, it's right understanding of anatta, conditions and 'no control' 'all the way down'.> ------------------- I agree; there's no bottom, it's turtles all the way down. That explains what's holding up the earth; but when we are told that understanding of dhamma is conditioned by understanding of dhamma, it's not so easy to accept. We can't resist thinking that, as you say, "initially there has to be some form of "us," understanding has to be initiated by us." ------------------- > I agree with you when you say, "mostly everyone acts out of what they think is pleasurable", but I think many people wouldn't really care if it wasn't pleasurable - if only they were absolutely certain of the way. > ---------------- Those people, like myself, need to understand that, right here and now, there is the opportunity for sila, dana or bhavana. If that's not good enough for us, then what do we *really* want? Kind regards Ken H 16570 From: rahula_80 Date: Thu Oct 31, 2002 10:47pm Subject: Sabbe dhammaa anattaa Hi, How would you translate: sabbe dhammaa anattaa SA says that "sabbe" only pertains the five khandhas. He provide several evidence for this. 1. He disect the phrase this way: Sabbe dhammaa anattaa - Dhammapada 279 sabbe (noun [see SN 4.15], direct object, in accusative. Sabba is nominative, sensory-determinates) dhammaa (proper noun, plural, subject, undeclined in nominative, dharmas) anattaa (adjective, modifying sabba. An [is not] atta' [attan: Soul]). Sabbe "the All" is the subject of Anatta in sabbe dhammaa anatta. Dhammaa is in nominative plural. sabbe (noun [see SN 4.15], direct object, in accusative. Sabba is nominative, 'the all') The 'all' partakes of the Soul; however the Soul does not partake of, is not IN, the 'all'. Sabbe Dharmas are not the Soul (anatta). Is this correct? 2. He quote the Sabba Sutta (The All) Salayatana Vagga, Samyutta Nikaya {S iv 15; CDB ii 1140} "The eye forms, the ear and sounds, the nose and odours, the tongue and tastes, the body and tactile objects, the mind and mental phenomena." 3. He quote Dhammapada Att. 3.406 sabbe dhammaati pañcakkhandhaa And translate it as: "sabbe dharmas (plural) designates the five khandhas" Is the translation correct? 4. Sabba in standalone SN 4.28 "sabbam., bhikkhave, anatta" The 'all', bhikkhus, are not the Soul. The word dhamma is not even in this passage. Dhammaa is not the subject of anatta's modification. Similarly for these two passage: SN 4.21 "sabbam., bhikkhave, addhabhu'tam" Bhikkhus, the 'all' are afflictions. SN 4.19 "sabbam., bhikkhave, a'dittam." Bhikkhus, the 'all' are ablaze. The absurd notion that sabba is an adjective modifying Dhamma is impossible. Firstly Dhamma is in the nominative plural; secondly sabba is the standalone accusative direct object in the cases directly above, namely SN 4.28, which proves that Dhamma is not the direct object of anattaa. Dhamma is in the nominative plural in agreement with sabba, not in the accusative, which would be "dhammam." or plural accusative "dhamme" sabba (nominative) is the direct object of anatta' which is why it occurs as sabbe (accusative plural). Dhamma is not the direct object of this sentence but rather the subject. Dhammapada 277. "Sabbe san.kha'ra' anicca'"ti, yada' pan'n'a'ya passati; atha nibbindati dukkhe, esa maggo visuddhiya'. 'The all' phenomena are impermanent; when this is seen by means of wisdom, one becomes disgusted with suffering. This is the path of clarity. 278. "Sabbe san.kha'ra' dukkha'"ti, yada' pan'n'a'ya passati; atha nibbindati dukkhe, esa maggo visuddhiya'. 'The all' phenomena are suffering; when this is seen by means of wisdom, one becomes disgusted with suffering. This is the path of clarity. 279. "Sabbe dhamma' anatta'"ti, yada' pan'n'a'ya passati; atha nibbindati dukkhe, esa maggo visuddhiya'. 'The all' dharmas are not the Soul; when this is seen by means of wisdom, one becomes disgusted with suffering. This is the path of clarity. Other occurances of Sabba in Sutta SN 2.125 sabbe saªkha'ra' netam. mama nesohamasmi na meso atta'ti 'the all' phenomena are not me, are not who I am, are not my Soul. SN 3.43 sabbe saªkha'ra' anicca' dukkha' viparin.a'madhamma'ti 'the all' phenomena are not everlasting, suffering are dhammas in flux. AN 1.32 sabbe te dhamma' anit.t.ha'ya 'the all' dharmas are not fixed. ----- Can anyone help prove SA wrong? Thanks, Rahula 16571 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Oct 31, 2002 11:03pm Subject: Re: Sabbe dhammaa anattaa --- Dear rahula, It is true that at times the word dhamma refers to the five khandas but soetimes it has a wider meaning. Consider the context of this phrase. From memory it comes with the sentences: Sabbe sankhara annicum and sabbe sankhara dukkhum Sankhra in these cases refers to all conditioned phenomena - tehfive khandas. Hence why does the buddha chage this word to dhamma for anatta?It is because dhamma can include the conditioned and unconditioned -ie the five khandas and nibbana. robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., "rahula_80" wrote: > Hi, > > How would you translate: > > sabbe dhammaa anattaa > > SA says that "sabbe" only pertains the five khandhas. > > He provide several evidence for this. > > 1. He disect the phrase this way: > > Sabbe dhammaa anattaa - Dhammapada 279 > > sabbe (noun [see SN 4.15], direct object, in accusative. Sabba is > nominative, sensory-determinates) > > dhammaa (proper noun, plural, subject, undeclined in nominative, > dharmas) > > anattaa (adjective, modifying sabba. An [is not] atta' [attan: Soul]). > Sabbe "the All" is the subject of Anatta in sabbe dhammaa anatta. > > Dhammaa is in nominative plural. > > sabbe (noun [see SN 4.15], direct object, in accusative. Sabba is > nominative, 'the all') The 'all' partakes of the Soul; however the > Soul does not partake of, is not IN, the 'all'. Sabbe Dharmas are not > the Soul (anatta). > > Is this correct? > > 2. He quote the Sabba Sutta (The All) Salayatana Vagga, Samyutta > Nikaya {S iv 15; CDB ii 1140} > > "The eye forms, the ear and sounds, the nose and odours, the tongue > and tastes, the body and tactile objects, the mind and mental > phenomena." > > 3. He quote Dhammapada Att. 3.406 > > sabbe dhammaati pañcakkhandhaa > > And translate it as: > "sabbe dharmas (plural) designates the five khandhas" > > > Is the translation correct? > > 4. Sabba in standalone > > SN 4.28 "sabbam., bhikkhave, anatta" > The 'all', bhikkhus, are not the Soul. > The word dhamma is not even in this passage. Dhammaa is not the > subject of anatta's modification. > Similarly for these two passage: > > SN 4.21 "sabbam., bhikkhave, addhabhu'tam" Bhikkhus, the 'all' are > afflictions. > > SN 4.19 "sabbam., bhikkhave, a'dittam." Bhikkhus, the 'all' are > ablaze. > > > The absurd notion that sabba is an adjective modifying Dhamma is > impossible. Firstly Dhamma is in the nominative plural; secondly > sabba is the standalone > accusative direct object in the cases directly above, namely SN 4.28, > which proves that Dhamma is not the direct object of anattaa. > > Dhamma is in the nominative plural in agreement with sabba, not in > the > accusative, which would be "dhammam." or plural accusative "dhamme" > sabba (nominative) is the direct object of anatta' which is why it > occurs as sabbe (accusative plural). Dhamma is not the direct object > of this sentence but rather the subject. > > > > Dhammapada > 277. "Sabbe san.kha'ra' anicca'"ti, yada' pan'n'a'ya passati; atha > nibbindati dukkhe, esa maggo visuddhiya'. > 'The all' phenomena are impermanent; when this is seen by means of > wisdom, one becomes disgusted with suffering. This is the path of > clarity. > 278. "Sabbe san.kha'ra' dukkha'"ti, yada' pan'n'a'ya passati; atha > nibbindati dukkhe, esa maggo visuddhiya'. > 'The all' phenomena are suffering; when this is seen by means of > wisdom, one becomes disgusted with suffering. This is the path of > clarity. > 279. "Sabbe dhamma' anatta'"ti, yada' pan'n'a'ya passati; atha > nibbindati dukkhe, esa maggo visuddhiya'. > 'The all' dharmas are not the Soul; when this is seen by means of > wisdom, one becomes disgusted with suffering. This is the path of > clarity. > > > Other occurances of Sabba in Sutta > SN 2.125 sabbe saªkha'ra' netam. mama nesohamasmi na meso atta'ti > 'the all' phenomena are not me, are not who I am, are not my Soul. > SN 3.43 sabbe saªkha'ra' anicca' dukkha' viparin.a'madhamma'ti > 'the all' phenomena are not everlasting, suffering are dhammas in > flux. > AN 1.32 sabbe te dhamma' anit.t.ha'ya > 'the all' dharmas are not fixed. > > ----- > > Can anyone help prove SA wrong? > > Thanks, Rahula 16572 From: rahula_80 Date: Thu Oct 31, 2002 11:08pm Subject: Re: Sabbe dhammaa anattaa Hi, It seems that not only SA think thus. See Concentration-Insight Meditation http://www.concentration.org/_insight.html [Dhammakaya Buddhist Meditation Institute Thailand] It says: sabbe dhamma anatta All compounds are devoid of self. Some translate the phrase sabbe dhamma literally as "all phenomena" (both compound and non-compound). This is not true. According to Lord Buddha's Teaching in the Dhammapada Pali text, as interpreted by the original arahant commentators and by the most recent translators (Carter and Palihawadana 1987) 2, the words sabbe dhamma , in this context, refer only to the Five Aggregates . These are sankhara or compounds. Thus, the reference excludes pure, non-compound aspects of nature such as nibbana . ----- 16573 From: rahula_80 Date: Thu Oct 31, 2002 11:28pm Subject: Re: Sabbe dhammaa anattaa Hi, The PTS Dictionary have this: In the entry for Dhamma, it says: ".....Freq. in formula sabbe dhamma anicca (+dukkha anatta: see nicca) "the whole of the visible world, all phenomena are evanescent etc." S III.132 Sabbe dhamma anicca!!! The PTS Dictionary is available online. http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/ CAn anyone check this out? 16574 From: James Date: Fri Nov 1, 2002 0:17am Subject: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation" WL, What you ask is a very complex and deep question. I am not sure if I am qualified to answer it, but that has never stopped me before! Hehehe.. You write: My question is this: How does one know when insight occurs? How does one know if it is insight, not knowledge, or mere intellectual understanding of something, since we are so heavily influenced by what we've been taught, by school, by religion, and heck, by Buddhism? It seems to me that you are looking at `insight' as the gaining of something, like learning math, science, and history; I posit that `insight' is actually the taking away of something. Insight is when ignorance and craving are removed from the mind so that its inherent wisdom can shine through. Like muddy water stilled or clouds that dissolve in the midday sun, insight is when the obstructions of the mind are removed and the underlying wisdom is clearly seen. Nothing has been added to the mind; `insight'/'wisdom' How does one know that this has/is happening? Well, if you are a full arahant, it is easy to see. The obstructions are clearly gone and reality is clearly seen. You have no doubt and no one could tell you otherwise as to what you have achieved. But what if you are not a full arahant? Then how does one know that the defilements are beginning to be removed? This is a little tricky and my answer may come across as a bit unconventional: A person knows that he/she is on the correct path of Buddhism and making strides because he/she will experience almost constant wavering between dissatisfaction and angst with one's current `insight', and happiness with one's current `insight'. But, the thought is always there and the concern is always there about `insight'. Those who have zero insight, don't worry or think about such things. Yep, you heard me right. Why? Because as the defilements are removed, the goal (nibbana) is more in sight but it is not completely in sight and it is hard to reach. Like the saying goes, it is `so close and yet so far'. And with nibbana being like candy behind a glass counter, we grow even more dissatisfied with what we don't have yet, but extremely excited and happy that we at least see it. Before entering this Buddhist path, the glass was tinted, the candy out of sight, and we felt like we were `missing something' but never quite sure what that `something' was. We stumbled onto Buddhism, saw that it answered a lot of the questions we had, but also discovered that its path is `bitter sweet'. So WL, be rest assured, you have already gained much insight. If you hadn't, the issue of how much insight you have gained would not be important to you. Asking the question would not be important to you. Even belonging to this group would not be important to you. You would live your life for sex, drugs, and rock-n-roll like the rest of the masses. But you don't, so you have gained much insight. The Buddha said that his path was beautiful in the beginning, in the middle and in the end. But he didn't say it was quick, easily understood, easy to follow, or guaranteed for all. Don't evaluate yourself by where you aren't; evaluate yourself by where you have come from. Take care. Metta, James --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Uan Chih Liu" wrote: > Hi, > I've been following this thread because I was hoping it may > provide me some answers to a question that has been > bothering me. But thus far, perhaps due to my ignorance, > I have not found the answers yet. > > My question is this: How does one know when insight occurs? > How does one know if it is insight, not knowledge, or mere > intellectural understanding of something, since we are so heavily > influenced by what we've been taught, by school, by religion, and > heck, by Buddhism? There are times while I'm contemplating > about things, all of sudden, bang, something becomes clear to me. > I'm sure everyone experiences that. Does that constitute as an > insight or was it merely intellectural understanding or was it merely > a concept construed by my mind with so much conviction that I > actually thought it was insight? I've found learning and knowledge > is my best friend and biggest enemy on my journey for seeking for > truth. If anyone can shed some light on this, would appreciate it. > > A very perplexed being, > WL 16575 From: Sarah Date: Fri Nov 1, 2002 0:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sabbe dhammaa anattaa Hi Rahula, --- rahula_80 wrote: > Hi, > > It seems that not only SA think thus. > > See Concentration-Insight Meditation > http://www.concentration.org/_insight.html > > [Dhammakaya Buddhist Meditation Institute Thailand] > > It says: > > sabbe dhamma anatta > > All compounds are devoid of self. .... I'm in a rush...students about to arrive, but you may like to look at part of this post from the DSG archives from Rob Ed in the meantime. (Btw,I hope people don't think SA refers to me;-)): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/8280 ***** ">Robert (Eddison): >There are a small number of texts in which impermanence is predicated of *dhammas* (as opposed to sankhaaras), but there is always some term or phrase limiting it to some particular kind of dhamma. For example, the Kathaavatthu has the phrase "all *conditioned* dhammas are impermanent" (sabbe san.khatadhammaa aniccaa); the Vibhanga of the Abhidhamma Pi.taka has simply "dhammas are impermanent" (dhammaa aniccaa), but the context makes it clear that it is the sense bases and sense objects that are being referred to. When the term "dhammas" occurs without any such limiting terms or phrases it is invariably anattaa and not anicca that is predicated of them. The reason for this according to the Commentaries is that "dhammas" in such contexts denotes both conditioned dhammas and the unconditioned dhamma (and the latter is not impermanent). As the Samyutta Commentary states: 'Sabbe san.khaaraa aniccaa' ti sabbe tebhuumakasan.khaaraa aniccaa. 'All formations are impermanent' means all formations on the three levels are impermanent. 'Sabbe dhammaa anattaa' ti sabbe catubhuumakadhammaa anattaa. 'All dhammas are not self' means all dhammas on the four levels are not self. (SA ii 318, Commentary to the Channa Sutta) ["Three levels" means the sensual (kaamabhuumi), the refined material (ruupabhuumi) and the immaterial (aruupabhuumi). "Four levels" means the three already mentioned together with the supramundane level >(lokuttarabhuumi)]" ***** There was also a helpful post ages ago from Gayan (or was it Suan?)as I recall, but I haven't been able to access escribe for 2 or 3 days and can't find it quickly. Must dash. Thanks for raising these important points. Suan or others may have more. Sarah ====== > > Some translate the phrase sabbe dhamma literally as "all phenomena" > (both compound and non-compound). This is not true. According to Lord > Buddha's Teaching in the Dhammapada Pali text, as interpreted by the > original arahant commentators and by the most recent translators > (Carter and Palihawadana 1987) 2, the words sabbe dhamma , in this > context, refer only to the Five Aggregates . These are sankhara or > compounds. Thus, the reference excludes pure, non-compound aspects of > nature such as nibbana . > > ----- 16576 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Nov 1, 2002 3:17am Subject: Re: Sabbe dhammaa anattaa --- Dear Rahula, Dhammakaya are well-known in thailand where I am. You might want to do an internet search on the Bangkok post website (a main English newspaper) for background.. Robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., "rahula_80" wrote: > Hi, > > It seems that not only SA think thus. > > See Concentration-Insight Meditation > http://www.concentration.org/_insight.html > > [Dhammakaya Buddhist Meditation Institute Thailand] > > It says: > > sabbe dhamma anatta > > All compounds are devoid of self. > > Some translate the phrase sabbe dhamma literally as "all phenomena" > (both compound and non-compound). This is not true. According to Lord > Buddha's Teaching in the Dhammapada Pali text, as interpreted by the > original arahant commentators and by the most recent translators > (Carter and Palihawadana 1987) 2, the words sabbe dhamma , in this > context, refer only to the Five Aggregates . These are sankhara or > compounds. Thus, the reference excludes pure, non-compound aspects of > nature such as nibbana . > > ----- 16577 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Nov 1, 2002 3:41am Subject: Re: Practice on DSG --- Dear Christine, Nice to hear of your considerations; which seem so real to me.Vision actually refers to stages of vipassana - as this sutta covers development from beginning to end. You see the way it works is many people can hear the same Dhamma, but because of complex conditions it is inevitable that they will have different considerations. One might hear the True Dhamma and misinterpret it or even reject it, another might believe it but not consider deeply; another only considers but it doesn't get beyond that stage; another goes deeper and starts to penetrate the characteristics of dhammas. Once some men came to listen to the Buddha. Ananada observed them and wondered why only one of the men paid careful attention . The Buddha talked about their past lives and how this conditioned their behaviour now. He said to Ananda that it is no easy matter to listen (with wise attention) to profound Dhamma and only by accumulating the right conditions is this possible. We cannot control sati or wise attention to arise even when studying Dhamma. Somtimes it does and gradually there will/may be sufficient wisdom to see that - as you say-discussion or listening/studying/considering is crucial to the development of wisdom.Knowing this means that confidence in the teaching grows - and as you further note the factor of saddha (confidence)is needed , along with right energy.None of these factors are controllable but they must arise if the right conditions are nurtured. Even the men who couldn't properly listen to the Buddha will, if they continue to make the effort to attend talks,slowly accumulate wisdom. (Noguarantee of course, conditions are complex - and attitude is so important . Also conditioned). Sometimes confidence wanes but if there can be direct awareness of dhammas- including doubt or confidence - then this will be further confirmation of the conditionality of all dhammas. No one can make confidence stay. Robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" > RobK, you say: "I think right practice is nothing other than the > arising of panna which experiences whatever is present." Your post > sent me diving to refresh > my understanding of Sati and Panna and I surfaced nearly a week > later ... [A grasshopper mind is not a structured or organised mind, > and may arrive a little after everyone else.] I took out > 'Cetasikas' read the chapters on Sati and Panna, and how they were > two of the five 'indriyas' or spiritual faculties which should be > developed, and went to read up on confidence (saddha ), energy > (viriya), and concentration (ekaggata ). After that I followed a > few other topics that caught my interest as well... > The eightfold path seems to get harder the more I learn, which is > sometimes discouraging, especially when I want to see some progress > (not necessarily quick) - and when I hear 'guarantees' of progress > elsewhere (four weeks sitting in Myanmar and come out a Sotapanna > for sure. Imagine that!). > "Kotthita then asked sariputta "If right understanding is > forwarded, by how many factors, your reverence, does there come > to be the fruit of freedom..." Sariputta listed 5 factors: > moral habit, hearing true dhama, discussion, calm, and vision. > The commentary notes that discussion [with the wise] helps to give up > wrong practice." - which I have proven in my own life to be Truth, > not sure what 'vision' means here. > But I find it hard to understand how, as sati is a cetasika and > ephemeral and is therefore not possible to direct or maintain, how > then can we choose, direct and maintain mindfulness when hearing > profound Dhamma. Isn't Dhamma as much an object as the breath? Or is > it something else that is in operation here? > > metta, > Christine 16578 From: abhidhammika Date: Fri Nov 1, 2002 7:15am Subject: Re: Sabbe dhammaa anattaa: To Sarah, Rahula, Robert K Dear Sarah, Rahula, Robert Kirkpatrick How are you? I have been following this thread with interest. Like Robert Kirkpatrick said, Sabbe Dhammaa means both conditioned and unconditioned dhammas as Robert Eddison quoted from Khandha Samyutta commentary where the term "catubhuumakadhammaa" is used. When Section 279 in Dhammapada commentary said "Tattha sabbe dhammaati pancakkhandhaa eva adhippetaa", we need to remember the context indicated by the term "Tattha" (On that occasion, in that context). The context on that occasion was that the Buddha was giving this particular instruction (sabbe dhammaa anattaa, all things are selfless)to those monks who had previously practised specializing in the characteristic of selflessness of the five aggregates. That is why the Dhammapada commentary on Section 279 has to say that "On that occasion, all things means the five aggregates only". Therefore, we cannot justify any interpretation of the phrase "sabbe dhamaa" as a loophole to imply that the five aggregates alone are selfless. The Section 279 of the Dhammapada commentary does not permit us to interpret that selfless things do not include Nibbaana. With kind regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: Hi Rahula, --- rahula_80 wrote: > Hi, > > It seems that not only SA think thus. > > See Concentration-Insight Meditation > http://www.concentration.org/_insight.html > > [Dhammakaya Buddhist Meditation Institute Thailand] > > It says: > > sabbe dhamma anatta > > All compounds are devoid of self. .... I'm in a rush...students about to arrive, but you may like to look at part of this post from the DSG archives from Rob Ed in the meantime. (Btw,I hope people don't think SA refers to me;-)): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/8280 ***** ">Robert (Eddison): >There are a small number of texts in which impermanence is predicated of *dhammas* (as opposed to sankhaaras), but there is always some term or phrase limiting it to some particular kind of dhamma. For example, the Kathaavatthu has the phrase "all *conditioned* dhammas are impermanent" (sabbe san.khatadhammaa aniccaa); the Vibhanga of the Abhidhamma Pi.taka has simply "dhammas are impermanent" (dhammaa aniccaa), but the context makes it clear that it is the sense bases and sense objects that are being referred to. When the term "dhammas" occurs without any such limiting terms or phrases it is invariably anattaa and not anicca that is predicated of them. The reason for this according to the Commentaries is that "dhammas" in such contexts denotes both conditioned dhammas and the unconditioned dhamma (and the latter is not impermanent). As the Samyutta Commentary states: 'Sabbe san.khaaraa aniccaa' ti sabbe tebhuumakasan.khaaraa aniccaa. 'All formations are impermanent' means all formations on the three levels are impermanent. 'Sabbe dhammaa anattaa' ti sabbe catubhuumakadhammaa anattaa. 'All dhammas are not self' means all dhammas on the four levels are not self. (SA ii 318, Commentary to the Channa Sutta) ["Three levels" means the sensual (kaamabhuumi), the refined material (ruupabhuumi) and the immaterial (aruupabhuumi). "Four levels" means the three already mentioned together with the supramundane level >(lokuttarabhuumi)]" ***** There was also a helpful post ages ago from Gayan (or was it Suan?)as I recall, but I haven't been able to access escribe for 2 or 3 days and can't find it quickly. Must dash. Thanks for raising these important points. Suan or others may have more. Sarah ====== > > Some translate the phrase sabbe dhamma literally as "all phenomena" > (both compound and non-compound). This is not true. According to Lord > Buddha's Teaching in the Dhammapada Pali text, as interpreted by the > original arahant commentators and by the most recent translators > (Carter and Palihawadana 1987) 2, the words sabbe dhamma , in this > context, refer only to the Five Aggregates . These are sankhara or > compounds. Thus, the reference excludes pure, non-compound aspects of > nature such as nibbana . > > ----- 16579 From: Date: Fri Nov 1, 2002 2:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sabbe dhammaa anattaa Hi, Rahula - In a message dated 11/1/02 2:09:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, rahula_80@y... writes: > > Hi, > > It seems that not only SA think thus. > > See Concentration-Insight Meditation > http://www.concentration.org/_insight.html > > [Dhammakaya Buddhist Meditation Institute Thailand] > > It says: > > sabbe dhamma anatta > > All compounds are devoid of self. > > Some translate the phrase sabbe dhamma literally as "all phenomena" > (both compound and non-compound). This is not true. According to Lord > Buddha's Teaching in the Dhammapada Pali text, as interpreted by the > original arahant commentators and by the most recent translators > (Carter and Palihawadana 1987) 2, the words sabbe dhamma , in this > context, refer only to the Five Aggregates . These are sankhara or > compounds. Thus, the reference excludes pure, non-compound aspects of > nature such as nibbana . > > ========================= Any interpretation which views nibbana as atta is, I believe, heretical, and the Dhammakaya Buddhist Meditation Institute's taking that position causes me to wonder about that organization. The Buddha's teachings are generally quite precise, and his using 'sankhara' twice, once with 'anicca' and once with 'dukkha', but then changing to 'dhamma' with regard to 'anatta' is quite unlikely to be unintentional. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16580 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 1, 2002 10:06am Subject: Perfections Ch 6, Energy, no 12 Perfections Ch 6, Energy, no 12 We read in the Commentary to the ³Samvara Jåtaka²(no. 462, Khuddhaka Nikåya): At that time when the Buddha was dwelling in the Jeta Grove, he told the following story about a monk who had ceased to strive. When he was a young man he lived at Såvatthí, and after he had heard the Buddha preach the Dhamma, he gained confidence and became a monk. Fulfilling the tasks imposed by his teachers and preceptors, he learnt by heart both divisions of the Påtimokkha. After five years when he had learnt the meditation subjects he took leave of his teachers and preceptors because he wanted to dwell in the forest. When he came to a frontier village people took confidence in him because of his deportment and built a hut of leaves for him, so that he could dwell in that village. When it was the rainy season, he developed with strenuous endeavour his meditation subject during three months, but when he did not reach attainment, he thought that he himself was the lowest among the four classes of people, namely those who could only understand the theory of the teachings, ³pada parama² (12 . Hence he returned to the Jeta Grove in order to see the Buddha in person and to listen to his delightful Dhamma Discourses. When the Buddha was informed about this he said to that monk, ³The highest fruit in this teaching which is arahatship cannot be realized by someone who is lazy. In the past you were full of energy and easy to teach. Although you were the youngest of all the hundred sons of the King of Vårånasi, you obtained the white umbrella and became the King.² The Buddha then related the story of the past when that monk was King Saóvara. The Buddha spoke about his excellent qualities which caused his brothers and the citizens to pay him honour and to make him King, although he was the youngest of the hundred sons of the King of Vårånasi. King Saóvara spoke to Prince Uposatha, who was his eldest brother and who was in his last life the venerable Såriputta, the following words: ³I never grudge, O Prince, great sages who are seeking what is supreme and ready to pay them honour due with humble mind, I fall before their feet.² Even when the prince with humble mind paid honour, falling at other people¹s feet, he must have had viriya, endeavour to eradicate defilements, such as conceit or attachment to the importance of self, the importance of being a prince, the son of the King of Vårånasi. Here we see that nothing can be accomplished without viriya. Cittas are varied: some people are jealous of those who have knowledge, but they are not envious in other respects. It depends on someone¹s accumulations on account of which kind of object he has envy. If a person has knowledge and understanding other people should have respect for his understanding, but some people are still inclined to be jealous. One needs to have viriya, one needs to have endeavour to see the danger of jealousy and to get rid of it. King Samvara continued with the words: Wise sages who delight in the excellent teaching of those who seek what is excellent, taught me continuously. I, who was intent on what is right and liked to listen, had no envy. I listened to the words of the wise sages who are seeking what is supreme, I did not despise any cousel and was delighted with the teaching. I did not reduce the allowances of the elephant troops and chariotmen, royal guard and infantry, and I paid them the bonus and reward due to them. Great nobles and wise counsellors are waiting on me and giving me assistance so that the city of Vårånasi abounds with rice, fish and drinking water. Merchants who come from different states prosper, and I assist and protect them. Now you know the truth, Uposatha. Because of these words all people could see that the King was endowed with excellent qualities and therefore worthy to be the King of Vårånasi. Footnote: 12. As to the four classes of people: some could attain enlightenment quickly, even at the beginning of a discourse; some could attain after a more detailed explanation; some could attain after having heard many explanations and after having considered the truth again and again; Some could only understand the theory, the words, and did not attain during that life. They are called ³pada parama², those for whom the wprds (pada) are the highest (parama). The monk in the story thought that he was a pada parama. 16581 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Nov 1, 2002 11:43am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation" Dear Larry, > -----Original Message----- > From: LBIDD@w... [mailto:LBIDD@w...] > > Hi Kom, > > As for the debate that just won't go away, I think we are both headed in > the same direction but maybe not on the same track. As I see it the real > issue is what is meant by "direct experience". I'm sure we understand > this in the same way. The point of contention is that you think there I agree about heading in the same direction! > are no concepts involved in a direct experience but I do think concepts > are involved. The reason I think so is that experience does not arise > in discrete packages. It is a continuous, flowing, inter-related > process. What I am saying here is that a citta cognizes only one object at a time. When it is cognizing a reality, it is not cognizing concept, when it is cognizing concept, it is not cognizing realities. It is clearly stated that a single process (vithi) will have only one object (either reality or concept) for the entire process. I was dicussing to the saying that "concepts are part of every citta process on the level of mundane experience." Perhaps we understand "process" in a different manner? > The inter-relatedness is necessary in order to make sense out > of what is happening. And I would contend that the 'making sense' > process always involves concepts. A concept is the only dhamma that > _means_ something. Everything else is meaningless, literally. 'Meaning' > is relationship and you can't make sense without relationship. Hence, > you gotta have concepts. What you are saying here is true in everyday life. We don't refer to things as "what appears to the eye", but we refer to them as "this shape", "object of this function", "a chair." Without conceptualization, we hardly remember what appears. On the other hands, wisdom are separated into 3 (rough) levels: 1) Wisdom by hearing 2) Wisdom by thinking 3) Wisdom by direct experience The 8-fold path (both mundane and supramundane), from the most absolute standpoints, is strictly 3), but 3) cannot occur without 1) or 2). When wisdom at 3) is occuring, it doesn't necessarily mean that the person isn't thinking about what just appears (perhaps wisdom at 2)) immediately afterward. However, wisdom of 1) and 2) alone cannot bring one to the supramundane path: it is the wisdom at 3) (although without 1 and 2!) that does. > > Now that doesn't mean you have to have words floating around in your > head all the time. Though all of us do have words floating around in our > head most of the time. My theory is that there are nuggets of meaning > (concepts without words) that make our brains work [don't try to find > this in the abhidhamma]. The tikas gives and example of direct experience (not necessarily with wisdom) and the conceptualization of what appears: it is applied to seeing. 1) When we first see, only the visible object appears 2) Then we conceptualize on shape and form (clear color, round, etc.) 3) Then we conceptualize on meaning (object that can hold water) 4) Then we verbalize it (a water glass). Another example on hearing somebody speak: 1) When we first hear, only the sound appears 2) Then we conceptualize on the amplititude and the pitch (loud, high, low pitch, etc.) 3) Then we collect the sound into distinct consonants, and words 4) Then we conceptualize on the meaning of the word 5) Then we conceptualize on what the word refers to The process that takes realities to concepts are immensely fast. But on the other hand, it is the process at the reality level that impermanence, suffering, and anattaness can truly (and irrefutably) appear to wisdom. > you could catch up on the commentary and give us your input. Whatever > this procedure is, it is other than being absorbed in thinking about > concepts. Do you have anything to add to this? I'm out of concepts. > My simple idea is that it is the wisdom at the direct level that can truly bring us to the supra-mundane path, but we need wisdom at all level to make this to happen, and we also need kusala of every kind (conceptual or not) to aid us in this... kom 16582 From: rahula_80 Date: Fri Nov 1, 2002 1:12pm Subject: Re: Sabbe dhammaa anattaa Hi, > Dhammakaya are well-known in thailand where I am. You might want to > do an internet search on the Bangkok post website (a main English > newspaper) for background.. > Robert I know they are into some controversy but that is beside the point. 16583 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Fri Nov 1, 2002 1:36pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sabbe dhammaa anattaa Dear Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: Hi, Rahula - Any interpretation which views nibbana as atta is, I believe, heretical, and the Dhammakaya Buddhist Meditation Institute's taking that position causes me to wonder about that organization. The Buddha's teachings are generally quite precise, and his using 'sankhara' twice, once with 'anicca' and once with 'dukkha', but then changing to 'dhamma' with regard to 'anatta' is quite unlikely to be unintentional. With metta, Howard KKT: A definition of Nibbana from the Udana: O bhikkhus, there is the unborn, ungrown, and unconditioned. Were there not the unborn, ungrown, and unconditioned, there would be no escape for the born, grown, and conditioned. Since there is the unborn, ungrown, and unconditioned, so there is escape for the born, grown, and conditioned. This definition could easily lead one to think that Nibbana is atta since one meaning of atta is that something << exists by itself >> and is << independent >> of other things. If Nibbana is << unborn, ungrown, and unconditioned >> then isn't Nibbana << existing by itself >> and << independent >> of everything? I raise this question not because I want to defend the atta doctrine but because I want to show that this matter is not easily to clinch. Peace, KKT 16584 From: Date: Fri Nov 1, 2002 8:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation" Hi, Kom(, James, and all) - In a message dated 11/1/02 2:44:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, kom@a... writes: > The tikas gives and example of direct experience (not necessarily with > wisdom) and the conceptualization of what appears: it is applied to seeing. > 1) When we first see, only the visible object appears > 2) Then we conceptualize on shape and form (clear color, round, etc.) > 3) Then we conceptualize on meaning (object that can hold water) > 4) Then we verbalize it (a water glass). > ============================ Kom, I've looked through the entire list of cetasikas, and I do not come upon the conceptual faculty. It would seem to be related to sa~n~na, but is surely not the same as that, if for no other reason than sa~n~na being a universal cetasika. If conceptualization is actually a *group* of cetasikas, exactly which cetasikas are involved. Somethinga as important as concept formation should have a clear formulation somewhere I should think. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16585 From: Date: Fri Nov 1, 2002 8:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation" Hi again, Kom - I mentioned James by mistake. It was Larry you were writing to. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16586 From: robmoult Date: Fri Nov 1, 2002 2:21pm Subject: New Class Notes On Line! Hi All, Abhidhamma Class Notes have been updated in the "Files" Section of the DSG. Major additions include: - "Inside the Sense Door Thought Process" (from October update) - "Rupa" (summary of Nina's book) - "Reality and Concepts" (summary of Khun Sujin's book) - "Concept and Reality" (partial summary of Bhikkhu Nanananda's book) - "Conditional Relations" (summary of Nina's book) There are reports that one needs version 5.0 of Acrobat reader. Download and enjoy! As always, I welcome criticisms (especially constructive ones!) Thanks, Rob M :-) 16587 From: Date: Fri Nov 1, 2002 2:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation" Hi James, I agree with everything you said. Anyone who wants to argue about concepts and reality should talk to you. best wishes, Larry 16588 From: rahula_80 Date: Fri Nov 1, 2002 2:31pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sabbe dhammaa anattaa Hi, > KKT: A definition of Nibbana from the Udana: > > > O bhikkhus, there is the unborn, ungrown, and unconditioned. > Were there not the unborn, ungrown, and unconditioned, > there would be no escape for the born, grown, and conditioned. > Since there is the unborn, ungrown, and unconditioned, > so there is escape for the born, grown, and conditioned. > > > This definition could easily lead > one to think that Nibbana is atta > since one meaning of atta is that > something << exists by itself >> and > is << independent >> of other things. > > If Nibbana is << unborn, ungrown, and unconditioned >> > then isn't Nibbana << existing by itself >> > and << independent >> of everything? "In a psychological sense, a design could be 'unmade' or 'dissolved' by shifting one's attention to its components. Even so, 'what is born' (jaatam), 'become' (bhuutam), 'made' (katam) and 'compounded' (samkhatam) is transformed into a 'not-born', 'not-become', 'not-made' and 'not-compounded' state by a penetrative insight into its causes and conditions. All 'designs' involved in the magic-show of consciousness, which are but dependently arisen, also cease when ignorance and craving are eradicated. The above epithets of Nibbaana are therefore psychological, and not metaphysical, in their import. Where there is no 'putting-together', there is no 'falling-apart'. Hence Nibbaana is also called apalokitam--the 'Non-disintegrating'. It is unfortunate that many scholars, both Eastern and Western, have interpreted metaphysically the two passages trom the Udaana quoted here, bringing out conclusions which are hardly in keeping with the teachings of Anattaa. The widespread tendency is to see in these two passages a reference to some mysterious, nondescript realm in a different dimension of existence, though the Buddha was positive that all existence is subject to the law of impermanence." (from _The Magic of the Mind_, pages 78-79, footnote 2) 16589 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Nov 1, 2002 2:34pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation" Dear Howard, > -----Original Message----- > From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 1:41 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation" > > > The tikas gives and example of direct experience (not necessarily with > > wisdom) and the conceptualization of what appears: it is > applied to seeing. > > 1) When we first see, only the visible object appears > > 2) Then we conceptualize on shape and form (clear color, round, etc.) > > 3) Then we conceptualize on meaning (object that can hold water) > > 4) Then we verbalize it (a water glass). > > > ============================ > Kom, I've looked through the entire list of cetasikas, and > I do not > come upon the conceptual faculty. It would seem to be related to > sa~n~na, but > is surely not the same as that, if for no other reason than > sa~n~na being a > universal cetasika. If conceptualization is actually a *group* of > cetasikas, > exactly which cetasikas are involved. Somethinga as important as concept > formation should have a clear formulation somewhere I should think. When I referred to "conceptualization" or "conceptualize", I don't mean it is a specific reality. When the citta cognizes a concept, it conceptualizes, and the other con-ascent cetasikas also conceptualize (or cognize concepts). kom 16590 From: rahula_80 Date: Fri Nov 1, 2002 2:49pm Subject: [dsg] Udana 80 passage Hi, This is written by Bruce Burrill: It appears twice in the Pali texts, in the Udana 80 (Ud VIII.3) and in the Itivuttaka, 37-8. (Itivuttaka 43) The "non" words are in Pali _ajatam_, _abhutam_, _akatam_, _asankhatam_. In the Pali texts when there is a list of words such as we have here, ajatam, abhutam, etc, they can be understood as synonyms. As we can plainly see each of these words starts with an _a_, which is a privative. The privative _a_ in Sanskrit/Pali is very much like the English privative _a_, for example, asexual reproduction -- that is, reproduction without sex. The privative _a_ in Sanskrit/Pali needs not be, as unfortunately it so often is, limited to being translated as "un," "not," or "non." Asankhata: unformed, or better: unconditioned, can be translated as free from conditions, without conditions, not conditioned, conditionlessness. The most important word in this list is _asankhata_. Both nibbana/nirvana and ASANKHATA are defined in the same way: "That which is the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion is nirvana; .. is _asankhata_," S.N. IV 251 and IV 321 and in S.N. IV 359 and S.N. 362, respectively. Each of the other "a" terms of the Udana 80 are used in these forms or in variations to indicate nirvana. The word _asankhata_ tells us that one is no longer conditioned by hatred, greed, and ignorance. The first sentence in our passage reads in Pali: "Atthi [There is] ajatam [unborn], abhutam [unproduced], akatam, [unmade], asankhatam [unconditioned]." It is important to note that ajatam, abhutam, etc are adjectives, not nouns. The noun is implied. So we can ask, There is _what_? What is the implied noun? Since the early texts show that the Buddha did not indulge in a metaphysics of being, but rather was concerned with an ontology of becoming in terms of experiential states, it seems hardly likely that some sort of transcendent, metaphysical "entity" or "reality" are the concepts implied here. To assume that the Udana 80 text is referring to a metaphysical entity is to put this text outside of what the immediate and broader contexts show. As to the question, "There is what," a word meaning "state" or "characteristic" rather than "entity" seems more likely and this is borne out by the Buddha in the Itivuttaka 39: "Whoever, by knowing this state/this characteristic [padam] that is _not conditioned_ [(asankhatam) by greed, hatred, and delusion], their minds released by the extinction of becoming's conduit -- They, delighting in extinction [of hatred, greed, and ignorance], reach the pith of mental states. Those who are 'such' get rid of all becomings." _Ye etad-an~n~aaya padam(ng) asankhatam(ng)...._ or "By knowing this unconditioned state/characteristic..." or "By knowing the state/characteristic that is without conditions [of hatred, greed, and ignorance]...." Let us not forget, unconditioned, asankhata, is a synonym for nirvana, which is to say: By knowing the destruction greed, hatred, and delusion, their minds released.... "The extinction of becoming's conduit" is another expression for nibbana/nirvana. The Itivuttaka, 37-8, contains the central section of Udana 80, and I like very much Rune Johansson's suggestion of translating _ajata_, etc, by "freedom from birth," etc. since such a translations supplies the implied noun via the privative _a_ as in _a_sankhata: === This said by the Blessed One, the Worthy One, was heard by me in this way: "Monks, there is freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning. For, monks if there were not this freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning, then escape from that which is birth, becoming, making, conditioning, would not be known here. But, monks, because there is freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning, therefore the escape from that which is birth, becoming, making, conditioning is known." [Here the Buddha, The Blessed One, offers his own verse commentary on his statement.] This meaning the Blessed One spoke, it is spoken here in this way: That which is born, become, arisen, made, conditioned, And thus unstable, put together of decay and death, The seat of disease, brittle, Caused and craving food, That is not fit to find pleasure in. Being freed of this, calmed beyond conjecture, stable, Freed from birth, freed from arising, freed from sorrow, Freed from passions, the elements of suffering stopped, The conditioning [of greed, hatred and delusion] appeased, This is ease [bliss]. === Or this could be translated as: "There is (a state) without birth, without becoming, without production and without compounding..." It is worth noting that the Buddha's own commentary does not point to a metaphysical entity. 16591 From: rahula_80 Date: Fri Nov 1, 2002 2:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Udana 80 passage Hi, Bhikkhu Thanissaro's translation of the two suttas can be found here: Udana VIII.3 (Udana 80) Nibbana Sutta, Total Unbinding (3) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud8-03.html Ittivuttaka 43. {Iti II.16; Iti 37} http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/iti/iti2.html 16592 From: Date: Fri Nov 1, 2002 3:23pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation" Hi Kom, Thanks for your detailed and informative response. I think we are pretty much in agreement, but here are a few questions and comments: K: What I am saying here is that a citta cognizes only one object at a time. L: I agree, but this is a conceptual way of understanding. In reality there is no *one* anything. Everything is a group process evolving through beginning, middle, and end, and ONLY PARTIALLY PERCEIVED. There either is no wholeness or wholeness is never really perceived. No one experiences the whole of Thailand and no one experiences the whole of red or salty. This is because everything has a potentially limitless identity. Thailand's identity depends on Myanmar which depends on S.E. Asia which depends on earth which depends on solar system etc. etc. etc. The same goes for red or salty. The middle way is the partial way; it is ordinary experience. K: On the other hand, wisdom is separated into 3 (rough) levels: 1) Wisdom by hearing 2) Wisdom by thinking 3) Wisdom by direct experience The 8-fold path (both mundane and supramundane), from the most absolute standpoints, is strictly 3), but 3) cannot occur without 1) or 2). When wisdom at 3) is occurring, it doesn't necessarily mean that the person isn't thinking about what just appears (perhaps wisdom at 2)) immediately afterward. However, wisdom of 1) and 2) alone cannot bring one to the supramundane path: it is the wisdom at 3) (although without 1 and 2!) that does. L: we haven't studied wisdom yet so I don't really know what is going on with it. I am guessing there is a wisdom of the #3 variety that occurs in a very ordinary but weak form either in meditation (satipatthana) practice or at any time in daily life that we actually look at what is going on and see what is there. This is not a profound experience at all, usually, but I think it qualifies as direct experience. In order to be satipatthana the analysis has to lead, at least tenuously, to nibbana, perhaps by something as simple as seeing that this is impermanent or dukkha or anatta, even on a very ordinary, mundane, easily accessible level. I think concepts can help-out here but it is completely different from 'thinking about' or from the internal monologue. K: My simple idea is that it is the wisdom at the direct level that can truly bring us to the supra-mundane path, but we need wisdom at all level to make this to happen, and we also need kusala of every kind (conceptual or not) to aid us in this... L: I agree. Well said. Larry 16593 From: Date: Fri Nov 1, 2002 10:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sabbe dhammaa anattaa Hi, KKT - In a message dated 11/1/02 4:36:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, phamdluan@a... writes: > > Dear Howard, > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > > > Hi, Rahula - > > > Any interpretation which views nibbana as atta is, I believe, > heretical, and the Dhammakaya Buddhist Meditation Institute's taking > that position causes me to wonder about that organization. > The Buddha's teachings are generally quite precise, and his using > 'sankhara' twice, once with 'anicca' and once with 'dukkha', but then > changing to 'dhamma' with regard to 'anatta' is quite unlikely to be > unintentional. > > > With metta, > Howard > > > > > > KKT: A definition of Nibbana from the Udana: > > > O bhikkhus, there is the unborn, ungrown, and unconditioned. > Were there not the unborn, ungrown, and unconditioned, > there would be no escape for the born, grown, and conditioned. > Since there is the unborn, ungrown, and unconditioned, > so there is escape for the born, grown, and conditioned. > > > This definition could easily lead > one to think that Nibbana is atta > since one meaning of atta is that > something <>and > is <>of other things. > > If Nibbana is <> > then isn't Nibbana <> > and <>of everything? > > > I raise this question not because > I want to defend the atta doctrine > but because I want to show that > this matter is not easily to clinch. > > > Peace, > > > KKT > > =========================== Nibbana does formally share elements in common with a self. What makes nibbana not-self is, as I see it, twofold: 1) it is impersonal, and 2) it is an absence, not a presence - it is not pure being or sat (such as is the brahman/atman of the Vedanta). With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16594 From: azita gill Date: Fri Nov 1, 2002 4:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 14, Comm. heavy going --- christine_forsyth wrote: < To Christine, Sarah and KenH, < what wonderful kalyanamita [btw. what is the plural of this word - Q. for Pali scholars] you people are. Your posts have been very helpful and comforting, if living in an empty world can be comforting [sic]. seriously tho. thank you! I tend to be a little shy about exposing the down side of me, but I see words of encouragment are Xly beneficial and will ask for help maybe more often. < Yes, Chris, I do work with some unfortunate people. I feel very helpless about the plight of some of my indigenous clients. I tell myself about conditions, about kamma, about dhamma, and still I find it overwhelming. However, as someone said: Real life is the best test. The best test to see where 'we' are at. < Can someone tell me where Nina's 'Perfections' can be found. I think they are wonderful. < Cheers, Azita 16595 From: James Date: Fri Nov 1, 2002 4:05pm Subject: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation" Larry, Thank you for the positive feedback, but please don't encourage people to argue with me!! And please don't send them my way with such a purpose...eeeekkkkk!! hehehe... I am having flashbacks of my prior, group experience! :-) I am trying my best to be non- controversial on this list (though I seem to attract controversy like a magnet...just ask Howard ;-). BTW, I want to post on an original line of thinking I have been having, concerning how fear appears to defile modern-day thinking/wisdom more than craving and desire. Is this allowable in this group or should the discussion follow or relate to the current sutta analysis? I don't want to overstep my bounds. Thank you in advance for your help to keep me on the straight and narrow..:-) Metta, James dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi James, > > I agree with everything you said. Anyone who wants to argue about > concepts and reality should talk to you. > > best wishes, Larry 16596 From: Date: Fri Nov 1, 2002 11:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation" Hi, Kom (and anyone else interested) - My point is that concepts/pa~n~natti are mind made, not just nature-given (as are rupas, vedana, etc). My question is what cetasikas, what basic mental functions other than vi~n~nana, are involved in the constructing of pa~n~natti, and how are pa~n~natti maintained and passed on (as templates). When I look outside and see "a tree", what is occurring is a complex juxtaposition of processes, some of which involve the pa~n~natti of 'tree'. How was that pa~n~natti constructed (by means of what cetasikas), how does it get applied to a series of processes of paramattha dhammas, and how is it passed along from mind-state to mind-state? This is a very important topic, because our entire world as we normally experience it, that is - the conventional world, is virtually all concept. Abhidhamma surely must give a complete account of concept formation. With metta, Howard In a message dated 11/1/02 5:37:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, kom@a... writes: > Dear Howard, > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > >Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 1:41 PM > >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > >Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation" > > > >>The tikas gives and example of direct experience (not necessarily with > >>wisdom) and the conceptualization of what appears: it is > >applied to seeing. > >>1) When we first see, only the visible object appears > >>2) Then we conceptualize on shape and form (clear color, round, etc.) > >>3) Then we conceptualize on meaning (object that can hold water) > >>4) Then we verbalize it (a water glass). > >> > >============================ > > Kom, I've looked through the entire list of cetasikas, and > >I do not > >come upon the conceptual faculty. It would seem to be related to > >sa~n~na, but > >is surely not the same as that, if for no other reason than > >sa~n~na being a > >universal cetasika. If conceptualization is actually a *group* of > >cetasikas, > >exactly which cetasikas are involved. Somethinga as important as concept > >formation should have a clear formulation somewhere I should think. > > When I referred to "conceptualization" or "conceptualize", I don't mean it > is a specific reality. When the citta cognizes a concept, it > conceptualizes, and the other con-ascent cetasikas also conceptualize (or > cognize concepts). > > kom > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16597 From: rahula_80 Date: Fri Nov 1, 2002 4:19pm Subject: Re: Sabbe dhammaa anattaa Hi, The PTSD is in error on this point. Thanks to the lead pointed out by Sarah. S III 132 is actually Channa Sutta. And Channa Sutta (S III 132) has: Sabbe sa"nkhaaraa aniccaa; sabbe dhammaa anattaa"ti --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "rahula_80" wrote: > Hi, > > The PTS Dictionary have this: > > In the entry for Dhamma, it says: > > ".....Freq. in formula sabbe dhamma anicca (+dukkha anatta: see > nicca) "the whole of the visible world, all phenomena are evanescent > etc." S III.132 > > Sabbe dhamma anicca!!! > > The PTS Dictionary is available online. > http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/ > > CAn anyone check this out? 16598 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Nov 1, 2002 4:21pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation" Dear Larry, > -----Original Message----- > From: LBIDD@w... [mailto:LBIDD@w...] > > > Hi Kom, > > K: What I am saying here is that a citta cognizes only one object at a > time. > > L: I agree, but this is a conceptual way of understanding. In reality > there is no *one* anything. Everything is a group process evolving > through beginning, middle, and end, and ONLY PARTIALLY PERCEIVED. There > either is no wholeness or wholeness is never really perceived. No one > experiences the whole of Thailand and no one experiences the whole of > red or salty. This is because everything has a potentially limitless > identity. Thailand's identity depends on Myanmar which depends on S.E. > Asia which depends on earth which depends on solar system etc. etc. etc. > The same goes for red or salty. The middle way is the partial way; it is > ordinary experience. The example you gave here are all conceptual objects, so I am not sure what you think when this applies to realities. When visible object appears, there is no "wholeness" involved: the visible object (what appears through the eye) appears. There is no one, there is no many, just a phenomenon with its distinct characteristics (sabhava). The details of what appear depend on the faculties of the conditioning dhamma. You can see better if your eyes works well. You can see better if there is penetrative insight about what is being seen. > > K: On the other hand, wisdom is separated into 3 (rough) levels: > > 1) Wisdom by hearing > 2) Wisdom by thinking > 3) Wisdom by direct experience > > L: we haven't studied wisdom yet so I don't really know what is going on > with it. I am guessing there is a wisdom of the #3 variety that occurs > in a very ordinary but weak form either in meditation (satipatthana) Satipatthana from the very weakest form, through the supramundane are of the 3rd type of wisdom. > practice or at any time in daily life that we actually look at what is > going on and see what is there. This is not a profound experience at > all, usually, but I think it qualifies as direct experience. In order to > be satipatthana the analysis has to lead, at least tenuously, to The analysis (the thinking) is a conditioning factor for the 3rd level of wisdom to arise... > nibbana, perhaps by something as simple as seeing that this is > impermanent or dukkha or anatta, even on a very ordinary, mundane, > easily accessible level. I think concepts can help-out here but it is > completely different from 'thinking about' or from the internal > monologue. > kom 16599 From: rahula_80 Date: Fri Nov 1, 2002 4:24pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sabbe dhammaa anattaa Hi, From > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/82804. Howard: Could you please be more detailed in this reference? From "SN 4" I have no idea of where to look. Anders: I'm pretty sure it's the Samyutta Nikaya I 4. ------ This is Samyutta Nikaya I. 4 Accentisutta.m 4. Saavatthinidaana.m Ekamanta.m thitaa kho saa devataa bhagavato santike ima.m gaatha.m abhaasi– "Accenti kaalaa tarayanti rattiyo, vayogu.naa anupubba.m jahanti; eta.m bhaya.m mara.ne pekkham±no, puññaani kayiraatha sukhaavahaanii"ti. "Accenti kaalaa tarayanti rattiyo, vayogu.naa anupubba.m jahanti; eta.m bhaya.m mara.ne pekkham±no, lokaamisa.m pajahe santipekkho"ti. 16600 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Nov 1, 2002 4:37pm Subject: PERFECTIONS Dear group, (esp. Azita), I have typed a listing of the postings Nina has made of her translations of "Perfections" by A. Sujin, with hyperlinks, in case anyone joined in on the series late and would like an easy reference for reading. Hope there are no errors. The Links for Chapters 1 to 5 so far covering four Perfections of Generosity, Morality, Renunciation, and Wisdom are below. Azita - I may have misunderstood, but I think Nina's translations are a 'Work in Progress' at the moment - very happy to be corrected though if they are available elsewhere. metta, Christine —------------------------------------------------- 13977 Ch.1 No. 1 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/13977 13992 Ch. 1 No.2 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/13992 14004 Ch. 1 No.3 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14004 —------------------------- "The Perfection of Generosity" 14094 Ch. 2 No. 1 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14094 14114 Ch. 2 No. 2 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14114 14137 Ch. 2 No. 3 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14137 14157 Ch. 2 No. 4 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14157 14210 Ch. 2 No. 5 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14210 14226 Ch. 2 No. 6 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14226 14237 Ch. 2.No. 7 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14237 14252 Ch. 2 No. 8 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14252 14265 Ch. 2 No. 9 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14265 14320 Ch. 2 No.10 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14320 14345 Ch. 2 No.11 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14345 —------------------------- "The Perfection of Morality" 14395 Ch. 3 No. 1 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14395 14429 Ch. 3 No. 2 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14429 14483 Ch. 3 No. 3 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14483 14511 Ch. 3 No. 4 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14511 14551 Ch. 3 No. 5 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14551 14569 Ch. 3 No. 6 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14569 14593 Ch. 3 No. 7 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14593 14646 Ch. 3 No. 8 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14646 14713 Ch. 3 No. 9 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14713 —------------------------- "The Perfection of Renunciation" 14766 Ch. 4 No. 1 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14766 14876 Ch. 4 No. 2 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14876 14979 Ch. 4 No. 3 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14979 15013 Ch. 4 No. 4 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15013 15055 Ch. 4 No. 5 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15055 15082 Ch. 4 No. 6 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15082 15207 Ch. 4 No. 7 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15207 —------------------------ "The Perfection of Wisdom" 15259 Ch. 5 No. 1 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15259 15332 Ch. 5 No. 2 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15332 15368 Ch. 5 No. 3 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15368 15429 Ch. 5 No. 4 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15429 15470 Ch. 5 No. 5 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15470 15549 Ch. 5 No. 6 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15549 15636 Ch. 5 No. 7 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15636 15731 Ch. 5 No. 8 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15731 15787 Ch. 5 No. 9 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15787 15805 Ch. 5 No.10 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15805 15848 Ch. 5 No.11 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15848 15909 Ch. 5 No.12 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15909 15942 Ch. 5 No.13 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15942 16601 From: Date: Fri Nov 1, 2002 11:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sabbe dhammaa anattaa Hi, Rahula - This post confuses me. I don't recall giving any reference. (I don't know why you mention my name.) Also, when I try to access your url, I get a msg saying that there is no msg 82804. With metta, Howard In a message dated 11/1/02 7:26:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, rahula_80@y... writes: > > Hi, > > From > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/82804. > > Howard: > > Could you please be more detailed in this reference? From "SN 4" I > have no > idea of where to look. > > Anders: > > I'm pretty sure it's the Samyutta Nikaya I 4. > > ------ > > > This is Samyutta Nikaya I. 4 > > Accentisutta.m > > 4. Saavatthinidaana.m Ekamanta.m thitaa kho saa devataa bhagavato > santike ima.m gaatha.m abhaasi– > "Accenti kaalaa tarayanti rattiyo, > vayogu.naa anupubba.m jahanti; > eta.m bhaya.m mara.ne pekkham±no, > puññaani kayiraatha sukhaavahaanii"ti. > "Accenti kaalaa tarayanti rattiyo, > vayogu.naa anupubba.m jahanti; > eta.m bhaya.m mara.ne pekkham±no, > lokaamisa.m pajahe santipekkho"ti. > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16602 From: Antony Woods Date: Fri Nov 1, 2002 5:01pm Subject: to appreciate Buddhist goal of parinibbana Dear Sarah and all, to appreciate the Buddhist goal of parinibbana (was "paramis are not lost through parinibbana") I would like to appreciate and form skillful beliefs about the Buddhist goal of parinibbana in order to feel inspired and arouse interest in practising the path. I would like to believe that parinibbana is full of love and compassion like the path is rather than just an undifferentiated peace. I was reassured by Thanissaro's article on Nibbana which explains that in ancient India the blowing out of a fire was not considered to be annihilation but that the fire became dormant and diffused throughout the cosmos. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/nibbana.html I would like to believe that the Buddha is still with us in some way. Nibbana is not defined as non-existence. I believe that Nibbana cannot be described with language but it is the goal of Buddhism and gives the practice its sense of direction and purpose. Thanks / Antony. 16603 From: Antony Woods Date: Fri Nov 1, 2002 5:02pm Subject: Re: Ugliness (Re: [dsg] Way 17, Comm) Dear Howard and all, In contemplating the parts of the body I don't believe the Buddha intended us to have a "mood .... of revulsion or gloom but of unruffled calm .... from sober, analytical observation" (to use the words of Nyanaponika). To quote the Buddha from the Satipatthana Sutta: "Just as if, O bhikkhus, there were a bag having two openings, full of grain differing in kind, namely, hill-paddy, paddy, green-gram, cow-pea, sesamum, rice; and a man with seeing eyes, having loosened it, should reflect thinking thus: 'This is hill paddy; this is paddy, this is green-gram; this is cow-pea; this is sesamum; this is rice.' In the same way, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu reflects on just this body hemmed in by the skin and full of manifold impurity from the soles up, and from the top of the hair down, thinking thus: 'There are in this body: hair of the head, hair of the body, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, fibrous threads (veins, nerves, sinews, tendons), bones, marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, contents of the stomach, intestines, mesentery, feces, bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, solid fat, tears, fat dissolved, saliva, mucus, synovic fluid, urine.' I admit I've only tried the first five visible parts "hair of the head, hair of the body, nails, teeth, skin" with metta / Antony. 16604 From: Date: Fri Nov 1, 2002 5:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation" Hi James, I think anything within a Theravada context is on topic. "Fear" seems like a good one to me. What's on your mind? Larry 16605 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Nov 1, 2002 5:11pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation" Dear Howard, > -----Original Message----- > From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 4:08 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation" > > > Hi, Kom (and anyone else interested) - > > My point is that concepts/pa~n~natti are mind made, not just > nature-given (as are rupas, vedana, etc). My question is what > cetasikas, what > basic mental functions other than vi~n~nana, are involved in the > constructing > of pa~n~natti, and how are pa~n~natti maintained and passed on (as > templates). When I look outside and see "a tree", what is occurring is a > complex juxtaposition of processes, some of which involve the > pa~n~natti of > 'tree'. How was that pa~n~natti constructed (by means of what > cetasikas), how > does it get applied to a series of processes of paramattha > dhammas, and how > is it passed along from mind-state to mind-state? This is a very > important > topic, because our entire world as we normally experience it, > that is - the > conventional world, is virtually all concept. Abhidhamma surely > must give a > complete account of concept formation. > > Aha. This is a very interesting question, but it is beyond what I have studied so far. The abhidhamma gives very detailed descriptions of how the mind works. Understanding it is another matter altogether. It is obviously not possible to understand everything that the Buddha has taught: it depends on one's accumulation to get it. The functions of cetasikas, as we have discussed so far, are functions that applies to a single moment of the citta. When the citta (vinnana) cognizes a concept, sanna (memory) marks that concept, and vitakka brought the nama to "touch" that concept. To study relations, one must study Patthana (conditions), something mostly beyond my grasp. Otherwise, as I have mentioned in the previous message, the tikas (commentaries to the commentaries!) describe the stages of the conceptualization. Unfortunately, I don't think it is at the level of details you are looking for. kom ps: I am appreciative of your keen observation that most of what we experience in our daily life are conceptual. We spend so much time thinking about the realities that we experience that we are not truly aware of the realities. We spend so much time being attached and being aversed to things that don't even exist in nature! 16606 From: Date: Fri Nov 1, 2002 5:22pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation" Hi Kom, Is rupa a group of elements? Does citta always arise in a group of cetasikas? That is what I meant. We think of these realities as single (whole) things, but we don't experience them that way. They are anatta, fragments. Larry 16607 From: Uan Chih Liu Date: Fri Nov 1, 2002 5:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation" James, Thank you for your answer. I guess as I am not a full arahant, so my struggle is only natural because our mirrors have been so dirty coming from generations of dusts. I'm beginning to understand what the elders have been saying: - never to speak with conviction - keep an open mind - wisdom by hearing, wisdom by thinking, wisdom by direct experience, but ultimately one has to be freed from hearing and thinking and direct experience. metta, WL 16608 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Nov 1, 2002 5:49pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation" Dear Larry, > -----Original Message----- > From: LBIDD@w... [mailto:LBIDD@w...] > Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 5:22 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation" > > > Hi Kom, > > Is rupa a group of elements? Does citta always arise in a group of > cetasikas? That is what I meant. We think of these realities as single > (whole) things, but we don't experience them that way. They are anatta, > fragments. > > Larry Ah. Thanks for the clarification. Then, I think we are on the same page. When the citta cognizes a reality, only one specific characteristic is appearing. Citta is not cognized at the same time as cetasikas. >From my perspective, a rupa is not a group of elements, but is used to refer to: 1) a specific element, e.g., hardness, which is not nama 2) a category of elements, e.g., all the elements that are rupa Citta is harder. It is used to refer to: 1) a specific element, e.g., cognition (which is chief in all cognitive dhamma). 2) a classification of elements, e.g., all the 89 cittas 3) a collective set of both citta and cetasikas (as in rupa conditioned by citta, which really means rupa conditioned by citta and the con-ascent cetasikas) When I refer to an object that is a reality, the object is the characteristic of the reality: there is nothing beyond the characteristic of the reality. I think we are very close on the understandings of realities and concepts, but somehow, when I read what you write, I always thought you are saying something different... kom 16609 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Nov 1, 2002 8:07pm Subject: Re: to appreciate Buddhist goal of parinibbana1 --- Dear Anthony, Thanks for bringing up your honest feelings about this. "Antony Woods" wrote: > Dear Sarah and all, I would like to appreciate and form skillful beliefs > about the Buddhist goal of parinibbana in order to feel > inspired and arouse interest in practising the path. > I would like to believe that parinibbana is full of love > and compassion like the path is rather than just an > undifferentiated peace. > I was reassured by Thanissaro's article on Nibbana which > explains that in ancient India the blowing out of a fire > was not considered to be annihilation but that the fire > became dormant and diffused throughout the cosmos. I would like to believe that the Buddha is still with us > in some way. Nibbana is not defined as non-existence. >> > ___________________ I think it is so natural that we all have different ideas about what nibbana is and what (read who) it is who gets there. Some of 'us' might hope that our suffering 'self' is anihilated at khandha parinibbana. Others hope that there will be in some non-manisfestative consciousness that carries on.. The differences in views are numerous: Mulpariyaya sutta(MN1) buddha says "There is the case, monks, where an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person -- who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma -- He perceives Nibbana as Nibbana .Perceiving Nibbana as Nibbana , he conceives things about Nibbana , he conceives things in Nibbana , he conceives things coming out of Nibbana , *he conceives Nibbana as 'mine,' * he delights in Nibbana . Why is that? Because he has not comprehended it, I tell you.""ENDquote All this -whether of the anilhilationist end or eternalist end of the self view spectrum - comes about because self view is still anusaya(latent). Once self view is eradicated there are no more such views. Your mention of that the Buddha meant by the blowing out of the fire that it "was not considered to be annihilation but that the fire > became dormant and diffused throughout the cosmos" is creative but does not agree with the ancient commentaries - passed from India to Sri lanka. Perhaps you would be open to considering this way of understanding the simile of the fire The fuel is craving and ignorance. The fire is nama and rupa (ie the khandas). Once that fuel is no longer being added (upon attainment of arahant) the fire will soon die out(khandha parinibbana Arahant is a term useful to designate a stream of nama and rupa (past, present or future) that no longer has avijja (and hence no other defilements). Before cuti citta(death moment) arises this stream is like a fire where no more fuel is added; at cuti citta the fire is finally extinguished. It is different for a non-arahant. The term non-arahant helps to designate a stream of nama and rupa where avijja and other defilements keep arising. These are the fuel and it is continually being added to (moments of insight excepted). When cuti citta arise for this stream the fire is simply passed to another place and the process continues. robert 16610 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Nov 1, 2002 8:18pm Subject: Re: to appreciate Buddhist goal of parinibbana2 --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Antony Woods" > I would like to believe that parinibbana is full of love > and compassion like the path is rather than just an > undifferentiated peace. > I would like to believe that the Buddha is still with us > in some way. Nibbana is not defined as non-existence. ___________________________ Dear Anthony, I add some more: I think sometimes we tend to think life is good , somehow, somewhere- if not now then in the future. But life is a concept and what there is is only the five khandhas - and they are dukkha. They arise and pass away, and oppress continually because there is no one who can stop them arising again and again, never ceasing even for an instant. In the 'Kindred Sayings' (V, Maha-vagga, Book XII, Kindred Sayings about the Truths, Ch. V, part 6, Gross darkness) that the Buddha explained to the monks about the most fearful and terrible thing: There is indeed, monk, another darkness, greater and more fearsome. And what is that other darkness? Monk, whatsoever recluses or brahmins understand not, as it really is, the meaning of: This is dukkha, this is the arising of dukkha, this is the ceasing of dukkha, this is the practice that leads to the ceasing of dukkha, such take delight in the activities which conduce to rebirth. Thus taking delight they compose a compound of activities which conduce to rebirth. Thus composing a compound of activities they fall down into the darkness of rebirth...and despair. They are not released from birth, and death...and despair. They are not released from dukkha, I declare. But, monk, those recluses or brahmins who do understand as it really is, the meaning of : This is dukkha, this is the practice that leads to the ceasing of dukkha, such take not delight in the activities which conduce to rebirth...They are released from dukkha, I declare. Wherefore, monk, an effort must be made to realize: This is dukkha. This is the arising of dukkha. This is the ceasing of dukkha. This is the practice that leads to the ceasing of dukkha.' "endquote Thus perhaps rather than hoping for some pleasant state of love and compasion a motivation for the path to parinibbana is seeing it as the gradual elimination of avijja (ignorance) -as James said- and thus the breaking up of the Paticcasamuppada - the wheel of birth and death. A. III. 32 This, truly, is Peace, this is the Highest, namely the end of all Karma formations, the forsaking of every substratum of rebirth, the fading away of craving. detachment, extinction, Nibbaana. A. I. 15 And it is impossible that a being possessed of right understanding should regard anything as the Self. S. XXII. 30 Hence the annihilation, cessation and overcoming of corporeality, feeling, perception, mental formations, and consciousness: this is the extinction of suffering, the end of disease, the overcoming of old age and death. (endsutta) From the Itivuttaka (no.38 PTS). I use Nyanaponika's translation (wheel 251/253) This was said by the Blessed one, sopken by the holy One , and thus have I heard: there are , o monks, two aspects of Nibbana; the Nibbana element with the groups of existence still remainin (saupadisesa-nibbanadhatu) and the Nibbana-element with no groups remaining (anupadisesa -nibbana dhatu). What is the Nibbana element with groups of existence still remaing? in that case , o monks, a monk is an arahant; he is taint free..but there still remain with him(until death) the five sense organs that have not yet disappeared and through which he still experiences what is pleasant and unpleasant, as well as bodily ease and pain. The extinction of greed, hatred and delusion in him, this is called the nibbana element with the groups of existence still remaining. And what is the Nibbana-element with no groups remaining? In that case a monk is an arahant..in him those feelings no longer relished , will even here (at his death) come to extinction. This is called the Nibbana-element with no groups of existence remaining. End Quote Robert 16611 From: antony272b2 Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 2:30am Subject: Re: to appreciate Buddhist goal of parinibbana2 Dear Robert (Robert K?), Thanks for your detailed responses. I can now appreciate that Nibbana is not aesthetically pleasing and I've read that it seems painful to the ordinary worldling. Maybe grieving the disappearance of the Buddha is just grieving suffering phenomena. Maybe the Buddha was not just a "nice" teacher but really demanded his disciples put their lives on the line. There were no smiley faces in your posts which remind me of the late Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw in their seriousness (I have his photo on my wall and formatted his comprehensive work on paticcasamuppada: ftp://ftp.buddhanet.net/therabud/mahasipt.zip I'm rather shocked and will close this post for now. with respect / Antony. --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear Anthony, > I add some more: > I think sometimes we tend to think life is good , somehow, somewhere- > if not now then in the future. > But life is a concept and what there is is only the five khandhas - and > they are dukkha. They arise and pass away, and oppress continually > because there is no one who can stop them arising again and again, > never ceasing even for an instant. > In the 'Kindred Sayings' (V, Maha-vagga, Book XII, Kindred > Sayings about the Truths, Ch. V, part 6, Gross darkness) that the > Buddha explained to the monks about the most fearful and terrible thing: 16612 From: James Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 5:42am Subject: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation"...include fear --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi James, > > I think anything within a Theravada context is on topic. "Fear" seems > like a good one to me. What's on your mind? > > Larry Larry, Related to this topic of concepts and how they shape our world; I am thinking more and more that most of the suffering and stress (dukkha) in our modern world is caused by fear and terror rather than craving and desire. These are my initial thoughts, not fully formed, but I wouldn't mind sharing. Before I delve into the reasons I am thinking this, let me quote one of my favorite sections from the suttas, the: Bhaya-bherava Sutta; Fear & Terror "The thought occurred to me: 'When priests or contemplatives who are drooling idiots, resort to isolated forest or wilderness dwellings, it's the fault of their drooling idiocy that they give rise to unskillful fear & terror. But it's not the case that I am a drooling idiot, when I resort to isolated forest or wilderness dwellings. I am consummate in discernment." This part delights me for two reasons: 1. The Buddha uses the term `drooling idiots' to describe some holy men/contemplatives/monks. Hmmm…very telling about his outlook concerning the sacrosanct, a time for harsh speech, etc., but I won't comment further 2. The Buddha gives the very simple and straightforward solution/cure to fear and terror (but not so easy to follow): Discernment. I am very interested in the Evolutionary Psychology theories of emotions and believe that fear is one emotion that, in our ever- changing, complicated society, is in overdrive. Fear, from an evolutionary perspective, served a very valuable purpose: it saved your neck! Fear allowed a person to respond quickly to dangerous situations, unfamiliar situations, and unexpected situations. And this response of fear is hardwired into us to activate whenever we feel threatened, unsure, confronted, unsafe, etc. Unfortunately, the level of fear in today's world, in my estimation, is higher than during the Buddha's time...and usually unnecessary fear. What is the difference between our modern society and the society of the Buddha? Just a few examples, in ancient India they did not have: cars, airplanes, telephones, computers, television, atomic bombs, credit cards, guns, public education, national debt, HMOs, serial killers, toxic waste, pollution, high divorce rate, neglected elderly, suicidal terrorists, etc, etc, etc,….get the picture? Our world is a LOT more stressful and unsure than the Buddha's was. The result is that we live with a lot of fear and insecurity. Additionally, something interesting happens when we do finally get ourselves into a secure job, house, minimal debt, nice family etc.; we usually create problems where there are none so that we can be afraid of them. We get so accustomed to feeling fear that we cannot seem to be `content' unless it is constantly running in the background of our minds. This `fear factor' is so strong in people that I don't know a single person, other than myself, who can easily go to sleep at night. Fear, terror, and anxiety will keep running even when the day is finished. Lately, I have been observing my own fear throughout the day and the fear I believe I see in others due to their actions, words, facial expressions, body language, etc. (purely subjective I know). It seems that `fear' is a way of life in this modern world and occurs much more frequently than desire or craving. After all, a lot of our modern conveniences have met a lot of our daily needs and desires…all except our need to feel safe and secure. As the Buddha said, we should use the faculty of `Discernment' to reduce this escalating fear (not tranquilizers, anti-anxiety medication, booze, or drugs; as are most often used nowadays). We should closely examine ourselves throughout the day, observe the emotions and reactions we have to our daily lives, and note the number of times we feel fear. Then, with discernment, determine if the fear is worth having. And most of the time, fear is not worth having unless a person is being attacked or threatened, or is in physical danger somehow. If the fear is not worth having, we should drop it! Rationally tell the mind not to be afraid, why there is no fear present/no danger around so there is no 'need' for the fear response, and the fear will usually go away (of course it may be back again in a few minutes, but it will take practice to keep taming it). This is one thing that we all can do, which doesn't require meditation practice, and will greatly enrich the quality and fullness of our lives. Metta, James ps. I know this is not as 'scholarly' as most of the posts here. My apologies. But I thought that some might benefit from it, or add a more 'Buddhist Scholarship' to it; or disprove it, which is fine also. 16613 From: abhidhammika Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 5:45am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sabbe dhammaa anattaa: To KKT Dear KKT You wrote the following. "...since one meaning of atta is that something << exists by itself >> and is << independent >> of other things." I wonder if you could post those meanings of atta in Pali or Sanskrit when you have spare time. I will like to check them side by side with the meanings of nibbana in that Udaana passage. Thanking in advance. With kind regards Suan --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "phamdluan2000" wrote: Dear Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: Hi, Rahula - Any interpretation which views nibbana as atta is, I believe, heretical, and the Dhammakaya Buddhist Meditation Institute's taking that position causes me to wonder about that organization. The Buddha's teachings are generally quite precise, and his using 'sankhara' twice, once with 'anicca' and once with 'dukkha', but then changing to 'dhamma' with regard to 'anatta' is quite unlikely to be unintentional. With metta, Howard KKT: A definition of Nibbana from the Udana: O bhikkhus, there is the unborn, ungrown, and unconditioned. Were there not the unborn, ungrown, and unconditioned, there would be no escape for the born, grown, and conditioned. Since there is the unborn, ungrown, and unconditioned, so there is escape for the born, grown, and conditioned. This definition could easily lead one to think that Nibbana is atta since one meaning of atta is that something << exists by itself >> and is << independent >> of other things. If Nibbana is << unborn, ungrown, and unconditioned >> then isn't Nibbana << existing by itself >> and << independent >> of everything? I raise this question not because I want to defend the atta doctrine but because I want to show that this matter is not easily to clinch. Peace, KKT 16614 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 6:02am Subject: Re: to appreciate Buddhist goal of parinibbana2 --- --- Dear Antony (BTW sorry for mispelling your name last post), I really appreciate your honesty in your letters. I certainly can't compare with the austerity and seriousness of any monks - particularly one like the venerable Mahasi . In fact I met 4 Korean girls at the pool today and we are all going out for dinner (but no wine, at least for me) in a couple of hours. So while I can write about and understand a little of what Dukkha means I am still very much entranced by the pleasant sights, sounds, tastes, smells, touch and mental objects of this world. I know they are dukkha at one level but I also know that it takes time for avijja (ignorance ) to be eliminated. There is so much accumulated tanha(desire) and avijja that to want to get rid of them fast is scary - and not really possible. But the avijja and tanha (as upadana) that arise in conjunction with wrongview are the most dangerous and these types can definitely be attenuated to whatever degree is suitable (to our accumulations) in this life. When you indicate the Dhamma requires us to put our lives on the line I think this is true in the sense that we may come to the day when we really surrender to the Buddha and dhamma and sangha. But it hinges on anatta becuase I think what this surrender means is giving up the idea of self. And that gradually. kind regards Robert K. In dhammastudygroup@y..., "antony272b2" wrote: > Dear Robert (Robert K?), > > Thanks for your detailed responses. > > I can now appreciate that Nibbana is not aesthetically pleasing and > I've read that it seems painful to the ordinary worldling. > > Maybe grieving the disappearance of the Buddha is just grieving > suffering phenomena. > > Maybe the Buddha was not just a "nice" teacher but really demanded > his disciples put their lives on the line. There were no smiley faces > in your posts which remind me of the late Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw in > their seriousness (I have his photo on my wall and formatted his > comprehensive work on paticcasamuppada: > ftp://ftp.buddhanet.net/therabud/mahasipt.zip > > I'm rather shocked and will close this post for now. > with respect / Antony. > 16615 From: James Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 6:06am Subject: Re: to appreciate Buddhist goal of parinibbana2 Anthony, If I may comment on this spiritual angst you are so honorably expressing in a truthful way: --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "antony272b2" wrote: > Dear Robert (Robert K?), > > Thanks for your detailed responses. > > I can now appreciate that Nibbana is not aesthetically pleasing and > I've read that it seems painful to the ordinary worldling. (The Buddha said that we are all on fire with dukkha. We are burning, burning, burning, suffering, suffering, suffering...and Nibbana is when the fire is finally put out. I find that very aesthetically pleasing. Nibbana is not painful; it is the opposite of painful. It is pure joy, love, peace, acceptance, wisdom, understanding, etc. It is a light of purity that will fill your heart and mind with everlasting peace. It is the the best there is, nothing higher. Parinibbana is this, even more so! The last fetters, defilements, and karma have been dropped away. Is there 'existence' after Nibbana. The Buddha refused to have a view on this or to answer; he said it wasn't important. But, he very specifically said that it wasn't a complete 'nothing' or 'void'. So it doesn't take much logic to determine that it must be something. What is it? I am not sure of course, but when I think of this, for some reason, I always think of that line from '2001; A Space Oddessey', "It's Full of Stars." > > Maybe grieving the disappearance of the Buddha is just grieving > suffering phenomena. (Some may think I am crazy for saying this; but that wouldn't be a first for me. :-) I believe that the Buddha visited me once during a meditation. I specifically could feel his presence with me, and I could feel that it was pure love and acceptance like I have never felt before. And I could 'hear' his thoughts in my mind to go to Thailand and discover if I wanted to become a monk or not. And he was right. I didn't become one, but I learned a lot in the process. I think the Buddha is still out there, and in there, and everywhere. :-) Smile! :-) You already know this! Trust your feelings. Love, James > Maybe the Buddha was not just a "nice" teacher but really demanded > his disciples put their lives on the line. There were no smiley faces > in your posts which remind me of the late Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw in > their seriousness (I have his photo on my wall and formatted his > comprehensive work on paticcasamuppada: > ftp://ftp.buddhanet.net/therabud/mahasipt.zip > > I'm rather shocked and will close this post for now. > with respect / Antony. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > Dear Anthony, > > I add some more: > > I think sometimes we tend to think life is good , somehow, > somewhere- > > if not now then in the future. > > But life is a concept and what there is is only the five khandhas - > and > > they are dukkha. They arise and pass away, and oppress continually > > because there is no one who can stop them arising again and again, > > never ceasing even for an instant. > > In the 'Kindred Sayings' (V, Maha-vagga, Book XII, Kindred > > Sayings about the Truths, Ch. V, part 6, Gross darkness) that the > > Buddha explained to the monks about the most fearful and terrible > thing: > 16616 From: Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 1:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: to appreciate Buddhist goal of parinibbana1 Hi, Robert - In a message dated 11/1/02 11:08:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > > The fuel is craving > and ignorance. The fire is nama and rupa (ie the khandas). Once > that fuel is no longer being added (upon attainment of arahant) > the fire will soon die out(khandha parinibbana > Arahant is a term useful to designate a stream of nama and rupa > (past, present or future) that no longer has avijja (and hence > no other defilements). > Before cuti citta(death moment) arises this stream is like a > fire where no > more fuel is added; at cuti citta the fire is finally > extinguished. > ============================ How, please, is that different from the atheist/materialist annihilationist picture of death? [Unless, of course, the cessation of namarupa is not the cessation of awareness in *every* possible sense, but only of a particular, dualistic sort of defiled awareness flowing out of unexpired kamma.] Some people will answer that this would be an annihilationist view only if to begin with there is a self which is annihilated at death. But I find that response to be inadequate, because a complete cessation of awareness in every possible sense, even a non-samsaric sense, is annihilationist enough for me. It seems to me that the passages in the Udana and elsewhere suggest a meaning for nibbana that is something else, something that is neither the becoming of the worlding nor the nothingness of absolute death. And, in fact, throughout the Sutta Pitaka, the most common characterizations of nibbana are that it is the end of dukkha and the end of the three poisons. Also, it seems to me that if the death-simile for nibbana had been the core understanding presented by the Buddha, it would have led to words other than 'Buddha' and 'bodhi' - it would have led to words which instead of denoting an awakened one and the awakened state would signify nothingness and annihilation. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16617 From: Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 2:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation"...include fear Hi, James - In a message dated 11/2/02 8:44:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > Bhaya-bherava Sutta; > Fear &Terror > > "The thought occurred to me: 'When priests or contemplatives who are > drooling idiots, resort to isolated forest or wilderness dwellings, > it's the fault of their drooling idiocy that they give rise to > unskillful fear &terror. But it's not the case that I am a drooling > idiot, when I resort to isolated forest or wilderness dwellings. I am > consummate in discernment." > > This part delights me for two reasons: 1. The Buddha uses the > term `drooling idiots' to describe some holy > men/contemplatives/monks. Hmmm…very telling about his outlook > concerning the sacrosanct, a time for harsh speech, etc., but I won't > comment further ======================== That is a buddha speaking. When we are buddhas/arahants, and the circumstances are suitable, perhaps we will speak that way as well. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16618 From: James Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 7:46am Subject: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation"...include fear Howard, Oops...I was hoping you wouldn't notice that! hehehe... I am not sure if I agree with your perspective; after all, would it matter to those being referred to as 'drooling idiots' if a Buddha said it or not? Probably not, after all, they are drooling idiots! hehehe... Smile, it was not sour grapes. I was just making a general comment about our society and world. Ever since going to Thailand, my eyes have been opened to the abuses of religious power, everywhere. I believe the sacrosanct is becoming a strong hinderance to following the Buddhist path in today's Buddhism, but that may be the Zen in me. However, I am entitled to my opinion. What did you think of the rest of the post? I would value your input. Metta, James --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, James - > > In a message dated 11/2/02 8:44:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, > buddhatrue@y... writes: > > > Bhaya-bherava Sutta; > > Fear &Terror > > > > "The thought occurred to me: 'When priests or contemplatives who are > > drooling idiots, resort to isolated forest or wilderness dwellings, > > it's the fault of their drooling idiocy that they give rise to > > unskillful fear &terror. But it's not the case that I am a drooling > > idiot, when I resort to isolated forest or wilderness dwellings. I am > > consummate in discernment." > > > > This part delights me for two reasons: 1. The Buddha uses the > > term `drooling idiots' to describe some holy > > men/contemplatives/monks. Hmmm…very telling about his outlook > > concerning the sacrosanct, a time for harsh speech, etc., but I won't > > comment further > ======================== > That is a buddha speaking. When we are buddhas/arahants, and the > circumstances are suitable, perhaps we will speak that way as well. > > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > > > > > 16619 From: Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 3:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation"...include fear Hi, James - In a message dated 11/2/02 10:48:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > Howard, > Oops...I was hoping you wouldn't notice that! hehehe... I am not > sure if I agree with your perspective; after all, would it matter to > those being referred to as 'drooling idiots' if a Buddha said it or > not? Probably not, after all, they are drooling idiots! hehehe... > > Smile, it was not sour grapes. I was just making a general comment > about our society and world. Ever since going to Thailand, my eyes > have been opened to the abuses of religious power, everywhere. I > believe the sacrosanct is becoming a strong hinderance to following > the Buddhist path in today's Buddhism, but that may be the Zen in > me. However, I am entitled to my opinion. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Certainly. As far as bhikkhus are concerned, it is obviously true that becoming a bhikkhu does not automatically make one "holy". Not all bhikkhus are admirable, but all should be accorded respect out of respect for the position, out of respect for the institution of the sangha. ----------------------------------------------- > What did you think of the > rest of the post? I would value your input. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree that aversion, with fear, anger, hatred etc as special cases, is a more harmful category of defilement than craving. (Of course, aversion is a kind of craving - craving for absence/cessation.) More generally, there has been much in your recent posts that appeals to me, especially the "sense of life" it reflects. [Just my opinion.] ------------------------------------------------ > > Metta, James ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16620 From: James Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 8:59am Subject: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation"...include fear --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, James - > > In a message dated 11/2/02 10:48:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, > buddhatrue@y... writes: > > > Howard, > > Oops...I was hoping you wouldn't notice that! hehehe... I am not > > sure if I agree with your perspective; after all, would it matter to > > those being referred to as 'drooling idiots' if a Buddha said it or > > not? Probably not, after all, they are drooling idiots! hehehe... > > > > Smile, it was not sour grapes. I was just making a general comment > > about our society and world. Ever since going to Thailand, my eyes > > have been opened to the abuses of religious power, everywhere. I > > believe the sacrosanct is becoming a strong hinderance to following > > the Buddhist path in today's Buddhism, but that may be the Zen in > > me. However, I am entitled to my opinion. > ---------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Certainly. As far as bhikkhus are concerned, it is obviously true that > becoming a bhikkhu does not automatically make one "holy". Not all bhikkhus > are admirable, but all should be accorded respect out of respect for the > position, out of respect for the institution of the sangha. James: Hmmmm...I think I understand your position a bit more clear now. Not sure if I completely agree; but it is definitely admirable. Those who follow pure principles are becoming more and more rare nowadays. However, my thinking is that this position can lead to a 'slippery slope' of religious corruption. I believe more in the Buddha's system of 'Checks and Balances'. He supported that the behavior and practice of a monk should determine if he is affored 'respect' and should be 'worthy of gifts', not his position in the Sangha. Tough issue, but the future of Buddhism depends on it. > ----------------------------------------------- > > > What did you think of the > > rest of the post? I would value your input. > ----------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I agree that aversion, with fear, anger, hatred etc as special cases, > is a more harmful category of defilement than craving. (Of course, aversion > is a kind of craving - craving for absence/cessation.) More generally, there > has been much in your recent posts that appeals to me, especially the "sense > of life" it reflects. [Just my opinion.] James: *Blush, Blush* Thank you for the kind words. Yes, of course fear is a form of aversion, which is actually craving. But most don't see it that way. I was suggesting a new way to look at the original teachings. Nothing new here really, still all goes back to the Buddha. Thankfully, the Buddha's teachings are timeless and complete as they are. As I study the Abihdhamma more and ponder it more, I am starting to view it as an over-intellectualization of the Buddha's profound, yet simple, teachings. But I could be biased. The jury is still not in with me. :-) Metta, James > ------------------------------------------------ > > > > > Metta, James > ========================== > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > > > 16621 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 9:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 19, . Pali texts co and subco. Dear Larry, you quoted: In the commentary it is said that by way of remembering and of meeting in one thing, the Arousing of Mindfulness is only one; and that it is fourfold when regarded as a subject of meditation. [Tika} "By way of remembering": by way of the reflection of actions of skill, and so forth, of body, speech, and thought. [T] "Meeting in one thing" = union in the one-natured Nibbana. Nina: Pali of Co: a.t.thakathaaya.m pana sara.navasena (because of remembering) ceva ekattasamosara.navasena (because meeting, associating in unity) ca ekameva satipa.t.thaana.m (satip is one) aaramma.navasena (because of the objects) cattaaroti etadeva vutta.m (it is said to be fourfold). subcommentary: sara.navasenaati kaayaadiina.m kusalaadidhammaana~nca upadhaara.navasena. N: because of remembrance, it is said. And because of consideration of kusala dhammas through the body, etc. saranti gacchanti nibbaana.m etaayaati satiiti N:They recollect, they go to nibbana, by means of this, namely, sati. imasmi.m atthe ekatte ekasabhaave nibbaane samosara.na.m samaagamo ekattasamosara.na.m. N: as to this meaning there is a coming together, in unity, in nibbana with one nature, an assembling in unity. (this is coarse. I am grateful you press me on the Pali texts Jim took so much trouble to give to me.) You remember the post before about recollecting by sati: I quoted the Co to the Sekha-sutta (M. 53): the Papa~ncasuudanii. > The words: discrimination, remembering, recollecting what he has done and said long > ago.> .... the words done long ago (carikata.mpi): the > development of > the practice, namely, the eighty religious duties (vatta), such as the > duties of the shrine terrace, which someone does himself or which others > do > long ago, through bodily action the words said long ago (caribhaasita.mpi): words which someone > himself has spoken or others have spoken long ago.> The Co gives > examples of > extending merit, anumodana, meetings, teaching, etc. > The words remembering and recollecting are explained in English in my > PTs > edition: saritaa, remembering once, and anusaritaa, remembering again > and > again. > The Co speaks again about kamma through body and speech, explaining that > kamma through the body done long ago, means, through body-intimation ( > the > rupa which is kayavi~n~natti) and kamma through speech, done long ago, > means, through speech-intimation (the rupa which is vaci-vi~n~natti). It > explains that there are ruupa, citta and cetasika, thus, rupa dhammas > and > arupa dhammas: there should be awareness of them as: they arise thus, > they > fall away thus. Here sati as factor of enlightenment has been explained, > according to the co. It states that by this kind of sati the ariyan > disciple > knows: because > there can be awareness often.>End quote of Co. I have a question to Rob K: Rob, you said that this kind of remembrance is a wholesome accumulation which can condition the arising of sati now. I like to hear more, could you take it up with A. Sujin? I understand that the accumulation of the inclination to kusala is a support, but what is the role of this kind of remembrance? We may not remember at all the kusala we did. Larry, you asked about meditation subjects: did people ask the Buddha? Yes. We see in the Co about the daily routine of the Buddha: they came to ask him kammatthanas. We have to understand this in the right way. The Buddha, before his enlightenment, was taught meditation subjects leading to rupajhana and arupajhana, but he found out: this is not the way. Would he after his enlightenmennt merely teach in the same way as his teachers taught him before his enlightenment? No. He taught that even jhanacitta should not be taken for self, that there must be awareness of one nama or rupa at a time as it appears now through one of the six dooways. Insight must be developed, otherwise no way leading to the end of the cycle. Thus he taught to Rahula: how can mindfulness of breathing be of great benefit? He taught Rahula first mindfulness of breathing and then about the elements. Also the Co (as I quoted before): what is the kammatthana leading to arahatship: the khandhas, the dhatus (elements), the ayatanas. Eventually all namas and rupas which appear now have to be thoroughly known as they are. Thus, when reading in the satipatthana sutta about the different meditation subjects, we should understand this in the right way. The Buddha gave these subjects a totally new dimension, a different, a higher meaning. The Buddha would not omit teaching the four noble Truths he had penetrated when he became the Sammasambuddha. He continued to teach the one way, the best way. I read in the subco. a passage about the many aspects of the one way, and now we can understand this in the right sense: naanaamukhabhaavanaanayappavattoti kaayaanupassanaadimukhena tatthaapi aanaapaanaadimukhena bhaavanaanayena pavatto. ekaayananti ekagaamina.m, nibbaanagaaminanti attho. nibbaana~nhi adutiyattaa se.t.thattaa ca ``eka''nti vuccati. N: naanaamukhabhaavanaanayappavattoti: mukha: face or aspect. the method of precedure has many aspects of development, a procedure of methods with the aspect of mindfulness of body etc., and also mindfulness of breathing, etc. One way, one course, meaning, it goes to nibbana. Nibbana is not two, and it is the best (settho), it is said that it is one. This is a coarse translation, I wellcome corrections. With appreciation for your study and all the considering of what you are reading, Nina. op 01-11-2002 01:33 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > In the commentary it is said that by way of remembering and of meeting > in one thing, the Arousing of Mindfulness is only one; and that it is > fourfold when regarded as a subject of meditation. > > [Tika} "By way of remembering": by way of the reflection of actions of > skill, and so forth, of body, speech, and thought. > Does anyone have the pali version of this? I was wondering if "skill" is > a translation of kusala. If so it would reinforce previous research that > indicates "sati" is the recollection of ethical considerations. 16622 From: Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 10:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation"...include fear Hi James, I agree "fear" is an important topic and I can say from experience it is the cause of many a sleepless night. It came up in the Satipatthana Sutta Commentary and we have been discussing it in this thread: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/16375 A related essay by Bhikkhu Bodhi can be found at Access To Insight if you search for "Subrahma". Both hope and fear are based on the concept that there is something to gain or loose. best wishes, Larry 16623 From: Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 10:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 19, . Pali texts co and subco. Hi Nina, Thanks very much for the detailed reply concerning sati as recollection of kusala. I am still uneasy about my understanding of this. I've been calling it recollection of ethical considerations but I don't think "ethical" is quite the right word. "Ethical" is too narrowly concerned with interpersonal relations, while "kusala" is very broadly, as you translate, "wholesome". I guess for now I will be satisfied with simply saying sati is recollection of kusala and satipatthana is directing that kusala toward nibbana, unless you have some qualms about this. best wishes, Larry 16624 From: Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 10:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: to appreciate Buddhist goal of parinibbana2 Hi Antony, I've been trying to find something to cheer you up. This (below) was in my mailbox. It's from another (semiVedanta) group, but it may do the trick. Larry ---------------- On that day, I truly realized how ordinary I was in every way and it filled my heart with gladness and joy. And knowing my own Heart, and realizing that it was the One Heart, all the scriptures made sense, and all the teachings lost their hold. Over time, it seemed like my heart was some leaky faucet that could no longer be contained with love seeping out in drips.... little drops, little drops, big drops...... If we see clearly with the mind, the nature of the mind, we see that the ordinary mind is the Buddha Mind. So there is not much to do but to breathe in and breathe out in gratitude, love, and awareness and go about your daily life. Love to all Harsha 16625 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 11:35am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation" Dear James, Welcome to DSG. I don't agree on everything you say, but I am appreciative of your interests. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: James [mailto:buddhatrue@y...] > Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 8:34 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation" > > > Larry and Kom, > 16626 From: James Mitchell Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 0:44pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation" --- Kom Tukovinit <kom@a...> wrote: > Dear James, > > Welcome to DSG. I don't agree on everything you > say, but I > am appreciative of your interests. > > kom Kom, Thank you for the welcome and accepting my participation in your discussion. I especially appreciate this type of disagreement. It is less nit-picky, showy, and gentler than most. Take care. Metta, James ===== Two men look out the same prison bars; one sees mud and the other stars. ~ Frederick Langbridge ~ 16627 From: James Mitchell Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 0:45pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation" --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear James, > > Welcome to DSG. I don't agree on everything you > say, but I > am appreciative of your interests. > > kom Hi Kom, Thank you for the welcome and accepting my participation in your discussion. I especially appreciate this type of disagreement. It is less nit-picky, showy, and gentler than most. Take care. Metta, James ===== Two men look out the same prison bars; one sees mud and the other stars. ~ Frederick Langbridge ~ 16628 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 2:35pm Subject: Re: to appreciate Buddhist goal of parinibbana2 Hi Antony, and All, Possibly, I'm feeling a little more samvega than usual today, so forgive me if I say that I'm glad you are shocked. :) Being shocked is very good - It makes you think - even if only to try to understand what shocks you and why, and refute it. Hopefully, eventually, you'll thank RobK for being the condition for your shock. Shock can wake us up. I've been shocked on and off by various posts ever since finding out that Buddhism wasn't a sweet and gentle, warm and fuzzy, touchy/feely, way to worldly happiness, with a ticket to heaven-by-another-name attached. Buddhism is a sure and certain way out of Samsara, the relentless Round of Becoming. But only if you find the true Path and then only if you walk on it. That is all the Blessed One came to teach - Impermanence, Unsatisfactoriness, No-self - and the Pathway out. It is up to us whether we realise our incredible good fortune at being born as a human while the Dhamma still exists in the world. It is up to us to follow the true Teachings and make it to the Exit, or swirl away in the stream for uncountable suffering lives in various forms again. There is no everloving Buddha/God/Brahma/Ground of All Being who will personally rescue us. The Buddha left his Teachings for us. Each of us could die tomorrow, and who knows when we would find this Dhamma again. There is no guaranteed step by step progression in each life. Meaning well is not enough. There is no special protection for a good bloke like you or a great shiela like me :), it is just as possible for us to tumble way, way back as it has been for anyone anywhere in the world throughout beginningless time. The extinguishing of the defilements and the accumulation of wisdom and insight is difficult, wasting time on what we 'wish' or 'would like to believe' the Buddha meant is dangerous, there are no guarantees about protection from harm or length of life - hence the Buddha urged us to practice 'as if our hair was on fire'. I find it easy to see impermanence, easy to see suffering - but the hardest of all is Anatta. Most of this post is really me talking to myself, and I hope I haven't offended. Thank you for being the condition for my reflections. much metta and karuna, Antony Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "antony272b2" wrote: > Dear Robert (Robert K?), > > Thanks for your detailed responses. > > I can now appreciate that Nibbana is not aesthetically pleasing and > I've read that it seems painful to the ordinary worldling. > > Maybe grieving the disappearance of the Buddha is just grieving > suffering phenomena. > > Maybe the Buddha was not just a "nice" teacher but really demanded > his disciples put their lives on the line. There were no smiley faces > in your posts which remind me of the late Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw in > their seriousness (I have his photo on my wall and formatted his > comprehensive work on paticcasamuppada: > ftp://ftp.buddhanet.net/therabud/mahasipt.zip > > I'm rather shocked and will close this post for now. > with respect / Antony. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > Dear Anthony, > > I add some more: > > I think sometimes we tend to think life is good , somehow, > somewhere- > > if not now then in the future. > > But life is a concept and what there is is only the five khandhas - > and > > they are dukkha. They arise and pass away, and oppress continually > > because there is no one who can stop them arising again and again, > > never ceasing even for an instant. > > In the 'Kindred Sayings' (V, Maha-vagga, Book XII, Kindred > > Sayings about the Truths, Ch. V, part 6, Gross darkness) that the > > Buddha explained to the monks about the most fearful and terrible > thing: > 16629 From: Antony Woods Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 5:36pm Subject: Buddha's gradual instruction Dear Christine, Robert K and all, Our experience of the Buddha's teachings is very different to that of the Buddha's time. We can read volumes of the Buddha's words but cannot talk to him in person. In Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary I found the Buddha's gradual instruction i.e. dana, sila, heaven, drawback of sensual pleasures, renunciation; and then when (and maybe only when) "the Blessed One perceived that the listener's mind was prepared, pliant, free from obstacles, elevated and lucid; then he explained to him that exalted teaching particular to the Buddhas, that is: suffering, its cause, its ceasing, and the path." http://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic3_a.htm http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma.html So for people at a stage which is far from elevated and lucid the Buddha may not have even mentioned the word dukkha at all, maybe because it could be misunderstood as saying that they have a self that is suffering, that they are a failure etc. etc. Thanks for listening, Antony. anupubbi-katha: 'gradual instruction', progressive sermon; given by the Buddha when it was necessary to prepare first the listener's mind before speaking to him on the advanced teaching of the Four Noble Truths. The stock passage (e.g. D. 3; D 14; M. 56) runs as follows: "Then the Blessed One gave him a gradual instruction - that is to say, he spoke on liberality ('giving', dana, q.v.), on moral conduct (sila) and on the heaven (sagga); he explained the peril, the vanity and the depravity of sensual pleasures, and the advantage of renunciation. When the Blessed One perceived that the listener's mind was prepared, pliant, free from obstacles, elevated and lucid; then he explained to him that exalted teaching particular to the Buddhas (buddhanam samukkamsika desana), that is: suffering, its cause, its ceasing, and the path." http://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic3_a.htm 16630 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 6:39pm Subject: Re: Buddha's gradual instruction --- Dear Anthony, Yes this is a good point. In the Netti-pakarana it says (from memory) that the Buddha at times taught reward, at times danger and at other times both reward and danger (I forget the exact words)depending on the needs of the listener. One of the advantages of studying broadly is that one will find passages that seem to speak directly to us. Other passages may seem redundant or unhelpful so we need to learn how to pass those by without feeling daunted or annoyed by them. And who knows whether they might be useful in future times. I think the heart of the Dhamma points to the direct insight into the characteristics of the presently arising dhamma, so it isn't strictly necessary to study so many details. And yet if there isn't sufficient wisom to insight dhammas then how can it develop without some study to attentuate the avijja and clinging to wrongview that blocks insight. Robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Antony Woods" wrote: > Dear Christine, Robert K and all, > > Our experience of the Buddha's teachings is very different > to that of the Buddha's time. We can read volumes of the > Buddha's words but cannot talk to him in person. In > Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary I found the Buddha's > gradual instruction i.e. dana, sila, heaven, drawback of > sensual pleasures, renunciation; and then when (and maybe > only when) "the Blessed One perceived that the listener's > mind was prepared, pliant, free from obstacles, elevated > and lucid; then he explained to him that exalted teaching > particular to the Buddhas, that is: suffering, its cause, > its ceasing, and the path." > plans/2monthsfree.asp 16631 From: Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 7:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 18, Comm. [Tika] Drawing distinctions, it is said: Body and feeling are the cause of zest [assadassa karana]. Hi all, What does assadassa mean? Is it the same as piti ('joyful interest')? thanks, Larry 16632 From: James Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 7:38pm Subject: Parenthetical Citations Hello Friends, I have a question for this group of scholars. I am quite confused about the uniform way to cite Buddhist scripture in parenthetical citations. For example, I went to the Buddhist Dictionary Antony hyperlinked and I found this type of parenthetical cite: (See A. VI, 102; A. VII, 48; Ud. IV, 1; S. XXII, 102) I don't know how to read this to find these references. I checked my MLA Handbook and it doesn't give examples for Buddhist scripture, only the Bible; and the above example isn't comparable to those examples. Of course my copy of the MLA Handbook isn't one of the newest ones. Is the standard for Buddhist scripture in the newest Handbook? Can anyone tell me a resource for how to read these parenthetical citations? Thank you in advance for any help offered. Metta, James 16633 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 7:57pm Subject: Re: Parenthetical Citations Hi James, I get equally confused at times. Most hard copy Texts have a list in the front citing which edition, translation, and publisher they are using. It differs from author to author. For instance, recently I was feeling frustrated at reading "An Introduction to Buddhist Ethics" because Peter Harvey has used different translations of the Nikayas to the ones I have at home or can access on the Net. (It would have been SO much easier if he had 'named' the Suttas instead of using the page numbers of his editions...) An example of the system of abbreviations that one respected on-line dictionary uses can be found at: http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/abbreviations.html metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "James" wrote: > Hello Friends, > > I have a question for this group of scholars. I am quite confused > about the uniform way to cite Buddhist scripture in parenthetical > citations. For example, I went to the Buddhist Dictionary Antony > hyperlinked and I found this type of parenthetical cite: > (See A. VI, 102; A. VII, 48; Ud. IV, 1; S. XXII, 102) > > I don't know how to read this to find these references. I checked > my MLA Handbook and it doesn't give examples for Buddhist scripture, > only the Bible; and the above example isn't comparable to those > examples. Of course my copy of the MLA Handbook isn't one of the > newest ones. Is the standard for Buddhist scripture in the newest > Handbook? Can anyone tell me a resource for how to read these > parenthetical citations? Thank you in advance for any help offered. > > Metta, James 16634 From: Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 8:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 19, Comm. Further these Four Arousings of Mindfulness were taught not only for the purpose of casting out the four illusions, but for getting rid of the four floods, bonds, outflowings, knots, clingings, wrong courses, and the penetration of fourfold nutriment, too. This is according to the method of exegesis in the Nettipakarana. Hi all, Here is something from Visuddhimagga XIV par. 226: And in particular, one who sees internal materiality as foul (ugly) fully understands nutriment consisting of physical nutriment. He abandons the perversion [of perceiving] beauty in the foul (ugly), he crosses the flood of sense desire, he is loosed from the bond of sense desire, he becomes canker free as regards the canker of sense desire, he breaks the bodily tie of covetousness. He does not cling with sense-desire clinging. One who sees feeling as pain fully understands nutriment consisting of contact. He abandons the perversion of perceiving pleasure in the painful. He crosses the flood of becoming. He is loosed from the bond of becoming. He becomes caker free as regards the canker of becoming. He breaks the bodily tie of ill-will. He does not cling with rites-and-ritual clinging. One who sees perception and formations as not-self fully understands nutriment consisting of mental volition. He abandons the perversion of perceiving self in the not-self. He crosses the flood of views. He is loosed from the bond of views. He breaks the bodiy tie of interpretations (insistence) that 'This is the truth'. He does not cling with self-theory clinging. One who sees consciousness as impermanent fully understands nutriment consisting of consciousness. He abandons the perversion of perceiving permanence in the impermanent. He crosses the flood of ignorance. He is loosed from the bond of ignorance. He breaks the bodily tie of holding to rites and rituals. He does not [cling with false-] view clinging. -----------------end quote L: So seeing consciousness as impermanent, perception and formation as not self, feeling as pain, and internal materiality as foul is, in brief, the sum total of the vipassana aspect of satipatthana. Correct? Larry note: the above listing of the 4 satipatthanas is slightly out of order, i.e., body, feeling, dhamma, consciousness. 16635 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 8:05pm Subject: Re: Buddha's gradual instruction Hi Antony, Thanks for your reply - I came to Buddhism accidently via a short meditation course, heard the Dhamma and stayed because it talked about Dukkha, and had an explanation of Dukkha. Afterwards, kamma and rebirth seemed naturally to fit, and I can accept anatta, so far only intellectually. But from the foundation of the Teachings on Dukkha all else flows. Dukkha seemed the most obvious, unavoidable, and up until then, inexplicable fact in the world. I feel the Buddha would have had to have taught on that topic at all levels - Suffering, from all sorts of causes, would have been so extremely apparent. Then, as now, Suffering and Impermanence would have been the major cause for people to think beyond a life of hedonism. I was a Christian prior to needing to find a solution to Suffering - plenty of agape (love), morality, compassion, and community with the Christians. I was happy there, and found no need to change, until I couldn't buy their explanation for Suffering. I remember the answer a respected meditation/Dhamma teacher gave when asked why there weren't very many teenagers in the Dhamma class - "They haven't suffered enough yet. They still believe they're ten foot tall and bullet proof." A good point though not to judge others experience by ones own. Nice 'reading' you, Antony. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Antony Woods" wrote: > Dear Christine, Robert K and all, > > Our experience of the Buddha's teachings is very different > to that of the Buddha's time. We can read volumes of the > Buddha's words but cannot talk to him in person. In > Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary I found the Buddha's > gradual instruction i.e. dana, sila, heaven, drawback of > sensual pleasures, renunciation; and then when (and maybe > only when) "the Blessed One perceived that the listener's > mind was prepared, pliant, free from obstacles, elevated > and lucid; then he explained to him that exalted teaching > particular to the Buddhas, that is: suffering, its cause, > its ceasing, and the path." > http://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic3_a.htm > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma.html > > So for people at a stage which is far from elevated and > lucid the Buddha may not have even mentioned the word > dukkha at all, maybe because it could be misunderstood as > saying that they have a self that is suffering, that they > are a failure etc. etc. > > Thanks for listening, > Antony. > > > anupubbi-katha: 'gradual instruction', progressive sermon; given by the > Buddha when it was necessary to prepare first the listener's mind > before speaking to him on the advanced teaching of the Four Noble > Truths. The stock passage (e.g. D. 3; D 14; M. 56) runs as follows: > "Then the Blessed One gave him a gradual instruction - that is to say, > he spoke on liberality ('giving', dana, q.v.), on moral conduct (sila) > and on the heaven (sagga); he explained the peril, the vanity and the > depravity of sensual pleasures, and the advantage of renunciation. When > the Blessed One perceived that the listener's mind was prepared, > pliant, free from obstacles, elevated and lucid; then he explained to > him that exalted teaching particular to the Buddhas (buddhanam > samukkamsika desana), that is: suffering, its cause, its ceasing, and > the path." > http://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic3_a.htm 16636 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 8:16pm Subject: Re: PERFECTIONS Thank you Christine, you really are a helpful person. I now have all those posts pasted into one document. (Thanks also to Nina, by the way.) Just one mistake: For Ch 3 No 8, you have given message 14646 where it should be 14644. Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear group, (esp. Azita), > > I have typed a listing of the postings Nina has made of her > translations of "Perfections" by A. Sujin, with hyperlinks, in case > anyone joined in on the series late and would like an easy reference > for reading. Hope there are no errors. The Links for Chapters 1 to > 5 16637 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 8:27pm Subject: Re: PERFECTIONS Thanks for letting me know KenH - I've fixed my copy and will make a note when I post the next installment. metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "kenhowardau" wrote: > Thank you Christine, you really are a helpful person. I > now have all those posts pasted into one document. > (Thanks also to Nina, by the way.) > > Just one mistake: For Ch 3 No 8, you have given message > 14646 where it should be 14644. > > Ken H 16638 From: Star Kid Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 8:36pm Subject: Buddhism message ****************************************************** Hi everyone, My name is Jan Chearavanont and I am 11 years old.I live in Hong Kong but my dad is Thai and my mom is Korean. My first languge is English and Thai and my second languge is Chinese but im not so good at speaking or writing in chinese. Unfotunatly I dont speak Korean so I might learn that is the future. Last year I was learning about different types of religons such as Buddhism and so Mrs Abbott,my english tutor said that mabye I can write a small message to everyone who is intrested in the descussion group. Recently one of my teachers past away from the Bali Bomb , his name was Mr Wash-till...i was quite upset about it. I always belived in recarnation and so i always think that Mr. Wash-till would recarnate and i might even get to see him in his future life. I hope to hear from you. Jan De Liver De Letter De Sooner De Better De Later De Letter De Madder I Getter Thx ------------------------------------------------------ 16639 From: Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 3:38pm Subject: Buddha's Parinibbana: "Like a flame's unbinding was the liberation of awareness" Hi, all - A liberated awareness is still awareness. It is well described as vi~n~nanam anidassanam anantam sabbato paham (translated as "discernment, non-manifestive, infinite, accessible from all round"), and this in answer to the question of where the four great elements stop without remainder. [The preceding is taken from the Kevaddha Sutta of the Digha Nikaya as translated by Peter Harvey. Maurice Walshe translates it as "Where consciousness is signless, boundless, all luminous"] The following is the ending of the Parinibbana Sutta (taken from ATI), translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu: ************************** When the Blessed One was totally Unbound, simultaneously with the total Unbinding, Ven. Anuruddha uttered this verse:
wrote: > passing on any replies. Sarah> > ****************************************************** > > Hi everyone, > > My name is Jan Chearavanont and I am 11 years old.I > live in Hong Kong but my dad is Thai and my mom is > Korean. My first languge is > English and Thai and my second languge is Chinese but > im not so good at speaking or writing in > chinese. Unfotunatly I dont speak Korean so I might > learn that is the future. > > Last year I was learning about different types of > religons such as Buddhism and so Mrs Abbott,my english > tutor said that mabye I can write a small message to > everyone who is intrested in the descussion group. > > Recently one of my teachers past away from the Bali > Bomb , his name was Mr Wash-till...i was quite upset > about it. > > I always belived in recarnation and so i always think > that Mr. Wash-till would recarnate and i might even > get to see him in his future life. > > I hope to hear from you. > Jan > > De Liver > > De Letter > > De Sooner > > De Better > > De Later > > De Letter > > De Madder > > I Getter > > Thx 16642 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 10:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhism message Correction: He will be reborn. There is no "reincarnation" as such for there is no soul to reincarnate. Reincarnation is a Hindu concept/notion. Rebirth is quite different from the Dhamma perspective. Here is what will make clarification: patisandhi: lit. 'reunion, relinking', i.e. rebirth, is one of the 14 functions of consciousness (viññána-kicca, q.v.). It is a karma-resultant type of consciousness and arises at the moment of conception i.e. with the forming of new life in the mother's womb. Immediately afterwards it sinks into the subconscious stream of existence (bhavangasota, q.v.), and conditioned thereby ever and ever again corresponding states of subconsciousness arise. Thus it is really rebirth-consciousness that determines the latent character of a person. "Neither has this (rebirth-) consciousness transmigrated from the previous existence to this present existence, nor did it arise without such conditions, as karma, karma-formations, propensity, object, etc. That this consciousness has not come from the previous existence to this present existence, yet that it has come into existence by means of conditions included in the previous existence, such as karma (q.v.), etc., this fact may be illustrated by various things, such as the echo, the light of a lamp, the impression of a seal, or the image produced by a mirror. For just as the resounding of the echo is conditioned by a sound, etc., and nowhere a transmigration of sound has taken place, just so it is with this consciousness. Further it is said: 'In this continuous process, no sameness and no otherness can be found.' For if there were full identity (between the different stages), then also milk never could turn into curd. And if there were a complete otherness, then curd could never come from milk.... If in a continuity of existence any karma-result takes place, then this karma-result neither belongs to any other being, nor does it come from any other (kamma), because absolute sameness and otherness are excluded here" (Vis, XVII 164ff). In Mil. it is said: "Now, Venerable Nágasena, the one who is reborn, is he the same as the one who has died, or is he another?" "Neither the same, nor another" (na ca so na ca añño). "Give me an example." "What do you think, o King: are you now, as a grown-up person, the same that you had been as a little, young and tender babe? " "No, Venerable Sir. Another person was the little, young and tender babe, but quite a different person am I now as a grown-up man . " . . . "... Is perhaps in the first watch of the night one lamp burning, another one in the middle watch, and again another one in the last watch?" "No, Venerable Sir. The light during the whole night depends on one and the same lamp.'' "Just so, o King, is the chain of phenomena linked together. One phenomenon arises, another vanishes, yet all are linked together, one after the other, without interruption. In this way one reaches the final state of consciousnes neither as the same person. nor as another person.'' According to the nature of their rebirth consciousness, beings divide into the following 3 groups: 1. ahetu-patisandhika: a 'being reborn without rootconditions', is a being whose consciousness at the moment of rebirth was not accompanied by any of the 3 noble rootconditions, viz. greedlessness, hatelessness, undeludedness (s. múla), i.e. selflessness, kindness, intelligence. Such beings are found in the 4 lower worlds (apáya, q.v.), in which case the function of rebirth is exercised by the class of consciousness listed in Tab. I as No. 56. But if such beings are born in the sensuous sphere as humans, they will be crippled, blind, deaf, mentally deficient, etc. (Rebirth-consciousness = Tab. I, No. 41) 2. dvihetu (or duhetu)-patisandhika: a 'being reborn with only 2 (noble) root-conditions', i.e. greedlessness and hatelessness. (Rebirth-consciousness = Tab. I, Nos. 44, 45, 48 or 49.) 3. tihetu-patisandhika: a 'being reborn with 3 (noble) rootconditions'. Such a being can be found only among men. (Rebirth-consciousness = Tab. 1, Nos. 42, 43, 46, or 47) and higher heavenly beings. On these 3 types of rebirth, See Atthasálini Tr. 11, 354 - 379. (App.: patisandhika). In the suttas, the terms for rebirth are chiefly punabbhava (q.v.), 'renewed existence', and abhinibbatti 'arising'; or both combined as punabbhavábhinibbatti. - (App.: patisandhi). Literature Vis.M. XVII, 133f, 164f, 189f, 289f; Vis.M. XIX, 22f. - Karma and Rebirth, by Nyanatiloka Thera (WHEEL 9). - The Case for Rebirth, by Francis Story (WHEEL 12/13). - Survival and Karma in Buddhist Perspective, by K. N. Jayatilleke (WHEEL 141/143). - Rebirth Explained, by V. F. Gunaratna (WHEEL 167/169). ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 1:01 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhism message > Hi Jan, > > I'm sure Mr. Wash-til will reincarnate but you won't know who he is. So > it's a good idea to be kind to everyone. > > I'm 56 years old and live in the middle of the US, Boulder Colorado. It > is very cold and wintery here right now. About 16 inches of snow on the > ground and more expected tomorrow. Brrrr > > Larry > > > 16643 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 10:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Should the Garden be left to Grow? Tom Hi, and welcome to the list from me. Good to see you here. Sorry to be so slow in coming in on your thread (if you haven't noticed already, I usually run a long way behind with my posting). I think what prompted your original post was the general issue of consideration for other beings/creatures, rather than taking life in particular. This is a theme that has interested me a lot over the years. In a sense, it seems as though much of our life is lived 'selfishly', i.e. for our own benefit and without much regard to the concerns of others. This becomes particularly apparent in certain instances such as the one you gave about sweeping away spider webs, with possible loss of life. I would just like to add 1 or 2 random thoughts to the many excellent comments already posted. As far as selfish motives are concerned, these are an inherent aspect of our lives. Like it or not, the intrinsic nature of us all is 'unwholesome' and tending to become more so, and this is something we have to come to terms with before there can be any progress in the other direction. Consequently, deciding to refrain from doing any act that was motivated by self-interest, would simply mean we'd end up doing nothing (and even then it's unlikely there'd be any less 'selfishness' than if we had just gone on with our lives normally). However, at moments when there is true concern for the welfare of others ('wholesome' moments), this will be reflected in the act being done at that time (including sweeping away spider webs). The difference in terms of outward appearance/immediate results may not be readily apparent, but the 'quality' of the act will be different. There is another aspect to this that's also worth bearing in mind. Even if we studiously avoided doing any act that seemed likely to bring suffering to another, this would not necessarily mean that the quality of the (non-)act was any more wholesome/less unwholesome than if we had done the act (indeed, it could be less wholesome). Actually, even if a person was completely freed of selfish tendencies, his/her acts would still impact adversely on others. It is an inherent feature of life in this existence that this should be so. Merely by walking down the street, we probably bring about the demise of countless (mostly unseen) creatures. Think of all the creatures whose lives have been lost in the interests of getting the salad into our sandwich/vegetables into our curry! What I am trying to say is that our conduct will be 'purer', less harmful to others, if there is more of the wholesome qualities such as consideration for the welfare of others (i.e., it is the wholesome mental states that, if developed, will lead to improvement in the quality of our conduct, not the other way around). Finally, a couple of brief observations on the topics of taking life and its consequences, that have been discussed in this thread. First, the precept against taking life applies as much to the life of an ant as it does to the life of a person. At the same time, however, it is made clear it that this is a rule of training rather than an 'absolute rule', and this reflects the fact that it is not something we should expect of be perfect at. Second, we need to understand that there is a qualitative difference between doing something with the intention of causing the death of a sentient being, and doing something when that intention is absent but there is the knowledge that what we are doing is going to result in the death of sentient beings. Life is a lot easier if we don't confuse 1 with the other (this of course is not to say that while one is 'bad' the other is 'OK'). So while there are certain kinds of conduct (the precepts) that we are strongly urged to avoid as far as possible in all circumstances, we need to be clear about exactly what these kinds of conduct are and how they are distinguished from look-alike acts that are much less severe in their moral impact. Jon --- proctermail wrote: > Hi Christine and group, > > Thanks for your comments - you have elaborated the question well > and > given me more to think about. Your problem of ants is similar to > another I have - slugs. It is very wet here and even my carpet gets > > wet when it rains so slugs are encouraged to come inside. I agree > that prevention in is probably an acceptable way forward - I > removed > as many slugs as I could find and then placed salt in the likely > places where they got in - hopefully I have discouraged them not > killed them and have had less of a problem since. There is prob > some > negative kamma invilved but it could be worse - perhaps leave a > bowl > of water outside for the ants (though this may encourage!). > > I guess I realise that the garden has to be cut back but i once > killed a frog inadvertantly whilst strimming. > > It is also interesting what you say about sentient beings as we > think > of plants as living and dying and returning to the earth to be > reborn > in another format but I guess thats a whole different discussion > topic! > > tp 16644 From: James Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 11:27pm Subject: Re: Buddhism message Hi Star Kid! (AKA Jan): Thanks for writing. I really liked your letter. I'm impressed that you know so many languages for being so young! You must be really smart and study really hard. You are one STAR KID alright! :-) I am also glad that you are learning about Buddhism. It is a very happy way to live and view life :-). You sound like a very nice girl and I wish you well in your religion and language studies. I am sorry to hear about the death of your teacher. I am also sorry to hear that it upset you. Yes, Mr. Wash-till will be reborn and you may just meet him again one day. How will you know it is him when you do? Well, you won't know for sure but there are some things you can look for: As he was kind, so he will be reborn as kind. As he was generous, so he will be reborn as generous. As he was wise, so he will be reborn as wise. As he taught others, so he will be reborn to teach others. As he was loved, so he will be reborn to be loved. Jan, whatever good things he was before he died, he will be those things again when he is reborn. Just like they say, "You are what you eat", it is also true that "You are what you do and think." So, Mr. Wash-till, since he was someone who people loved and cared about (like you did), will be reborn as someone who people love and care about again. He will be just fine and very happy. Please don't be too sad for him. Think good thoughts and his new, happy life. I liked your poem also. Let me give you this little poem written by Shel Silverstein to make you smile, since you may be still sad about your teacher; and to remind you again about rebirth/reincarnation. It is also about a boy who became exactly what he thought about and did all the time. I hope you aren't like this boy…but I am sure you aren't :-). Love, James Jimmy Jet and His TV Set I'll tell you the story of Jimmy Jet - And you know what I tell you is true. He loved to watch his TV set Almost as much as you. He watched all day, he watched all night Till he grew pale and lean, From "The Early Show" to "The Late Late Show" And all the shows between. He watched till his eyes were frozen wide, And his bottom grew into his chair. And his chin turned into a tuning dial, And antennae grew out of his hair. And his brains turned into TV tubes, And his face to a TV screen. And two knobs saying "vert" and "horiz." Grew where his ears had been. And he grew a plug that looked like a tail So we plugged in little Jim. And now instead of him watching TV, We all sit around and watch him. --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Star Kid wrote: > passing on any replies. Sarah> > ****************************************************** > > Hi everyone, > > My name is Jan Chearavanont and I am 11 years old.I > live in Hong Kong but my dad is Thai and my mom is > Korean. My first languge is > English and Thai and my second languge is Chinese but > im not so good at speaking or writing in > chinese. Unfotunatly I dont speak Korean so I might > learn that is the future. > > Last year I was learning about different types of > religons such as Buddhism and so Mrs Abbott,my english > tutor said that mabye I can write a small message to > everyone who is intrested in the descussion group. > > Recently one of my teachers past away from the Bali > Bomb , his name was Mr Wash-till...i was quite upset > about it. > > I always belived in recarnation and so i always think > that Mr. Wash-till would recarnate and i might even > get to see him in his future life. > > I hope to hear from you. > Jan > > De Liver > > De Letter > > De Sooner > > De Better > > De Later > > De Letter > > De Madder > > I Getter > > Thx > ------------------------------------------------------ > 16645 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Nov 3, 2002 0:44am Subject: request to members Dear Group, I wonder if some of our members who are not yet in our photo album might consider adding their faces to the collection? We are all on view there - All are welcome and wanted "whatsoever pulsates with the breath of life, the frail or strong, without exception - the long, the large, the medium-sized, the short the thin or 'the comparatively well fed'." And even an occasional one with flat hair ... Please consider ... Updates are welcome if you feel you've improved over time - as all good buddhists should. :) http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/lst metta, Christine 16646 From: ven.yanatharo.bikkhu Date: Sun Nov 3, 2002 0:59am Subject: RE: [dsg] request to members Dear Christina, I am the one in monks robes.Ven. Yanatharo -----Mensaje original----- De: christine_forsyth [mailto:cforsyth@v...] Enviado el: Domingo, Noviembre 03, 2002 07:44 p.m. Para: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Asunto: [dsg] request to members Dear Group, I wonder if some of our members who are not yet in our photo album might consider adding their faces to the collection? We are all on view there - All are welcome and wanted "whatsoever pulsates with the breath of life, the frail or strong, without exception - the long, the large, the medium-sized, the short the thin or 'the comparatively well fed'." And even an occasional one with flat hair ... Please consider ... Updates are welcome if you feel you've improved over time - as all good buddhists should. :) http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/lst metta, Christine 16647 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Nov 3, 2002 1:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] request to members Ven. Dr. Bhikkhu Yanatharo, Sir, I think it would be a lovely idea if all the Venerables on the list put their photos in the Album. (Ven. Kumara is in the Files section of Dhamma-List.) I'm not sure how many Bhikkhus there are on dsg, as Members listing is not public - but Ven. Dr. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo and Ven. Dr. Bhikkhu Yanatharo spring to mind. :) metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "ven.yanatharo.bikkhu" wrote: > Dear Christina, I am the one in monks robes.Ven. Yanatharo > > -----Mensaje original----- > De: christine_forsyth [mailto:cforsyth@v...] > Enviado el: Domingo, Noviembre 03, 2002 07:44 p.m. > Para: dhammastudygroup@y... > Asunto: [dsg] request to members > > > Dear Group, > > I wonder if some of our members who are not yet in our photo album > might consider adding their faces to the collection? We are all on > view there - All are welcome and wanted "whatsoever pulsates with > the breath of life, the frail or strong, without exception - the > long, the large, the medium-sized, the short the thin or 'the > comparatively well fed'." And even an occasional one with flat > hair ... > > Please consider ... Updates are welcome if you feel you've improved > over time - as all good buddhists should. :) > > http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/lst > > metta, > Christine 16648 From: antony272b2 Date: Sun Nov 3, 2002 2:48am Subject: Re: Buddha's gradual instruction Hi Christine, Robert K and all, My attempt to focus on mundane happiness instead of sankhara dukkha was incomplete. Thanks for sharing this journey with me. with respect / Antony. 16649 From: Sarah Date: Sun Nov 3, 2002 2:56am Subject: Star Kids Hi Larry, Chris, James & All, Jon & I both really liked your replies to Jan - kind, very helpful and funny (esp. James' poem;-)) I won't see her til next Sat, but will f/w them and any further ones in the meantime. I'll also print them out to use in class. She didn't put it in her message, but she told me she'd been at camp with her teacher during most the week, returned with him on Friday afternoon. The next day he flew to Bali and that evening the bomb went off. Actually, she wanted to join DSG using her own email account, but after chatting about it, we decided to open the starkidsclub@y... for any kids to send messages to first, so as to avoid their own email addresses being shown (as a precaution and in case of parental concerns). This way we can also just check the messages are suitable before f/w to the list, but don't intend to edit in anyway and they'll be treated just like regular members in any other respects. So, if any of you have kids, grandkids, students, friends' kids or street kids who you can encourage to send Buddhist or 'life' questions to our helpful panel (Larry, Chris & James so far), then it's a condition for us all to learn more about teaching Buddhism to kids too. I'm sure the kids'll be teaching us plenty too - like Jan's sign-off;-) Chris, I'll also try to help Jan post a photo (actually that's a joke, b.c she and all my other students are far more internet savvy than I am - maybe she can help me to do this). Many thanks Sarah p.s We live in Star Street, so all kids who come here are Star Kids;-) ======================================================================= 16650 From: ajahn_paul Date: Sun Nov 3, 2002 3:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] request to members Hi Chris, i'd uploaded mine! ^^ Paul 16651 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Nov 3, 2002 3:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] request to members Thanks Paul - Lovely to see your friendly face! - I find that it does make a difference when writing to people if you can 'visualise' them. Somehow you feel you know them better. :) metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "ajahn_paul" wrote: > Hi Chris, > > i'd uploaded mine! ^^ > > Paul 16652 From: Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 11:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhism message Dear Jan - There isn't much anyone can add to the loving messages you have received from folks on this list. Please do know we do feel love for you even though we don't know you first hand. We can easily understand that what has happened has surprised you and made you unhappy. It isn't easy to lose somebody we care about. I don't believe that when we die we are gone for good. We just have new experiences, and we probably even meet people we knew and loved before. I am sure that the good things we do now lead to good things for the furure, and that after all is said and done, there really isn't anything we need to be afraid of. We are safe. Really. With much love, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16653 From: rahula_80 Date: Sun Nov 3, 2002 5:39am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sabbe dhammaa anattaa Hi Howard, You wrote: > This post confuses me. I don't recall giving any reference. < I apologise. The confusion is really my error. > (I don't know why you mention my name.) Also, when I try to access your url, I get a msg saying that there is no msg 82804.< First, there is no message of 82804. Therefore, it is my error. Secondly, I was not mentioning your name. I was quoting from the url Sarah gave. The url is: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/8280 I am not sure whether Howard in the message is you or not as I have not joing at that time. I am sorry for all these. With apology, Rahula 16654 From: Date: Sun Nov 3, 2002 0:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sabbe dhammaa anattaa Hi, Rahula - Ahhh. I see. No apology needed. And, yes, I was the "Howard" Anders quoted. With metta, Howard In a message dated 11/3/02 8:39:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, rahula_80@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > You wrote: > > >This post confuses me. I don't recall giving any reference. < > > I apologise. The confusion is really my error. > > >(I don't know why you mention my name.) Also, when I try to access > your url, I get a msg saying that there is no msg 82804.< > > First, there is no message of 82804. Therefore, it is my error. > Secondly, I was not mentioning your name. I was quoting from the url > Sarah gave. The url is: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/8280 > > I am not sure whether Howard in the message is you or not as I have > not joing at that time. I am sorry for all these. > > With apology, > Rahula > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16655 From: rahula_80 Date: Sun Nov 3, 2002 5:54am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sabbe dhammaa anattaa Hi, I would like to check whether Samyutta Nikaya I 4. contains the phrase "sabbe dhammaa aniccaa". I found this it is Accentisutta.m and it does not contain the phrase. I am using http://www.tipitaka.org/tipitaka/booklistframe2.html So, I was thinking if someone has other other Tipitaka text to verify it. The same thing goes for Samyutta Nikaya III 132 quoted by PTS Dictionary as containing the phrase. But I check with that url but found that it is Channa Sutta. And the phrase according to that website is " Sabbe sa"nkhaaraa aniccaa; sabbe dhammaa anattaa"ti" Rahula 16656 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 3, 2002 6:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] third insight knowledge Nina --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > op 26-10-2002 14:29 schreef Jonothan Abbott op > Jon: > I, too, find this interesting. The key seems to be that it is associated > with panna that is weak. My guess is that what is being referred to here > is the fact that, even when there is the direct experience of a dhamma, if > the general level of awareness is weak (as we know it in fact is), there > is still the idea of a person at such moments. <> As we all know, there appear to be several different phenomena (dhammas) continuously present at any one time (and we are told that the reason for this is the rapidity with which these phenomena arise and fall away). But awareness if it arises will have only one of those dhammas as its object. So even though there will be no idea of person in relation to that particular dhamma, it seems to me that there could still be the idea of person in connection with any of the other dhammas arising at the same time, since these would in fact be different mind-moments. > Jon: > In terms of paramattha dhammas, this I suppose means that there are > moments of awareness (kusala) and moments of 'ordinary' (akusala) > perception of the world arising alternately, with the latter > predominating. > > This may be why it is said that when awareness is weak it can be difficult > to see it for what it is, since it may manifest as moments of just a > glimmer of direct experience of a dhamma, hardly distinguishable from > moments when awareness is totally absent. <> I agree that at moments with sati there would be no thought of a person, but I'm not so sure that the difference between moment with sati and moment without must always be so clear. Even though there have been moments of strong insight, this doesn't mean all subsequent moments of insight/awarenes will be so strong and clear. There are still accumulations of all the usual defilements, and so there may still be doubt about the true nature of any moment, including a moment of (weak) awareness or understanding. Just my thoughts. Jon 16657 From: ajahn_paul Date: Sun Nov 3, 2002 6:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] request to members Totally agree with u! ^_~ --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Thanks Paul - Lovely to see your friendly face! - I find that it does > make a difference when writing to people if you can 'visualise' them. > Somehow you feel you know them better. :) > metta, > Chris > 16658 From: abhidhammika Date: Sun Nov 3, 2002 6:33am Subject: Re: request to members: To Sarah And Christine Dear Sarah and Christine I do not forget Sarah's e-mail regarding an electronic image of mine for DSG photo files. Now, Christine's reminder. I agree with you, Christine, that it is good to be able to visualize the people we communicate with. The reason I still haven't sent my electronic image to DSG photo files is a technical one. I do not have a digital camera. However, for those who would like to visualize how I would look, the following are some hints. I have fair skin color for an Asian, thick lips, medium height, long hair. If you have watched Samurai movies, Toshiro Mifune could remind you of my face. Visualize very hairy Mifune, though! But, smiley and sweet mountain man. :) As soon as technical problems are solved, I would send an electronic image of mine to DSG photo files. For now, visualization of (hairy) Toshiro Mifune in his Samurai movies would do the trick. Happy visualization! With kind regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: Dear Group, I wonder if some of our members who are not yet in our photo album might consider adding their faces to the collection? We are all on view there - All are welcome and wanted "whatsoever pulsates with the breath of life, the frail or strong, without exception - the long, the large, the medium-sized, the short the thin or 'the comparatively well fed'." And even an occasional one with flat hair ... Please consider ... Updates are welcome if you feel you've improved over time - as all good buddhists should. :) http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/lst metta, Christine 16659 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 3, 2002 7:13am Subject: Perfections, Ch 6, Energy, no. 13 Perfections, Ch 6, Energy, no. 13 The Buddha, after he had finished the discourse, spoke the following words: ³Monk, long ago you followed the instruction, but why do you not now strive?² The Buddha declared the Truths and at the conclusion that monk was established in the fruition of streamwinning. The Buddha identified the persons in that former life: ³That monk was prince Samvara who became the King at that time, Såriputta was prince Uposatha, the Elders and secondary Elders were the other princes, the buddhist followers were their followers, and I myself was the courtier who advised the King.² The Buddha¹s followers in the past were the buddhist assembly at the time of the Buddha Gotama. We can see that it is not difficult for a result to materialize, but that the development of the right conditions leading to such a result is difficult. If at this moment there is not yet the cause that can bring its appropriate result, the result cannot arise, no matter how much one tries to hasten its arising. We should continue to apply energy with the development of understanding and we should be truthful with regard to it: we should find out whether we know the characteristics of realities that are appearing right now or not yet. This kind of understanding is not intellectual understanding which stems from listening, but it is of the level of satipatthåna. Satipatthåna is developed when sampajañña (paññå) arises together with sati and knows the characteristics of realities appearing at this moment as they are. Paññå develops gradually, time and again, so that one day the four noble Truths can be penetrated. When the time for enlightenment has come, this result is in accordance with the cause, and it will arise without difficulty. However, we should continue to be patient and to have energy and endeavour to develop understanding. We read in ³Ardent Energy² (Gradual Sayings, Ch V, § 49) that the Buddha said: Monks, on three occasions ardent energy is to be exerted. What three? To prevent the arising of evil, unprofitable states not yet arisen; to cause the arising of good, profitable states not yet arisen; to endure the bodily feelings that have arisen, feelings which are painful, sharp, bitter, acute, distressing and unwelcome, which drain the life away. These are the three occasions... Now, when a monk exerts himself on these three occasions, he is called ³strenuous, wise and mindful so that he makes an end of dukkha². Even a very short text can remind us of the endeavour we should make on three occasions, so that patience and endurance can further develop. ******* End of chapter. The next one, on patience, will be presented after my stay in Thailand, after medio Dec. Yes Christine and Azita, it is a work in progress. After a long time, when finished, it will be put on Web. Thanks for your kind words. Nina. 16660 From: Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Sun Nov 3, 2002 8:29am Subject: Re: Reincarnation and connections Dear Jan, Am so glad that you have written in to the Dhamma Study Group. Somehow, I feel connected to you, because Ms. Abbott is also a dear friend of mine and because one of your relatives, Marissa Chearavanont, was my student at ISB (International School Bangkok) many years ago. Her mother is American, her father is, of course, Thai, and she is still working in Paris, I think. Should you have her contact information, please tell her Mrs. Yugala says hello. And speaking of connections, as you rightly surmised, we are all interconnected through a myriad of lifetimes; that it is not inconceivable that everyone we have ever met in any one lifetime, we probably have met before, in countless other lifetimes and in numerous situations and relationships. You have probably known Mr. Wash-till (sp?) in many previous lives, for this is how all of us have built up our attachments to the various people we know and love, and who have touched our lives, lifetime after lifetime. Thus, it is perfectly natural that when someone we have been attached to is taken from us in death, it brings about a deep sense of sadness and loss. But the beauty of Buddhism is that it teaches us to really understand and see such losses clearly. When we understand what is really going on, we can see such events in their true nature, and thus we can learn to detach from such losses and the pain that they bring. But this kind of detachment does not mean ignoring the loss or trying to convince ourselves that it doesn't affect us, or denying it. It means accepting the loss with a sense of inner peace, and deeply understanding what is meant when the Buddha taught that all reality has 3 characteristics. All reality is (1) impermanent, it does not last; (2) that all reality is dukkha, a Pali word meaning unsatisfactory ("things" are not the way "we" want them to be, thereby making us unhappy about them); and the hardest to understand, (3) that all reality is not a self, a being, an "I". However, this last teaching, the most important in Buddhism, is also the hardest to understand, and therefore I will leave it for a later time. But, try and think about the connections between these 3 characteristics of reality and the myriad of things and persons to which you are attached in this lifetime. How does one then develop the depth of understanding in order to detach from persons and things we are attached to? How does Buddhism teach us to go about developing that understanding? These are the central questions of Buddhism that usually take many lifetimes to answer and to understand. You are indeed fortunate to have the opportunity to know Ms. Abbott, for she has a wonderful understanding of these questions and can begin to explain them to you. And yes, you have known Ms. Abbott in many previous lifetimes and it is no accident that you have the good fortune to know her again in this lifetime. Should you wish to write to me, to ask questions, please feel free to do so at the contact information below, or through the Dhamma Study Group. with metta, Mom B. Yugala _______________________ Mom Bongkojpriya Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 e-mail: beyugala@k... ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 8:04 PM Subject: [dsg] Digest Number 1124 > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 12:36:18 +0800 (CST) > From: Star Kid > Subject: Buddhism message > > passing on any replies. Sarah> > ****************************************************** > > Hi everyone, > > My name is Jan Chearavanont and I am 11 years old.I > live in Hong Kong but my dad is Thai and my mom is > Korean. My first languge is > English and Thai and my second languge is Chinese but > im not so good at speaking or writing in > chinese. Unfotunatly I dont speak Korean so I might > learn that is the future. > > Last year I was learning about different types of > religons such as Buddhism and so Mrs Abbott,my english > tutor said that mabye I can write a small message to > everyone who is intrested in the descussion group. > > Recently one of my teachers past away from the Bali > Bomb , his name was Mr Wash-till...i was quite upset > about it. > > I always belived in recarnation and so i always think > that Mr. Wash-till would recarnate and i might even > get to see him in his future life. > > I hope to hear from you. > Jan > > De Liver > > De Letter > > De Sooner > > De Better > > De Later > > De Letter > > De Madder > > I Getter > > Thx > 16661 From: James Date: Sun Nov 3, 2002 9:00am Subject: Re: request to members Christine, Thanks for the citation information. Now I know it isn't just me! I have also uploaded a recent picture of myself (July, 2002). It was taken at my temple during a personal meditation retreat (thus I am in all white). Little girl, whose mother cooked for the monks, liked to play with me while the monks ate. This is after the monk's one meal and we are receiving the blessings. Metta, James --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, > > I wonder if some of our members who are not yet in our photo album > might consider adding their faces to the collection? We are all on > view there - All are welcome and wanted "whatsoever pulsates with > the breath of life, the frail or strong, without exception - the > long, the large, the medium-sized, the short the thin or 'the > comparatively well fed'." And even an occasional one with flat > hair ... > > Please consider ... Updates are welcome if you feel you've improved > over time - as all good buddhists should. :) > > http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/lst > > metta, > Christine 16662 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Nov 3, 2002 11:34am Subject: Re: request to members: Suan Hi Suan, Now Suan, we are slowly backing you into a corner! :) You don't have to have a digital camera ... You don't even have to have the negative of a favourite photo. All you need is either the print or a negative. Go to a place that you usually put your film in for processing. Ask them to prepare the chosen photo for emailing. They will put it on a disk. Some people get all their photos developed onto a disk - some get them put onto a CD - but I take too many of 'backs of heads' 'inside of handbag' type photos to justify the small extra cost. Insert disk in computer at home, then either send an ordinary email to one of us at home with selected photo/s as the attachment - or fiddle about yourself and upload it to the Photos section. The person uploading the photo is the only one who can 'delete' it when they wish. (which is easy to do at any time.) This offer applies to anyone less computer literate than I(!?) Anyone knowing of a simpler way, your instruction/correction would be welcome. And, by the way, it is perfectly O.K. for anyone NOT to want their photo in the album - no need for people to feel any pressure - I simply remind members every so often that we'd all love to see them, and then drop the matter (for a while:))... .... not another word ... Well, maybe, just a few - You will notice I haven't mentioned people like Antony, Rahula, WL, KKT, Stephen, Tom, Sarah F, Peter and anyone else who has momentarily slipped my mind. :) metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "abhidhammika" wrote: > > > Dear Sarah and Christine > > I do not forget Sarah's e-mail regarding an electronic image of mine > for DSG photo files. > > Now, Christine's reminder. > > I agree with you, Christine, that it is good to be able to visualize > the people we communicate with. > > The reason I still haven't sent my electronic image to DSG photo > files is a technical one. I do not have a digital camera. > > However, for those who would like to visualize how I would look, the > following are some hints. > > I have fair skin color for an Asian, thick lips, medium height, long > hair. > > If you have watched Samurai movies, Toshiro Mifune could remind you > of my face. Visualize very hairy Mifune, though! But, smiley and > sweet mountain man. :) > > As soon as technical problems are solved, I would send an electronic > image of mine to DSG photo files. > > For now, visualization of (hairy) Toshiro Mifune in his Samurai > movies would do the trick. > > Happy visualization! > > With kind regards, > > Suan > > > http://www.bodhiology.org > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > > > > > Dear Group, > > I wonder if some of our members who are not yet in our photo album > might consider adding their faces to the collection? We are all on > view there - All are welcome and wanted "whatsoever pulsates with > the breath of life, the frail or strong, without exception - the > long, the large, the medium-sized, the short the thin or 'the > comparatively well fed'." And even an occasional one with flat > hair ... > > Please consider ... Updates are welcome if you feel you've improved > over time - as all good buddhists should. :) > > http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/lst > > metta, > Christine 16663 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Nov 3, 2002 11:37am Subject: Re: request to members Great photo James - cute little girl and angelic looking James! The camera doesn't lie! :):) metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "James" wrote: > Christine, > Thanks for the citation information. Now I know it isn't just me! > > I have also uploaded a recent picture of myself (July, 2002). It > was taken at my temple during a personal meditation retreat (thus I > am in all white). Little girl, whose mother cooked for the monks, > liked to play with me while the monks ate. This is after the monk's > one meal and we are receiving the blessings. > > Metta, James 16664 From: Date: Sun Nov 3, 2002 0:13pm Subject: commentary break Dear Nina and all, I don't want anyone to miss out on the commentary while they are visiting Thailand, so when should we take a break? Larry 16665 From: James Date: Sun Nov 3, 2002 0:29pm Subject: Re: request to members Hi Christine, *Blush, Blush*. Thank you. I posted that photo because it is Buddhist themed. Hmmm...I never thought of myself as looking angelic! Thank goodness my horns and forked tail don't show up in photographs! hehehe...just kidding. I think the little girl, Jennifer, looks much more angelic than me. Isn't she a doll?!! (Her mom gave me permission to put the photo on the Internet, btw. Now if her mother isn't scared, I don't see why anyone in this group should be scared of posting a photo. Buddhists are predominately pacifists; and life is too short to live in fear.). This was day 9 of a 10-day, self-guided, meditation retreat...I think I look rode hard and put away wet! :-) I hope the other members post photos also. Your instructions were impecible. Metta, James --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Great photo James - cute little girl and angelic looking James! The > camera doesn't lie! :):) > > metta, > Christine > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "James" wrote: > > Christine, > > Thanks for the citation information. Now I know it isn't just me! > > > > I have also uploaded a recent picture of myself (July, 2002). It > > was taken at my temple during a personal meditation retreat (thus I > > am in all white). Little girl, whose mother cooked for the monks, > > liked to play with me while the monks ate. This is after the > monk's > > one meal and we are receiving the blessings. > > > > Metta, James 16666 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Nov 3, 2002 1:20pm Subject: Fear and Courage Hi James, I'm leaving for work in a moment - it's after 7.00 a.m. Monday morning in Brisbane right now. All of us in the Asia-Pacific Region will be slaving away while you lucky ones in North America are having a lazy Sunday!! I'd to talk a bit about the 'Fear' subject you mentioned. I am not a very brave person and brought this up in September from a different perspective - the other side of the coin, which is 'courage'. Would you have time to have a look at my original letter, and the replies listed at the foot of the post, and see if you would care to continue discussing any part of the thread? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15529 metta, Christine 16667 From: Date: Sun Nov 3, 2002 4:55pm Subject: Way 20, Comm. "The Way of Mindfulness"by Soma Thera http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html Continuing the commentary on: "What are the four? Here, Bhikkhus a bhikkhu lives contemplating the body in the body..." Katame cattaro = "What are the four?" This is a question indicating the desire to expound the teaching. Idha = "Here." In this Dispensation. Bhikkhave = "Bhikkhus". This is a term for addressing persons who accept the teaching. Bhikkhu[15] is a term to indicate a person who earnestly endeavors to accomplish the practice of the teaching. Others, gods and men, too, certainly strive earnestly to accomplish the practice of the teaching, but because of the excellence of the bhikkhu-state by way of practice, the Master said: "Bhikkhu." For amongst those who accept the teaching of the Buddha, the bhikkhu is the highest owing to fitness for receiving manifold instruction. Further, when that highest kind of person, the bhikkhu, is reckoned, the rest too are reckoned, as in regard to a royal procession and the like, when the king is reckoned, by the reckoning of the king, the retinue is reckoned. Also the word "bhikkhu" was used by the Buddha to point out the bhikkhu-state through practice of the teaching in this way: "He who practices this practice of the Arousing of Mindfulness is called a bhikkhu." He who follows the teaching, be he a shining one [deva] or a human, is indeed called a bhikkhu. Accordingly it is said: "Well-dressed one may be, but if one is calm, Tamed, humble, pure, a man who does no harm To aught that lives, that one's a brahman true. An ascetic and mendicant too."[16] Kaye = "In the body." In the corporeal group. The group of big and small corporeal constituents, namely, things like hair of the head, hair of the body, nails, and teeth, in the sense of a collection [samuhatthena] similar to a herd of elephants, a concourse of chariots according to grammatical method [sadda nayena]. From here, the explanation is by way of word-analysis [nirutti nayena]. And as in the sense of a collection, so also in the sense of the focus of what is filthy and therefore of what is disgusting is it "kaya." For the body [kaya] is the birthplace [aya] of the disgusting, the exceedingly repellent. The birthplace [aya] is the place of origin [uppattidesa]. Since these originate from that place [ayanti tato] it is the place of origin [ayo]. What originates? The repulsive things like hair of the head. Therefore, the body is the place of origin of disgusting or contemptible things [kucchitanam ayoti kayo]. 15. An almsman, a mendicant, monk, religious, or recluse. In the Buddhadhamma it indicates generally any person who accepts and follows earnestly the teaching; but technically it refers to one who has received the higher ordination in the Holy Life. 16. Dhammapada verse 142. 16668 From: James Date: Sun Nov 3, 2002 7:43pm Subject: Re: Fear and Courage --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hi James, > > I'm leaving for work in a moment - it's after 7.00 a.m. Monday > morning in Brisbane right now. All of us in the Asia-Pacific Region > will be slaving away while you lucky ones in North America are having > a lazy Sunday!! > > I'd to talk a bit about the 'Fear' subject you mentioned. I am not a > very brave person and brought this up in September from a different > perspective - the other side of the coin, which is 'courage'. Would > you have time to have a look at my original letter, and the replies > listed at the foot of the post, and see if you would care to continue > discussing any part of the thread? > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15529 > > metta, > Christine Christine, I read your post about courage, and the replies, and I think I have a unique perspective to add. Allow me to give you my input. The post of mine you were referring to was examining `fear' and in this recent post you suggest that courage is the opposite of fear, the `other side of the coin'. I would not completely agree with that. I see the opposite of fear being `equanimity'; I believe the opposite of courage is `doubt'. You were wondering where courage occurred in the teachings of the Buddha, your post was titled, "Searching for `Courage' in the teachings." Now, I really ask this lighthearted and loving, have you heard the saying about, "One who can't see the `forest' through the `trees'"? I believe this is the case here. You aren't going to find much mention of `Courage' in the teachings because ALL of the teachings are about courage. Buddhism = Courage. Those who are not brave are not cut out to be Buddhist. The Buddha's entire life is a testament to courage. And he had this courage, as he explained, because he had conquered his doubt. Courage is not a Buddhist quality for the individual to develop, and isn't explained thus in Buddhist scripture, because `courage' is a quality that is `other' and not `self'. In other words, other people will see a brave person as `courageous', but that `courageous' person typically won't see himself as anything other than ordinary and plain. If a person views him/herself as `courageous', than it is more than likely vanity and not courage. The courageous person simply knows that he/she has no doubt about the right course of action to take. He or she does it, in the face of incredible odds, and then other people label that act as courageous. Sure sounds like the Buddha and all those who choose to follow his teachings, though his teachings run contrary to the mores of predominate society. Actually, paradoxically, the scriptures do talk about courage quite frequently; it just isn't called courage, it is called the `Elimination of Doubt', which is one of the five hindrances to the eightfold path and enlightenment (the other four being: Sensual Desire, Ill-will, Sloth/Torpor, Restlessness/Remorse). I don't want to quote numerous suttas about this subject, but allow me to quote one of my favorite passages about doubt: "If there is a pot of water which is turbid, stirred up and muddy, and this pot is put into a dark place, then a man with a normal faculty of sight could not properly recognize and see the image of his own face. In the same way, when one's mind is possessed by doubt, overpowered by doubt, then one cannot properly see the escape from doubt which has arisen; then one does not properly understand one's own welfare, nor that of another, nor that of both; and also texts memorized a long time ago do not come into one's mind, not to speak of those not memorized." SN 46:55 If the Buddha had not conquered his doubt early on, there would not be any such thing called `Buddhism'. Most people who would like to become monks, like to meditate more often, like to be better people, like to call him/herselves Buddhist, like to lead an ethical life, like to be more generous, etc., etc., etc., but don't do this, usually don't do these things because of doubt. Doubt in ourselves and The Triple Gem is what we all must conquer if we are to achieve true peace. (A good article on the Five Hindrances and how they can be conquered is available here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel026.html#doubt) Allow me to end with one of my favorite Shakespearean lines related to this subject, from 'The Tragedy of Macbeth': MACBETH. If we should fail? LADY MACBETH. We fail! But screw your courage to the sticking-place, And we'll not fail. (Wasn't for a good purpose in this case, but the same idea). Metta, James 16669 From: Sarah Date: Sun Nov 3, 2002 10:35pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation" Hi James & Howard, James, I’m appreciating your contributions very much. Here is one more for this popular thread;-) --- James wrote: > I am not > > > sure if I agree with your perspective; after all, would it matter > to > > > those being referred to as 'drooling idiots' if a Buddha said it > or > > > not? Probably not, after all, they are drooling idiots! > hehehe... ..... On the contrary, I think that we ‘drooling idiots’ (i.e all those of us ‘unpurified’) are likely to be not only overwhelmed by fear and dread whilst seculded in the ‘remote jungle-thicket’, but also very likely to take offence if we were called such by another drooling idiot (B.Bodhi translates ‘devoid of wisdom, drivellers’ btw). ..... > > Howard: > > Certainly. As far as bhikkhus are concerned, it is obviously > true that > > becoming a bhikkhu does not automatically make one "holy". Not all > bhikkhus > > are admirable, but all should be accorded respect out of respect > for the > > position, out of respect for the institution of the sangha. ..... I agree with H’s comments here. When one pays respect to the Sangha - it is respect to those who have followed the Buddha’s teachings and made it possible for us to hear them as represented by the ‘institution of the sangha’. From the latest extract of the Satipatthana Sutta commentary: ***** "Bhikkhave = "Bhikkhus". This is a term for addressing persons who accept the teaching. Bhikkhu[15] is a term to indicate a person who earnestly endeavors to accomplish the practice of the teaching. Others, gods and men, too, certainly strive earnestly to accomplish the practice of the teaching, but because of the excellence of the bhikkhu-state by way of practice, the Master said: "Bhikkhu." For amongst those who accept the teaching of the Buddha, the bhikkhu is the highest owing to fitness for receiving manifold instruction. Further, when that highest kind of person, the bhikkhu, is reckoned, the rest too are reckoned, as in regard to a royal procession and the like, when the king is reckoned, by the reckoning of the king, the retinue is reckoned. Also the word "bhikkhu" was used by the Buddha to point out the bhikkhu-state through practice of the teaching in this way: "He who practices this practice of the Arousing of Mindfulness is called a bhikkhu." He who follows the teaching, be he a shining one [deva] or a human, is indeed called a bhikkhu. Accordingly it is said: "Well-dressed one may be, but if one is calm, Tamed, humble, pure, a man who does no harm To aught that lives, that one's a brahman true. An ascetic and mendicant too."[16] 15. An almsman, a mendicant, monk, religious, or recluse. In the Buddhadhamma it indicates generally any person who accepts and follows earnestly the teaching; but technically it refers to one who has received the higher ordination in the Holy Life. 16. Dhammapada verse 142." ***** > James: Hmmmm...I think I understand your position a bit more clear > now. Not sure if I completely agree; but it is definitely > admirable. Those who follow pure principles are becoming more and > more rare nowadays. However, my thinking is that this position can > lead to a 'slippery slope' of religious corruption. I believe more > in the Buddha's system of 'Checks and Balances'. ..... I think that those ‘who follow pure principles’ have always been rare. It’s a delicate subject, but surely we need to primarily be concerned with the ‘Checks and Balances’ that apply to our own conduct and mental states? Unless we are asked for assistance or guidance, I’m not at all sure it is appropriate to suggest ‘Checks and Balances’ for others, especially not for members of the Sangha, I think. This week, Jon and I will be providing a little medical dana for a visiting monk in Hong Kong. We will be mindful, according to our knowledge of vinaya, of what is suitable and respectful on our behalf. For example, we would make sure any offer of assistance was clear, appropriately made and wouldn’t involve any expense by the monk or anyone else, I’d make sure, as a woman, I wasn’t travelling alone with the monk, we would make arrangements to make sure his meal was definitely finished before mid-day, I’d walk behind him.....and so on. As to how a monk applies the ‘Checks and Balances’ himself and whether he follows strict vinaya and so on, this will depend on other factors, such as his confidence in the Tipitaka and particularly in the Vinaya.These are not my concern/responsibility and will certainly have their own repercussions. ..... >He supported that > the behavior and practice of a monk should determine if he is > affored 'respect' and should be 'worthy of gifts', not his position > in the Sangha. Tough issue, but the future of Buddhism depends on > it. .... I agree with this and we read many accounts of those who lost the respect and support of followers. We all know about the importance and value of the Sangha and the weighty kamma for abuse of the order. This should be a condition for compassion and equanimity on our part, rather than hostility, I think. ---------------------------------------------- James: > As I study the Abihdhamma more and ponder it > more, I am starting to view it as an over-intellectualization of the > Buddha's profound, yet simple, teachings. But I could be biased. > The jury is still not in with me. :-) .... We hear this quite often on DSG;-) I hope that in time you also come to see the Abhidhamma as ‘this moment’....like, dislike, fear, seeing, hearing, respect, boredom, sounds, feelings....all are abhidhamma and not separate from what is taught in the suttanta and vinaya. You may wish to look at some of the articles on Rob K’s websites as well as reading all the Useful Posts;-)): http://www.abhidhamma.org/ http://www.vipassana.info/ James, you’ve written many posts and raised useful issues. I appreciate the shake-up, colour and life you’ve added here. Please take any ‘nit-picking’ anytime from me as well-intended comments or attempts at clarification from just another ‘drooling idiot’;-) Sarah ===== 16670 From: Sarah Date: Sun Nov 3, 2002 11:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: request to members: Suan Hi Christine & all, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hi Suan, > Now Suan, we are slowly backing you into a corner! :) ... You’re doing a great job....”visualization of (hairy) Toshiro mifune in his Samurai movies” is NOT doing the trick;-) > Anyone knowing of a simpler way, your instruction/correction would be > welcome. .... If the taking-the-photo-from-the-nondigital camera-to-the-photo-shop is still a hassle (read yet another excuse), just post the pic to one of the committee below by asking off-list for a snail mail address. We’re set to handle all excuses (lack of a digital camera is a simple one we’re used to. We can even handle the “no attachments -> no possessions ->no photo” one -ask Frank). .... > And, by the way, it is perfectly O.K. for anyone NOT to want their > photo in the album - no need for people to feel any pressure - .... Now don’t go soft, Chris.... .... >I simply remind members every so often that we'd all love to see them, > and then drop the matter (for a while:))... > .... not another word ... > > Well, maybe, just a few.. .... That’s better....(remember there’s the ‘tough and mean’ example to follow here....;-)) ..... Latest Album Committee: Rob Ep: Was ‘Album Keeper’ Now ‘Initial Brain Waver’ Kom: Was ‘Technical Adviser & Tolerator’ Now...........”........................”......... Sarah: Was ‘Interfering BusyBody’ Always.....”...........” Chris: Was ‘P.R. Extraordinaire’ Now ‘Really Helpful Person’ James (co-opted without permission): ‘Sloth Shaker’ & ‘Punchliner’ J:“Now if her mother isn't scared, I don't see why anyone in this group should be scared of posting a photo. Buddhists are predominately pacifists; and life is too short to live in fear.” Very well put, James.....you have a real skill with words and I needed some dhamma input here. Sarah p.s Paul & James - good to see you both;-)) ============================================ 16671 From: James Date: Mon Nov 4, 2002 0:18am Subject: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation" Sarah, You write, "James, you've written many posts and raised useful issues. I appreciate the shake-up, colour and life you've added here. Please take any `nit-picking' anytime from me as well-intended comments or attempts at clarification from just another `drooling idiot';-)" Hmmmm…I don't think I have done all of this for this group, actually my posts are like baby talk compared to the scholarly input of your key members, but I appreciate the compliment. I am getting accustomed to my posts being dissected for response. I think most of my meaning is lost when that is done, but I can understand why. I don't think either of us are `drooling idiots', but I laughed at the joke. Okay, I was hoping this would not be picked up again; but since it has, I will respond. If you view this response as `hostile', you are mistaken. I am simply giving my opinion and no one has to agree with it. I am not trying to convince anyone of anything, just explain my position. First of all, I have A LOT of respect for monks. I visit the monks at my temple practically every week and do many things for them. When I greet monks I wai; I make sure I don't sit higher than they do; I wash their dishes after they eat; I clean the temple for them; and I pay careful attention to what they say even if it bores me to tears sometimes. Goodness gracious, I was going to become a monk at one point! But, and let me state this very clearly and then explain why: I do not overly respect self-identifying monks who participate in Dhamma discussion with lay people on the Internet. Any monk, who self- identifies as a monk, and does this, is not worthy of my high respect afforded to the Sangha because he: 1. Is abusing his position 2. Is cheapening his position 3. Is breaking his monk precepts. Explanation: 1. The Internet is a level-playing field where we are lay people discussing the Dhamma, not seeking instruction. When a member self-identifies as a bhikkhu, tells people how they should be or think about Dhamma, declares that no one should disagree because they aren't a bhikkhu, that is abuse of the position in the Sangha. I don't respect that. 2. When a bhikkhu discusses Dhamma in an Internet group with laypeople, on the same level as lay people, in the same forum as laypeople, that is not right either. That bhikkhu is cheapening his position as a bhikkhu to discuss the Dhamma as if he is a layperson. A bhikkhu will get my respect as a bhikkhu if he acts like one. If he doesn't, he is just another layperson to me. 3. Bhikkhu's participating in Dhamma discussion on the Internet are breaking several Bhikkhu precepts. The Buddha, in his infinite wisdom, foresaw how situations like this might happen and he came up with precepts as to how the Dhamma should be discussed and taught by bhikkhu's. Here are the rules: 57. I will not teach Dhamma to a person with an umbrella in his hand and who is not ill: a training to be observed. 58. I will not teach Dhamma to a person with a staff in his hand and who is not ill: a training to be observed. 59. I will not teach Dhamma to a person with a knife in his hand and who is not ill: a training to be observed. 60. I will not teach Dhamma to a person with a weapon in his hand and who is not ill: a training to be observed. 61. [62] I will not teach Dhamma to a person wearing non-leather [leather] footwear who is not ill: a training to be observed. 63. I will not teach Dhamma to a person in a vehicle and who is not ill: a training to be observed. 64. I will not teach Dhamma to a person lying down who is not ill: a training to be observed. 65. I will not teach Dhamma to a person who sits holding up his knees and who is not ill: a training to be observed. 66. I will not teach Dhamma to a person wearing headgear who is not ill: a training to be observed. 67. I will not teach Dhamma to a person whose head is covered (with a robe or scarf) and who is not ill: a training to be observed. 68. Sitting on the ground, I will not teach Dhamma to a person sitting on a seat who is not ill: a training to be observed. 69. Sitting on a low seat, I will not teach Dhamma to a person sitting on a high seat who is not ill: a training to be observed. 70. Standing, I will not teach Dhamma to a person sitting who is not ill: a training to be observed. 71. Walking behind, I will not teach Dhamma to a person walking ahead who is not ill: a training to be observed. 72. Walking beside a path, I will not teach Dhamma to a person walking on the path and who is not ill: a training to be observed. Now, how is a monk discussing or teaching Dhamma on the Internet going to be able to follow these precepts? He isn't. He cannot see the person, cannot check for their understanding or if they are of the proper mind to listen to Dhamma, so he is breaking 15 very important precepts. At my temple, the monks do not discuss Dhamma on the Internet, and won't even discuss it on the telephone!! I once forgot this and wrote an e-mail to a monk at my Buddhist temple, asked him a question about Buddhism, and he refused to answer by e-mail! He asked me to come see him. I have discussed this issue with monks of the Thera and Mahayana tradition and they all agree with me, monks should not discuss Dhamma on the Internet. A person who wants Dhamma instruction from a monk, in discussion rather than a book, needs to see that monk face-to-face. Otherwise, the teaching is corrupt. For these reasons, I hold that monks should not teach or discuss Dhamma on the Internet as self-identified monks. If they want to do it as regular laypeople, and not state that they are monks, I don't see a problem with that. This is just my opinion and I could be wrong. I am not trying to create controversy or `stir-things-up', just relating what I feel, think, researched, and discussed with others. Metta, James --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Hi James & Howard, > > James, I'm appreciating your contributions very much. Here is one more for > this popular thread;-) > > --- James wrote: > > I am not > > > > sure if I agree with your perspective; after all, would it matter > > to > > > > those being referred to as 'drooling idiots' if a Buddha said it > > or > > > > not? Probably not, after all, they are drooling idiots! > > hehehe... > ..... > On the contrary, I think that we `drooling idiots' (i.e all those of us > `unpurified') are likely to be not only overwhelmed by fear and dread > whilst seculded in the `remote jungle-thicket', but also very likely to > take offence if we were called such by another drooling idiot (B.Bodhi > translates `devoid of wisdom, drivellers' btw). > ..... > > > Howard: > > > Certainly. As far as bhikkhus are concerned, it is obviously > > true that > > > becoming a bhikkhu does not automatically make one "holy". Not all > > bhikkhus > > > are admirable, but all should be accorded respect out of respect > > for the > > > position, out of respect for the institution of the sangha. > ..... > I agree with H's comments here. When one pays respect to the Sangha - it > is respect to those who have followed the Buddha's teachings and made it > possible for us to hear them as represented by the `institution of the > sangha'. > > From the latest extract of the Satipatthana Sutta commentary: > ***** > "Bhikkhave = "Bhikkhus". This is a term for addressing persons who accept > the teaching. > > Bhikkhu[15] is a term to indicate a person who earnestly endeavors to > accomplish the practice of the teaching. Others, gods and men, too, > certainly strive earnestly to accomplish the practice of the teaching, > but because of the excellence of the bhikkhu-state by way of practice, > the Master said: "Bhikkhu." For amongst those who accept the teaching of > the Buddha, the bhikkhu is the highest owing to fitness for receiving > manifold instruction. Further, when that highest kind of person, the > bhikkhu, is reckoned, the rest too are reckoned, as in regard to a royal > procession and the like, when the king is reckoned, by the reckoning of > the king, the retinue is reckoned. Also the word "bhikkhu" was used by > the Buddha to point out the bhikkhu-state through practice of the > teaching in this way: "He who practices this practice of the Arousing of > Mindfulness is called a bhikkhu." He who follows the teaching, be he a > shining one [deva] or a human, is indeed called a bhikkhu. Accordingly > it is said: > > "Well-dressed one may be, but if one is calm, > Tamed, humble, pure, a man who does no harm > To aught that lives, that one's a brahman true. > An ascetic and mendicant too."[16] > > > 15. An almsman, a mendicant, monk, religious, or recluse. In the > Buddhadhamma it indicates generally any person who accepts and follows > earnestly the teaching; but technically it refers to one who has > received the higher ordination in the Holy Life. > > 16. Dhammapada verse 142." > ***** > > James: Hmmmm...I think I understand your position a bit more clear > > now. Not sure if I completely agree; but it is definitely > > admirable. Those who follow pure principles are becoming more and > > more rare nowadays. However, my thinking is that this position can > > lead to a 'slippery slope' of religious corruption. I believe more > > in the Buddha's system of 'Checks and Balances'. > ..... > I think that those `who follow pure principles' have always been rare. > It's a delicate subject, but surely we need to primarily be concerned with > the `Checks and Balances' that apply to our own conduct and mental states? > Unless we are asked for assistance or guidance, I'm not at all sure it is > appropriate to suggest `Checks and Balances' for others, especially not > for members of the Sangha, I think. > > This week, Jon and I will be providing a little medical dana for a > visiting monk in Hong Kong. We will be mindful, according to our knowledge > of vinaya, of what is suitable and respectful on our behalf. For example, > we would make sure any offer of assistance was clear, appropriately made > and wouldn't involve any expense by the monk or anyone else, I'd make > sure, as a woman, I wasn't travelling alone with the monk, we would make > arrangements to make sure his meal was definitely finished before mid-day, > I'd walk behind him.....and so on. > > As to how a monk applies the `Checks and Balances' himself and whether he > follows strict vinaya and so on, this will depend on other factors, such > as his confidence in the Tipitaka and particularly in the Vinaya.These are > not my concern/responsibility and will certainly have their own > repercussions. > ..... > >He supported that > > the behavior and practice of a monk should determine if he is > > affored 'respect' and should be 'worthy of gifts', not his position > > in the Sangha. Tough issue, but the future of Buddhism depends on > > it. > .... > I agree with this and we read many accounts of those who lost the respect > and support of followers. We all know about the importance and value of > the Sangha and the weighty kamma for abuse of the order. This should be a > condition for compassion and equanimity on our part, rather than > hostility, I think. > ---------------------------------------------- > James: > > As I study the Abihdhamma more and ponder it > > more, I am starting to view it as an over-intellectualization of the > > Buddha's profound, yet simple, teachings. But I could be biased. > > The jury is still not in with me. :-) > .... > We hear this quite often on DSG;-) I hope that in time you also come to > see the Abhidhamma as `this moment'....like, dislike, fear, seeing, > hearing, respect, boredom, sounds, feelings....all are abhidhamma and not > separate from what is taught in the suttanta and vinaya. You may wish to > look at some of the articles on Rob K's websites as well as reading all > the Useful Posts;-)): > http://www.abhidhamma.org/ > http://www.vipassana.info/ > > James, you've written many posts and raised useful issues. I appreciate > the shake-up, colour and life you've added here. Please take any > `nit-picking' anytime from me as well-intended comments or attempts at > clarification from just another `drooling idiot';-) > > Sarah > ===== > > > 16672 From: Sarah Date: Mon Nov 4, 2002 0:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] temperaments Dear Larry (Nina & Jon), Like the section on ekayana (one/only path), I think the section on ‘types’ or temperaments is very important and very easily mis-understood. It’s not at all easy, I find. I've have appreciated all your comments. Larry, I understand all the 4 Arousings are for satipatthana/vipassana, but there can only be one object at a time and at times of insight/realization/enlightenment, it will depend on conditions which object is apparent. There is no need or way to know or think about this, but the Buddha mentions all the possibilities. Whatever we read about in the sutta relates to the development of satipatthana and the objects of satipatthana for all the different accumulations (whether using jhana as a basis or not)as I read it. You also ask a very good question in another post to Jon in which you agree that ‘everyone is attached to body, everyone desires pleasant feeling...’etc. You say ‘the 4 satipatthanas are the solution. What should we do?’. I would suggest that the 4 satipatthanas consist of all the actual phenomena in our lives. If there is an idea of ‘doing’ rather than ‘understanding’ these, then we’re bound to be on the wrong track. That’s why the emphasis is on sati and panna rather than on ‘atta’(self). So, considering very carefully what the actual phenomena are that can be known by insight is essential. Otherwise as others have suggested, there will be no knowing whether there is any understanding or insight.Wrong views and illusions may easily be taken for knowledge. Larry, it’s a bit long for you, but I’d like to just quote from a post I wrote a year ago(8750) after discussions on the same section about ‘types and characters’ with Khun Sujin. (I’ve deleted some names and slightly amended it here. In the orignal I also quoted from a post of Nina's and included the dialogue from the Cambodia talks): ***** “K.Sujin was emphasising that we have an idea that we know about our character or someone else’s character, but this is only thinking. Do we really know what the reality is now? We may think someone is an angry person or a sensuous person, but we all have a lot of dosa and lobha and we never know from moment to moment, according to complex conditions, what the reality will be. Apart from the Buddha, very few arahats were able to know others well enough to even be able to provide the appropriate object for highly developed jhana practice. K.Sujin mentioned the example about the foulness meditation subject. Even Sariputta did not know what was appropriate for that monk at that time.Only when the Buddha gave him the ‘golden lotus’ as an object did he attain jhanas and enlightenment. The point of this discussion was to show that realities are conditioned. Most of us agree that for the development of satipatthana there shouldn’t be any selection of object as this merely indicates an idea of self that can select an object for awareness. K.Sujin was stressing that even for the development of samatha, there shouldn’t be any selection of object either. Again it depends on conditions which object will condition calm and when there will be understanding (at level of samatha) of that object conditioning calm. It’s not a matter of deciding to ‘do anapanasati’ or ‘metta bhavana’ or ‘contemplate on death’. If there is metta to someone now, or wise reflection on death with understanding, these calm cittas will condition more calm cittas in the future by conditions. From time to time, when there has been discussion of the ‘any object without selection’ type, there has been reference to what I would think would be this passage in the Satipatthana Sutta com (p.28) under The Commentary section: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html ***** “In regard to the pair of the dull-witted and the keen-witted minds among tamable persons of the craving type and the theorizing type, pursuing the path of quietude [samatha] or that of insight [vipassana] in the practice of meditation, the following is stated: For the dull-witted man of craving type the Arousing of Mindfulness through the contemplation of the gross physical body is the Path to Purity; for the keen-witted of this type, the subtle subject of meditation on the feeling. And for the dull-witted man of the theorizing type the Path to Purity is the Arousing of Mindfulness through a subject not too full of distinctions, namely, consciousness [citta]; for the keen-witted of this type, the subject which teems with distinctions, namely the contemplation on things of the mind -- mental objects [dhammanupassana].........” ***** Many people again read this as a ‘thing to do’, a prescriptive course of action for different types. As stressed, from the point of view of dhammas, we can only say at any given moment what the reality or ‘type’ is, if there is awareness when that characteristic appears. This pasage, along with the description of carita (types) in the Vism, should be read, as Khun Sujin explained to us, as descriptions of brief moments for those realizing nibbana. Different realities have to be the objects of awareness at even the highest levels of understanding and it will depend on different accumulations and conditions what objects appear at these times. Only the Buddha could describe the objects appearing for all the different people realizing nibbana and the very many complex variations depending on jhana attainments and so many, many other conditions. In other words, even these descriptions which there has been passing reference to on several occasions, need to be understood in the light of anatta and conditioned realities. It’s not a question of certain objects or realities being superior or inferior to others. Sati and panna don’t mind at all what they know. Any idea of one object being preferable for the development of satipatthana shows the clinging again.” ***** Apologies for the length. I’d be grateful if anyone can give me a reference fothe story of the monk given the ‘golden lotus’ by the Buddha. Sarah ======== 16673 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Nov 4, 2002 1:57am Subject: Re: Fear and Courage Hi James, and All, I appreciate your reply very much. Especially the way you feel 'doubt' is the opposite of 'courage'. When I first read it, I disagreed immediately but could not rid myself of a niggling feeling that it 'felt' right, and that I had seen something similar recently. I eventually realised that it was when I was reading about Determination (adhimokkha) and Energy (Viriya) in the chapter on The Particulars in Nina's book 'Cetasikas'. http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas11.html ------------------------------- "The Visuddhimagga ( XIV, 151) gives the following definition of adhimokkha: The act of resolving is resolution. It has the characteristic of conviction. Its function is not to grope. It is manifested as decisiveness. Its proximate cause is a thing to be convinced about. It should be regarded as like a boundary-post owing to its immovableness with regard to the object. The "Paramattha Manjusa" (489), the commentary to the Visuddhimagga, states that: " the act of resolving should be understood as the act of being convinced about an object". As well ...<> "We read in the Visuddhimagga that the function of viriya is to consolidate conascent states. Viriya strengthens, supports the citta and the other cetasikas it accompanies so that they can carry out their work and do not "collapse"." --------------------------- So Adhimokkha (determination) and Viriya (energy) acting together could be seen as 'courage' in the sense that you mention of persevering with 'a right course of action'. Reading your post I experienced a 'fluctuation' in response - "yes, I agree" "no, I disagree" "that's a good bit" "uh-oh, not sure about that" ... Some bits I liked are: ". You aren't going to find much mention of `Courage' in the teachings because ALL of the teachings are about courage. Buddhism = Courage." "The Buddha's entire life is a testament to courage." One bit I definitely disagree with (and I think you may have written it more casually than I read it) is "Those who are not brave are not cut out to be Buddhist". I don't believe people have permanent characteristics. They are sometimes this, and sometimes that. Often in the same minute. My understanding is informed by an acceptance of time as unimaginably beginingless, rebirth as having occured uncountable times in many forms, kamma. and anatta. I am what I am (i.e. the sum total of my accumulations gathered in the long, long round of rebirths) and I cannot, quickly, be other than what I am, no matter how hard *I* strive. It is a very gradual process. I can be very brave in some situations. That is, I can stand for a principle and face criticism and derision even though I feel miserable, or angry, at the time. Usually I feel fear after the event, particularly if the threat was physical. But I do not think bravery or any emotion or mood is something solid that lasts more than a flickering mind moment before being replaced by many other wholesome (intending to keep the precepts, intending to abstain from breaking a precept) and unwholesome (anger, fear, misery, regret) moments in a neverending process. Interesting post James - I'm still thinking it through ... metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "James" wrote: > Christine, > > I read your post about courage, and the replies, and I think I have > a unique perspective to add. Allow me to give you my input. > > The post of mine you were referring to was examining `fear' and in > this recent post you suggest that courage is the opposite of fear, > the `other side of the coin'. I would not completely agree with > that. I see the opposite of fear being `equanimity'; I believe the > opposite of courage is `doubt'. You were wondering where courage > occurred in the teachings of the Buddha, your post was > titled, "Searching for `Courage' in the teachings." Now, I really > ask this lighthearted and loving, have you heard the saying > about, "One who can't see the `forest' through the `trees'"? I > believe this is the case here. You aren't going to find much > mention of `Courage' in the teachings because ALL of the teachings > are about courage. Buddhism = Courage. Those who are not brave are > not cut out to be Buddhist. > > The Buddha's entire life is a testament to courage. And he had this > courage, as he explained, because he had conquered his doubt. > Courage is not a Buddhist quality for the individual to develop, and > isn't explained thus in Buddhist scripture, because `courage' is a > quality that is `other' and not `self'. In other words, other > people will see a brave person as `courageous', but > that `courageous' person typically won't see himself as anything > other than ordinary and plain. If a person views him/herself > as `courageous', than it is more than likely vanity and not > courage. The courageous person simply knows that he/she has no > doubt about the right course of action to take. He or she does it, > in the face of incredible odds, and then other people label that act > as courageous. Sure sounds like the Buddha and all those who choose > to follow his teachings, though his teachings run contrary to the > mores of predominate society. > > Actually, paradoxically, the scriptures do talk about courage quite > frequently; it just isn't called courage, it is called > the `Elimination of Doubt', which is one of the five hindrances to > the eightfold path and enlightenment (the other four being: Sensual > Desire, Ill-will, Sloth/Torpor, Restlessness/Remorse). I don't want > to quote numerous suttas about this subject, but allow me to quote > one of my favorite passages about doubt: > > "If there is a pot of water which is turbid, stirred up and muddy, > and this pot is put into a dark place, then a man with a normal > faculty of sight could not properly recognize and see the image of > his own face. In the same way, when one's mind is possessed by > doubt, overpowered by doubt, then one cannot properly see the escape > from doubt which has arisen; then one does not properly understand > one's own welfare, nor that of another, nor that of both; and also > texts memorized a long time ago do not come into one's mind, not to > speak of those not memorized." SN 46:55 > > If the Buddha had not conquered his doubt early on, there would not > be any such thing called `Buddhism'. Most people who would like to > become monks, like to meditate more often, like to be better people, > like to call him/herselves Buddhist, like to lead an ethical life, > like to be more generous, etc., etc., etc., but don't do this, > usually don't do these things because of doubt. Doubt in ourselves > and The Triple Gem is what we all must conquer if we are to achieve > true peace. (A good article on the Five Hindrances and how they can > be conquered is available here: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel026.html#doubt) > > Allow me to end with one of my favorite Shakespearean lines related > to this subject, from 'The Tragedy of Macbeth': > > MACBETH. > If we should fail? > > LADY MACBETH. > We fail! > But screw your courage to the sticking-place, > And we'll not fail. > > (Wasn't for a good purpose in this case, but the same idea). > > Metta, James 16674 From: Sarah Date: Mon Nov 4, 2002 4:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation" Hi James. --- James wrote: > Sarah, > Hmmmm…I don't think I have done all of this for this group, actually > my posts are like baby talk compared to the scholarly input of your > key members, but I appreciate the compliment. I am getting > accustomed to my posts being dissected for response. I think most > of my meaning is lost when that is done, but I can understand why. > I don't think either of us are `drooling idiots', but I laughed at > the joke. .... ;-) Of course no one likes to be considered a ‘drooling idiot’ or ‘devoid of wisdom, drivellers’, but according to the definition in the Bhayabherava Sutta you referred to (MN4), I understand it would refer to all us lacking in ‘noble’ wisdom. As for any dissection of your posts, well, as you remind us, it is a discussion list....;-) ..... I’ve read the rest of your message with interest and appreciated the listing of the precepts from the vinaya. I didn’t see it as ‘hostile’ and understand you’ve considered this area carefully. It raises many points and considerations which I’m just going to reflect on for now. ..... >‘First of all, I have A LOT of respect for > monks. I visit the monks at my temple practically every week and do > many things for them. When I greet monks I wai; I make sure I don't > sit higher than they do; I wash their dishes after they eat; I clean > the temple for them; and I pay careful attention to what they say > even if it bores me to tears sometimes. Goodness gracious, I was > going to become a monk at one point! .... I appreciate this, James. Anumodana.......I have to laugh about the ‘even if it bores me to tears’...... at least here on DSG, you can ‘zap’ any of us that have that effect on you;-) Sarah ===== 16675 From: James Date: Mon Nov 4, 2002 5:30am Subject: Re: Fear and Courage Christine, Glad you enjoyed the post. You write, "One bit I definitely disagree with (and I think you may have written it more casually than I read it) is "Those who are not brave are not cut out to be Buddhist" Yes, I didn't mean that sentence the way you took it. I was thinking, "Those who will not allow themselves to be brave are not cut out to be Buddhist." But I thought that was kinda wordy. I love 'punchlines' (Sarah got me on that one! :-). I don't believe that people are born 'brave'. In my opinion, bravery is the result of childhood upbringing for the most part and can be cultivated later in life if not established in early childhood; but this cultivation is much more difficult later in life and can facilitate the need for therapy since meditation alone would be incomplete. Metta, James --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hi James, and All, > > I appreciate your reply very much. Especially the way you > feel 'doubt' is the opposite of 'courage'. When I first read it, I > disagreed immediately but could not rid myself of a niggling feeling > that it 'felt' right, and that I had seen something similar > recently. I eventually realised that it was when I was reading about > Determination (adhimokkha) and Energy (Viriya) in the chapter on The > Particulars in Nina's book 'Cetasikas'. > http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas11.html > ------------------------------- > "The Visuddhimagga ( XIV, 151) gives the following definition of > adhimokkha: > The act of resolving is resolution. It has the characteristic of > conviction. Its function is not to grope. It is manifested as > decisiveness. Its proximate cause is a thing to be convinced about. > It should be regarded as like a boundary-post owing to its > immovableness with regard to the object. > The "Paramattha Manjusa" (489), the commentary to the Visuddhimagga, > states that: > " the act of resolving should be understood as the act of being > convinced about an object". > As well ...<> "We read in the Visuddhimagga that the function > of viriya is to consolidate conascent states. Viriya strengthens, > supports the citta and the other cetasikas it accompanies so that > they can carry out their work and do not "collapse"." > --------------------------- > So Adhimokkha (determination) and Viriya (energy) acting together > could be seen as 'courage' in the sense that you mention of > persevering with 'a right course of action'. > Reading your post I experienced a 'fluctuation' in response - "yes, I > agree" "no, I disagree" "that's a good bit" "uh-oh, not sure about > that" ... > Some bits I liked are: ". You aren't going to find much > mention of `Courage' in the teachings because ALL of the teachings > are about courage. Buddhism = Courage." > "The Buddha's entire life is a testament to courage." > > One bit I definitely disagree with (and I think you may have written > it more casually than I read it) is "Those who are not brave are not > cut out to be Buddhist". I don't believe people have permanent > characteristics. They are sometimes this, and sometimes that. Often > in the same minute. My understanding is informed by an acceptance > of time as unimaginably beginingless, rebirth as having occured > uncountable times in many forms, kamma. and anatta. I am what I am > (i.e. the sum total of my accumulations gathered in the long, long > round of rebirths) and I cannot, quickly, be other than what I am, > no matter how hard *I* strive. It is a very gradual process. I can > be very brave in some situations. That is, I can stand for a > principle and face criticism and derision even though I feel > miserable, or angry, at the time. Usually I feel fear after the > event, particularly if the threat was physical. But I do not think > bravery or any emotion or mood is something solid that lasts more > than a flickering mind moment before being replaced by many other > wholesome (intending to keep the precepts, intending to abstain from > breaking a precept) and unwholesome (anger, fear, misery, regret) > moments in a neverending process. > > Interesting post James - I'm still thinking it through ... > > metta, > Christine > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "James" wrote: > > Christine, > > > > I read your post about courage, and the replies, and I think I have > > a unique perspective to add. Allow me to give you my input. > > > > The post of mine you were referring to was examining `fear' and in > > this recent post you suggest that courage is the opposite of fear, > > the `other side of the coin'. I would not completely agree with > > that. I see the opposite of fear being `equanimity'; I believe the > > opposite of courage is `doubt'. You were wondering where courage > > occurred in the teachings of the Buddha, your post was > > titled, "Searching for `Courage' in the teachings." Now, I really > > ask this lighthearted and loving, have you heard the saying > > about, "One who can't see the `forest' through the `trees'"? I > > believe this is the case here. You aren't going to find much > > mention of `Courage' in the teachings because ALL of the teachings > > are about courage. Buddhism = Courage. Those who are not brave > are > > not cut out to be Buddhist. > > > > The Buddha's entire life is a testament to courage. And he had > this > > courage, as he explained, because he had conquered his doubt. > > Courage is not a Buddhist quality for the individual to develop, > and > > isn't explained thus in Buddhist scripture, because `courage' is a > > quality that is `other' and not `self'. In other words, other > > people will see a brave person as `courageous', but > > that `courageous' person typically won't see himself as anything > > other than ordinary and plain. If a person views him/herself > > as `courageous', than it is more than likely vanity and not > > courage. The courageous person simply knows that he/she has no > > doubt about the right course of action to take. He or she does it, > > in the face of incredible odds, and then other people label that > act > > as courageous. Sure sounds like the Buddha and all those who > choose > > to follow his teachings, though his teachings run contrary to the > > mores of predominate society. > > > > Actually, paradoxically, the scriptures do talk about courage quite > > frequently; it just isn't called courage, it is called > > the `Elimination of Doubt', which is one of the five hindrances to > > the eightfold path and enlightenment (the other four being: Sensual > > Desire, Ill-will, Sloth/Torpor, Restlessness/Remorse). I don't > want > > to quote numerous suttas about this subject, but allow me to quote > > one of my favorite passages about doubt: > > > > "If there is a pot of water which is turbid, stirred up and muddy, > > and this pot is put into a dark place, then a man with a normal > > faculty of sight could not properly recognize and see the image of > > his own face. In the same way, when one's mind is possessed by > > doubt, overpowered by doubt, then one cannot properly see the > escape > > from doubt which has arisen; then one does not properly understand > > one's own welfare, nor that of another, nor that of both; and also > > texts memorized a long time ago do not come into one's mind, not to > > speak of those not memorized." SN 46:55 > > > > If the Buddha had not conquered his doubt early on, there would not > > be any such thing called `Buddhism'. Most people who would like to > > become monks, like to meditate more often, like to be better > people, > > like to call him/herselves Buddhist, like to lead an ethical life, > > like to be more generous, etc., etc., etc., but don't do this, > > usually don't do these things because of doubt. Doubt in ourselves > > and The Triple Gem is what we all must conquer if we are to achieve > > true peace. (A good article on the Five Hindrances and how they > can > > be conquered is available here: > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel026.html#doubt) > > > > Allow me to end with one of my favorite Shakespearean lines related > > to this subject, from 'The Tragedy of Macbeth': > > > > MACBETH. > > If we should fail? > > > > LADY MACBETH. > > We fail! > > But screw your courage to the sticking-place, > > And we'll not fail. > > > > (Wasn't for a good purpose in this case, but the same idea). > > > > Metta, James 16676 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 4, 2002 10:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 19, . Pali texts co and subco. Hi Larry, As you saw, I also have Qu about recollection of kusala. Always something to learn! op 02-11-2002 19:35 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: I guess for now I will be satisfied with simply > saying sati is recollection of kusala and satipatthana is directing that > kusala toward nibbana, unless you have some qualms about this. N: As to your last sentence: The development of satipatthana, I believe, is the development of right understanding of any nama or rupa apperaing now, even if it is akusala, such as doubt, fear, impatience. All the accumulated kusala is never lost, it is a supporting condition for the development of panna. But it is important not to take kusala for my kusala. The first goal, reached at the first stage of enlightenment is the eradication of the wrong view of self. Your other qu: [Tika] Drawing distinctions, it is said: Body and feeling are the cause of zest [assadassa karana] What does assadassa mean? Is it the same as piti ('joyful interest')? N: assaada is enjoyment, satisfaction. We read in the Suttas: what is the enjoyment in visible object, etc. What is the escape: nissara.na. Nina 16677 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 4, 2002 10:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 18,jhana and insight. Hi Larry, op 30-10-2002 01:35 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Way 16: For the dull-witted man, pursuing quietude, the First Arousing > of Mindfulness, body-contemplation, is the Path to Purity, by reason of > the feasibility of getting at the mental reflex; for the keen-witted of > this type, because he does not continue to stay in the coarse, the > second Arousing of Mindfulness, the contemplation on feeling, is the > Path to Purity. > > Way 18: [T] "Because he does not continue to stay in the coarse": The > keen-witted man pursuing the path of quietude lays hold of the gross > subject of meditation, but he does not stay in that. He lays hold of > feeling, the subtle subject of meditation, by way of the factors of > absorption [jhana] after attaining to and emerging from the absorption > reached with the material body as subject. > > Hi all, > > I am taking this to mean for the dull or keen-witted man who wants to > practice jhana, taking body or feeling as object of jhana is the path to > purity. Is this saying that jhana using body or feeling as object > qualifies as satipatthana but using a kasina, for example, does not? Or > is it just an example of alternate uses of objects of satipatthana? Or N: After someone has attained jhana he develops insight of, for example the happy feeling that arose with jhanacitta and other jhanafactors that appear. At such moments it is the development of satipatthana. I believe that this is the meaning of the above quoted texts. We have to distinguish moments of development and attainment of jhana, and after that moments of development of insight: when nama and rupa appearing at the present moment are the objects. your Q :getting at the mental reflex: the nimitta in the development of samatha. A mental image of the meditation subject. Nina. 16678 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 4, 2002 10:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 19, Comm. eradication. Hi Larry, There are four kinds of ahara, nutriment: physical nutriment, contact, volition (feeds rebirth), citta: rebirth-consciousness: feeds nama and rupa, life goes on. The four Arousings, thus, satipatthana, finally leads to the eradication of all defilements: the floods, etc. . op 03-11-2002 05:00 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Further these Four Arousings of Mindfulness were taught not only for the > purpose of casting out the four illusions, but for getting rid of the > four floods, bonds, outflowings, knots, clingings, wrong courses, and > the penetration of fourfold nutriment, too. This is according to the > method of exegesis in the Nettipakarana. > > Hi all, > > Here is something from Visuddhimagga XIV par. 226: > > And in particular, one who sees internal materiality as foul (ugly) > fully understands nutriment consisting of physical nutriment. He > abandons the perversion [of perceiving] beauty in the foul (ugly), he > crosses the flood of sense desire, he is loosed from the bond of sense > desire, he becomes canker free as regards the canker of sense desire, he > breaks the bodily tie of covetousness. He does not cling with > sense-desire clinging. > > One who sees feeling as pain fully understands nutriment consisting of > contact. He abandons the perversion of perceiving pleasure in the > painful. He crosses the flood of becoming. He is loosed from the bond of > becoming. He becomes caker free as regards the canker of becoming. He > breaks the bodily tie of ill-will. He does not cling with > rites-and-ritual clinging. > > One who sees perception and formations as not-self fully understands > nutriment consisting of mental volition. He abandons the perversion of > perceiving self in the not-self. He crosses the flood of views. He is > loosed from the bond of views. He breaks the bodiy tie of > interpretations (insistence) that 'This is the truth'. He does not cling > with self-theory clinging. > > One who sees consciousness as impermanent fully understands nutriment > consisting of consciousness. He abandons the perversion of perceiving > permanence in the impermanent. He crosses the flood of ignorance. He is > loosed from the bond of ignorance. He breaks the bodily tie of holding > to rites and rituals. He does not [cling with false-] view clinging. > -----------------end quote > > L: So seeing consciousness as impermanent, perception and formation as > not self, feeling as pain, and internal materiality as foul is, in > brief, the sum total of the vipassana aspect of satipatthana. Correct? 16679 From: Date: Mon Nov 4, 2002 5:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] temperaments Hi Sarah, My view, at the moment, is if someone relies on a teacher, they should follow the instructions of the teacher; if they don't, they should do whatever seems reasonable (kusala). It seems to me A. Sujin's approach to teaching satipatthana is don't stay with one satipatthana practice in a disciplined way because that will reinforce 'self' view. Just follow the moment. Whatever arises, that is your 'object'. This is fine with me, especially as it is part of a larger program of immersion in abhidhamma, but it isn't the only way. Most teachers teach a disciplined practice and the commentary certainly suggests that a person take one practice as a main practice. If 'self' view is a problem, take that as object. Try to find the self. The main value for me in this section of the commentary is that it shows me what to look for. If I am practicing a 'body' or 'feeling' practice (there's no 'practise' in Am. english) then I should relax into tranquility and perhaps remind myself of the disgusting qualities of the body or the disappointing quality of feeling. If I am looking at states of mind (or consciousness in general ?) I should be looking for their impermanence. If I am looking at views or compounds I should be looking for their 'self'. This is all a bit sketchy in my mind, but I am sure we will gain a better understanding as we go along. Larry 16680 From: Date: Mon Nov 4, 2002 5:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 19, . Pali texts co and subco. Hi Nina, Thanks for your reply. I think we're in agreement on the general purpose of satipatthana. As for 'assadassa' I guess we can at least conclude it isn't the same as piti. Other translators translate 'piti' as 'zest' but the zest that is caused by body and feeling isn't piti, an enlightenment factor and quality in some of the jhanas. Is 'assaada' (enjoyment, satisfaction) a form of 'assaadassa'? Btw, I did a search and found out it is also a girl's name. http://www.kabalarians.com/female/assadassa.htm Larry 16681 From: Date: Mon Nov 4, 2002 5:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 18,jhana and insight. Thanks again Nina. "Mental reflex' = nimita. Larry 16682 From: Date: Mon Nov 4, 2002 5:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 19, Comm. eradication. Hi Nina, What do you think about this question: "L: So seeing consciousness as impermanent, perception and formation as not self, feeling as pain, and internal materiality as foul is, in brief, the sum total of the vipassana aspect of satipatthana. Correct?" Is the fine discrimination of all the various dhammas in the abhidhamma really necessary? Or could we just see whatever arises as foul, painful, impermanent, or not self? Larry 16683 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Nov 4, 2002 6:31pm Subject: [dsg] Re: to appreciate Buddhist goal of parinibbana1 --- Dear Howard, I am not sure I understand your posts on Nibbana. Are you suggesting that after the death of an arahant that awareness still continues? If so which of the five aggreagtes is this awareness? Is it permanent or is it still arising and ceasing? | Robert > In a message dated 11/1/02 11:08:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, > rjkjp1@y... writes: > > > > > The fuel is craving > > and ignorance. The fire is nama and rupa (ie the khandas). Once > > that fuel is no longer being added (upon attainment of arahant) > > the fire will soon die out(khandha parinibbana > > Arahant is a term useful to designate a stream of nama and rupa > > (past, present or future) that no longer has avijja (and hence > > no other defilements). > > Before cuti citta(death moment) arises this stream is like a > > fire where no > > more fuel is added; at cuti citta the fire is finally > > extinguished. > > > ============================ > Howard: How, please, is that different from the atheist/materialist > annihilationist picture of death? [Unless, of course, the cessation of > namarupa is not the cessation of awareness in *every* possible sense, but > only of a particular, dualistic sort of defiled awareness flowing out of > unexpired kamma.] > Some people will answer that this would be an annihilationist view > only if to begin with there is a self which is annihilated at death. But I > find that response to be inadequate, because a complete cessation of > awareness in every possible sense, even a non-samsaric sense, is > annihilationist enough for me. > It seems to me that the passages in the Udana and elsewhere suggest a > meaning for nibbana that is something else, something that is neither the > becoming of the worlding nor the nothingness of absolute death. And, in fact, > throughout the Sutta Pitaka, the most common characterizations of nibbana are > that it is the end of dukkha and the end of the three poisons. Also, it seems > to me that if the death-simile for nibbana had been the core understanding > presented by the Buddha, it would have led to words other than 'Buddha' and > 'bodhi' - it would have led to words which instead of denoting an awakened > one and the awakened state would signify nothingness and annihilation. > > With metta, > Howard 16684 From: jaran jai-nhuknan Date: Mon Nov 4, 2002 6:41pm Subject: Re: Practice on DSG, Q1a,b Hi Chris, please see below. Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 20:48:13 -0000 From: "christine_forsyth" Subject: Practice on DSG Dear Group, I found the two posts about Roberts' meeting with Acharn Somporn very interesting, but I have a few questions about death and practice and hope someone may have the time and inclination to comment on them ... > From the first post :Meeting with Acharn somporn" "He said that reading the texts is one aspect but only by understanding sabhava -realities - directly can there be proper understanding. Everything is dhamma , whether it be seeing or hearing, colour or sound, hardness, heat, even avijja (ignorance) is dhamma. There is no one,no being there at all but because of wrong view the characteristics (lakkhana ) which are simply conditioned dhamma are taken as self. This is very deep and subtle sakkya ditthi shows itself by clinging to wrong practice. He said if there is real understanding of sabhava dhamma then there is no fear of death because there is no self in sabhava." Question 1. (a) I wonder if anyone could clarify for me how 'right practice' would occur in the everyday life of a buddhist today? (b) or more exactly, how 'wrong practice' in everyday life of a buddhist today would be defined? ---------------------------------- I enjoyed the posts as well. Roberts always has interesting points to share with us. Regarding the question above, it is an important question. I am sure many have addressed this very point many times although it may not have been in the way that answers your question directly. Before answering your question, let me tell you my view of 'right practice'. Right understanding encompasses right practice. IMHO, there is only one practice in Buddhism, and it is a noun, practice. Practice refers to the development of right understanding, meaning the growth of right understanding, not the making or improvement. :-) This is because right understanding is a dhamma; it arises due to conditions, falls away immediately, contains its own characteristics, and cannot be controlled. This is why it cannot be 'developed' (by us). The right practice of a Buddhist today is the same as that of those in the Buddha's time since the right understanding is always right understanding (although of many levels). However, what makes today different from the Buddha's time is the degree of wrong-view and other akusala dhammas. According to the Tipitaka and from my observations, we are full of, and affected by, more akusala dhammas than kusala dhammas. We have been influenced by the enemies of right understanding for a long time. Let's take this life as an example, we have been working hard for happiness, wealth, recognition, achievements all our life because wrong-view tell us there is 'Self'. As you know, the idea of Self is due to three things: wrong-view, attachment and conceit, and the idea of Self can be so subtle what we cannot 'feel' it or it can be very apparent. We don't have to think that there is a 'Self'-- it's automatic. As automatic as we see when we open our eyes, when we wake up, there is already idea of Self, how subtle it may be. Then we learned that people, things, concept are synthesized in our head due to ignorance, attachment and anger. Furthermore, everything around us is dhamma with anicca, dhukka and anatta quality. (we can be specific about anatta here, but let's leave it for the future discussion). Soon we learn that the 'Self' is due to, among other things, wrong-view, an akusala dhamma, a very bad thing. This is one degree of right understanding--listening and perhaps contemplating. Now because we love our Self and we want to be good and happy, we have to "do something" to get rid of Self and wrong-view. Automatically, being influenced by the enemies of right understanding, we have to be as successful as we are in the worldlies, so we set out to find a way. As you can see, this is under influence of "Self", but many of us don't know it or don't have enough courage to admit it. As you can see, the right understanding in one level does not easily translate to another (higher) level of understanding. We read all about the 'concept' of dhamma and understand most of it. However, when we come back to the 'world' in stead of sticking to we leave our understanding in the books we read (in our case, in the emails :-), we often go back to our 'usual': the influence of the enemies of right understanding--often lobha, attachment. With the attachment to Self, we go after kusala dhamma, metta, sati, panna, insights, vipassana nana, and even Nibbana, and we can't help feeling sorry (or guilty) when akusala dhamma arise. Often we tell ourselves (or Self) that we do it for the higher level of understanding, but what we fail to realize (or admit) is that we are going after good kusala dhamma and running away from akusala dhamma because of the idea of 'Self'. This is often because we are not being very 'honest' (to ourselves or just for the sake of dhamma). This is where tattaramajjhatattaa (one of general wholesome cetasikas) comes in. Until we are brave enough to accept any dhamma arising for us to study, until we are brave enough to study the quality of Self when we feel we have to do something for higher level of understanding, until we are brave enough to stick to what we study and understand in the book, and until we are brave enough to reason everything we read, listen, learn, observe, it is hard for the 'right practice' to grow or even arise. To me, facing the idea of 'Self' in daily life seems the hardest thing, and most critical, of the whole study. If you ask Sarah this question, I am sure she would say ''right practice' is anything that is based on 'right understanding.'' This is probably because you cannot put your finger on the 'right practice' since it is the quality of mind not visible to the eye as A Sujin once said that 'by looking, you cannot tell a person to whom satipatthana has arisen from others because noone knows his mind'. This stresses the importance of being very honest to oneself, since no one knows the quality his mind better than himself. We can fool someone else but not ourselves. I am digressing. Now that you know what my 'right practice' is, let's try to answer your question. Simply put, 'right practice' occurs in daily life that same way that lobha and other dhammas do--when there are conditions for it....so natural. And the prominent condition is probably right understanding. Based on the same principles, the 'wrong practice' can be simply defined as anything that is 'done' based on the idea of Self (due to attachment, wrong view, conceit as well as other akusala dhamma) whether one realizes it or not. Who can tell if it's right practice or a wrong one? Nobody knows that better than ourselves. Please note that I think that 'right practice' includes more than satipatthana (we have to ask Nina, Roberts K, Kom, Num, Jon and others I don't remember the names, sorry) according to AN8,2 (panna sutta), among others. Chris, may I say I always enjoy your posts. I wish I could be half as articulate as you are. With appreciation, Jaran 16685 From: James Mitchell Date: Mon Nov 4, 2002 6:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: to appreciate Buddhist goal of parinibbana1 Robert and All, OUCH!!! The question of questions! The long salami, the whole enchalada, the big cheese! I eagerly await how Howard will answer this question! This is more exciting than any action adventure movie yet! Get your popcorn ready! I don't mean to put the pressure on Howard; but I bet he has never gotten a question like this before! This is a question that even the Buddha would avoid answering for 45 years! Anyone want to vote on how he should answer? If so, dial 1-800-BUDDHIST-AMERICAN-IDOL. Calls are $2.00 a minute, but well worth it! :-) Metta, James --- rjkjp1 wrote: > --- > Dear Howard, > I am not sure I understand your posts on Nibbana. > Are you suggesting > that after the death of an arahant that awareness > still continues? If > so which of the five aggreagtes is this awareness? > Is it permanent or > is it still arising and ceasing? | > Robert > > > > In a message dated 11/1/02 11:08:03 PM Eastern > Standard Time, > > rjkjp1@y... writes: > > > > > > > > The fuel is craving > > > and ignorance. The fire is nama and rupa (ie the > khandas). Once > > > that fuel is no longer being added (upon > attainment of arahant) > > > the fire will soon die out(khandha parinibbana > > > Arahant is a term useful to designate a stream > of nama and rupa > > > (past, present or future) that no longer has > avijja (and hence > > > no other defilements). > > > Before cuti citta(death moment) arises this > stream is like a > > > fire where no > > > more fuel is added; at cuti citta the fire is > finally > > > extinguished. > > > > > ============================ > > Howard: How, please, is that different from > the > atheist/materialist > > annihilationist picture of death? [Unless, of > course, the > cessation of > > namarupa is not the cessation of awareness in > *every* possible > sense, but > > only of a particular, dualistic sort of defiled > awareness flowing > out of > > unexpired kamma.] > > Some people will answer that this would be > an > annihilationist view > > only if to begin with there is a self which is > annihilated at > death. But I > > find that response to be inadequate, because a > complete cessation > of > > awareness in every possible sense, even a > non-samsaric sense, is > > annihilationist enough for me. > > It seems to me that the passages in the > Udana and elsewhere > suggest a > > meaning for nibbana that is something else, > something that is > neither the > > becoming of the worlding nor the nothingness of > absolute death. > And, in fact, > > throughout the Sutta Pitaka, the most common > characterizations of > nibbana are > > that it is the end of dukkha and the end of the > three poisons. > Also, it seems > > to me that if the death-simile for nibbana had > been the core > understanding > > presented by the Buddha, it would have led to > words other > than 'Buddha' and > > 'bodhi' - it would have led to words which instead > of denoting an > awakened > > one and the awakened state would signify > nothingness and > annihilation. > > > > With metta, > > Howard > > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: > A star at dawn, > a bubble > > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer > cloud, a flickering > lamp, a > > phantom, and a dream./ (From the > Diamond > Sutra) > > ===== Two men look out the same prison bars; one sees mud and the other stars. ~ Frederick Langbridge ~ 16686 From: James Mitchell Date: Mon Nov 4, 2002 7:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Practice on DSG, Q1a,b --- jaran jai-nhuknan wrote: > Hi Chris, please see below. > > Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 20:48:13 -0000 > From: "christine_forsyth" > Subject: Practice on DSG > > Dear Group, > > I found the two posts about Roberts' meeting with > Acharn Somporn very > interesting, Is this Ajahn Somporn? The well-recognized meditation teacher who is now the abbot of: Wat Buddhamahamunee Buddhist Meditation Center 2501 Clover Lane Arlington, TX 76015 I would be very interested to know. He was my meditation teacher for four years and he has grown in stature/fame since then. However, in Thai Buddhist circles, things change very quickly. Thanks for any information you may have. Metta, James but I have a few questions about death > and practice and > hope someone may have the time and inclination to > comment on them ... > > > From the first post :Meeting with Acharn somporn" > "He said that reading the texts is one aspect but > only by understanding > sabhava -realities - directly can there be proper > understanding. > Everything is dhamma , whether it be seeing or > hearing, colour or > sound, hardness, heat, even avijja (ignorance) is > dhamma. There is no > one,no being there at all but because of wrong view > the > characteristics (lakkhana ) which are simply > conditioned dhamma are > taken as self. This is very deep and subtle sakkya > ditthi shows > itself by clinging to wrong practice. > He said if there is real understanding of sabhava > dhamma then there > is no fear of death because there is no self in > sabhava." > > Question 1. (a) I wonder if anyone could clarify > for me how 'right > practice' would occur in the everyday life of a > buddhist today? > (b) or more exactly, how 'wrong practice' in > everyday > life of a buddhist today would be defined? > ---------------------------------- > > I enjoyed the posts as well. Roberts always has > interesting points to share > with us. > > Regarding the question above, it is an important > question. I am sure many > have addressed this very point many times although > it may not have been in > the way that answers your question directly. Before > answering your question, > let me tell you my view of 'right practice'. > > Right understanding encompasses right practice. > IMHO, there is only one > practice in Buddhism, and it is a noun, practice. > Practice refers to the > development of right understanding, meaning the > growth of right > understanding, not the making or improvement. :-) > This is because right > understanding is a dhamma; it arises due to > conditions, falls away > immediately, contains its own characteristics, and > cannot be controlled. > This is why it cannot be 'developed' (by us). > > The right practice of a Buddhist today is the same > as that of those in the > Buddha's time since the right understanding is > always right understanding > (although of many levels). However, what makes today > different from the > Buddha's time is the degree of wrong-view and other > akusala dhammas. > According to the Tipitaka and from my observations, > we are full of, and > affected by, more akusala dhammas than kusala > dhammas. We have been > influenced by the enemies of right understanding for > a long time. Let's take > this life as an example, we have been working hard > for happiness, wealth, > recognition, achievements all our life because > wrong-view tell us there is > 'Self'. As you know, the idea of Self is due to > three things: wrong-view, > attachment and conceit, and the idea of Self can be > so subtle what we cannot > 'feel' it or it can be very apparent. We don't have > to think that there is a > 'Self'-- it's automatic. As automatic as we see when > we open our eyes, when > we wake up, there is already idea of Self, how > subtle it may be. > > Then we learned that people, things, concept are > synthesized in our head due > to ignorance, attachment and anger. Furthermore, > everything around us is > dhamma with anicca, dhukka and anatta quality. (we > can be specific about > anatta here, but let's leave it for the future > discussion). > > Soon we learn that the 'Self' is due to, among other > things, wrong-view, an > akusala dhamma, a very bad thing. This is one degree > of right > understanding--listening and perhaps contemplating. > Now because we love our > Self and we want to be good and happy, we have to > "do something" to get rid > of Self and wrong-view. Automatically, being > influenced by the enemies of > right understanding, we have to be as successful as > we are in the worldlies, > so we set out to find a way. As you can see, this is > under influence of > "Self", but many of us don't know it or don't have > enough courage to admit > it. > > As you can see, the right understanding in one level > does not easily > translate to another (higher) level of > understanding. We read all about the > 'concept' of dhamma and understand most of it. > However, when we come back to > the 'world' in stead of sticking to we leave our > understanding in the books > we read (in our case, in the emails :-), we often go > back to our 'usual': > the influence of the enemies of right > understanding--often lobha, > attachment. With the attachment to Self, we go after > kusala dhamma, metta, > sati, panna, insights, vipassana nana, and even > Nibbana, and we can't help > feeling sorry (or guilty) when akusala dhamma arise. > Often we tell ourselves > (or Self) that we do it for the higher level of > understanding, but what we > fail to realize (or admit) is that we are going > after good kusala dhamma and > running away from akusala dhamma because of the idea > of 'Self'. > > This is often because we are not being very 'honest' > (to ourselves or just > for the sake of dhamma). This is where > tattaramajjhatattaa (one of general > wholesome cetasikas) comes in. Until we are brave > enough to accept any > dhamma arising for us to study, until we are brave > enough to study the > quality of Self when we feel we have to do something > for higher level of > understanding, until we are brave enough to stick to > what we study and > understand in the book, and until we are brave > enough to reason everything > we read, listen, learn, observe, it is hard for the > 'right practice' to grow > or even arise. > > To me, facing the idea of 'Self' in daily life seems > the hardest thing, and > most critical, of the whole study. > > If you ask Sarah this question, I am sure she would > say ''right practice' is > anything that is based on 'right understanding.'' > > This is probably because you cannot put your finger > on the 'right practice' > since it is the quality of mind not visible to the > eye as A Sujin once said > that 'by looking, you cannot tell a person to whom > satipatthana has arisen > from others because noone knows his mind'. > > This stresses the importance of being very honest to > oneself, since no one > knows the quality his mind better than himself. We > can fool someone else but > not ourselves. > > I am digressing. Now that you know what my 'right > practice' is, let's try to > answer your question. Simply put, 'right practice' > occurs in daily life that > same way that lobha and other dhammas do--when there > are conditions for > it....so natural. And the prominent condition is > probably right > understanding. > > Based on the same principles, the 'wrong practice' > can be simply defined as > anything that is 'done' based on the idea of Self > (due to attachment, wrong > view, conceit as well as other akusala dhamma) > whether one realizes it or > not. Who can tell if it's right practice or a wrong > one? Nobody knows that > better than ourselves. > > Please note that I think that 'right practice' > includes more than > satipatthana (we have to ask Nina, Roberts K, Kom, > Num, Jon and others I > don't remember the names, sorry) according to AN8,2 > (panna sutta), among > others. > > Chris, may I say I always enjoy your posts. I wish I > could be half as > articulate as you are. > > With appreciation, > Jaran > > ===== Two men look out the same prison bars; one sees mud and the other stars. ~ Frederick Langbridge ~ 16687 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Nov 4, 2002 8:40pm Subject: Re: Buddha's Parinibbana: "Like a flame's unbinding was the liberation of awareness" --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, all - > > A liberated awareness is still awareness. It is well described as = > vi~n~nanam anidassanam anantam sabbato paham (translated as "discernment, > non-manifestive, infinite, accessible from all round"), and this in answer to > the question of where the four great elements stop without remainder. [The > preceding is taken from the Kevaddha Sutta of the Digha Nikaya as translated > by Peter Harvey. Maurice Walshe translates it as "Where consciousness is > signless, boundless, all luminous"] > The following is the ending of the Parinibbana Sutta (taken from ATI), > translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu: > ************************** > When the Blessed One was totally Unbound, simultaneously with the total > Unbinding, Ven. Anuruddha uttered this verse: > < > > he endured the pain. > > Like a flame's unbinding > > was the liberation > > of awareness. > ************************ >Dear Howard, You might remember an earlier post from Suan where he explained htis in some detail: He wrote, 1. PARINIBBANA COMMENTARY PALI "Parinibbutaa naama arahattapattito patthaaya kilesavattassa khepitattaa sa-upaadisesena, carimacittanirodhena khandhavattassa khepitattaa anupaadisesena caati dviihi parinibbaanehi parinibbutaa, anupaadaano viya padiipo apannattikabhaavaam gataati attho." "`Parinibbutaa' is the ultimate cool by means of two-way complete extinguishments, one with the existential residues emptied of defilement machinery ever since attainment of Arahatta awakening, and the other without the existential residues emptied of psychophysical machinery by termination of the last mind (the dying consciousness). It has the meaning of reaching the state of the undefined reality like the lamp without fuel." Carimacittanirodho – termination of the last mind Apannattikabhaavo - the state of undefined reality Buddhaghosa's explanation of `parinibbutaa' includes the unmistakable expression `carimacittanirodhena – by termination of the last mind' on the death of an Arahant. The last mind in a lifetime is the dying consciousness (cuticittam), which is, by the way, the finish line of `bhavanga cittam – the life-cause consciousness.' The term `bhavanga' is made up of two words `bhava+anga'. Bhava means life or sentient existence. Anga means component or cause. Thus, bhavanga means life-cause or life-component, or the cause of sentient existence. Bhavanga cittam is the consciousness that makes the sentient existence possible. It causes and perpetuates sentient existence. On the death of a sentient being who hasn't attained Arahatta awakening, the linking consciousness (patisandhi cittam) immediately follows the dying consciousness for a rebirth. Why immediately? It is because we can't suspend the bhavanga cittam in a limbo state. The linking consciousness is the start line of the life-cause consciousness (bhavanga cittam) in a lifetime. In other words, the difference between an Arahant and a non-Arahant is the termination of the life-cause consciousness for the Arahant and the perpetuation of the life-cause consciousness for the non- Arahant. An Arahant terminates the life-cause consciousness while ordinary sentient beings perpetuate the life-cause consciousnesses. The death of an Arahant is the termination of bhavanga cittam, the life-cause consciousness. In other words, the Parinibbaana of an Arahant is the end of the sentient existence. PARINIBBANA SUBCOMMENTARY Part Two Ends Here. With regards, Suan Lu Zaw 16688 From: Sarah Date: Mon Nov 4, 2002 9:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] temperaments Hi Larry (& Jaran a little), I understand what you are saying. You may be surprised to hear this, but I don’t actually think it’s very helpful to rely on a teacher or to just follow instructions from anyone, no matter how well regarded they are. I think we need to listen to what seems helpful at the time, consider carefully as to whether it really makes sense for us and test it out in daily life. This also applies to what we read in the suttas and the abhidhamma. I know I referred a lot to K.Sujin in my post to you-(I said to Jon later that there was too much K.Sujin for Larry;-). This was because I was reporting back to others directly from discussions (according to how I heard and understood at the time) and I wished to give the credit/clarification where it was due. It doesn’t mean anyone should just take it as ‘gospel’ truth or follow blindly;-) I think, Jaran (great to read you after your loooong break btw), that I understand ‘right practice’ in daily life to refer to any moments of kusala of any kind - sila, dana or bhavana. If we’re discussing it in the context of the satipatthana sutta, however, then I’d say that ‘right practice’(patipada) refers to moments of awareness, accompanied by rt. understanding of one of the 4 satipatthanas. Larry, I don’t think it is a question of being disciplined or not. Awareness can be aware of any dhamma, even whilst lazing in the sun or watching a movie.You mention that the commentary suggests taking one practice as a main practice and I think this is a good example of just how un-simple the suttas really are. We’re reading the same sutta and the same commentary and sub-commentary. I don’t read it as suggesting anyone take any practice or select any object. How is this possible when there is no self to ‘take’ and dhammas arising are conditioned and anatta? I know that when you talk about ‘I’ it is just for convenience, but still, in this phrase, for example:“If I am looking at views or compounds I should be looking for their 'self'”, what is the “I” looking and what is the “self” it is looking for? Is it necessary to separate the knowledge gained from abhidhamma from that of the suttas? Shouldn’t the understanding gained from other parts of the Teachings be applied when we read a sutta? As you say, hopefully we’ll learn more as we go along. I feel very indebted to you for raising so many points and questions and for checking and clarifying at each point. It’s a condition for a lot of helpful consideration for me. You may also be surprised to hear that I learn a lot from your sincere,constructive and helpful approach too and particularly from the lack of evident ‘fear’ or mana (conceit) when it comes to raising these points or having any ignorance revealed. I believe this is the way for understanding and rt practice to develop. In appreciation. Sarah p.s. I think you’ll hear when different people go away and we all trust you to use your judgment as to whether to slow down installments, break or continue as you think fit. Nina will be away for the longest period, but others may help out in the meantime.... ================================================= 16689 From: Date: Mon Nov 4, 2002 5:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: to appreciate Buddhist goal of parinibbana1 Hi, Robert - In a message dated 11/4/02 9:34:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > Dear Howard, > I am not sure I understand your posts on Nibbana. Are you suggesting > that after the death of an arahant that awareness still continues? If > so which of the five aggreagtes is this awareness? Is it permanent or > is it still arising and ceasing? | > Robert > ======================== I don't know exactly what "reality" is. Nibbana, the absence of dukkha and of the three poisons, leaves that which is exposed as it really is. Now, *what* exatly that is I don't know. I doubt that, in fact, it is even describable. I think that anything we can talk about is not it. Now, when we talk about awareness, we generally mean vi~n~nana, the discernment of an object. But nama goes beyond vi~n~nana. Nama includes nibbana, which perhaps is (inadequately) describable as awareness of absence, absence of any and all separate conditions, and completely foreign to anything a worldling has experienced - so different, in fact, as to be not even properly called a thing or an awareness of a thing, but something totally "other". All that I definitely believe is that nibbana is not absolute nothingness, and that an arahant, both before and after death, is, at essence, indescribable, untraceable, and ungraspable, but not nothing. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16690 From: Date: Mon Nov 4, 2002 5:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddha's Parinibbana: "Like a flame's unbinding was the liberat... Hi, Robert - In a message dated 11/4/02 11:41:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > >Hi, all - > > > > A liberated awareness is still awareness. It is well described as = > > > >vi~n~nanam anidassanam anantam sabbato paham (translated > as "discernment, > >non-manifestive, infinite, accessible from all round"), and this in > answer to > >the question of where the four great elements stop without > remainder. [The > >preceding is taken from the Kevaddha Sutta of the Digha Nikaya as > translated > >by Peter Harvey. Maurice Walshe translates it as "Where > consciousness is > >signless, boundless, all luminous"] > > The following is the ending of the Parinibbana Sutta (taken from > ATI), > >translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu: > >************************** > >When the Blessed One was totally Unbound, simultaneously with the > total > >Unbinding, Ven. Anuruddha uttered this verse: > >< > >> he endured the pain. > >>Like a flame's unbinding > >> was the liberation > >> of awareness. > >************************ > >Dear Howard, > You might remember an earlier post from Suan where he explained htis > in some detail: > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I remember it. I just don't buy it. It essentially makes the death of an arahant into the same thing as materialists consider to be the death of any human or animal - DEATH, absolute, complete, and final, a complete cessation in *every* sense. And I see no reason to value such. Were I a materialist I wouldn't *fear* death - there would be nothing to fear. I just wouldn't consider it a worthwhile goal. And if that is what parinibbana is, then I wouldn't consider that a worthwhile goal either - nothing to fear, but nothing to value either. What is of value to me is the complete and utter cessation of ignorance, craving, and aversion, and hence of all that is unsatisfactory. =========================== With metta, Howard He wrote,> > 1. PARINIBBANA COMMENTARY PALI > > "Parinibbutaa naama arahattapattito patthaaya kilesavattassa > khepitattaa sa-upaadisesena, carimacittanirodhena khandhavattassa > khepitattaa anupaadisesena caati dviihi parinibbaanehi > parinibbutaa, anupaadaano viya padiipo apannattikabhaavaam gataati > attho." > > "`Parinibbutaa' is the ultimate cool by means of two-way complete > extinguishments, one with the existential residues emptied of > defilement machinery ever since attainment of Arahatta awakening, and > the other without the existential residues emptied of psychophysical > machinery by termination of the last mind (the dying consciousness). > It has the meaning of reaching the state of the undefined reality > like the lamp without fuel." > > Carimacittanirodho – termination of the last mind > Apannattikabhaavo - the state of undefined reality > > Buddhaghosa's explanation of `parinibbutaa' includes the > unmistakable expression `carimacittanirodhena – by termination of the > last mind' on the death of an Arahant. > > The last mind in a lifetime is the dying consciousness (cuticittam), > which is, by the way, the finish line of `bhavanga cittam – > the life-cause consciousness.' > > The term `bhavanga' is made up of two words `bhava+anga'. Bhava > means > life or sentient existence. Anga means component or cause. Thus, > bhavanga means life-cause or life-component, or the cause of sentient > existence. Bhavanga cittam is the consciousness that makes the > sentient existence possible. It causes and perpetuates sentient > existence. > > On the death of a sentient being who hasn't attained Arahatta > awakening, the linking consciousness (patisandhi cittam) immediately > follows the dying consciousness for a rebirth. Why immediately? It is > because we can't suspend the bhavanga cittam in a limbo state. > The linking consciousness is the start line of the life-cause > consciousness (bhavanga cittam) in a lifetime. > > In other words, the difference between an Arahant and a non-Arahant > is the termination of the life-cause consciousness for the Arahant > and the perpetuation of the life-cause consciousness for the non- > Arahant. > > An Arahant terminates the life-cause consciousness while ordinary > sentient beings perpetuate the life-cause consciousnesses. > > The death of an Arahant is the termination of bhavanga cittam, the > life-cause consciousness. In other words, the Parinibbaana of an > Arahant is the end of the sentient existence. > > PARINIBBANA SUBCOMMENTARY Part Two Ends Here. > > > With regards, > > Suan Lu Zaw > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16691 From: James Date: Mon Nov 4, 2002 10:31pm Subject: [dsg] Re: to appreciate Buddhist goal of parinibbana1 Robert and Howard, A member wrote to me and suggested that this post may be interpreted as sarcastic and that it isn't 'Right Speech'. I apologize that it could be seen that way. That was definitely not my intention. I was just being lighthearted and having fun. Even though I am more serious about Buddhism than anyone I know, I am really not that 'serious' about it; if you know what I mean. :-) I apologize if this post caused either of you any undue stress. Metta, James :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., James Mitchell wrote: > Robert and All, > > OUCH!!! The question of questions! The long salami, > the whole enchalada, the big cheese! I eagerly await > how Howard will answer this question! This is more > exciting than any action adventure movie yet! Get > your popcorn ready! I don't mean to put the pressure > on Howard; but I bet he has never gotten a question > like this before! This is a question that even the > Buddha would avoid answering for 45 years! > > Anyone want to vote on how he should answer? If so, > dial 1-800-BUDDHIST-AMERICAN-IDOL. Calls are $2.00 a > minute, but well worth it! :-) > > Metta, James > > --- rjkjp1 wrote: > > --- > > Dear Howard, > > I am not sure I understand your posts on Nibbana. > > Are you suggesting > > that after the death of an arahant that awareness > > still continues? If > > so which of the five aggreagtes is this awareness? > > Is it permanent or > > is it still arising and ceasing? | > > Robert > > > > > > > In a message dated 11/1/02 11:08:03 PM Eastern > > Standard Time, > > > rjkjp1@y... writes: > > > > > > > > > > > The fuel is craving > > > > and ignorance. The fire is nama and rupa (ie the > > khandas). Once > > > > that fuel is no longer being added (upon > > attainment of arahant) > > > > the fire will soon die out(khandha parinibbana > > > > Arahant is a term useful to designate a stream > > of nama and rupa > > > > (past, present or future) that no longer has > > avijja (and hence > > > > no other defilements). > > > > Before cuti citta(death moment) arises this > > stream is like a > > > > fire where no > > > > more fuel is added; at cuti citta the fire is > > finally > > > > extinguished. > > > > > > > ============================ > > > Howard: How, please, is that different from > > the > > atheist/materialist > > > annihilationist picture of death? [Unless, of > > course, the > > cessation of > > > namarupa is not the cessation of awareness in > > *every* possible > > sense, but > > > only of a particular, dualistic sort of defiled > > awareness flowing > > out of > > > unexpired kamma.] > > > Some people will answer that this would be > > an > > annihilationist view > > > only if to begin with there is a self which is > > annihilated at > > death. But I > > > find that response to be inadequate, because a > > complete cessation > > of > > > awareness in every possible sense, even a > > non-samsaric sense, is > > > annihilationist enough for me. > > > It seems to me that the passages in the > > Udana and elsewhere > > suggest a > > > meaning for nibbana that is something else, > > something that is > > neither the > > > becoming of the worlding nor the nothingness of > > absolute death. > > And, in fact, > > > throughout the Sutta Pitaka, the most common > > characterizations of > > nibbana are > > > that it is the end of dukkha and the end of the > > three poisons. > > Also, it seems > > > to me that if the death-simile for nibbana had > > been the core > > understanding > > > presented by the Buddha, it would have led to > > words other > > than 'Buddha' and > > > 'bodhi' - it would have led to words which instead > > of denoting an > > awakened > > > one and the awakened state would signify > > nothingness and > > annihilation. > > > > > > With metta, > > > Howard 16692 From: Sarah Date: Mon Nov 4, 2002 10:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sabbe dhammaa anattaa Hi KKT & Rahula, Thanks for raising this verse and your comments: > > KKT: A definition of Nibbana from the Udana: > > > > O bhikkhus, there is the unborn, ungrown, and unconditioned. > > Were there not the unborn, ungrown, and unconditioned, > > there would be no escape for the born, grown, and conditioned. > > Since there is the unborn, ungrown, and unconditioned, > > so there is escape for the born, grown, and conditioned. > > > > > > This definition could easily lead > > one to think that Nibbana is atta > > since one meaning of atta is that > > something << exists by itself >> and > > is << independent >> of other things. > > > > If Nibbana is << unborn, ungrown, and unconditioned >> > > then isn't Nibbana << existing by itself >> > > and << independent >> of everything? --- rahula_80 wrote: > Hi, > "In a psychological sense, a design could be 'unmade' or 'dissolved' > by shifting one's attention to its components. Even so, 'what is born' > (jaatam), 'become' (bhuutam), 'made' (katam) and 'compounded' > (samkhatam) is transformed into a 'not-born', 'not-become', 'not-made' > and 'not-compounded' state by a penetrative insight into its causes > and conditions. ..... I don’t understand nibbana to be ‘atta’ in any sense or to have been ‘transformed into’ as suggested by the quote form ‘The Magic of the Mind’. Let me quote from the commentary to this same passage in the Udana, Patali Villagers Chapter3(Masefield, PTS trans): ***** “That which is unborn, that which is unbecome, that which is uncreated, that which is unconditioned (ajaata.m abhuuta.m akata.m asa”nkhata.m): all these terms are synonymous with one another. Or alternatively, it is “that which is unborn”(ajaata.m) since, unlinke sensations and so on, it has not been born (na jaata.m), has not come into being, by way of the harmony of causes reckoned as the conjunction of root-cause and condition, “that which is unbecome” (abhuuta.m) since it has not become (na bhuuta.m), has not appeared, has not arisen, either in the absence of such a cause or else solely of its own accord, (whilst) on account of its being so unborn, on account of its being so unbecome, it is “that which is uncreated” (akata.m) since it has not been created (na kata.m) by way of any cause whatsoever, “that which is unconditioned” (asa”nkhata.m) being said with the aim of indicating that nibbaana, whose own nature is that of being unconditioned, does not possess the own nature of being born, become and created possessed by states that are conditioned, such as name-and-form and so on. Or alternatively, (taking things) in reverse order, “that which is conditioned” (sa”nkhata.m) is such since it has been created (kata.m) by conditions that have come together (samecca), that have become co-existent (sambuuya), “that which is unconditioned” (asa”nkhata.m) being such since that it is not so conditioned, since it lacks the characteristics of that which is conditioned. “That which is uncreated” (akata.m) is said with the aim of indicating that it has not been created by way of any (cause) whatsoever, lest the suspicion arise, when fact of its having been thus brought into being by way of multiple causes is ruled out, that it might still have been created by way of one sole cause. “That which is unbecome” (abhuuta.m) is said with the aim of steering (people) away from the suspicion that, although thus existing independently of any condition (appaccaya.m), it might still have become, have appeared, solely of its own accord. “That which is unborn” (ajaata.m) is said to indicate “And it has this state of being unconditioned, uncreated, (and) unbecome on account of its nature being that in which there is a total absence of birth”......................... “If there were not (na abhavissa = na siyaa, synonyms) that unconditioned element having as its own nature that which is unborn and so on, there could not be made known, there could not be discovered, there could not be witnessed, here, in this world, the escape, allayment without remainder (anavasesavuupasamo), for that which is conditioned reckoned as the khandha-pentad of form and so on that has as its own nature being born and so forth. For states associated with the ariyan path, such as right view and so on, as they proceed making nibbana their object, extirpate the defilements without remainder. In this way, there is made known in this connection the non-occurrence of, the disappearance of, the escape from, the entire dukkha belonging to the cycle.” ***** Look forward to more of your comments and quotes. Sarah ===== 16693 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Nov 4, 2002 10:50pm Subject: [dsg] Re: to appreciate Buddhist goal of parinibbana1 - Dear Howard and James, I think because of avijja(ignorance) that is so deeply embedded and still accumulating (ayuhana) it is hard to grasp even at this most basic intellectual level that all existence is inherently dukkha. Nina and Rahula= discussed Mara recently: "Maara is a name that can be used for all that is dukkha. Birth, old age and death are Maara. The PTS dict gives: death, maara can be applied to all conditioned realities: realm of rebirth, opposed to nibbana. Khandha(agreggates), dhatu, ayatana, they are maara. S, I, Many suttas confirm this, see suttas below that you quoted. Maara Samyutta. "Form, Radha is Mara, Feeling is Mara, Perceptions are Mara, Volitional Formations are Mara, Consciousness is Mara. He understands: '... there is no more for this state of being." > 1. Maarasuttam "Ruupa.m kho, raadha, maaro, vedanaa maaro, > saññaa maaro, sa"nkhaaraa maaro, viññaa.na.m maaro. Eva.m passa.m, > raadha, sutavaa ariyasaavako ruupasmimpi nibbindati, vedanaayapi > nibbindati, saññaayapi nibbindati, sa"nkhaaresupi nibbindati, > viñña.nasmimpi nibbindati. Nibbinda.m virajjati; viraagaa vimuccati. > Vimuttasmi.m vimuttamiti ñaa.na.m hoti. `Khii.naa jaati, vusita.m > brahmacariya.m, kata.m kara.niiya.m, naapara.m itthattaayaa'ti > pajaanaatii"ti. Pathama.m. Thus all the aggregates are mara. When we think of the Buddha as someone who existed we may already be caught in view. There was the khanda (agreggate ) of form , the khandha of Feeling, of Perceptions , of Volitional Formations of Consciousness . Was Buddha apart from the khandhas or in the Khandas ? What there was was dukkha: the khandhas. Once the causes for mara were extingushed at khandha parinibbana the flame of dukkha went out like a lamp that has run of fuel. Vacchagotta asked what happens to a Buddha after he dies. The Buddha talked about the extreme profundity of the Dhamma and then pointed to a fire and asked vacchagotta where the flame went after it had been extinguished: MAJJHIMA NIKAAYA II II. 3.2.Aggi-vacchagottasutta.m (72) "So then Vaccha, I will question you, on this and you may reply as it pleases you. There is a fire burning in front of you, would you know, there is a fire burning in front of me?' `Good Gotama, if a fire burns in front of me, I would know, there's a fire burning in front of me.' `Vaccha, if you were asked, this fire burning in front of you, on account of what is it burning, how would you reply?''Good Gotama, if I was asked, this fire burning in front of you, on account of what is it burning, I would reply, this fire burning in front of me is burning on account of grass and sticks.' `Vaccha, if the fire in front of you extinguishes, would you know, this fire in front of me has extinguished?''Good Gotama, if the fire in front of me extinguishes, I would know, this fire has extinguished''Vaccha, if you were asked, this fire that has extinguished in which direction did it go, to the east, west, north or south?' `Good, Gotama, it does not apply. That fire burnt on account of grass and sticks, those supports finished, no other supports were supplied, without supports the fire, went out.'. `Vaccha, in that same manner, the matter with which the Thus Gone One is pointed out, is dispelled, uprooted, made a palm stump, made a thing not to grow again."endquote. Robert -- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > I don't know exactly what "reality" is. Nibbana, the absence of dukkha > and of the three poisons, leaves that which is exposed as it really is. Now, > *what* exatly that is I don't know. I doubt that, in fact, it is even > describable. I think that anything we can talk about is not it. > Now, when we talk about awareness, we generally mean vi~n~nana, the > discernment of an object. But nama goes beyond vi~n~nana. Nama includes > nibbana, which perhaps is (inadequately) describable as awareness of absence, > absence of any and all separate conditions, and completely foreign to > anything a worldling has experienced - so different, in fact, as to be not > even properly called a thing or an awareness of a thing, but something > totally "other". All that I definitely believe is that nibbana is not > absolute nothingness, and that an arahant, both before and after death, is, > at essence, indescribable, untraceable, and ungraspable, but not nothing. > > With metta, > Howard 16694 From: Date: Mon Nov 4, 2002 5:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: to appreciate Buddhist goal of parinibbana1 Hi, James - I happened to have no problem with your post. Go know! ;-)) With metta, Howard In a message dated 11/5/02 1:33:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > Robert and Howard, > > A member wrote to me and suggested that this post may be interpreted > as sarcastic and that it isn't 'Right Speech'. I apologize that it > could be seen that way. That was definitely not my intention. I > was just being lighthearted and having fun. Even though I am more > serious about Buddhism than anyone I know, I am really not > that 'serious' about it; if you know what I mean. :-) I apologize > if this post caused either of you any undue stress. > > Metta, James :-) > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., James Mitchell wrote: > >Robert and All, > > > >OUCH!!! The question of questions! The long salami, > >the whole enchalada, the big cheese! I eagerly await > >how Howard will answer this question! This is more > >exciting than any action adventure movie yet! Get > >your popcorn ready! I don't mean to put the pressure > >on Howard; but I bet he has never gotten a question > >like this before! This is a question that even the > >Buddha would avoid answering for 45 years! > > > >Anyone want to vote on how he should answer? If so, > >dial 1-800-BUDDHIST-AMERICAN-IDOL. Calls are $2.00 a > >minute, but well worth it! :-) > > > >Metta, James > > > > --- rjkjp1 wrote: > >>--- > >>Dear Howard, > >>I am not sure I understand your posts on Nibbana. > >>Are you suggesting > >>that after the death of an arahant that awareness > >>still continues? If > >>so which of the five aggreagtes is this awareness? > >>Is it permanent or > >>is it still arising and ceasing? | > >>Robert > >> > >> > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16695 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Mon Nov 4, 2002 11:07pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Practice on DSG, Q1a,b Dear All, Only adding a crumb to this post... > -----Original Message----- > From: jaran jai-nhuknan [mailto:jjn@b...] > Then we learned that people, things, concept are > synthesized in our head due > to ignorance, attachment and anger. Furthermore, > everything around us is > dhamma with anicca, dhukka and anatta quality. > (we can be specific about > anatta here, but let's leave it for the future > discussion). The Arahants synthesize people, things, and concepts too, although with perfect mindfulness. > I am digressing. Now that you know what my 'right > practice' is, let's try to > answer your question. Simply put, 'right > practice' occurs in daily life that > same way that lobha and other dhammas do--when > there are conditions for > it....so natural. And the prominent condition is > probably right > understanding. > > Based on the same principles, the 'wrong > practice' can be simply defined as > anything that is 'done' based on the idea of Self > (due to attachment, wrong > view, conceit as well as other akusala dhamma) > whether one realizes it or > not. Who can tell if it's right practice or a > wrong one? Nobody knows that > better than ourselves. > > Please note that I think that 'right practice' > includes more than > satipatthana (we have to ask Nina, Roberts K, > Kom, Num, Jon and others I > don't remember the names, sorry) according to > AN8,2 (panna sutta), among > others. > Thanks for the inspiring post. I do have some concept about what the right practice is as well. For me, the right practice is the dhammas that lead to nibbana. The wrong practice (also dhammas) doesn't lead to nibbana. And what leads to nibbana? Satipatthana (the 8-fold path), and all the kusala states supporting it, conditioning it. kom 16696 From: Date: Mon Nov 4, 2002 11:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] temperaments Hi Sarah, Thanks for the kind words. I was just trying to be ecumenical. I don't really see a problem wth A. Sujin's approach except that it seems to make some efforts to invalidate any other method. There really can't be a problem with 'self' view in practicing satipatthana whether one practices for 2 hours at a time or off and on throughout the day because 'self' view can't arise with sati. And if one says I choose not to practice a certain way, that is making a choice. We have to go forward from where we are, baggage and all. We can't wait until we are arahants to take a step. I was a little confused about what you said about why we can't choose to look for a self. We are many months from getting to this topic (dhammanupassana) in the commentary and I haven't read ahead but I have heard that looking for a self is a good way of finding that there isn't one. This would apply to any compound or apparent whole whether a person or something else like the 'self' (identity) of a carriage. "Self" is actually a concept and can't be experienced. This is a good reason to understand, at least tentatively, what can and cannot be experienced (concept & reality). Experience = reality. But it is a little tricky seeing what exactly we are experiencing. I wouldn't mind taking a month off from further commentary postings just to let this stuff soak in a little. I was thinking mid november to mid december. What's the view? Too much break? not enough? Larry 16697 From: Sarah Date: Mon Nov 4, 2002 11:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddha's gradual instruction Hi Antony, You’ve been considering some difficult areas and making some good points about gradual instruction. You always give us useful quotes too. I’ve appreciated your discussion and the comments made by Rob K, Chris and James as well. --- antony272b2 > > My attempt to focus on mundane happiness instead of sankhara dukkha > was incomplete. ..... I think that we all focus on ‘mundane happiness’ and take for pleasure that which with more wisdom may later to be seen as ultimately unsatisfactory. We may appreciate that anger or fear are unhelpful/to be abandoned and we don’t need to be concerned if there are no conditions for them to arise in the future. Can we appreciate strong lust or wrong view in the same way? With more understanding there may be some wisdom about the danger of medium attachments or even of ignorance. Gradually all kilesa(defilements) and indeed all conditioned phenomena can be seen as dukkha. In other words, there is nothing to fear about the cessation of formations (at parinibbana) if there should ever be the conditions for the eradication of all defilements. Unless defilements (and all other kinds of phenomena) are seen and known as they really are, there won’t be any attenuation of them. While we crave for mundane happiness, the craving will continue. As Rob K suggested, it’s not a matter of trying to stop it or of changing our tendencies, but of slowly understanding them for what they are. Just as a child only understands to keep away from the fire after being burnt, so it’s only when conditioned dhammas are very gradually seen to be ‘burning, burning, burning, suffering, suffering, suffering’(thanks, James), that there will be any ‘turning away’ or appreciation of an end to the cycle of birth and death. Grieving or feeling sad or even taking the path too seriously with unhappy feelings is not the way. There’s no need to put anything on the line. Just live naturally and in ‘good cheer’, considering and appreciating just those aspects of the Teachings that are helpful for you at the present time. Imho, there’s no need to be interested or concerned about nibbana or parinibbana - this moment and understanding of what life is now, is far more precious. metta, Sarah ====== 16698 From: Sarah Date: Mon Nov 4, 2002 11:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] temperaments Hi Larry, I think your idea of a break in the Way from mid Nov to mid Dec would work fine....it certainly will for Nina who'll be away all/most that time and the end Nov/beg Dec is when others of us will be away too. You've really been doing a great job to date and as you say, there's plenty to 'sink in'. Hopefully, we'll all be back inspired;-) Sarah (needing to rush around now)-will look at the rest of yr message and a couple of others another time. ====== 16699 From: jaranoh Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 2:39am Subject: [dsg] Re: Practice on DSG, Q1a,b Hi James: Late welcome to the group from me. I don't think A. Somporn is the same person you have in mind. This A. Somporn, about 80, as Roberts suggested, is a Pali scholar who lives (mostly) in Thailand. I don't know if he speaks English. Best Regards, jaran --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., James Mitchell wrote: > > --- jaran jai-nhuknan wrote: > > Hi Chris, please see below. > > > > Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 20:48:13 -0000 > > From: "christine_forsyth" > > Subject: Practice on DSG > > > > Dear Group, > > > > I found the two posts about Roberts' meeting with > > Acharn Somporn very > > interesting, > > Is this Ajahn Somporn? The well-recognized meditation > teacher who is now the abbot of: > Wat Buddhamahamunee > Buddhist Meditation Center > 2501 Clover Lane > Arlington, TX 76015 > > I would be very interested to know. He was my > meditation teacher for four years and he has grown in > stature/fame since then. However, in Thai Buddhist > circles, things change very quickly. Thanks for any > information you may have. > > Metta, James > 16700 From: azita gill Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 3:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: PERFECTIONS --- kenhowardau wrote: > Thank you Christine, you really are a helpful > person. I > now have all those posts pasted into one document. > (Thanks also to Nina, by the way.) > Yes, the same goes for me to, Christine. And esp. since I asked the question in the first place. < may you have much courage, patience and good cheer, Azita, > 16701 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 4:32am Subject: [dsg] Re: to appreciate Buddhist goal of parinibbana1 --- > > -- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > Now, when we talk about awareness, we generally mean > vi~n~nana, the > > discernment of an object. But nama goes beyond vi~n~nana. Nama > includes > > nibbana, which perhaps is (inadequately) describable as awareness of > absence, > > absence of any and all separate conditions, and completely foreign to > > anything a worldling has experienced - so different, in fact, as to be > not > > even properly called a thing or an awareness of a thing, but > something > > totally "other". _______________ Dear Howard, As has being discussed before Nibbana is classified in the Abhidhamma as arupa (not rupa) and hence nama because all relaities are either nama or rupa. Nama has one meaning as bending and so because nibbana is experienced by magga and phala it 'bends' these cittas towards it. But to have any idea of nibbana as some sort of awareness is not suported by the texts:In the Khandhasamyutta nikaya. XXII. 94 (p949 of Bodhi trans.) The Buddha said :A corporeal phenomenon, a feeling, a perception, a mental formation, a consciousness, which is permanent and persistent, eternal and not subject to change, such a thing the wise men in this world do not recognize; and I also say that there is no such thing.{endquote] Nynatiloka says'One cannot too often and too emphatically stress the fact that not only for the actual realisation of the goal of Nibbana, but also for a theoretical understanding of it, it is an indispensable preliminary condition to grasp fully the truth of anatta, the egolessness and insubstantiality of all forms of existence. Without such an understanding, one will necessarily misconceive Nibbana - according to one's either materialistic or metaphysical leanings - either as annihilation of an ego, or an eternal state of existence into which an ego or self enters or with which it merges"endquote Robert 16702 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 8:58am Subject: Monks should not write to laypeople? --- Dear James, You write: "" I hold that monks should not teach or discuss > Dhamma on the Internet as self-identified monks. If they want to do > it as regular laypeople, and not state that they are monks, I don't > see a problem with that."" I do not think this is correct. While any monk may not wish to discuss dhamma others may. Many well-known monks have exchanged letters with laypeople and other monks; I read one from Ledi Sayadaw to C.A. F Rhys davids written about ninety years back. And others such as Narada thera (translator ) of several texts have also written letters on Dhamma to laypeople. The section you quote in the Vinya applies to face to face meeting not to letter writing. If it was the case that monks were not permitted to teach Dhamma by the written word if laypeople might read it, then monks such as Bhikkhu Bodhi - who has written letters about Dhamma via email and mail to several of us - would not be able to publish their books. I believe what is more important is that what is written by in accordance with the Dhamma. __________ You write :When a bhikkhu discusses Dhamma in an > Internet group with laypeople, on the same level as lay people, in > the same forum as laypeople, that is not right either. That bhikkhu > is cheapening his position as a bhikkhu to discuss the Dhamma as if > he is a layperson. A bhikkhu will get my respect as a bhikkhu if he > acts like one. If he doesn't, he is just another layperson to me"" ______ You know the sutta perhaps where the layman Citta is discussing Dhamma with seniormonks and explains a knotty point to them.He is thanked by the monks for his great understanding. The monks were not proud. Many monks listen to laypeople and discuss Dhamma with them to this day in Thailand. They will listen to Dhamma if it is explained corectly because they see its value. Robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., "James" wrote: > Explanation: 1. The Internet is a level-playing field where we are > lay people discussing the Dhamma, not seeking instruction. When a > member self-identifies as a bhikkhu, tells people how they should be > or think about Dhamma, declares that no one should disagree because > they aren't a bhikkhu, that is abuse of the position in the Sangha. > I don't respect that. 2. When a bhikkhu discusses Dhamma in an > Internet group with laypeople, on the same level as lay people, in > the same forum as laypeople, that is not right either. That bhikkhu > is cheapening his position as a bhikkhu to discuss the Dhamma as if > he is a layperson. A bhikkhu will get my respect as a bhikkhu if he > acts like one. If he doesn't, he is just another layperson to me. > 3. Bhikkhu's participating in Dhamma discussion on the Internet are > breaking several Bhikkhu precepts. The Buddha, in his infinite > wisdom, foresaw how situations like this might happen and he came up > with precepts as to how the Dhamma should be discussed and taught by > bhikkhu's. Here are the rules: > > 57. I will not teach Dhamma to a person with an umbrella in his hand > and who is not ill: a training to be observed. > 58. I will not teach Dhamma to a person with a staff in his hand and > who is not ill: a training to be observed. > 59. I will not teach Dhamma to a person with a knife in his hand and > who is not ill: a training to be observed. > 60. I will not teach Dhamma to a person with a weapon in his hand > and who is not ill: a training to be observed. > 61. [62] I will not teach Dhamma to a person wearing non-leather > [leather] footwear who is not ill: a training to be observed. > 63. I will not teach Dhamma to a person in a vehicle and who is not > ill: a training to be observed. > 64. I will not teach Dhamma to a person lying down who is not ill: a > training to be observed. > 65. I will not teach Dhamma to a person who sits holding up his > knees and who is not ill: a training to be observed. > 66. I will not teach Dhamma to a person wearing headgear who is not > ill: a training to be observed. > 67. I will not teach Dhamma to a person whose head is covered (with > a robe or scarf) and who is not ill: a training to be observed. > 68. Sitting on the ground, I will not teach Dhamma to a person > sitting on a seat who is not ill: a training to be observed. > 69. Sitting on a low seat, I will not teach Dhamma to a person > sitting on a high seat who is not ill: a training to be observed. > 70. Standing, I will not teach Dhamma to a person sitting who is not > ill: a training to be observed. > 71. Walking behind, I will not teach Dhamma to a person walking > ahead who is not ill: a training to be observed. > 72. Walking beside a path, I will not teach Dhamma to a person > walking on the path and who is not ill: a training to be observed. > > Now, how is a monk discussing or teaching Dhamma on the Internet > going to be able to follow these precepts? He isn't. He cannot see > the person, cannot check for their understanding or if they are of > the proper mind to listen to Dhamma, so he is breaking 15 very > important precepts. At my temple, the monks do not discuss Dhamma > on the Internet, and won't even discuss it on the telephone!! I > once forgot this and wrote an e-mail to a monk at my Buddhist > temple, asked him a question about Buddhism, and he refused to > answer by e-mail! He asked me to come see him. I have discussed > this issue with monks of the Thera and Mahayana tradition and they > all agree with me, monks should not discuss Dhamma on the Internet. > A person who wants Dhamma instruction from a monk, in discussion > rather than a book, needs to see that monk face-to-face. Otherwise, > the teaching is corrupt. > > > This is just my opinion and I could be wrong. I am not trying to > create controversy or `stir-things-up', just relating what I feel, > think, researched, and discussed with others. > Metta, James > 16703 From: Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 4:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: to appreciate Buddhist goal of parinibbana1 Hi, Robert - You and I are in agreement that Buddhism is not a species of substantialism. It seems to me, however, that you see Buddhism as a kind of nihilism inasmuch as you see its ultimate goal (paramattha) as absolute nothingness. You have asked me whether I see the khandhas, or at least vi~n~nana, as continuing after the death of an arahant. No, I don't think they do. But I don't think they exist for the living arahant either. The "experience" of an arahant is, I believe, *radically* different from that of a worldling, with the khandas constituting the worldling's world, but the arahant's experience already transcending that "world" (and all "worlds") and being indescribable because of being unconditioned and having no basis for being described. Now I would like to ask you whether you believe that the ultimate goal of Buddhism is an absolute nothingness. It seems to me that for every sutta portion that can be interpreted as saying that the ultimate goal of the Dhamma is a nothingness, there are other suttas that can be interpreted as saying that this is not so, though still, of course, avoiding the opposite extreme. Perhaps I tend towards the substantialist heresy. I think you tend towards the nihilist perspective. Does it not make sense, perhaps, for us to just agree to disagree on this matter? ;-) With metta, Howard In a message dated 11/5/02 7:33:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > > --- > > >-- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > > Now, when we talk about awareness, we generally mean > >vi~n~nana, the > >>discernment of an object. But nama goes beyond vi~n~nana. Nama > >includes > >>nibbana, which perhaps is (inadequately) describable as awareness > of > >absence, > >>absence of any and all separate conditions, and completely > foreign to > >>anything a worldling has experienced - so different, in fact, as > to be > >not > >>even properly called a thing or an awareness of a thing, but > >something > >>totally "other". > _______________ > > Dear Howard, > As has being discussed before Nibbana is classified in the Abhidhamma > as arupa (not rupa) and hence nama because all relaities are either > nama or rupa. Nama has one meaning as bending and so because nibbana > is experienced by magga and phala it 'bends' these cittas towards > it. > But to have any idea of nibbana as some sort of awareness is not > suported by the texts:In the Khandhasamyutta nikaya. XXII. 94 (p949 > of Bodhi trans.) > The Buddha said :A corporeal phenomenon, a feeling, a > perception, a mental > formation, a consciousness, which is permanent and persistent, > eternal and not subject to change, such a thing the wise men in > this world do not recognize; and I also say that there is no > such thing.{endquote] > > Nynatiloka says'One cannot too often and too > emphatically stress the fact that not > only for the actual realisation of the goal of Nibbana, but also > for a theoretical understanding of it, it is an indispensable > preliminary condition to grasp fully the truth of anatta, the > egolessness and insubstantiality of all forms of existence. > Without such an understanding, one will necessarily misconceive > Nibbana - according to one's either materialistic or > metaphysical leanings - either as > annihilation of an ego, or an eternal state of existence into > which an ego or self enters or with which it merges"endquote > > Robert > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16704 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 10:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] commentary break Dear Larry, how thoughtful of you. I will be away longer: Nov 26 until Dec 13. I was worried I would miss the thread, but I have the book. I like so much to read along part of the subco in Pali, the relevant passages, trying to translate parts of them, but of course I read slowly. See what is best to do. I will not have time to go to the archives later on. Nina. op 03-11-2002 21:13 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Dear Nina and all, > > I don't want anyone to miss out on the commentary while they are > visiting Thailand, so when should we take a break? 16705 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 10:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 20, Comm. bhikkhu Dear Larry and all, a lot to consider here about the word bhikkhu. From this text it is clear that also laypeople who develop satipatthana are in a sense bhikkhu. Why bhikkhu? When we think of bhkkhu: one of the meanings is, destroying lobha, dosa and moha. See Dispeller, Ch 12, on jhanas: Sekkho, trainer (ariyan who is not arahat) together with the kaliyana putthujjana, the worthy ordinary man, should be understood as bhikkhu. The arahat is aggo bhikkhu, the highest bhikkhu. From the beginning of the training there should be detachment, namely from wrong practice, wanting to *do* things. As Sarah said, < I would suggest that the 4 satipatthanas consist of all the actual phenomena in our lives. If there is an idea of doing’ rather than understanding’ these, then we’re bound to be on the wrong track. That’s why the emphasis is on sati and panna rather than on atta’(self).> and: Clinging is so tricky, so subtle, we may not notcie it that we are selecting objects just a little. I like the idea that sati and panna don’t mind at all what they know. Thus, right from the beginning we should see the danger of clinging. I read in the subco about bhikkhu, and I shall try to translate part of it later on. Nina. op 04-11-2002 01:55 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: Continuing the commentary on: "What are the four? Here, Bhikkhus a > bhikkhu lives contemplating the body in the body..." > > Katame cattaro = "What are the four?" This is a question indicating the > desire to expound the teaching. > Bhikkhu[15] is a term to indicate a person who earnestly endeavors to > accomplish the practice of the teaching. Others, gods and men, too, > certainly strive earnestly to accomplish the practice of the teaching, > but because of the excellence of the bhikkhu-state by way of practice, > the Master said: "Bhikkhu." For amongst those who accept the teaching of > the Buddha, the bhikkhu is the highest owing to fitness for receiving > manifold instruction. Further, when that highest kind of person, the > bhikkhu, is reckoned, the rest too are reckoned, as in regard to a royal > procession and the like, when the king is reckoned, by the reckoning of > the king, the retinue is reckoned. Also the word "bhikkhu" was used by > the Buddha to point out the bhikkhu-state through practice of the > teaching in this way: "He who practices this practice of the Arousing of > Mindfulness is called a bhikkhu." He who follows the teaching, be he a > shining one [deva] or a human, is indeed called a bhikkhu. Accordingly > it is said: 16706 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 11:39am Subject: Re: Practice on DSG, Q1a,b Hi Jaran (and Kom), Great to hear from you. :) I really appreciate your comments on right understanding and right practice. I'll think about your post for a while, and get back to you, if I may - I'm distracted a little at present dealing with a Great Dane with a ruptured cruciate ligament (knee surgery today). metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., jaran jai-nhuknan wrote: > Hi Chris, please see below. > > Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 20:48:13 -0000 > From: "christine_forsyth" > Subject: Practice on DSG > > Dear Group, > > I found the two posts about Roberts' meeting with Acharn Somporn very > interesting, but I have a few questions about death and practice and > hope someone may have the time and inclination to comment on them ... > > > From the first post :Meeting with Acharn somporn" > "He said that reading the texts is one aspect but only by understanding > sabhava -realities - directly can there be proper understanding. > Everything is dhamma , whether it be seeing or hearing, colour or > sound, hardness, heat, even avijja (ignorance) is dhamma. There is no > one,no being there at all but because of wrong view the > characteristics (lakkhana ) which are simply conditioned dhamma are > taken as self. This is very deep and subtle sakkya ditthi shows > itself by clinging to wrong practice. > He said if there is real understanding of sabhava dhamma then there > is no fear of death because there is no self in sabhava." > > Question 1. (a) I wonder if anyone could clarify for me how 'right > practice' would occur in the everyday life of a buddhist today? > (b) or more exactly, how 'wrong practice' in everyday > life of a buddhist today would be defined? > ---------------------------------- > > I enjoyed the posts as well. Roberts always has interesting points to share > with us. > > Regarding the question above, it is an important question. I am sure many > have addressed this very point many times although it may not have been in > the way that answers your question directly. Before answering your question, > let me tell you my view of 'right practice'. > > Right understanding encompasses right practice. IMHO, there is only one > practice in Buddhism, and it is a noun, practice. Practice refers to the > development of right understanding, meaning the growth of right > understanding, not the making or improvement. :-) This is because right > understanding is a dhamma; it arises due to conditions, falls away > immediately, contains its own characteristics, and cannot be controlled. > This is why it cannot be 'developed' (by us). > > The right practice of a Buddhist today is the same as that of those in the > Buddha's time since the right understanding is always right understanding > (although of many levels). However, what makes today different from the > Buddha's time is the degree of wrong-view and other akusala dhammas. > According to the Tipitaka and from my observations, we are full of, and > affected by, more akusala dhammas than kusala dhammas. We have been > influenced by the enemies of right understanding for a long time. Let's take > this life as an example, we have been working hard for happiness, wealth, > recognition, achievements all our life because wrong-view tell us there is > 'Self'. As you know, the idea of Self is due to three things: wrong- view, > attachment and conceit, and the idea of Self can be so subtle what we cannot > 'feel' it or it can be very apparent. We don't have to think that there is a > 'Self'-- it's automatic. As automatic as we see when we open our eyes, when > we wake up, there is already idea of Self, how subtle it may be. > > Then we learned that people, things, concept are synthesized in our head due > to ignorance, attachment and anger. Furthermore, everything around us is > dhamma with anicca, dhukka and anatta quality. (we can be specific about > anatta here, but let's leave it for the future discussion). > > Soon we learn that the 'Self' is due to, among other things, wrong- view, an > akusala dhamma, a very bad thing. This is one degree of right > understanding--listening and perhaps contemplating. Now because we love our > Self and we want to be good and happy, we have to "do something" to get rid > of Self and wrong-view. Automatically, being influenced by the enemies of > right understanding, we have to be as successful as we are in the worldlies, > so we set out to find a way. As you can see, this is under influence of > "Self", but many of us don't know it or don't have enough courage to admit > it. > > As you can see, the right understanding in one level does not easily > translate to another (higher) level of understanding. We read all about the > 'concept' of dhamma and understand most of it. However, when we come back to > the 'world' in stead of sticking to we leave our understanding in the books > we read (in our case, in the emails :-), we often go back to our 'usual': > the influence of the enemies of right understanding--often lobha, > attachment. With the attachment to Self, we go after kusala dhamma, metta, > sati, panna, insights, vipassana nana, and even Nibbana, and we can't help > feeling sorry (or guilty) when akusala dhamma arise. Often we tell ourselves > (or Self) that we do it for the higher level of understanding, but what we > fail to realize (or admit) is that we are going after good kusala dhamma and > running away from akusala dhamma because of the idea of 'Self'. > > This is often because we are not being very 'honest' (to ourselves or just > for the sake of dhamma). This is where tattaramajjhatattaa (one of general > wholesome cetasikas) comes in. Until we are brave enough to accept any > dhamma arising for us to study, until we are brave enough to study the > quality of Self when we feel we have to do something for higher level of > understanding, until we are brave enough to stick to what we study and > understand in the book, and until we are brave enough to reason everything > we read, listen, learn, observe, it is hard for the 'right practice' to grow > or even arise. > > To me, facing the idea of 'Self' in daily life seems the hardest thing, and > most critical, of the whole study. > > If you ask Sarah this question, I am sure she would say ''right practice' is > anything that is based on 'right understanding.'' > > This is probably because you cannot put your finger on the 'right practice' > since it is the quality of mind not visible to the eye as A Sujin once said > that 'by looking, you cannot tell a person to whom satipatthana has arisen > from others because noone knows his mind'. > > This stresses the importance of being very honest to oneself, since no one > knows the quality his mind better than himself. We can fool someone else but > not ourselves. > > I am digressing. Now that you know what my 'right practice' is, let's try to > answer your question. Simply put, 'right practice' occurs in daily life that > same way that lobha and other dhammas do--when there are conditions for > it....so natural. And the prominent condition is probably right > understanding. > > Based on the same principles, the 'wrong practice' can be simply defined as > anything that is 'done' based on the idea of Self (due to attachment, wrong > view, conceit as well as other akusala dhamma) whether one realizes it or > not. Who can tell if it's right practice or a wrong one? Nobody knows that > better than ourselves. > > Please note that I think that 'right practice' includes more than > satipatthana (we have to ask Nina, Roberts K, Kom, Num, Jon and others I > don't remember the names, sorry) according to AN8,2 (panna sutta), among > others. > > Chris, may I say I always enjoy your posts. I wish I could be half as > articulate as you are. > > With appreciation, > Jaran > > 16707 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 11:46am Subject: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation" Hi James, I hadn't heard these rules before. If we all get webcams would that be acceptable? Then any Bhikkhu could see that I don't have an umbrella, staff, knife, or weapon in my hand. I have no shoes on, I'm not in a vehicle, I'm not lying down, not sitting holding up my knees and not wearing head gear. I would be happy to sit, stand or walk as directed to obtain Dhamma teachings. I am sure, though they sound very odd, that there must be a good reasons behind these rules. I have never met with or spoken to a Bhikkhu personally - and the last time I met another Buddhist was when the dsg members got together at Noosa three months ago. But I have had a few private emails from members of the Sangha that were invaluable in helping me understand the Dhamma. Email and the internet is the only avenue I have for contact, and having the Dhamma explained. Appreciate the opportunities you have ... metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "James" wrote: The Buddha, in his infinite > wisdom, foresaw how situations like this might happen and he came up > with precepts as to how the Dhamma should be discussed and taught by > bhikkhu's. Here are the rules: > > 57. I will not teach Dhamma to a person with an umbrella in his hand > and who is not ill: a training to be observed. > 58. I will not teach Dhamma to a person with a staff in his hand and > who is not ill: a training to be observed. > 59. I will not teach Dhamma to a person with a knife in his hand and > who is not ill: a training to be observed. > 60. I will not teach Dhamma to a person with a weapon in his hand > and who is not ill: a training to be observed. > 61. [62] I will not teach Dhamma to a person wearing non-leather > [leather] footwear who is not ill: a training to be observed. > 63. I will not teach Dhamma to a person in a vehicle and who is not > ill: a training to be observed. > 64. I will not teach Dhamma to a person lying down who is not ill: a > training to be observed. > 65. I will not teach Dhamma to a person who sits holding up his > knees and who is not ill: a training to be observed. > 66. I will not teach Dhamma to a person wearing headgear who is not > ill: a training to be observed. > 67. I will not teach Dhamma to a person whose head is covered (with > a robe or scarf) and who is not ill: a training to be observed. > 68. Sitting on the ground, I will not teach Dhamma to a person > sitting on a seat who is not ill: a training to be observed. > 69. Sitting on a low seat, I will not teach Dhamma to a person > sitting on a high seat who is not ill: a training to be observed. > 70. Standing, I will not teach Dhamma to a person sitting who is not > ill: a training to be observed. > 71. Walking behind, I will not teach Dhamma to a person walking > ahead who is not ill: a training to be observed. > 72. Walking beside a path, I will not teach Dhamma to a person > walking on the path and who is not ill: a training to be observed. > 16708 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 11:50am Subject: [dsg] Re: to appreciate Buddhist goal of parinibbana1 Hi Howard and Robert, and All, It is so important, in one way, to have an accurate idea - even if vague - of what Nibanna is and is not. From the beginning of my learning about Buddhism, I have felt an uneasiness which could best be described by the question "Where/what is all this leading to ?" Sometimes I read posts from people discussing the finer details of what they are currently doing, and they seem like a horse wearing 'blinkers' to prevent distraction from anything except the task right in front of their noses - mostly formal practice of some kind. We are told that The eightfold Path (if followed) leads to the end of suffering and dissatisfaction. But it is natural, having come from a theistic religion that is quite definite and graphically descriptive about it's Ulimate Goal, that many would wonder about the state, condition, experience of the Ultimate Goal in Buddhism. One has to know a little of the Ultimate Goal - else how would one know that it is 'safe' to aim for? One wonders about Lemmings ... what are they thinking as they rush towards the edge of the cliff? Is the one out in front shouting: "Don't ask questions, chaps, there are no words to describe what's going to happen to us, only put all your energy into getting there. We're never going to agree, so cut the chatter. Just keep running." :) metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > You and I are in agreement that Buddhism is not a species of > substantialism. It seems to me, however, that you see Buddhism as a kind of > nihilism inasmuch as you see its ultimate goal (paramattha) as absolute > nothingness. > You have asked me whether I see the khandhas, or at least vi~n~nana, > as continuing after the death of an arahant. No, I don't think they do. But I > don't think they exist for the living arahant either. The "experience" of an > arahant is, I believe, *radically* different from that of a worldling, with > the khandas constituting the worldling's world, but the arahant's experience > already transcending that "world" (and all "worlds") and being indescribable > because of being unconditioned and having no basis for being described. Now I > would like to ask you whether you believe that the ultimate goal of Buddhism > is an absolute nothingness. > It seems to me that for every sutta portion that can be interpreted as > saying that the ultimate goal of the Dhamma is a nothingness, there are other > suttas that can be interpreted as saying that this is not so, though still, > of course, avoiding the opposite extreme. Perhaps I tend towards the > substantialist heresy. I think you tend towards the nihilist perspective. > Does it not make sense, perhaps, for us to just agree to disagree on this > matter? ;-) > > With metta, > Howard > > In a message dated 11/5/02 7:33:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... > writes: > > > > > --- > > > >-- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > > > Now, when we talk about awareness, we generally mean > > >vi~n~nana, the > > >>discernment of an object. But nama goes beyond vi~n~nana. Nama > > >includes > > >>nibbana, which perhaps is (inadequately) describable as awareness > > of > > >absence, > > >>absence of any and all separate conditions, and completely > > foreign to > > >>anything a worldling has experienced - so different, in fact, as > > to be > > >not > > >>even properly called a thing or an awareness of a thing, but > > >something > > >>totally "other". > > _______________ > > > > Dear Howard, > > As has being discussed before Nibbana is classified in the Abhidhamma > > as arupa (not rupa) and hence nama because all relaities are either > > nama or rupa. Nama has one meaning as bending and so because nibbana > > is experienced by magga and phala it 'bends' these cittas towards > > it. > > But to have any idea of nibbana as some sort of awareness is not > > suported by the texts:In the Khandhasamyutta nikaya. XXII. 94 (p949 > > of Bodhi trans.) > > The Buddha said :A corporeal phenomenon, a feeling, a > > perception, a mental > > formation, a consciousness, which is permanent and persistent, > > eternal and not subject to change, such a thing the wise men in > > this world do not recognize; and I also say that there is no > > such thing.{endquote] > > > > Nynatiloka says'One cannot too often and too > > emphatically stress the fact that not > > only for the actual realisation of the goal of Nibbana, but also > > for a theoretical understanding of it, it is an indispensable > > preliminary condition to grasp fully the truth of anatta, the > > egolessness and insubstantiality of all forms of existence. > > Without such an understanding, one will necessarily misconceive > > Nibbana - according to one's either materialistic or > > metaphysical leanings - either as > > annihilation of an ego, or an eternal state of existence into > > which an ego or self enters or with which it merges"endquote > > > > Robert 16709 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 2:15pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sabbe dhammaa anattaa: To KKT Dear Suan, --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "abhidhammika" wrote: Dear KKT You wrote the following. "...since one meaning of atta is that something << exists by itself >> and is << independent >> of other things." I wonder if you could post those meanings of atta in Pali or Sanskrit when you have spare time. I will like to check them side by side with the meanings of nibbana in that Udaana passage. Thanking in advance. With kind regards Suan KKT: I think there are two main meanings of atta or self: __The empirical self: This is the ego or the << feeling of I, Me, Mine, Myself >> or the << I-thought >> This << self >> was categorically denied by the Buddha in His 2nd sermon i.e. Anattalakkhana Sutta and in many other suttas by this famous phrase: << This is not mine, this I am not, this is not myself >> (*) __The metaphysical self: In the historical context of the Buddha's time, this is the Atman/Brahman of orthodox Brahmanism or the Jiva (life principle) of Jainism (another unorthodox system like Buddhism) It seems that the Buddha didn't give a definite answer when being asked about this << self >> as in this sutta: Vacchagotta comes to the Buddha and asks: 'Venerable Gotama, is there an Atman?' The Buddha is silent. 'Then Venarable Gotama, is there no Atman?' Again the Buddha is silent. Vacchagotta gets up and goes away. (Samyutta Nykaya) I think just because of the silence of the Buddha that after Buddha's Parinibbana people began to speculate alot about this << fundamental >> question. (and a quite exciting question :-)) As for your request, I've found a list of some << attributes >> of Braman/Atman in Sanskrit but they are not complete (I am not expert in Sanskrit) pure existence = sat pure consciousness = cit pure bliss = ananda truth = satyam knowledge = jnanam goodness = shivam beauty = sundaram omnipotent = infinite = anantam unborn = ajo uncreated = uncompounded = self-existent = immanent in all beings (and things) = sarva-sattva-dehantar-gata immortal = nitya eternal = shasvata permanent = dhruva BTW, in the Milindapanho, Nibbana is described as: << pure bliss >> << cannot be elucidated by means of any simile, explanation, reason, or inference >> << is not past, not future, not present, not produced, not unproduced, not producible >> << is not in storage somewhere >> << is not due to kamma, causes, climatic changes >> Hope this helps. Peace, KKT (*) In the Maitreya Upanishads there is a similar phrase: Borne along and defiled by the stream of qualities, unsteady, wavering, bewildered, full of desire, distracted, one goes on into the state of self-conceit. In thinking, "This is I" and "That is mine" one binds himself with himself, as does a bird with a snare. ============== --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "phamdluan2000" wrote: Dear Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: Hi, Rahula - Any interpretation which views nibbana as atta is, I believe, heretical, and the Dhammakaya Buddhist Meditation Institute's taking that position causes me to wonder about that organization. The Buddha's teachings are generally quite precise, and his using 'sankhara' twice, once with 'anicca' and once with 'dukkha', but then changing to 'dhamma' with regard to 'anatta' is quite unlikely to be unintentional. With metta, Howard KKT: A definition of Nibbana from the Udana: O bhikkhus, there is the unborn, ungrown, and unconditioned. Were there not the unborn, ungrown, and unconditioned, there would be no escape for the born, grown, and conditioned. Since there is the unborn, ungrown, and unconditioned, so there is escape for the born, grown, and conditioned. This definition could easily lead one to think that Nibbana is atta since one meaning of atta is that something << exists by itself >> and is << independent >> of other things. If Nibbana is << unborn, ungrown, and unconditioned >> then isn't Nibbana << existing by itself >> and << independent >> of everything? I raise this question not because I want to defend the atta doctrine but because I want to show that this matter is not easily to clinch. Peace, KKT 16710 From: Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 4:22pm Subject: Way 21, Comm. "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html Commentary continued on "Here, Bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating the body in the body..." Kayanupassi = "Contemplating the body." Possessed of the character of body-contemplation, or of observing the body. Why is the word "body" used twice in the phrase: "Contemplating the body in the body?" For determining the object and isolating it, and for the sifting out thoroughly [vinibbhoga] of the apparently compact [ghana] nature of things like continuity [santati]. Because there is no contemplating of feeling, consciousness nor mental objects in the body, but just the contemplating of the body only, determination through isolation is set forth by the pointing out of the way of contemplating the body only in the property called the body. In the body there is no contemplation of a uniform thing, apart from the big and small members of the body, or of a man, or of a woman, apart from such things like the hair of the head and the hair of the body. There can be nothing apart from the qualities of primary and derived materiality, in a body. Indeed the character of contemplating the collection of the major and the minor corporeal members, is like the seeing of the constituents of a cart. The character of contemplating the collection of the hair of the head, the hair of the body and the like is comparable to the seeing of the component parts of a city; and the character of contemplating the collection of primary and derived materiality is comparable to the separation of the leaf covering of a plantain-trunk, or is like the opening of an empty fist. Therefore, by the pointing out of the basis called the body in the form of a collection in many ways, the sifting out thoroughly of the apparently compact is shown. 16711 From: Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 5:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 21, Comm. "There can be nothing apart from the qualities of primary and derived materiality, in a body." Hi all, Anyone know what primary and derived materiality is? Also, I was wondering about the word "anupassanaa". Is the meaning something like 'minutely observing'? Larry 16712 From: James Mitchell Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 10:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation" --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hi James, > > I hadn't heard these rules before. If we all get > webcams would that > be acceptable? Then any Bhikkhu could see that I > don't have an > umbrella, staff, knife, or weapon in my hand. I > have no shoes on, > I'm not in a vehicle, I'm not lying down, not > sitting holding up my > knees and not wearing head gear. I would be happy > to sit, stand or > walk as directed to obtain Dhamma teachings. (Christine, if you were willing to go to that extent to observe the bhikkhu rules, then of course a monk could teach the dhamma to you over the Internet. I am not sure if you are mocking these rules or not, probably not, but they do serve a very valuable purpose. A person must be in the right frame-of-mind to properly receive the dhamma. As the Buddha said, ""This Dhamma that I have attained is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, peaceful, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise." If a person is walking with an umbrella, or even walking a path, or driving, or has his shoes on (ready to go somewhere else), or has a walking stick (again, going somewhere), or has a knife or weapon in his hand (obviously not ready for dhamma teaching), or lying down relaxing, or holding the knees in a relaxing state of mind, or is wearing a hat or > I am sure, though they sound very odd, that there > must be a good > reasons behind these rules. > I have never met with or spoken to a Bhikkhu > personally - and the > last time I met another Buddhist was when the dsg > members got > together at Noosa three months ago. But I have had > a few private > emails from members of the Sangha that were > invaluable in helping me > understand the Dhamma. > Email and the internet is the only avenue I have for > contact, and > having the Dhamma explained. > Appreciate the opportunities you have ... > > metta, > Christine > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "James" > wrote: > The Buddha, in his infinite > > wisdom, foresaw how situations like this might > happen and he came > up > > with precepts as to how the Dhamma should be > discussed and taught > by > > bhikkhu's. Here are the rules: > > > > 57. I will not teach Dhamma to a person with an > umbrella in his > hand > > and who is not ill: a training to be observed. > > 58. I will not teach Dhamma to a person with a > staff in his hand > and > > who is not ill: a training to be observed. > > 59. I will not teach Dhamma to a person with a > knife in his hand > and > > who is not ill: a training to be observed. > > 60. I will not teach Dhamma to a person with a > weapon in his hand > > and who is not ill: a training to be observed. > > 61. [62] I will not teach Dhamma to a person > wearing non-leather > > [leather] footwear who is not ill: a training to > be observed. > > 63. I will not teach Dhamma to a person in a > vehicle and who is not > > ill: a training to be observed. > > 64. I will not teach Dhamma to a person lying down > who is not ill: > a > > training to be observed. > > 65. I will not teach Dhamma to a person who sits > holding up his > > knees and who is not ill: a training to be > observed. > > 66. I will not teach Dhamma to a person wearing > headgear who is not > > ill: a training to be observed. > > 67. I will not teach Dhamma to a person whose head > is covered (with > > a robe or scarf) and who is not ill: a training to > be observed. > > 68. Sitting on the ground, I will not teach Dhamma > to a person > > sitting on a seat who is not ill: a training to be > observed. > > 69. Sitting on a low seat, I will not teach Dhamma > to a person > > sitting on a high seat who is not ill: a training > to be observed. > > 70. Standing, I will not teach Dhamma to a person > sitting who is > not > > ill: a training to be observed. > > 71. Walking behind, I will not teach Dhamma to a > person walking > > ahead who is not ill: a training to be observed. > > 72. Walking beside a path, I will not teach Dhamma > to a person > > walking on the path and who is not ill: a training > to be observed. > > > ===== Two men look out the same prison bars; one sees mud and the other stars. ~ Frederick Langbridge ~ 16713 From: James Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 10:38pm Subject: Re: Monks should not write to laypeople? --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- > Dear James, > You write: > "" I hold that monks should not teach or discuss > > Dhamma on the Internet as self-identified monks. If they want to > do > > it as regular laypeople, and not state that they are monks, I don't > > see a problem with that."" > > I do not think this is correct. While any monk may not wish to > discuss dhamma others may. > Many well-known monks have exchanged letters with laypeople and other > monks; I read one from Ledi Sayadaw to C.A. F Rhys davids written > about ninety years back. And others such as Narada thera > (translator ) of several texts have also written letters on Dhamma to > laypeople. The section you quote in the Vinya applies to face to face > meeting not to letter writing.\ (Robert, with all due respect, you are making an > assertion here that is completely not true and > unfounded. The section that I quoted from the > Vinaya > Pitaka relates to ALL Dhamma teaching by monks. > There > aren't any rules in the VP about teaching the Dhamma > through letter writing. Obviously, the Buddha did > not > want his monks to do such a thing. He wanted his > teachings to be taught by monks face-to-face.) > If it was the case that monks were not permitted to teach Dhamma by > the written word if laypeople might read it, then monks such as > Bhikkhu Bodhi - who has written letters about Dhamma via email and > mail to several of us - would not be able to publish their books. > I believe what is more important is that what is written by in > accordance with the Dhamma. (I do not believe that monks should write about > Dhamma > with the goal of teaching it. That is not their > 'duty' as a monk. The duties of a monk, following > how > I interpret the Buddha's guidelines, are: First: > Self-Liberation; Second: Teaching and finding other > monks; Third: Maintaining the Sangha; Fourth: > Teaching > Dhamma to interested lay people. > > I am not going to respond to any monks in > particular. > I know that many famous monks write letters and > books, > go on lecture tours, and discuss the Dhamma on the > Internet. I don't agree with any of that. I refuse > to buy books written by monks (even the Dali Lama) > and > usually won't read articles written by monks unless > someone refers to them in this group or they are > acutally transcriptions of verbal Dhamma teachings > presented to an interested audience. > > But this is just me and doesn't have to match > everyone > else.) > > __________ > You write :When a bhikkhu discusses Dhamma in an > > Internet group with laypeople, on the same level as lay people, in > > the same forum as laypeople, that is not right either. That > bhikkhu > > is cheapening his position as a bhikkhu to discuss the Dhamma as if > > he is a layperson. A bhikkhu will get my respect as a bhikkhu if > he > > acts like one. If he doesn't, he is just another layperson to me"" > ______ > You know the sutta perhaps where the layman Citta is discussing > Dhamma with seniormonks and explains a knotty point to them.He is > thanked by the monks for his great understanding. The monks were not > proud. Many monks listen to laypeople and discuss Dhamma with them to > this day in Thailand. They will listen to Dhamma if it is explained > corectly because they see its value. (Frankly, I don't see how a layperson has much to > offer to a monk in the way of Dhamma instruction; > unless that monk isn't really a 'monk' if you know > what I mean. Monks shouldn't need to discuss Dhamma > with most laypeople to learn it (of course, there > are > a few exceptions of dynamic, insighful, wise > laypeople > who monks could learn from). If monks need to go to > laypeople to learn Dhamma, there is really something > wrong with the Sangha in that case. When I meet a > monk and discuss Dhamma with him, I know that I am > doing it to learn, not to teach. I haven't even > renounced as much as a monk, been trained as much as > a > monk, or have the same dedication to Dhamma that a > monk has. And I am not sure about your > generalization > about laypeople and monks in Thailand. From my > experience, that is not true. Laypeople in Thailand > would never, ever presume to tell a monk about > Dhamma. > The laypeople in Thailand have a level of respect > and > deference for monks that I have never seen anywhere > in > the world. I have been to Thailand twice, visited > many temples, attend an American/Thai Wat now, so I > think I have some experience on which to base these > comments. But, then again, maybe the quality of the > Sangha has gone down in Thailand. If monks and > laypeople discuss Dhamma on an even-level, than it > definitely has.) Metta, James > > Robert > > 16714 From: James Mitchell Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 10:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation" Sorry, my e-mail is not cooperating with me today. Here is the complete message I intended to send. Sorry for the odd spacing. > > --- christine_forsyth > wrote: > > > Hi James, > > > I hadn't heard these rules before. If we all > get > > > webcams would that > > > be acceptable? Then any Bhikkhu could see that > I > > > don't have an > > > umbrella, staff, knife, or weapon in my hand. > I > > > have no shoes on, > > > I'm not in a vehicle, I'm not lying down, not > > > sitting holding up my > > > knees and not wearing head gear. I would be > happy > > > to sit, stand or > > > walk as directed to obtain Dhamma teachings. > > > > (Christine, if you were willing to go to that > extent > > to observe the bhikkhu rules, then of course a > monk > > could teach the dhamma to you over the Internet. > I > > am > > not sure if you are mocking these rules or not, > > probably not, but they do serve a very valuable > > purpose. A person must be in the right > > frame-of-mind > > to properly receive the dhamma. As the Buddha > said, > > ""This Dhamma that I have attained is deep, hard > to > > see, hard to realize, peaceful, refined, beyond > the > > scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by > > the > > wise." If a person is walking with an umbrella, > or > > even walking a path, or driving, or has his shoes > on > > (ready to go somewhere else), or has a walking > stick > > (again, going somewhere), or has a knife or weapon > > in > > his hand (obviously not ready for dhamma > teaching), > > or > > lying down relaxing, or holding the knees in a > > relaxing pose, or is wearing a hat or headgear > > (again, > > going somewhere), or sitting in a chair relaxing, > or > > sitting higher than a monk, than that person is > not > > ready to receive the teachings of the dhamma. The > > Dhamma is a very serious business and should not > be > > taken lightly. Whenever I read the dhamma or > > discuss > > the dhamma, I make sure that I am not lying down, > > that > > my shoes are off, that I am not planning on going > > anywhere else, that I am alert...and I have even > > added > > some of my own rules to this list that the Buddha > > didn't require: I make sure that my hands are > clean, > > that my face is clean, and that I am not eating > > anything (drinking water is acceptable). I won't > > even > > meditate unless I have washed my face and hands. > I > > believe that the body must be clean when receiving > > the > > dhamma or it is disrespectful to the Triple Gem. > > And > > eating food is a big no-no. If I eat, I eat. If > I > > study the dhamma, I study the dhamma. I don't do > > both.) > > > I am sure, though they sound very odd, that > there > > > must be a good > > > reasons behind these rules. > > (I think I have explained some. But it is just my > > interpretation. I don't know all of the reasons > > behind the rules.) > > > I have never met with or spoken to a Bhikkhu > > > personally - and the > > > last time I met another Buddhist was when the > dsg > > > members got > > > together at Noosa three months ago. But I have > > had > > > a few private > > > emails from members of the Sangha that were > > > invaluable in helping me > > > understand the Dhamma. > > (I will not comment on the monk writing to you. I > > really don't know all of the ins and outs about > > that. > > But I do know one thing: Christine, it is your > karma > > to be in a situation where you must learn the > Dhamma > > on your own. You have this situation in your life > > now > > for a reason. I would lightly suggest that you > not > > begrudge it or hope that things were different for > > you. Though it may seem difficult at times, later > > you > > will probably see the wisdom of it. You will rise > > like a Phoenix from the ashes of your solitary > > struggles; which I think you have already > actually. > > I > > see you streaking across the sky, with a trail of > > Dhamma fire, and I have little sympathy for > > you...maybe some envy but not sympathy. > > > > No Dhamma is better than corrupt Dhamma. The > Buddha > > came up with these rules for a reason. If a > person, > > lay or monk, takes refuge in the Triple Gem, they > > must > > accept the whole enchilada. It isn't a 'pick and > > choose' kinda thing for those who accept The > Triple > > Gem into their hearts and minds.) > > > Email and the internet is the only avenue I have > > for > > > contact, and > > > having the Dhamma explained. > > (No, you have your mind and your heart. Even if > you > > had absolutely nothing, no e-mail, no books, no > > suttas, no contacts, nothing! When you are ready, > > the > > Dhamma will find you and teach you. In Taoism, it > > is > > said, "When the heart is ready the teacher will > > come." > > I believe that very much. And I also believe > that > > often the teacher is oneself. > > > Appreciate the opportunities you have ... > > (Accept the karma you have.) > > > > > > metta, > > > Christine > > > > Metta, James ===== Two men look out the same prison bars; one sees mud and the other stars. ~ Frederick Langbridge ~ 16715 From: Sarah Date: Wed Nov 6, 2002 1:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Monks should not write to laypeople? Hi James & Rob K, Just a few considerations only to add to your comments: 1. The reason for the particular rules which James mentioned (below) were to emphasise the importance of respect for the dhamma and sangha. For example, soldiers may have weapons on their bodies, but not in their hands, as this shows no hostility. With regard to footwear and head gear, there is the same consideration - there’s no use teaching to those who are obviously showing disrespect for the Teachings. 2. Without wishing to downplay the importance of these or any other rules, I wish to point out that these fall under the category of ‘sekhiya’ or duties/traditions. They concern the traditions about a)entering towns and villages, b) accepting almsfood and eating meals c) not teaching dhamma to disrespectful people and d) the manner of urinating and stooling. Unlike other rules, these are training rules for which there is no penalty (aapatti) for transgression. It just says “this training should be done”.If a monk is careless and doesn’t follow these traditions, it is considered a dukka.ta (light offence). 3. This classification of ‘sekhiya’ is in marked contrast to other rules. Those which concern false or abusive speech (inc. sarcasm and ridicule) for example, fall under “Paacittiya” which means the breaking of precept which causes the loss of kusala (wholesome states) and is aapatti, for which there is a penalty. I would question James’ assertion that there is nothing wrong with a monk using a cybername which suggests he is other than a monk. From Vinaymukha vol 1, “ ‘Sampajaanamusaavaada’ means to utter false speech with full awareness. It should be understood in this way: There exists a certain matter but the speaker with intention utters words divrging from the truth about it, or makes gestures with the same intention, so that the other person there understands something differing from the truth. Physical actions, such as writing a letter which conveys falsehood are as complete (a breakage of the training rule) as verbal communication and are counted in this training-rule also.” One member on DSG sometime back changed from using a cyber name to using a real name because of concern about this very point. 4. Other examples of the importance of respect by lay-followers if attending activities with monks include (in the Cullavagga from the vinaya) the points or rules by which a lay-follower cannot eat with the bhikkhus. These include, for example, abuse of monks, dispraise of the buddha or the Sangha and so on. In thee cases, his bowl is turned upside down which is another way of being moderated;-) 5. Far more serious, as I understand it, than the above examples as far as a monk is concerned would be the explaining of “non-dhamma as dhamma” and the explaining of “dhamma as non-dhamma”, “non-discipline as discipline” and “discipline as non-discipline”. These are explained in the cullavagga to lead to dissension and schism in the Order. “Now, Upaali, having split an Order that was harmonious, he sets up demerit that endures for an aeon and he is boiled in hell for an aeon.” 6. I don’t recall reading anything in the rules or the vinaya to suggest a monk cannot listen to dhamma from a lay person, participate in a dhamma discussion or instruct by the written word, assuming there is no apparent (and I’d like to stress the apparent or obvious rather than possible) lack of respect on the part of the addressee. I’d be glad to be given references or quotes with any suggestions to the contrary. Again, I believe the emphasis should be on respect for the Triple Gem. 7. I agree that the use of internet by a monk is a potential minefield. Perhaps the same could be said about living in a city wat or any other activity/situation. Indeed this is why there are strict rules, confessions, penalties and so on, none of which we, as lay people, are responsible for implementing. As I suggested in my initial post, I think we can all learn from the examples in the vinaya about apects and Teachings which reveal shortcomings in our own practice or observance of the Teachings. Sarah ====== Here are the rules (given by James): 57. I will not teach Dhamma to a person with an umbrella in his hand and who is not ill: a training to be observed. 58. I will not teach Dhamma to a person with a staff in his hand and who is not ill: a training to be observed. 59. I will not teach Dhamma to a person with a knife in his hand and who is not ill: a training to be observed. 60. I will not teach Dhamma to a person with a weapon in his hand and who is not ill: a training to be observed. 61. [62] I will not teach Dhamma to a person wearing non-leather [leather] footwear who is not ill: a training to be observed. 63. I will not teach Dhamma to a person in a vehicle and who is not ill: a training to be observed. 64. I will not teach Dhamma to a person lying down who is not ill: a training to be observed. 65. I will not teach Dhamma to a person who sits holding up his knees and who is not ill: a training to be observed. 66. I will not teach Dhamma to a person wearing headgear who is not ill: a training to be observed. 67. I will not teach Dhamma to a person whose head is covered (with a robe or scarf) and who is not ill: a training to be observed. 68. Sitting on the ground, I will not teach Dhamma to a person sitting on a seat who is not ill: a training to be observed. 69. Sitting on a low seat, I will not teach Dhamma to a person sitting on a high seat who is not ill: a training to be observed. 70. Standing, I will not teach Dhamma to a person sitting who is not ill: a training to be observed. 71. Walking behind, I will not teach Dhamma to a person walking ahead who is not ill: a training to be observed. 72. Walking beside a path, I will not teach Dhamma to a person walking on the path and who is not ill: a training to be observed. 16716 From: James Date: Wed Nov 6, 2002 2:27am Subject: [dsg] Re: Monks should not write to laypeople? Dear Sarah, This is a very impressive post! The wealth of information/knowledge you have on this subject is quite extensive. As I stated, the reasons I gave for the bhikkhu rules are from my own interpretations and reasoning. However, you seem to have access to information I have not encountered. Would you mind giving the sources you have researched for the information you detail here? I would like to read them as well since I believe they would be of great benefit to my overall Dhamma understanding. Like the TV commercial that has the actor stating, "I may not be a doctor, but I play one on TV", then I can say, "I may not be a monk, but I play one on the Internet" :-) J/K You write regarding a position of mine: I would question James' assertion that there is nothing wrong with a monk using a cyber name which suggests he is other than a monk. From Vinaymukha vol 1, " `Sampajaanamusaavaada' means to utter false speech with full awareness. It should be understood in this way: There exists a certain matter but the speaker with intention utters words divrging from the truth about it, or makes gestures with the same intention, so that the other person there understands something differing from the truth. Physical actions, such as writing a letter which conveys falsehood are as complete (a breakage of the training rule) as verbal communication and are counted in this training-rule also." I am not sure what you mean by you would `question' my assertion. Does this mean you would disagree, are not sure, or couldn't care less? I am going to assume that this means you disagree but are being nice about it. If my assumption is wrong, I apologize. (See how easily things are confused/misunderstood with the written medium? When communicating face-to-face, there is the opportunity to check for understanding many times.) In my opinion, a monk or layperson, using a cyber-identity on the Internet, is not lying or deceiving. The Internet doesn't require anyone to give personal information, reveal personal details of lifestyle, or state physical location. The Internet is a face-less, name-less, position-less, socio-economic-less, degree-less, etc., means of communication. Actually the Internet is very Anatta in this regard. A monk doesn't have to state that he is a monk, where he lives, his real name, his age, anything. These are the accepted rules and standards of the Internet and they apply to everyone, monk or layperson. If a monk wants to participate in Dhamma discussion on the Internet, not teaching but discussion, then it is not misleading or unusual for that monk to use a pseudonym and not discuss personal details. That is the nature of this medium so that is why I have stated this position. Everyone who uses this medium understands these rules and they are accepted universally without any problems. Actually, the real identities of those participating in Yahoo services are protected by law and cannot be revealed to even a government agency for any reason. Real identity is not important on the Internet. Additionally, the Bhikkhu rules are for the proper and smooth functioning of the Sangha, not as omnipresent, moral guidelines. It is not a 'sin' for a monk to be in the Internet, protect his/her identity, and participate in Dhamma discussion as a layperson. There won't be a 'Big Buddha' in the sky throwing down any thunderbolts at such a monk. The member who was concerned about the 'morality' of this and started to use his own name was just being paranoid about his karma. He could have used whatever identity he wanted and his karma would remain untouched, in my opinion. However, writing letters, writing books, using the telephone, or sending telegrams does not meet this special circumstance/criteria of the Internet. I believe that a monk who misrepresents him/herself in those mediums are deceiving others purposefully and that shouldn't be done. Metta, James 16717 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Nov 6, 2002 2:53am Subject: Re: Monks should not write to laypeople? --- Dear James, There are many points in your post that others may want to comment on. I'll just look at one for now, I snip it just to get to the point: In dhammastudygroup@y..., "James" wrote: > --- > > If monks need to go to > > laypeople to learn Dhamma, there is really something > > wrong with the Sangha in that case. > > ______________ I mentioned yesterday Citta the layman: There is a section in the Tipitaka about him called, I think, Citta samyutta, salayatana: He became enlightened after the the Venerable Mahanama taught him about the ayatanas (sense bases). In the Samyutta Nikaya there are 2 suttas where he discussed deep Dhamma with monks: ""The first documented teaching by Citta relates an event where some senior Bhikkhus were sitting together in the entrance of the monastery discussing whether fetters and sense objects are one and the same. Some of the monks felt that they were the same, while some felt that they were not. Citta joined the gathering and the monks asked him his opinion. He declared that in his view fetters and sense objects were different not only in name but also in meaning. Citta then used an example to illustrate his viewpoint. He said that just as a pair of black and white oxen tied to a cart were not fetters to each other but were both fettered by a single rope or yoke strap, the sense faculties do not bind the external objects. Instead, they are bound or yoked by craving. The Bhikkhus praised Citta's understanding of the Dhamma and said that he must surely possess the eye of wisdom. On another occasion a Bhikkhu named Kamabhu recited a stanza dispensed by the Buddha and asked Citta for its meaning. The stanza with which he needed help was as follows: "The faultless chariot with its one axle, And white canopy rolls. See him coming without blemish, Without ties, the one who has crossed the stream." After some reflection Citta explained that the Buddha was referring to an Arahanth, who, without blemish or ties, has crossed the stream. He has done away with greed, hatred and delusion and is safe from the ocean of craving. The chariot is the body, the one axle is mindfulness, the smooth, frictionless holding together of the parts (faultless) is virtue and the white canopy is the final deliverance of emancipation. Impressed by his explanation, the Bhikkhu Kamabhu thanked Citta and praised him by saying that he had surely achieved great wisdom to be able to explain such complex teachings."""" 2RelativesAndDisciplesOfTheBuddha/c33.htm These suttas are recorded in The Tipitaka and carefully studied by monks even in these times BTW In the Dhammapada Atthakatha it says that once Citta made offerings to some monks and one of the monks was a little rude. He was rebuked by Citta and the monk complained to the Buddha but it was he who was made to apologize to Citta (the monk became an arahant eventually). He used to exchange letters about Dhamma with a man and he later met this man when he became a monk called (I think) Isadatta. ___________ And I am not sure about your > > generalization > > about laypeople and monks in Thailand. From my > > experience, that is not true. Laypeople in Thailand > > would never, ever presume to tell a monk about > > Dhamma. ______________ I have spoken with 4 Thai monks in Bangkok over the last month. All of whom at the time were attending Dhamma talks given by laymen, at the center where I went to meet with Sujin Boriharnwanaket. Naturally the laypeople were also very interested to hear the monks explanations of any aspects of Dhamma. And, even while listening to Dhamma teaching by laymen, are held with special high regard by the layperson. Monks are due the utmost respect . Robert 16718 From: James Date: Wed Nov 6, 2002 5:55am Subject: Re: Monks should not write to laypeople? --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- Dear James, > There are many points in your post that others may want to comment > on. I'll just look at one for now, I snip it just to get to the point: > > In dhammastudygroup@y..., "James" wrote: > > --- > > > > If monks need to go to > > > laypeople to learn Dhamma, there is really something > > > wrong with the Sangha in that case. > > > ______________ Robert, This particular sentence may have jumped out at you, but you failed to include the sentence that proceeds it which reads, "Monks shouldn't need to discuss Dhamma with most laypeople to learn it (of course, there are a few exceptions of dynamic, insighful, wise laypeople who monks could learn from)". I don't believe that you and I are in disagreement. Of course there are some examples of exceptional laypeople in the suttas who could teach monks. Their good karma had probably ripened for considerable eons for them to be of this ability. But these people are rare exceptions, not the general rule. I would comment about the story of the monks in Thailand attending lectures by laypeople, but I am going to stop here. I am starting to get away from my original post, monks on the Internet, and entering a new area, the dhamma knowledge of monks vs. laypeople. And from experience, that type of discussion is really pointless. It just becomes a messy clash of generalizations leading nowhere. Monks should be respected and monks have a lot to offer to laypeople. Where laypeople fall in the scheme of the 'dhamma hierachy' should not be important or relevant. As the Buddha taught, it is conceit to believe oneself better than others, worse than others, or the same stature as others. Ultimately, there is no self and no other. Metta, James 16719 From: abhidhammika Date: Wed Nov 6, 2002 6:46am Subject: Attributes Of Nibbana: To KKT And All Dear KKT You provided the following meanings of Brahman/ Atman. "pure existence = sat pure consciousness = cit pure bliss = ananda truth = satyam knowledge = jnanam goodness = shivam beauty = sundaram omnipotent = infinite = anantam unborn = ajo uncreated = uncompounded = self-existent = immanent in all beings (and things) = sarva-sattva-dehantar-gata immortal = nitya eternal = shasvata permanent = dhruva" To my knowledge, the following eight attributes of Brahman/Atman do not apply to those of nibbana. ( pure existence = sat pure consciousness = cit pure bliss = ananda knowledge = jnanam beauty = sundaram omnipotent = self-existent = immanent in all beings (and things) = sarva-sattva-dehantar-gata ) Nibbana is not a sentient being. Therefore, sat, cit, annada, jnanam, omnipotent, and sarva-sattva-dehantar-gata (entering and residing as an homunculi in all beings) do not apply to nibbana. Similarly, sundaram (beauty) does not apply to nibbana because nibbana is "anidassana.m (invincible, unseeable)". Similarly, nibbana is not self-existent because it is selfless and because it is "abhuutam,neither caused by others nor self-caused". However, nibbana also has the following nine attributes. ( truth = satyam goodness = shivam infinite = anantam unborn = ajo uncreated = uncompounded = immortal = nitya eternal = shasvata permanent = dhruva ) With kind regards and appreciation Suan http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "phamdluan2000" wrote: Dear Suan, --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "abhidhammika" wrote: Dear KKT You wrote the following. "...since one meaning of atta is that something << exists by itself >> and is << independent >> of other things." I wonder if you could post those meanings of atta in Pali or Sanskrit when you have spare time. I will like to check them side by side with the meanings of nibbana in that Udaana passage. Thanking in advance. With kind regards Suan KKT: I think there are two main meanings of atta or self: __The empirical self: This is the ego or the << feeling of I, Me, Mine, Myself >> or the << I-thought >> This << self >> was categorically denied by the Buddha in His 2nd sermon i.e. Anattalakkhana Sutta and in many other suttas by this famous phrase: << This is not mine, this I am not, this is not myself >> (*) __The metaphysical self: In the historical context of the Buddha's time, this is the Atman/Brahman of orthodox Brahmanism or the Jiva (life principle) of Jainism (another unorthodox system like Buddhism) It seems that the Buddha didn't give a definite answer when being asked about this << self >> as in this sutta: Vacchagotta comes to the Buddha and asks: 'Venerable Gotama, is there an Atman?' The Buddha is silent. 'Then Venarable Gotama, is there no Atman?' Again the Buddha is silent. Vacchagotta gets up and goes away. (Samyutta Nykaya) I think just because of the silence of the Buddha that after Buddha's Parinibbana people began to speculate alot about this << fundamental >> question. (and a quite exciting question :-)) As for your request, I've found a list of some << attributes >> of Braman/Atman in Sanskrit but they are not complete (I am not expert in Sanskrit) pure existence = sat pure consciousness = cit pure bliss = ananda truth = satyam knowledge = jnanam goodness = shivam beauty = sundaram omnipotent = infinite = anantam unborn = ajo uncreated = uncompounded = self-existent = immanent in all beings (and things) = sarva-sattva-dehantar-gata immortal = nitya eternal = shasvata permanent = dhruva BTW, in the Milindapanho, Nibbana is described as: << pure bliss >> << cannot be elucidated by means of any simile, explanation, reason, or inference >> << is not past, not future, not present, not produced, not unproduced, not producible >> << is not in storage somewhere >> << is not due to kamma, causes, climatic changes >> Hope this helps. Peace, KKT (*) In the Maitreya Upanishads there is a similar phrase: Borne along and defiled by the stream of qualities, unsteady, wavering, bewildered, full of desire, distracted, one goes on into the state of self-conceit. In thinking, "This is I" and "That is mine" one binds himself with himself, as does a bird with a snare. ============== --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "phamdluan2000" wrote: Dear Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: Hi, Rahula - Any interpretation which views nibbana as atta is, I believe, heretical, and the Dhammakaya Buddhist Meditation Institute's taking that position causes me to wonder about that organization. The Buddha's teachings are generally quite precise, and his using 'sankhara' twice, once with 'anicca' and once with 'dukkha', but then changing to 'dhamma' with regard to 'anatta' is quite unlikely to be unintentional. With metta, Howard KKT: A definition of Nibbana from the Udana: O bhikkhus, there is the unborn, ungrown, and unconditioned. Were there not the unborn, ungrown, and unconditioned, there would be no escape for the born, grown, and conditioned. Since there is the unborn, ungrown, and unconditioned, so there is escape for the born, grown, and conditioned. This definition could easily lead one to think that Nibbana is atta since one meaning of atta is that something << exists by itself >> and is << independent >> of other things. If Nibbana is << unborn, ungrown, and unconditioned >> then isn't Nibbana << existing by itself >> and << independent >> of everything? I raise this question not because I want to defend the atta doctrine but because I want to show that this matter is not easily to clinch. Peace, KKT 16720 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Nov 6, 2002 8:07am Subject: Re: Monks should not write to laypeople? --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "James" > I don't believe that you and I are in disagreement. Of course there > are some examples of exceptional laypeople in the suttas who could > teach monks. Their good karma had probably ripened for considerable > eons for them to be of this ability. But these people are rare > exceptions, not the general rule. > _____________________ Dear James, I think from this post that we do agree on most points. Certainly I agree that the ripening of kamma over aeons would be the cause for these laypeople having this ability , and the same for those wise monks who could do the same. Just to add a related point about the importance of both monks and laypeople having the responsibilty of passing on the Dhamma there is one sutta where the Buddha said he "will not pass away until monks, nuns , wise laymen and laywoman are able to proclaim this Dhamma correctly and refute any erroneous notions about Dhamma that arise" or words to that effect. _______________ > > Monks should be respected and monks have a lot to offer to > laypeople. Where laypeople fall in the scheme of the 'dhamma > hierachy' should not be important or relevant. As the Buddha taught, > it is conceit to believe oneself better than others, worse than > others, or the same stature as others. Ultimately, there is no self > and no other. __________ Yes, I think so too. Robert 16721 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Nov 6, 2002 8:59am Subject: RE: [dsg] Way 21, Comm. Dear Larry, > -----Original Message----- > From: LBIDD@w... [mailto:LBIDD@w...] > Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 5:32 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 21, Comm. > > > "There can be nothing apart from the qualities of > primary and derived > materiality, in a body." > > Hi all, > > Anyone know what primary and derived materiality > is? The primary materiality is the 4 primary rupa elements (hardness-softness, cohesion, tension, and heat-cold), and the derived materiality is the 24 other rupa elements. The 4 primary rupa elements are said to arise in mutual dependence on one another, but not on the derived elements. The derived elements are derived because they all depend on the primary elements to arise. kom 16722 From: uanchihliu Date: Wed Nov 6, 2002 9:07am Subject: Re: to appreciate Buddhist goal of parinibbana Hi Antony and all, This thread has evolved into a great discussion of what nibbana is, and I follow it with tremendous interest. However, may I share a different perspectives on this. You said > I would like to appreciate and form skillful beliefs > about the Buddhist goal of parinibbana in order to feel > inspired and arouse interest in practising the path. > > I would like to believe that parinibbana is full of love > and compassion like the path is rather than just an > undifferentiated peace. > Personally I feel that if you would like to believe that parinibbana is full of love and compassion, or if I may re-phrase it, if you are looking for love and compassion, then I think you are on the wrong path. However, if you are looking to find truth, or to see things as they really are, then give Buddhism a try, because that's what it says it's offering. I hope I don't sound too harsh. Somehow it just reminded me of the movie, "Matrix", where one was being offered the "red pill" and the "blue pill". When you take the "red pill" (or was it blue, sorry I am getting old), you will see the truth as it is. In the movie, it turned out the truth is not beautiful, and in fact, one person regretted taking the red pill. So my question to you is, do you like to take the red pill or the blue pill. Buddhism is not a belief, if I understand it correctly. That is why there is so much emphasis on knowledge by direct experience. It is showing you the way, but you have to confirm every bit of what's being told to you by direct experience. There are many discussions on nibbana, but fact remains, if you are not a arahat, you would never comprehend what nibbana means. Even in Christianity, no matter how much you hear about heaven, the fact remains, if you are not in heaven, you would never comprehend what heaven is like. I thank you for prompting this question in this group. It really makes me to reconsider, and these are just my thoughts... with metta, WL 16723 From: Date: Wed Nov 6, 2002 4:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 21, Comm. Hi, Kom and all - In a message dated 11/6/02 12:00:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, kom@a... writes: > > Dear Larry, > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: LBIDD@w... [mailto:LBIDD@w...] > >Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 5:32 PM > >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > >Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 21, Comm. > > > > > >"There can be nothing apart from the qualities of > >primary and derived > >materiality, in a body." > > > >Hi all, > > > >Anyone know what primary and derived materiality > >is? > > The primary materiality is the 4 primary rupa elements > (hardness-softness, cohesion, tension, and heat-cold), and > the derived materiality is the 24 other rupa elements. The > 4 primary rupa elements are said to arise in mutual > dependence on one another, but not on the derived elements. > The derived elements are derived because they all depend on > the primary elements to arise. > > kom > ========================= I have a few questions: 1) Kom, you render the traditional 'air' as "tension". Is one to think of this "tension" as the directly experienced rupa corresponding to the pa~n~natti of motion? 2) In what sense/way are rupas such as images and sounds *derived* from primary rupas? Also, doesn't this notion of primary rupas hark back the the Hindu notion of three gunas: satvas, tamas, and rajas? 3) Does their being derived from primary rupas in any way compromise the status of derived elements as paramattha? Or, better put, what do the derived rupa elements and the primary rupa elements have in common that makes them all paramattha dhammas? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16724 From: James Date: Wed Nov 6, 2002 10:14am Subject: Re: to appreciate Buddhist goal of parinibbana --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "uanchihliu" wrote: > Personally I feel that if you would like to believe that > parinibbana is full of love and compassion, or if I > may re-phrase it, if you are looking for love and > compassion, then I think you are on the wrong path. > > However, if you are looking to find truth, or to see > things as they really are, then give Buddhism a try, > because that's what it says it's offering. > > I hope I don't sound too harsh. Dear WL, I really like your style of writing. It is very clean and forceful. However, while I see your good intentions with these statements (discouraging attachment), I strongly disagree with this conclusion you draw about Buddhism, Nibbana, and Parinibanna. Seeking `the truth' and seeking `love and compassion' are synonymous in my book. The truth is love and compassion and love and compassion are the truth. At least the Buddha said so, and I consider him the authority on `truth' (conventional and absolute), though others may not. Here are some links to some of the suttas where he addresses this important subject. I included the descriptions available at www.accesstoinsight.org: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an05-027.html (The Buddha encourages the practice of the brahmavihara (sublime states of metta, karuna, mudita, and upekkha) as a basis for concentration practice, as it leads to five important realizations.) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an08-063.html (The Buddha describes the practices of the four sublime states (metta, karuna, mudita, and upekkha) and of the four frames of reference (foundations of mindfulness) as a basis for concentration practice.) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an11-016.html (Eleven benefits arising from the practice of metta (loving kindness, or good- will) meditation.) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn20-005.html (Two suttas on the extraordinary power of metta (goodwill).) And allow me to quote one whole sutta in conclusion, even though I know this is discouraged on this list it is a rather short sutta, and it states emphatically that metta (love, compassion, and good will) will lead one to Nibbana. And if the state of Nibbana has these qualities, it only stands to reason that Parinibbana would also, and possibly even more so. The Buddha stated that death was not the end and hinted very strongly that Nibbana was not the end. He knew that there wasn't an end, and couldn't discern a beginning…therefore, there must be only being. And `being' has the strong quality of metta. This is not attachment to metta in my eyes, this is truth. Metta, James Karaniya Metta Sutta Good Will This is to be done by one skilled in aims who wants to break through to the state of peace: Be capable, upright, & straightforward, easy to instruct, gentle, & not conceited, content & easy to support, with few duties, living lightly, with peaceful faculties, masterful, modest, & no greed for supporters. Do not do the slightest thing that the wise would later censure. Think: Happy, at rest, may all beings be happy at heart. Whatever beings there may be, weak or strong, without exception, long, large, middling, short, subtle, blatant, seen & unseen, near & far, born & seeking birth: May all beings be happy at heart. Let no one deceive another or despise anyone anywhere, or through anger or irritation wish for another to suffer. As a mother would risk her life to protect her child, her only child, even so should one cultivate a limitless heart with regard to all beings. With good will for the entire cosmos, cultivate a limitless heart: Above, below, & all around, unobstructed, without enmity or hate. Whether standing, walking, sitting, or lying down, as long as one is alert, one should be resolved on this mindfulness. This is called a sublime abiding here & now. Not taken with views, but virtuous & consummate in vision, having subdued desire for sensual pleasures, one never again will lie in the womb. 16725 From: James Date: Wed Nov 6, 2002 10:27am Subject: Sutta Research Tip Hello All, Since this is a study group, I would like to share a technique I use to find suttas quickly on whatever subject matter I am seeking. My hope is that this may inspire others to share various techniques they use to find and research Buddhist information. Of course, we all know about www.accesstoinsight.org. And we all know that it has a search feature. But, when a search is done using this feature, it will often bring up articles and repeated links that can equal hundreds of sources. Not very helpful to find a sutta on a particular subject. What very few people know is that in Internet Explorer, if you push the `Ctrl' button and the `F' button at the same time, that will bring up a little dialogue box that is able to search all of the text of a page. Since the Sutta Pitaka has been translated with brief descriptions of the contents of the suttas, but the descriptions and the suttas are very numerous, if you do a Ctrl- F, you can type in `metta' for example, it will search the whole page and jump to the first instance of that word. Hit search again, and it will jump the page to the next instance, etc. until it reaches the end. This search capability is also helpful when looking at a very long sutta and you want to find out if it has a certain idea contained within. You don't have to read the whole sutta, just push Ctrl-F, enter the word or phrase, and you will automatically go to it or told that it doesn't exist. Hope this helps some of you in your Internet research. If you have any helpful hints/tips, I would love to hear them. Metta, James 16726 From: Uan Chih Liu Date: Wed Nov 6, 2002 11:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: to appreciate Buddhist goal of parinibbana Hi James (and Antony), I want to clarify that I don't have the slightest intention of de-emphasizing the importantce of love, compassion and good will. As James stated and quoted that metta (love, compassion, and good will) will lead one to Nibbana. Love, and compassion indeed come very naturally when one sees things the way they are. Perhaps the post is more of self-reflection on my part to be careful about seeking for a perfect world of harmony, peace, and love vs. seeing for things really are. To be careful about the moment of wanting a perfect world and creating an adversion for war and self-destruction in this world. I still don't quite agree with the statement "Seeking `the truth' and seeking `love and compassion' are synonymous in my book. But perhaps ultimately we are after the same thing, just saying them from different angles. with metta, WL ----- Original Message ----- From: "James" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 10:14 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: to appreciate Buddhist goal of parinibbana --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "uanchihliu" wrote: > Personally I feel that if you would like to believe that > parinibbana is full of love and compassion, or if I > may re-phrase it, if you are looking for love and > compassion, then I think you are on the wrong path. > > However, if you are looking to find truth, or to see > things as they really are, then give Buddhism a try, > because that's what it says it's offering. > > I hope I don't sound too harsh. Dear WL, I really like your style of writing. It is very clean and forceful. However, while I see your good intentions with these statements (discouraging attachment), I strongly disagree with this conclusion you draw about Buddhism, Nibbana, and Parinibanna. Seeking `the truth' and seeking `love and compassion' are synonymous in my book. The truth is love and compassion and love and compassion are the truth. At least the Buddha said so, and I consider him the authority on `truth' (conventional and absolute), though others may not. Here are some links to some of the suttas where he addresses this important subject. I included the descriptions available at www.accesstoinsight.org: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an05-027.html (The Buddha encourages the practice of the brahmavihara (sublime states of metta, karuna, mudita, and upekkha) as a basis for concentration practice, as it leads to five important realizations.) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an08-063.html (The Buddha describes the practices of the four sublime states (metta, karuna, mudita, and upekkha) and of the four frames of reference (foundations of mindfulness) as a basis for concentration practice.) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an11-016.html (Eleven benefits arising from the practice of metta (loving kindness, or good- will) meditation.) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn20-005.html (Two suttas on the extraordinary power of metta (goodwill).) And allow me to quote one whole sutta in conclusion, even though I know this is discouraged on this list it is a rather short sutta, and it states emphatically that metta (love, compassion, and good will) will lead one to Nibbana. And if the state of Nibbana has these qualities, it only stands to reason that Parinibbana would also, and possibly even more so. The Buddha stated that death was not the end and hinted very strongly that Nibbana was not the end. He knew that there wasn't an end, and couldn't discern a beginning.therefore, there must be only being. And `being' has the strong quality of metta. This is not attachment to metta in my eyes, this is truth. Metta, James Karaniya Metta Sutta Good Will This is to be done by one skilled in aims who wants to break through to the state of peace: Be capable, upright, & straightforward, easy to instruct, gentle, & not conceited, content & easy to support, with few duties, living lightly, with peaceful faculties, masterful, modest, & no greed for supporters. Do not do the slightest thing that the wise would later censure. Think: Happy, at rest, may all beings be happy at heart. Whatever beings there may be, weak or strong, without exception, long, large, middling, short, subtle, blatant, seen & unseen, near & far, born & seeking birth: May all beings be happy at heart. Let no one deceive another or despise anyone anywhere, or through anger or irritation wish for another to suffer. As a mother would risk her life to protect her child, her only child, even so should one cultivate a limitless heart with regard to all beings. With good will for the entire cosmos, cultivate a limitless heart: Above, below, & all around, unobstructed, without enmity or hate. Whether standing, walking, sitting, or lying down, as long as one is alert, one should be resolved on this mindfulness. This is called a sublime abiding here & now. Not taken with views, but virtuous & consummate in vision, having subdued desire for sensual pleasures, one never again will lie in the womb. 16727 From: James Mitchell Date: Wed Nov 6, 2002 0:04pm Subject: [dsg] Re: to appreciate Buddhist goal of parinibbana Dear WL, Yes, I think we are after the same things, just looking at them from different angles. For example, I know that life is not completely happy because I have not fully realized the 'truth'. Buddhism has nothing to do with this unhappiness and it did not create the dukkha for me. I see Buddhism as the only means to true love, compassion and happiness. As I wrote to Jan, the little girl, I am happy that she is learning about Buddhism because it views life in a positive way, not a negative way. It shows that there are possibilities and ways to reach them in this lifetime. It seems to me, and I could be wrong, that many Buddhists seem to forget this. They focus on dukkha, believing that will bring wisdom, rather than focusing on the path away from dukkha. Therefore, Buddhists can become more attached to experiencing and examining dukkha rather than focusing on the release evident in Nibbana. Now, I am a novice at the Abhidhamma, but I seem to understand the most basic principles (maybe??). In 'A Comprehensive Manual of the Abhidhamma' by Mahathera Narada it is written, "This is the division of actuality into the four ultimate realities (paramattha): consciousness, mental factors, material phenomena, and Nibbana (citta, cetasika, rupa, nibbana), the first three comprising conditioned reality and the last the unconditioned element." So Nibbana isn't something that is 'out there', which only the Buddhas/Arahants have, it is something that is a part of our everyday reality. It is all around us and within us. We just can't see it fully, but we can usually sense that it is there. I think it is better to focus on the Nibbana present in each moment than the dukkha. To focus on the dissatisfaction of dukkha and the peace, love, compassion of Nibbana. But maybe I am just being too optimistic. (I know that this explantion of Abhidhamma is rather simplistic, and may be somewhat misconstrued, but I'm trying to reach the advanced knowledge of the rest of this group of these theories. Please forgive my novice understanding and explanations:-) Metta, James ===== Two men look out the same prison bars; one sees mud and the other stars. ~ Frederick Langbridge ~ 16728 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Nov 6, 2002 1:02pm Subject: Re: Sutta Research Tip Hello James, and All, Thanks for that tip about Ctrl F - I tried it on your post using the word 'sutta'. :) I only have one search tip, which you may already know. I usually use Google as a search engine. I insert a stream of words or sentence or quote in the 'search' box. Good for finding suttas where you know three, four, or half a dozen words but can't remember the Nikaya or name of sutta. If you want some words in a particular order, you can enclose just those words in single inverted commas and leave additional words unenclosed in the search box. It usually throws up thousands of results with the closest matches at the top. I look at the first page of links, choose the most likely link/article, and click on 'cached'. Most links/articles have this 'cached' option. This highlights in individual different colours ALL the words in the Search request throughout the article. This way you can scroll at high speed down the page and only stop when you see the right 'blur' of colour. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "James" wrote: > Hello All, > > Since this is a study group, I would like to share a technique I use > to find suttas quickly on whatever subject matter I am seeking. My > hope is that this may inspire others to share various techniques they > use to find and research Buddhist information. > > Of course, we all know about www.accesstoinsight.org. And we all > know that it has a search feature. But, when a search is done using > this feature, it will often bring up articles and repeated links that > can equal hundreds of sources. Not very helpful to find a sutta on a > particular subject. What very few people know is that in Internet > Explorer, if you push the `Ctrl' button and the `F' button at the > same time, that will bring up a little dialogue box that is able to > search all of the text of a page. Since the Sutta Pitaka has been > translated with brief descriptions of the contents of the suttas, but > the descriptions and the suttas are very numerous, if you do a Ctrl- > F, you can type in `metta' for example, it will search the whole page > and jump to the first instance of that word. Hit search again, and > it will jump the page to the next instance, etc. until it reaches the > end. This search capability is also helpful when looking at a very > long sutta and you want to find out if it has a certain idea > contained within. You don't have to read the whole sutta, just push > Ctrl-F, enter the word or phrase, and you will automatically go to it > or told that it doesn't exist. > > Hope this helps some of you in your Internet research. If you have > any helpful hints/tips, I would love to hear them. > > Metta, James 16729 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Nov 6, 2002 1:07pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Way 21, Comm. Hi Howard, > -----Original Message----- > From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > > The primary materiality is the 4 primary rupa elements > > (hardness-softness, cohesion, tension, and heat-cold), and > > the derived materiality is the 24 other rupa elements. The > > 4 primary rupa elements are said to arise in mutual > > dependence on one another, but not on the derived elements. > > The derived elements are derived because they all depend on > > the primary elements to arise. > > > > kom > > > ========================= > I have a few questions: > > 1) Kom, you render the traditional 'air' as "tension". Is > one to think > of this "tension" as the directly experienced rupa corresponding to the > pa~n~natti of motion? I think the typical rendering of the characteristics of air is: tension, vibration, and motion. Tension works for me the best: vibration and motion may work for others. I would think the pannatti of motion would correspond to the paramatha dhamma. > 2) In what sense/way are rupas such as images and sounds *derived* > from primary rupas? It is derived because sound doesn't arise singly (similar to cetasikas cannot arise without the cittas): it co-arises with the 4 primary elements (and other derived elements) and is said to be dependent on the primary elements (although the reverse isn't true). >Also, doesn't this notion of primary rupas > hark back the > the Hindu notion of three gunas: satvas, tamas, and rajas? I have no clue about anything hindu. It is called primary because it is not dependent on the derived! > > 3) Does their being derived from primary rupas in any way > compromise > the status of derived elements as paramattha? Or, better put, what do the > derived rupa elements and the primary rupa elements have in > common that makes > them all paramattha dhammas? > No. Even though the cetasikas are dependent on the citta, it doesn't compromise the status of the cetasikas as being paramatha. Paramatha means it has actual characteristics that can be directly experienced by the mind unlike concepts, which has no characteristic at all. kom 16730 From: Uan Chih Liu Date: Wed Nov 6, 2002 2:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: to appreciate Buddhist goal of parinibbana James, I believe many Buddhists talked about dukkha not because of pessimism, but rather, if one does not sense dukkha, how can one have the desire to end the suffering? If we feel that this world is beautiful and human life is wonderful, how will one have the desire to end the rebirth? But I agree one should be careful not become more attached to experiencing and examining dukkha. Clinging to dukkha or happiness is afterall clinging. Your post somehow reminds me another post a while back by Robert: "There is a glass with water in it. The optimist "automatically" sees the glass as "half full"; the classification happened because of his perspective. The pessimist "automatically" sees the glass as "half empty"; again his conditioning plays a role. A "mindful person" does not see "half empty", does not see "half full", does not see "glass" and does not see "water"; a "mindful person" only sees "visible object". http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15922 You may be interested. I am a novice to Abhidhamma, also, so I am definitely all ears. although I don't see Buddhism as looking things from positive or negative views, nor does that implicate any indifference. I think there is no better way to explain it except back to the same old phrase: looking at the things as they really are. with metta, WL ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Mitchell" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 12:04 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: to appreciate Buddhist goal of parinibbana > Dear WL, > > Yes, I think we are after the same things, just > looking at them from different angles. For example, I > know that life is not completely happy because I have > not fully realized the 'truth'. Buddhism has nothing > to do with this unhappiness and it did not create the > dukkha for me. I see Buddhism as the only means to > true love, compassion and happiness. As I wrote to > Jan, the little girl, I am happy that she is learning > about Buddhism because it views life in a positive > way, not a negative way. It shows that there are > possibilities and ways to reach them in this lifetime. > > It seems to me, and I could be wrong, that many > Buddhists seem to forget this. They focus on dukkha, > believing that will bring wisdom, rather than focusing > on the path away from dukkha. Therefore, Buddhists > can become more attached to experiencing and examining > dukkha rather than focusing on the release evident in > Nibbana. > > Now, I am a novice at the Abhidhamma, but I seem to > understand the most basic principles (maybe??). In 'A > Comprehensive Manual of the Abhidhamma' by Mahathera > Narada it is written, "This is the division of > actuality into the four ultimate realities > (paramattha): consciousness, mental factors, material > phenomena, and Nibbana (citta, cetasika, rupa, > nibbana), the first three comprising conditioned > reality and the last the unconditioned element." So > Nibbana isn't something that is 'out there', which > only the Buddhas/Arahants have, it is something that > is a part of our everyday reality. It is all around > us and within us. We just can't see it fully, but we > can usually sense that it is there. I think it is > better to focus on the Nibbana present in each moment > than the dukkha. To focus on the dissatisfaction of > dukkha and the peace, love, compassion of Nibbana. > But maybe I am just being too optimistic. (I know > that this explantion of Abhidhamma is rather > simplistic, and may be somewhat misconstrued, but I'm > trying to reach the advanced knowledge of the rest of > this group of these theories. Please forgive my > novice understanding and explanations:-) > > Metta, James 16731 From: James Mitchell Date: Wed Nov 6, 2002 3:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: to appreciate Buddhist goal of parinibbana Dear WL, Though everyone may get sick of this conversation, I want to continue it. I really enjoy this exchange with you. It makes me think and examine my own Buddhist beliefs. I will reply to your post in-text. Please do not take this as picking it apart, because I am not. It is just that each sentence of yours has a wealth of information and thought, I must do it that way. James, I believe many Buddhists talked about dukkha not because of pessimism, but rather, if one does not sense dukkha, how can one have the desire to end the suffering? (The desire to end suffering is in all of us. We are all born wanting to end the suffering of our lives, our birth, old age, sickness, death, lamentation, sorrow. This is nothing new. Even before the Buddha declared the 4NT, the people of ancient India knew this fact of life. The only thing the Buddha added is a way to escape it that was real and workable. Before the Buddha, everyone resigned themselves to suffer. Suffering is extremely easy to see for everyone. What is not so easy to see is what causes it and the path away from it. So I still say that the emphasis of mindfulness should not be on the dukkha inherent in one’s self or the world; the emphasis should be on the Eightfold Path to liberation. Most Buddhists see the Four Noble Truths as separate things, separate truths. But I posit that they are not separate, they are actually One Noble Truth that has four parts. If a person focuses on just one part, they won’t get the rest of the one truth. The only time the Buddha told his monks to focus on dukkha separate from the 4NT is when he suggested seeing the body as ugly and decaying. And that is a very controversial meditation in my estimation and caused some monks to kill themselves or have others kill them [I have read this elsewhere but cannot find the sutta on the Internet. I suspect it has been censored]. Focusing on dukkha alone is unhealthy and dangerous.). If we feel that this world is beautiful and human life is wonderful, how will one have the desire to end the rebirth? (Because we will. We will see that the human mind has tortured us for eons, that it has made us not enjoy the beauty around us and in us, and that now that we finally have seen it, it is time to go. The party is over because the Pinata has been broken open, the candy is all over the floor, and the end has been reached. It is ironic that just when we see the true beauty of life, it is time to leave it behind. But life is ironic sometimes) But I agree one should be careful not become more attached to experiencing and examining dukkha. Clinging to dukkha or happiness is afterall clinging. Your post somehow reminds me another post a while back by Robert: "There is a glass with water in it. The optimist "automatically" sees the glass as "half full"; the classification happened because of his perspective. The pessimist "automatically" sees the glass as "half empty"; again his conditioning plays a role. A "mindful person" does not see "half empty", does not see "half full", does not see "glass" and does not see "water"; a "mindful person" only sees "visible object". http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15922 You may be interested. (I read this prior post and I don’t agree with how mindfulness has been interpreted. This post suggests that mindfulness is the process of sensations entering the sense doors and not having conceptual understanding applied to them. I don’t see that as mindfulness, I see that as being brain dead. Concepts must be applied to have mindfulness and the resulting wisdom. In the example you give, I believe that the mindful person would see (in Abhidhamma terms): Rupa dhamma enters Nama dhamma. Nama dhamma applies nama dhamma to rupa dhamma. Nama dhamma and nibbana dhamma combine nama-nama dhamma to nama-rupa dhamma. Get that?? :-) Translation: The image of the glass enters the mind. The mind adds a mental categorization to that image. The mind with the quality of Nibbana, which is separate and unconditioned from this process, is able to see this nama-rupa process as being separate from self [called meta-cognition]. The mind process and the rupa process are seen as separate but combined. Wisdom arises in the mind at the most basic level with this understanding through unconditioned nibbana dhamma.) I am a novice to Abhidhamma, also, so I am definitely all ears. (Good, then is the above is all wrong, you won’t be able to correct me! :-) although I don't see Buddhism as looking things from positive or negative views, nor does that implicate any indifference. I think there is no better way to explain it except back to the same old phrase: looking at the things as they really are. (Seeing things as they really are is, true, unconditioned by positive or negative interpretations. But the nibbana dhamma quality still sees how the mind applies either positive or negative interpretions to nama-rupa occurrences. But the quickest route to that level of nibbana dhamma is through an initially positive outlook, in my opinion) With Much Metta, James with metta, WL ===== Two men look out the same prison bars; one sees mud and the other stars. ~ Frederick Langbridge ~ 16732 From: James Mitchell Date: Wed Nov 6, 2002 4:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sutta Research Tip Christine, No, I was not familiar with this search technique. I will give it a try. It sounds pretty neat. Glad you like the Ctrl-F function. I would use it on more important things than my posts though! :-) Metta, James --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hello James, and All, > > Thanks for that tip about Ctrl F - I tried it on > your post using the > word 'sutta'. :) > I only have one search tip, which you may already > know. > I usually use Google as a search engine. I insert a > stream of words > or sentence or quote in the 'search' box. Good for > finding suttas > where you know three, four, or half a dozen words > but can't remember > the Nikaya or name of sutta. If you want some words > in a particular > order, you can enclose just those words in single > inverted commas and > leave additional words unenclosed in the search box. > It usually > throws up thousands of results with the closest > matches at the top. > I look at the first page of links, choose the most > likely > link/article, and click on 'cached'. Most > links/articles have > this 'cached' option. This highlights in individual > different colours > ALL the words in the Search request throughout the > article. This way > you can scroll at high speed down the page and only > stop when you see > the right 'blur' of colour. > > metta, > Christine > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "James" > wrote: > > Hello All, > > > > Since this is a study group, I would like to share > a technique I > use > > to find suttas quickly on whatever subject matter > I am seeking. My > > hope is that this may inspire others to share > various techniques > they > > use to find and research Buddhist information. > > > > Of course, we all know about > www.accesstoinsight.org. And we all > > know that it has a search feature. But, when a > search is done > using > > this feature, it will often bring up articles and > repeated links > that > > can equal hundreds of sources. Not very helpful > to find a sutta on > a > > particular subject. What very few people know is > that in Internet > > Explorer, if you push the `Ctrl' button and the > `F' button at the > > same time, that will bring up a little dialogue > box that is able to > > search all of the text of a page. Since the Sutta > Pitaka has been > > translated with brief descriptions of the contents > of the suttas, > but > > the descriptions and the suttas are very numerous, > if you do a Ctrl- > > F, you can type in `metta' for example, it will > search the whole > page > > and jump to the first instance of that word. Hit > search again, and > > it will jump the page to the next instance, etc. > until it reaches > the > > end. This search capability is also helpful when > looking at a very > > long sutta and you want to find out if it has a > certain idea > > contained within. You don't have to read the > whole sutta, just > push > > Ctrl-F, enter the word or phrase, and you will > automatically go to > it > > or told that it doesn't exist. > > > > Hope this helps some of you in your Internet > research. If you have > > any helpful hints/tips, I would love to hear them. > > > > Metta, James > > ===== Two men look out the same prison bars; one sees mud and the other stars. ~ Frederick Langbridge ~ 16733 From: Date: Wed Nov 6, 2002 4:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 21, Comm. Indeed the character of contemplating the collection of the major and the minor corporeal members, is like the seeing of the constituents of a cart. The character of contemplating the collection of the hair of the head, the hair of the body and the like is comparable to the seeing of the component parts of a city; and the character of contemplating the collection of primary and derived materiality is comparable to the separation of the leaf covering of a plantain-trunk, or is like the opening of an empty fist. Therefore, by the pointing out of the basis called the body in the form of a collection in many ways, the sifting out thoroughly of the apparently compact is shown. Hi all, I think the above answers a question I raised a few days ago: "Is the fine discrimination of all the various dhammas in the abhidhamma really necessary? Or could we just see whatever arises as foul, painful, impermanent, or not self?" The answer is yes, the fine discrimination of the various dhammas is necessary for the "sifting out thoroughly of the apparently compact". This also accords with the definition of anupassana, see below. Larry -------------- Anu (p. 17) (adj.) [Sk. anu; as to etym. see Walde Lat. Wtb. under ulna. See also ani] small, minute, atomic, subtle Anupassana (p. 39) (f.) [abstr. of anupassati, cf. Sk. anudarsana] looking at, viewing, contemplating, consideration, realisation 16734 From: Date: Wed Nov 6, 2002 5:07pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Way 21, Comm. Hi Kom, Thanks for the info on rupa elements. How would you interpret this sentence: "the character of contemplating the collection of primary and derived materiality is comparable to the separation of the leaf covering of a plantain-trunk, or is like the opening of an empty fist." L: Also, there seems to be a difference between kaya and rupa. Kaya includes the various parts of the body and rupa. Would you agree? The intention of 'anupassana' seems to be to break down any apparent whole (concept) into its parts. The phrase "contemplate the body in the body" is said in order to isolate body from feeling, citta, and dhamma. So the contemplation of the elements of rupa here must be different from contemplating rupa as a khandha in dhammanupassana. Any thoughts on this? Larry 16735 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Nov 6, 2002 6:15pm Subject: Re: Practice on DSG, Q1a,b Hi Jaran, Kom (and all), I liked your explanation and reminder that Right Practice occurs when there are conditions for it to do so - the prominent condition being Right Understanding. (I don't know why I seem to 'forget'dhamma knowledge so easily from time to time. But I see that "He has heard much, has retained what he has heard, has stored what he has heard." is part of the fifth requisite condition for the acquiring of panna.) I know what you say about conditions is true , and I remember RobK saying similar things a while ago, about there being no self and no control and that if the right conditions exist for something to arise, then whether one 'wants' it to or not, it will arise. And, of course, the opposite applies also. Jaran, I know you warned about: > "Now because we love our > Self and we want to be good and happy, we have to "do something" to > get rid of Self and wrong-view. Automatically, being influenced by the > enemies of right understanding, we have to be as successful as we are in > the worldlies, so we set out to find a way." But - aren't 'listening to Dhamma' 'considering Dhamma' and 'discussing Dhamma' choices whereby a condition is created that may influence the arising of panna? Perhaps not everytime ... So - 'who' is it that can choose to listen, consider and discuss the Dhamma? And I wonder 'how' this 'who' would differ from one who chooses to sit on a cushion, watches the breath and anything that presents at the sense doors, and believes a condition is created for sati to arise, though perhaps not everytime. I guess I'm thinking out loud and wondering if the cushion sitter is encouraging the kusala states that support the 8-fold path, as in Kom's explanation of what leads to nibbana ... "And what leads to nibbana? Satipatthana (the 8-fold path), and all the kusala states supporting it, conditioning it." Thanks for the 'Panna' sutta, and for your kind words. I found a new site (to me) with suttas from the Anguttara Nikaya: http://www.intratext.com/X/ENG0228.HTM 'Panna Sutta' http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0228/$3p.htm metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., jaran jai-nhuknan wrote: > Hi Chris, please see below. > > Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 20:48:13 -0000 > From: "christine_forsyth" > Subject: Practice on DSG > > Dear Group, > > I found the two posts about Roberts' meeting with Acharn Somporn very > interesting, but I have a few questions about death and practice and > hope someone may have the time and inclination to comment on them ... > > > From the first post :Meeting with Acharn somporn" > "He said that reading the texts is one aspect but only by understanding > sabhava -realities - directly can there be proper understanding. > Everything is dhamma , whether it be seeing or hearing, colour or > sound, hardness, heat, even avijja (ignorance) is dhamma. There is no > one,no being there at all but because of wrong view the > characteristics (lakkhana ) which are simply conditioned dhamma are > taken as self. This is very deep and subtle sakkya ditthi shows > itself by clinging to wrong practice. > He said if there is real understanding of sabhava dhamma then there > is no fear of death because there is no self in sabhava." > > Question 1. (a) I wonder if anyone could clarify for me how 'right > practice' would occur in the everyday life of a buddhist today? > (b) or more exactly, how 'wrong practice' in everyday > life of a buddhist today would be defined? > ---------------------------------- > > I enjoyed the posts as well. Roberts always has interesting points to share > with us. > > Regarding the question above, it is an important question. I am sure many > have addressed this very point many times although it may not have been in > the way that answers your question directly. Before answering your question, > let me tell you my view of 'right practice'. > > Right understanding encompasses right practice. IMHO, there is only one > practice in Buddhism, and it is a noun, practice. Practice refers to the > development of right understanding, meaning the growth of right > understanding, not the making or improvement. :-) This is because right > understanding is a dhamma; it arises due to conditions, falls away > immediately, contains its own characteristics, and cannot be controlled. > This is why it cannot be 'developed' (by us). > > The right practice of a Buddhist today is the same as that of those in the > Buddha's time since the right understanding is always right understanding > (although of many levels). However, what makes today different from the > Buddha's time is the degree of wrong-view and other akusala dhammas. > According to the Tipitaka and from my observations, we are full of, and > affected by, more akusala dhammas than kusala dhammas. We have been > influenced by the enemies of right understanding for a long time. Let's take > this life as an example, we have been working hard for happiness, wealth, > recognition, achievements all our life because wrong-view tell us there is > 'Self'. As you know, the idea of Self is due to three things: wrong- view, > attachment and conceit, and the idea of Self can be so subtle what we cannot > 'feel' it or it can be very apparent. We don't have to think that there is a > 'Self'-- it's automatic. As automatic as we see when we open our eyes, when > we wake up, there is already idea of Self, how subtle it may be. > > Then we learned that people, things, concept are synthesized in our head due > to ignorance, attachment and anger. Furthermore, everything around us is > dhamma with anicca, dhukka and anatta quality. (we can be specific about > anatta here, but let's leave it for the future discussion). > > Soon we learn that the 'Self' is due to, among other things, wrong- view, an > akusala dhamma, a very bad thing. This is one degree of right > understanding--listening and perhaps contemplating. Now because we love our > Self and we want to be good and happy, we have to "do something" to get rid > of Self and wrong-view. Automatically, being influenced by the enemies of > right understanding, we have to be as successful as we are in the worldlies, > so we set out to find a way. As you can see, this is under influence of > "Self", but many of us don't know it or don't have enough courage to admit > it. > > As you can see, the right understanding in one level does not easily > translate to another (higher) level of understanding. We read all about the > 'concept' of dhamma and understand most of it. However, when we come back to > the 'world' in stead of sticking to we leave our understanding in the books > we read (in our case, in the emails :-), we often go back to our 'usual': > the influence of the enemies of right understanding--often lobha, > attachment. With the attachment to Self, we go after kusala dhamma, metta, > sati, panna, insights, vipassana nana, and even Nibbana, and we can't help > feeling sorry (or guilty) when akusala dhamma arise. Often we tell ourselves > (or Self) that we do it for the higher level of understanding, but what we > fail to realize (or admit) is that we are going after good kusala dhamma and > running away from akusala dhamma because of the idea of 'Self'. > > This is often because we are not being very 'honest' (to ourselves or just > for the sake of dhamma). This is where tattaramajjhatattaa (one of general > wholesome cetasikas) comes in. Until we are brave enough to accept any > dhamma arising for us to study, until we are brave enough to study the > quality of Self when we feel we have to do something for higher level of > understanding, until we are brave enough to stick to what we study and > understand in the book, and until we are brave enough to reason everything > we read, listen, learn, observe, it is hard for the 'right practice' to grow > or even arise. > > To me, facing the idea of 'Self' in daily life seems the hardest thing, and > most critical, of the whole study. > > If you ask Sarah this question, I am sure she would say ''right practice' is > anything that is based on 'right understanding.'' > > This is probably because you cannot put your finger on the 'right practice' > since it is the quality of mind not visible to the eye as A Sujin once said > that 'by looking, you cannot tell a person to whom satipatthana has arisen > from others because noone knows his mind'. > > This stresses the importance of being very honest to oneself, since no one > knows the quality his mind better than himself. We can fool someone else but > not ourselves. > > I am digressing. Now that you know what my 'right practice' is, let's try to > answer your question. Simply put, 'right practice' occurs in daily life that > same way that lobha and other dhammas do--when there are conditions for > it....so natural. And the prominent condition is probably right > understanding. > > Based on the same principles, the 'wrong practice' can be simply defined as > anything that is 'done' based on the idea of Self (due to attachment, wrong > view, conceit as well as other akusala dhamma) whether one realizes it or > not. Who can tell if it's right practice or a wrong one? Nobody knows that > better than ourselves. > > Please note that I think that 'right practice' includes more than > satipatthana (we have to ask Nina, Roberts K, Kom, Num, Jon and others I > don't remember the names, sorry) according to AN8,2 (panna sutta), among > others. > > Chris, may I say I always enjoy your posts. I wish I could be half as > articulate as you are. > > With appreciation, > Jaran 16736 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Nov 6, 2002 6:46pm Subject: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation" James, I assure you I wasn't mocking the Vinaya. I meant the remarks exactly as written. I do not disparage or discount any of the three baskets of the Tipitaka - to do that (IMO) would be to set myself above the Buddha and/or the Arahats, and reduce what the Enlightened Ones saw as vital, to a mere topic for intellectual discussion, creating the illusion of serious consideration while going backwards in the practice. It doesn't concern me to say it sounds odd, or I don't understand - that's the truth as it appears to me, and I always welcome further clarification ... which you, Rob and Sarah have given. The installing of a webcam, if the Bhikkhu Sangha genuinely and universally required that to teach Dhamma, would be no problem at all. And though your words are something to reflect on, I am not presently convinced of that. I think it is commendable the way you prepare yourself for Dhamma study and meditation and show your respect for the Dhamma. I totally agree with you. James, I accept that where I am born is the fruits of kamma - but still I feel it is so easy to become fatalistic. The result of past action only lasts a mind moment (the instant of conception, say) , and this places me in this country and with these parents. But it doesn't mean I have to be frozen within current circumstances. From time to time certain aspects of Kamma give me food for thought - e.g. To be born in the animal kingdom is seen as 'bad' kamma - but yesterday while waiting for word of my dog's surgery someone at work remarked that 90% of the humans in the world would not have access to such skilled care and surgery if they suffered from the same injury ... at first I thought to myself, yes, but Rusty doesn't have the chance of hearing the Dhamma (apart from listening to the cadence of the Brahma Viharas). And then I remembered that neither do all humans, perhaps not even the majority. So - I put Kamma back in the 'too hard' basket again for a while ... Thank you for your confidence in my progress in the Dhamma. :) metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., James Mitchell wrote: > Sorry, my e-mail is not cooperating with me today. > Here is the complete message I intended to send. > Sorry for the odd spacing. > > > > --- christine_forsyth > > wrote: > > > > Hi James, > > > > I hadn't heard these rules before. If we all > > get > > > > webcams would that > > > > be acceptable? Then any Bhikkhu could see that > > I > > > > don't have an > > > > umbrella, staff, knife, or weapon in my hand. > > I > > > > have no shoes on, > > > > I'm not in a vehicle, I'm not lying down, not > > > > sitting holding up my > > > > knees and not wearing head gear. I would be > > happy > > > > to sit, stand or > > > > walk as directed to obtain Dhamma teachings. > > > > > > (Christine, if you were willing to go to that > > extent > > > to observe the bhikkhu rules, then of course a > > monk > > > could teach the dhamma to you over the Internet. > > I > > > am > > > not sure if you are mocking these rules or not, > > > probably not, but they do serve a very valuable > > > purpose. A person must be in the right > > > frame-of-mind > > > to properly receive the dhamma. As the Buddha > > said, > > > ""This Dhamma that I have attained is deep, hard > > to > > > see, hard to realize, peaceful, refined, beyond > > the > > > scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by > > > the > > > wise." If a person is walking with an umbrella, > > or > > > even walking a path, or driving, or has his shoes > > on > > > (ready to go somewhere else), or has a walking > > stick > > > (again, going somewhere), or has a knife or weapon > > > in > > > his hand (obviously not ready for dhamma > > teaching), > > > or > > > lying down relaxing, or holding the knees in a > > > relaxing pose, or is wearing a hat or headgear > > > (again, > > > going somewhere), or sitting in a chair relaxing, > > or > > > sitting higher than a monk, than that person is > > not > > > ready to receive the teachings of the dhamma. The > > > Dhamma is a very serious business and should not > > be > > > taken lightly. Whenever I read the dhamma or > > > discuss > > > the dhamma, I make sure that I am not lying down, > > > that > > > my shoes are off, that I am not planning on going > > > anywhere else, that I am alert...and I have even > > > added > > > some of my own rules to this list that the Buddha > > > didn't require: I make sure that my hands are > > clean, > > > that my face is clean, and that I am not eating > > > anything (drinking water is acceptable). I won't > > > even > > > meditate unless I have washed my face and hands. > > I > > > believe that the body must be clean when receiving > > > the > > > dhamma or it is disrespectful to the Triple Gem. > > > And > > > eating food is a big no-no. If I eat, I eat. If > > I > > > study the dhamma, I study the dhamma. I don't do > > > both.) > > > > I am sure, though they sound very odd, that > > there > > > > must be a good > > > > reasons behind these rules. > > > (I think I have explained some. But it is just my > > > interpretation. I don't know all of the reasons > > > behind the rules.) > > > > I have never met with or spoken to a Bhikkhu > > > > personally - and the > > > > last time I met another Buddhist was when the > > dsg > > > > members got > > > > together at Noosa three months ago. But I have > > > had > > > > a few private > > > > emails from members of the Sangha that were > > > > invaluable in helping me > > > > understand the Dhamma. > > > (I will not comment on the monk writing to you. I > > > really don't know all of the ins and outs about > > > that. > > > But I do know one thing: Christine, it is your > > karma > > > to be in a situation where you must learn the > > Dhamma > > > on your own. You have this situation in your life > > > now > > > for a reason. I would lightly suggest that you > > not > > > begrudge it or hope that things were different for > > > you. Though it may seem difficult at times, later > > > you > > > will probably see the wisdom of it. You will rise > > > like a Phoenix from the ashes of your solitary > > > struggles; which I think you have already > > actually. > > > I > > > see you streaking across the sky, with a trail of > > > Dhamma fire, and I have little sympathy for > > > you...maybe some envy but not sympathy. > > > > > > No Dhamma is better than corrupt Dhamma. The > > Buddha > > > came up with these rules for a reason. If a > > person, > > > lay or monk, takes refuge in the Triple Gem, they > > > must > > > accept the whole enchilada. It isn't a 'pick and > > > choose' kinda thing for those who accept The > > Triple > > > Gem into their hearts and minds.) > > > > Email and the internet is the only avenue I have > > > for > > > > contact, and > > > > having the Dhamma explained. > > > (No, you have your mind and your heart. Even if > > you > > > had absolutely nothing, no e-mail, no books, no > > > suttas, no contacts, nothing! When you are ready, > > > the > > > Dhamma will find you and teach you. In Taoism, it > > > is > > > said, "When the heart is ready the teacher will > > > come." > > > I believe that very much. And I also believe > > that > > > often the teacher is oneself. > > > > Appreciate the opportunities you have ... > > > (Accept the karma you have.) > > > > > > > > metta, > > > > Christine > > > > > > Metta, James 16737 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Nov 6, 2002 6:59pm Subject: [dsg] Re: to appreciate Buddhist goal of parinibbana Hello James and WL, I am enjoying the exchanges between the two of you as well. May I add that with regard to the Four Noble Truths that our job is To understand the First Truth To Abandon the Second Truth To Realise the Third Truth To Develop the Fourth Truth. None of which is easy to do. None or which we have managed to do through uncountable lives. It is not just a case of acknowledging the saying, "Sh-t happens, and then you die", and thinking you understand Dukkha. Dukkha, anatta, anicca are all difficult to realise. Buddhism does recognise beauty. You may enjoy reading a couple of essays by Ven. Professor Dhammavihari http://www.metta.lk/english/12essays.htm Essay no. 1 "Aesthetic enjoyment within the framework of Buddhist thinking" Essay no. 3 " Buddhism and Beauty' James, the sutta you were unable to find is still where it has always been :) (I hope buddhism is about finding reality not censoring and covering it up :) in the Samyutta Nikaya, Chapter IX 53 Jhanasamyutta 'Connected Discourses on the Jhanas' 9 (9) "At Vesali" p. 1774. Excerpt 'Then those bhikkhus, thinking: "The Blessed One was giving a talk on foulness in many ways, was speaking in praise of foulness, was speaking in praise of the development of foulness meditation," dwelt devoted to the development of founess meditation in its many aspects and factors. Being repelled, humiliated, and disgusted with this body, they sought for an assailant. In one day ten bhikkhus used the knife, or in one day twenty or thirty bhikkhus used the knife." <> Ven. Ananda requested that "the Blessed One explain another method so that this Bhikkhu Sangha may be established in final knowledge." [I really would like to have met Ananda - he is just about my favourite disciple.] There are a few other suttas, also in the Samyutta Nikaya, about monks killing themselves: Godhika in Ch. IV Sagathavagga 'Connected Discourses with Mara'; Marasamyutta 23 (3) Godhika p.212 Vakkali in Part III Khandhavagga 'Connected Discourses on the Aggregates'; Khandhasamyutta 87 (5) p.938 Channa Part IV Salayatanavagga 'The book of the Six Sense Bases' ; Salayatanasayutta 87(4) p.1164 And a couple of articles that are interesting: "Buddhism and Suicide" The Case of Channa by Damian Keown http://jbe.gold.ac.uk/3/keown3.html#1 "Suicide in Buddhism - Post-Canonical deflections" by Bhikkhu Professor Dhammavihari http://www.metta.lk/english/suicide.htm This is probably more about suicide in the scriptures than anyone really wanted to know - but, it is such a common part of life whether young or old, rich or poor, ill or in good health, of all nationalities, and whether Buddhist or not. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., James Mitchell wrote: > Dear WL, > > Though everyone may get sick of this conversation, I > want to continue it. I really enjoy this exchange > with you. It makes me think and examine my own > Buddhist beliefs. I will reply to your post in-text. > Please do not take this as picking it apart, because I > am not. It is just that each sentence of yours has a > wealth of information and thought, I must do it that > way. > > James, I believe many Buddhists talked about dukkha > not because of pessimism, but rather, if one does not > sense dukkha, how can one have the desire to end the > suffering? > > (The desire to end suffering is in all of us. We are > all born wanting to end the suffering of our lives, > our birth, old age, sickness, death, lamentation, > sorrow. This is nothing new. Even before the Buddha > declared the 4NT, the people of ancient India knew > this fact of life. The only thing the Buddha added is > a way to escape it that was real and workable. Before > the Buddha, everyone resigned themselves to suffer. > Suffering is extremely easy to see for everyone. What > is not so easy to see is what causes it and the path > away from it. So I still say that the emphasis of > mindfulness should not be on the dukkha inherent in > one's self or the world; the emphasis should be on the > Eightfold Path to liberation. Most Buddhists see the > Four Noble Truths as separate things, separate truths. > But I posit that they are not separate, they are > actually One Noble Truth that has four parts. If a > person focuses on just one part, they won't get the > rest of the one truth. The only time the Buddha told > his monks to focus on dukkha separate from the 4NT is > when he suggested seeing the body as ugly and > decaying. And that is a very controversial meditation > in my estimation and caused some monks to kill > themselves or have others kill them [I have read this > elsewhere but cannot find the sutta on the Internet. > I suspect it has been censored]. Focusing on dukkha > alone is unhealthy and dangerous.). > > If we feel that this world is beautiful and human life > is wonderful, how will one have the desire to end the > rebirth? > > (Because we will. We will see that the human mind has > tortured us for eons, that it has made us not enjoy > the beauty around us and in us, and that now that we > finally have seen it, it is time to go. The party is > over because the Pinata has been broken open, the > candy is all over the floor, and the end has been > reached. It is ironic that just when we see the true > beauty of life, it is time to leave it behind. But > life is ironic sometimes) > > But I agree one should be careful not become more > attached to experiencing and examining dukkha. > Clinging to dukkha or happiness is afterall clinging. > Your post somehow reminds me another post a while back > by Robert: "There is a glass with water in it. The > optimist "automatically" sees the glass as "half > full"; the classification happened because of his > perspective. The pessimist "automatically" sees the > glass as "half empty"; again his conditioning plays a > role. A "mindful person" does not see "half empty", > does not see "half full", does not see "glass" and > does not see "water"; a "mindful person" only sees > "visible object". > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15922 > You may be interested. > > (I read this prior post and I don't agree with how > mindfulness has been interpreted. This post suggests > that mindfulness is the process of sensations entering > the sense doors and not having conceptual > understanding applied to them. I don't see that as > mindfulness, I see that as being brain dead. Concepts > must be applied to have mindfulness and the resulting > wisdom. In the example you give, I believe that the > mindful person would see (in Abhidhamma terms): Rupa > dhamma enters Nama dhamma. Nama dhamma applies nama > dhamma to rupa dhamma. Nama dhamma and nibbana dhamma > combine nama-nama dhamma to nama-rupa dhamma. Get > that?? :-) Translation: The image of the glass > enters the mind. The mind adds a mental > categorization to that image. The mind with the > quality of Nibbana, which is separate and > unconditioned from this process, is able to see this > nama-rupa process as being separate from self [called > meta-cognition]. The mind process and the rupa > process are seen as separate but combined. Wisdom > arises in the mind at the most basic level with this > understanding through unconditioned nibbana dhamma.) > > > I am a novice to Abhidhamma, also, so I am definitely > all ears. > > (Good, then is the above is all wrong, you won't be > able to correct me! :-) > > although I don't see Buddhism as looking things from > positive or negative views, nor does that implicate > any indifference. I think there is no better way to > explain it except back to the same old phrase: looking > at the things as they really are. > > (Seeing things as they really are is, true, > unconditioned by positive or negative interpretations. > But the nibbana dhamma quality still sees how the > mind applies either positive or negative interpretions > to nama-rupa occurrences. But the quickest route to > that level of nibbana dhamma is through an initially > positive outlook, in my opinion) > > With Much Metta, James > > with metta, WL 16738 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Nov 6, 2002 7:11pm Subject: [dsg] Re: to appreciate Buddhist goal of parinibbana1 --- Dear Howard, Of course we can agree to disagree on this matter. I hope you don't mind me adding some points. I think to the degree that there is self view latent then misinterprations about what nibbana is will occur. So one who sees the self as something to get rid of will incline towards an anihilationist view, while one who sees it as something good will incline the other way. This can happen of course even while one says that they believe that there is no self and that only evanasent khandas exist. The reason is that selfview is so deeply accumulated. That is why examining our ideas about nibbana and khandha parinibbana can show us some of the more gross clingings to self view. _______ Howard: "You have asked me whether I see the khandhas, or at least vi~n~nana, > as continuing after the death of an arahant. No, I don't think they do. But I > don't think they exist for the living arahant either."" ________ I am not sure what this means. There is no arahant in actuality - the term arahant is merely a useful designation such as human being or wordling. Howver the khandhas certainly exist - that is what conditioned phenomena are, what samsara is. Samyutta nikaya Khanda vagga XXII 94 (p.950 of Bodhi translation) "Rupa(matter, physical phenomena) that is impermanent, suffering and subject to change: this the wise in the world agree upon as existing, and I too say it exists. Feeling...perception..volitional formations..consciouness..that is impermanent, suffering and subject to change..I too say that it exists" endquote You suggest that I see the goal of Buddhism from a nihilist perspective. That may or may not be. If you said I believed that the Buddha taught the annihilation of Dukkha you would not be wrong. And what is Dukkha is the five khandhas. These include even the most rarefied state of existence such as the plane of neither preception or non-perception. Samyutta. XXII. 30 ""Hence the annihilation, cessation and overcoming of corporeality, feeling, perception, mental formations, and consciousness: this is the extinction of suffering, the end of disease, the overcoming of old age and death."" (endsutta) Anguttara. III. 32 ""This, truly, is Peace, this is the Highest, namely the end of all Karma formations, the forsaking of every substratum of rebirth, the fading away of craving. detachment, extinction, Nibbaana." There are two types of nibbana. The one where an arahant is still alive and the one upon his death: From the Itivuttaka (no.38 PTS). I use Nyanaponika's translation (wheel 251/253) ""This was said by the Blessed one, sopken by the holy One , and thus have I heard: there are , o monks, two aspects of Nibbana; the Nibbana element with the groups of existence still remainin (saupadisesa-nibbanadhatu) and the Nibbana-element with no groups remaining (anupadisesa -nibbana dhatu). What is the Nibbana element with groups of existence still remaing? in that case , o monks, a monk is an arahant; he is taint free..but there still remain with him(until death) the five sense organs that have not yet disappeared and through which he still experiences what is pleasant and unpleasant, as well as bodily ease and pain. The extinction of greed, hatred and delusion in him, this is called the nibbana element with the groups of existence still remaining. And what is the Nibbana-element with no groups remaining? In that case a monk is an arahant..in him those feelings no longer relished , will even here (at his death) come to extinction. This is called the Nibbana-element with no groups of existence remaining.""" endquote For commentary notes see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/9420 Robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > You and I are in agreement that Buddhism is not a species of > substantialism. It seems to me, however, that you see Buddhism as a kind of > nihilism inasmuch as you see its ultimate goal (paramattha) as absolute > nothingness. > You have asked me whether I see the khandhas, or at least vi~n~nana, > as continuing after the death of an arahant. No, I don't think they do. But I > don't think they exist for the living arahant either. The "experience" of an > arahant is, I believe, *radically* different from that of a worldling, with > the khandas constituting the worldling's world, but the arahant's experience > already transcending that "world" (and all "worlds") and being indescribable > because of being unconditioned and having no basis for being described. Now I > would like to ask you whether you believe that the ultimate goal of Buddhism > is an absolute nothingness. > It seems to me that for every sutta portion that can be interpreted as > saying that the ultimate goal of the Dhamma is a nothingness, there are other > suttas that can be interpreted as saying that this is not so, though still, > of course, avoiding the opposite extreme. Perhaps I tend towards the > substantialist heresy. I think you tend towards the nihilist perspective. > Does it not make sense, perhaps, for us to just agree to disagree on this > matter? ;-) > > With metta, > Howard > > In a message dated 11/5/02 7:33:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... > writes: > > > > > --- > > > >-- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > > > Now, when we talk about awareness, we generally mean > > >vi~n~nana, the > > >>discernment of an object. But nama goes beyond vi~n~nana. Nama > > >includes > > >>nibbana, which perhaps is (inadequately) describable as awareness > > of > > >absence, > > >>absence of any and all separate conditions, and completely > > foreign to > > >>anything a worldling has experienced - so different, in fact, as > > to be > > >not > > >>even properly called a thing or an awareness of a thing, but > > >something > > >>totally "other". > > _______________ > > > > Dear Howard, > > As has being discussed before Nibbana is classified in the Abhidhamma > > as arupa (not rupa) and hence nama because all relaities are either > > nama or rupa. Nama has one meaning as bending and so because nibbana > > is experienced by magga and phala it 'bends' these cittas towards > > it. > > But to have any idea of nibbana as some sort of awareness is not > > suported by the texts:In the Khandhasamyutta nikaya. XXII. 94 (p949 > > of Bodhi trans.) > > The Buddha said :A corporeal phenomenon, a feeling, a > > perception, a mental > > formation, a consciousness, which is permanent and persistent, > > eternal and not subject to change, such a thing the wise men in > > this world do not recognize; and I also say that there is no > > such thing.{endquote] > > > > Nynatiloka says'One cannot too often and too > > emphatically stress the fact that not > > only for the actual realisation of the goal of Nibbana, but also > > for a theoretical understanding of it, it is an indispensable > > preliminary condition to grasp fully the truth of anatta, the > > egolessness and insubstantiality of all forms of existence. > > Without such an understanding, one will necessarily misconceive > > Nibbana - according to one's either materialistic or > > metaphysical leanings - either as > > annihilation of an ego, or an eternal state of existence into > > which an ego or self enters or with which it merges"endquote > > > > Robert 16739 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Nov 6, 2002 9:03pm Subject: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation" --- Dear James, I'd like to pick up on something you said to Christine: You wrote about how your hands must be clean and several other stipulations such as not lying down before you can study Dhamma. This is of course your choice. And it is good that you have so much respect. But for me there have been so many occasions when I was contemplating or reading a Dhamma book without having especially clean hands and often while lying down. It seemd to me at those times that the respect I felt for the Dhamma was very tangible . Sometimes I think respect can be there without it appearing in physical actions. In dhammastudygroup@y..., James Mitchell wrote: And > > > eating food is a big no-no. If I eat, I eat. If > > I > > > study the dhamma, I study the dhamma. I don't do > > > both.) >___________ This was a good reminder for me. Sometimes I tend to compartmentalize life. Try to separate "Dhamma" from "mudane". So I eat mostly without study of Dhamma. Absorbed in taste and smell and greed. But with the right reminders there can be energy to study the dhammas that are arising while eating. To consider and test against what has been learned. I think in many ways the real study of Dhamma should occur while we are eating, drinking, lying down or standing up. Just some thoughts. Robert 16740 From: ven.yanatharo.bikkhu Date: Wed Nov 6, 2002 9:22pm Subject: ven yanatharo photograph I hope this one gets to you. Ven. Yanatharo 16741 From: James Mitchell Date: Wed Nov 6, 2002 10:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation" Robert, I received your post while I have been searching high and low for the sutta Christine refers to that I should be able to find in the Samyutta Nikaya, section IX (Christine, I still can't find it...please send me the link where you found it.) I consider this 'study' of dhamma, so my hands are clean, my face is clean, my shoes are off, and I am sitting upright in a chair. I have taken a break a few times to eat Doritos (much against my diet..Oops..) but I did that in the kitchen and then returned to my study room. Like I said, these rules are for me to follow and I do it for a reason. If my hands and face are clean, I am more alert and not sluggish. If my shoes are off I am more peaceful and 'at home'. If I sit up in a chair while reading the dhamma, I am less likely to fall asleep or have my mind wander while I am reading. Really, I think I follow these rules for practicality and not really respect. To show respect, I just make sure I have taken a shower and that I am wearing clean clothes before I visit my Buddhist temple. I also observe certain rules there like bowing to the Buddha statue three times when arriving and when leaving, not putting my feet toward the Buddha statue, not sitting higher than a monk, and waiing to the monks I initially greet (though they see me so much that sometimes they will just stop me from doing that by approaching me and grabbing my hands in greeting). Robert, I think you and I have different definitions of what it means to 'study' dhamma. To me, to study dhamma means that I am reading or listening to the teachings of the Buddha. I don't believe that eating, drinking, lying down or standing up can be related in any way to Dhamma study; those things are Dhamma practice when one practices mindfulness. And though it could be aruged that practice is actually study in it own way, for all practical purposes they are two different things. But try it my way once and see if it makes a difference for you. Next time you read a dhamma book or suttas, wash your hands and face first, take your shoes off, sit upright in a chair, and maybe even light some incense. You may be surprised at how magical and deep the study becomes when you do that rather than just lying in bed reading before you go to sleep. Metta, James ps. You may thing this one is really weird too, but before I meditate, I put my palms together, bring my hands up to my forehead three times in a wai and think to myself, "I take refuge in the Buddha, I take refuge in the Dhamma, I take refuge in the Sangha" And when the meditation is over, I do the same thing but I think to myself, "I give thanks to the Buddha, I give thanks to the Dhamma, I give thanks to the Sangha." I must do this before I meditate or I cannot concentrate my mind. I must do it after I meditate because I spontaneously feel like I want to thank the Triple Gem for the wonderful gift of meditation. Weird but true. --- rjkjp1 wrote: > --- > Dear James, > I'd like to pick up on something you said to > Christine: > You wrote about how your hands must be clean and > several other > stipulations such as not lying down before you can > study Dhamma. This > is of course your choice. And it is good that you > have so much respect. > But for me there have been so many occasions when I > was > contemplating or reading a Dhamma book without > having especially > clean hands and often while lying down. It seemd to > me at those times > that the respect I felt for the Dhamma was very > tangible . Sometimes I > think respect can be there without it appearing in > physical actions. > In dhammastudygroup@y..., James Mitchell > wrote: > And > > > > eating food is a big no-no. If I eat, I eat. > If > > > I > > > > study the dhamma, I study the dhamma. I don't > do > > > > both.) > >___________ > This was a good reminder for me. Sometimes I tend to > > compartmentalize life. Try to separate "Dhamma" from > "mudane". So I > eat mostly without study of Dhamma. Absorbed in > taste and smell and > greed. > But with the right reminders there can be energy > to study the > dhammas that are arising while eating. To consider > and test against > what has been learned. I think in many ways the real > study of Dhamma > should occur while we are eating, drinking, lying > down or standing up. > Just some thoughts. > Robert > ===== Two men look out the same prison bars; one sees mud and the other stars. ~ Frederick Langbridge ~ 16742 From: Date: Wed Nov 6, 2002 6:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: to appreciate Buddhist goal of parinibbana1 Hi, Robert - In a message dated 11/6/02 10:13:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > > --- > Dear Howard, > Of course we can agree to disagree on this matter. I hope you don't > mind me adding some points. > --------------------------------------- Howard: Of course not. -------------------------------------- > > I think to the degree that there is self view latent then > misinterprations about what nibbana is will occur. > -------------------------------------- Howard: I don't know to what extent I have self-view. I do know that I do not *believe* in a self or in any self-sufficiency or own-being in anything. There is no *question*, of course, of how deeply ingrained is the *sense* of personal self and of essence in dhammas. --------------------------------------- So one who sees > > the self as something to get rid of will incline towards an > anihilationist view, while one who sees it as something good will > incline the other way. ----------------------------------------- Howard: There is no self to be gotten rid of. There is however the belief in self to be disabused of and the sense/illusion of self to finally be dispelled with the advent of complete enlightenment. I see the belief in self and the illusion of self, of a self in a person or in any thing, as the chief causes of suffering. I am very uncomfortable with, and believe to be false, both substantialist views and nihilist views. The middle way sees neither essence nor nothingness as the reality of things, as I understand it. To see nibbana as a self/essence/entity is, I believe, error. To see nibbana as nothingness is, I also believe, error. Exactly what nibbana is I can't say, I don't know, and, in fact, I don't think is even meaningful to ask for a genuine description of it. It is indescribable. Nothing can truly be predicated of it. But it is possible to list many things that it is not. One of these, I believe, is nothingness. ------------------------------------------ This can happen of course even while one says > > that they believe that there is no self and that only evanasent > khandas exist. The reason is that selfview is so deeply accumulated. > > That is why examining our ideas about nibbana and khandha parinibbana > can show us some of the more gross clingings to self view. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Sure. ------------------------------------------------- > _______ > > Howard: "You have asked me whether I see the khandhas, or at least > vi~n~nana, > >as continuing after the death of an arahant. No, I don't think they > do. But I > >don't think they exist for the living arahant either."" > ________ > > I am not sure what this means. There is no arahant in actuality - the > term arahant is merely a useful designation such as human being or > wordling. Howver the khandhas certainly exist - that is what > conditioned phenomena are, what samsara is. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: What I mean is that "reality" for the arahant is a radically transformed reality in which dependent origination is no longer an idea or belief, but is directly experienced, and the khandhas (and the namas and rupas comprising them) are no longer the separate entities of the knowledgeable worldling Buddhists or even of the lesser ariyans. For the arahant, as I see it, nothing arises and nothing ceases. One might ask if that doesn't contradict dependent arising and impermanence. It *sounds* like eternalism. I say that it does not contradict dependent arising and impermanence and is not eternalism. Dependent arising itself implies the emptiness of all dhammas, their lack of own-being and separate existence, so that no self-existent thing ever arises or ceases. What, then is reality? Well, perhaps some day we will "see" it, and then we'll know. Of course, "we" won't be there there for the occasion! ----------------------------------------------- > > Samyutta nikaya Khanda vagga XXII 94 (p.950 of Bodhi translation) > "Rupa(matter, physical phenomena) that is impermanent, suffering and > subject to change: this > the wise in the world agree upon as existing, and I too say it > exists. Feeling...perception..volitional > formations..consciouness..that is impermanent, suffering and > subject to change..I too say that it exists" endquote > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, they exist. They are not nothing. But they don't self-exist. They are things-in-relation, aspects of reality separated out and reified by us. ------------------------------------------------ > > You suggest that I see the goal of Buddhism from a nihilist > perspective. That may or may not be. If you said I believed that the > Buddha taught the annihilation of Dukkha you would not be wrong. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree. --------------------------------------------------- > And what is Dukkha is the five khandhas. These include even the most > rarefied state of existence such as the plane of neither preception > or non-perception. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: The five khandhas, and all their elements, are dukkha when craved, hated, or clung to. The five khandas, when attached to, are unsatisfactory. Without the craving, aversion, and attachment, they are not dukkha. And with the complete abolishment of ignorance, they are no longer even the same five khandhas. ---------------------------------------------------- > > Samyutta. XXII. 30 > ""Hence the annihilation, cessation and overcoming of > corporeality, feeling, perception, mental formations, and > consciousness: this is the extinction of suffering, the end of > disease, the overcoming of old age and death."" (endsutta) ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: These are already gone in the living arahant. For the arahant, no entities remain at all. Entities are only for those afflicted with the atta disease. ------------------------------------------------------ > > Anguttara. III. 32 > ""This, truly, is Peace, this is the Highest, namely the end of > all Karma formations, the forsaking of every substratum of > rebirth, the fading away of craving. detachment, extinction, > Nibbaana." > > There are two types of nibbana. The one where an arahant is still > alive and the one upon his death: > From the Itivuttaka (no.38 PTS). > I use Nyanaponika's translation (wheel 251/253) > ""This was said by the Blessed one, sopken by the holy One , and > thus have I heard: > there are , o monks, two aspects of Nibbana; the Nibbana element > with the groups of existence still remainin > (saupadisesa-nibbanadhatu) and the Nibbana-element with no > groups remaining (anupadisesa -nibbana dhatu). > What is the Nibbana element with groups of existence still > remaing? in that case , o monks, a monk is an arahant; he is > taint free..but there still remain with him(until death) the > five sense organs that have not yet disappeared and through > which he still experiences what is pleasant and unpleasant, as > well as bodily ease and pain. The extinction of greed, hatred > and delusion in him, this is called the nibbana element with the > groups of existence still remaining. > And what is the Nibbana-element with no groups remaining? In > that case a monk is an arahant..in him those feelings no longer > relished , will even here (at his death) come to extinction. > This is called the Nibbana-element with no groups of existence > remaining.""" endquote > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: You've mentioned this sutta before, Robert, and I commented on it before. Let us look at the key parts carefully: ******************* What is the Nibbana element with groups of existence still remaining? in that case , o monks, a monk is an arahant; he is taint free..but there still remain with him (until death) the five sense organs that have not yet disappeared and through which he still experiences what is pleasant and unpleasant, as well as bodily ease and pain. The extinction of greed, hatred and delusion in him, this is called the nibbana element with the groups of existence still remaining. And what is the Nibbana-element with no groups remaining? In that case a monk is an arahant..in him those feelings no longer relished , will even here (at his death) come to extinction. This is called the Nibbana-element with no groups of existence remaining. ************************ What are the "groups of existence still remaining" through which feelings are experienced, and which become extinct at death? The five sense organs. Not the *six* sense organs. The *five*. Why the omission of the mind? Was it meant, but not said? Since when was the Buddha not precise? It seems quite possible that the already radically transformed mind (mental functioning, not a self) of the arahant, already indescribable, liberated (from all defilements), and untraceable, is *not* annihilated at death, but is further liberated - finally and completely liberated, by the extinction of the five senses. This would be exactly "vi~n~nanam anidassanam anantam sabbato paham"; that is, "discernment, non-manifestive, infinite, accessible from all round". --------------------------------------------------------- > For commentary notes see > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/9420 > Robert > > ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16743 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Nov 6, 2002 11:29pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Way 21, Comm. Hi Larry, > -----Original Message----- > From: LBIDD@w... [mailto:LBIDD@w...] > > Thanks for the info on rupa elements. How would > you interpret this > sentence: > > "the character of contemplating the collection of > primary and derived > materiality is comparable to the separation of > the leaf covering of a > plantain-trunk, or is like the opening of an empty fist." I think what this means is: 1) What do you find when you peel of all the leaves covering the plaintain-trunk? 2) What do you find in an empty fist when you peel off all the fingers? When panna penetrates (thoroughly, well-roundedly) the characteristics for the elements that appear, I think it will find that there is nothing but the conditioned elements which are impermanent, suffering, whose brief existence depends on all sorts of conditions, and are utterly empty of self. > > L: Also, there seems to be a difference between > kaya and rupa. Kaya > includes the various parts of the body and rupa. > Would you agree? The > intention of 'anupassana' seems to be to break > down any apparent whole > (concept) into its parts. The Kayanupassana Sattipatthana section does mention many body parts (still concepts) as objects of the conciousness. When we talk about the rupas in the 18 elements, the kandhas, the ayatanas, they are all paramatha dhammas, however. There are two sorts of breaking down the wholes (that I see): 1) Breaking a body into its body parts (the 32 body parts) 2) Breaking what we see as a whole into the only existence that can be proven to exist. For 1, we can truly see what we take as beautiful body isn't so beautiful: if this is seen with kusala states, it calms the mind, and can be an object of samatha development. For 2, we can truly see what we take as a whole, as a self (either this self or other selves) are nothing but elements, kandhas, ayatanas, and can be an object of vipassana (and samatha) development. > The phrase "contemplate the body in the body" is > said in order to > isolate body from feeling, citta, and dhamma. So > the contemplation of > the elements of rupa here must be different from > contemplating rupa as a > khandha in dhammanupassana. Any thoughts on this? Ahhhhh, it doesn't fit so neatly for me either. Maybe others will comment... kom 16744 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Nov 6, 2002 11:59pm Subject: [dsg] Re: to appreciate Buddhist goal of parinibbana1 --- Dear Howard, You write: " > "It seems quite possible that the already radically transformed mind > (mental functioning, not a self) of the arahant, already indescribable, > liberated (from all defilements), and untraceable, is *not* annihilated at > death, but is further liberated - finally and completely liberated, by the > extinction of the five senses. This would be exactly "vi~n~nanam anidassanam > anantam sabbato paham"; that is, "discernment, non-manifestive, infinite, > accessible from all round"."" So in a few words I think you are saying that upon the death of the arahant the five sense organs cease but somehow, in some way, a transformed vinnana (consciousness)of undescribable purity etc. continues on. You suggest that the sutta I quoted from the Itivuttaka allows this interpretation. A while back Jim Anderson researched the commentary to this sutta and translated it for us. Here is the relevant part: Itv-a I 167> siitibhavissantii ti accantavuupasamena sa"nkhaaradarathapa.tippassaddhiyaa siitalii bhavissanti, appa.tisandhika-nirodhena nirujjhissantii ti attho. na kevala.m vedayitaani yeva sabbepi pana khii.naasava-santaane pa~ncakkhandhaa nirujjhissanti. vedayitasiisena desanaa kataa. Roughly translated: "will become cool" -- will become cool with absolute calm, with the tranquillization of the anxiety of the formations, the meaning is: 'will cease with the non-rebirth-linking-cessation'. Not just the sensed alone but all the five aggregates in the continuum of a canker- waned one will cease also. A teaching with the 'sensed' as head is made."end translation. ---------- Thus your question: "What are the "groups of existence still remaining" through which > feelings are experienced, and which become extinct at death? The five sense > organs. Not the *six* sense organs. The *five*. Why the omission of the mind? > Was it meant, but not said? Since when was the Buddha not precise?" The five aggregates mentioned in the commentary above include all six sense organs thus when the Itivutaka said "And what is the Nibbana- element with no groups remaining? In that case a monk is an arahant..in him those feelings no longer relished , will even here (at his death) come to extinction. This is called the Nibbana-element with no groups of existence remaining.""" I think it is clear what is meant: vinnana and all conditioned phenomena ceases upon khandha parinibbana; the long, long round of birth and deaths is finally ended. Robert 16745 From: Sarah Date: Wed Nov 6, 2002 11:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 14, Comm. Hi Larry, --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Sarah, thanks for these details. I'm curious to learn more but I have > enough stuff floating around in my head. Maybe later. .... I think I only read this part of yr message before w'out seeing the p.s. ..... > ps: why does sense restraint = purification of virtue? what is the > meaning of sense restraint and purification of virtue? thanks L. > --------------- >Sarah: 1.awakening factors:bojjhanga - enlightenment factors 2.virtues of the > holy state: tapa - ascetic practices of the bhikkhu nec. for jhana > realizations > 3. restraint and relinquishment: sense-restraint, i.e purification of > virtue and sabbanissagga (relinquishing all)-"everything comprised in > formations is relinquished" > > "Besides the wakening factors of the truth, > Besides the virtues of the holy state, > Besides restraint and relinquishment full, I see nothing that can bless > living beings." .... Look like you had a quick change of mind;-) From the commentary note to the sutta: "Even though the development of the enlightenment factors is mentioned first and restraint of the sense faculties afterwards, sense restraint should be understood first. For when this is mentioned, the fourfold purification of virtue is implied. Established on this a bhikkhu undertakes the ascetic practices, here called austerity (tapa), enters a forest, and by developing a meditation subject he develops the enlightenment factors together with insight. Then the noble path arises in him with Nibbana as its object; the latter is what is meant by relinquishing all (sabbanissagga)." ***** Larry, I believe the 'The fourfold purification of virtue'refers to catuparisudhi-sila): 1) restraint with regard to Patimookha for the monks, 2)indriya-samvara-sila (restraint of the senses), 3) purification of livelihood, 4)Morality with regard to the 4 requisites. In particular, many suttas refer to restraint of the senses and this links back to the Satipatthana sutta. If there is 'guarding' of the sense doors, i.e awareness of seeing, hearing and so on and also of their objects, this is the way for the clinging and aversion on account of what is seen, heard and so on to diminish gradually. In a similar way, the patimokkha (disciplinary code for monks) can be a reminder for us all about sense restraint and sila. The highest sila, as referred to in the verse, is that accompanied by highly developed right understanding and other enlightenment factors. Sarah ====== Quote from Nyantiloka's dictionary: ***** "The 4 kinds of morality consisting of purification (catupárisuddhi-síla) are: (1) restraint with regard to the monks' Disciplinary Code, (2) restraint of the senses, (3) purification of livelihood, (4) morality with regard to the 4 requisites (of the monk) . (1) Restraint with regard to the Disciplinary Code (pátimokkha-samvara-síla). "Here the monk is restrained in accordance with the monks' Disciplinary Code, is perfect in conduct and behaviour, and perceiving danger even in the least offences, he trains himself in the rules he has taken upon him" (A . V, 87,109 ,114, etc. ) . (2) Restraint of the senses (indriya-samvara-síla). "Whenever the monk perceives a form with the eye, a sound with the ear, an odour with the nose, a taste with the tongue, an impression with the body, an object with the mind, he neither adheres to the appearance as a whole, nor to its parts. And he strives to ward off that through which evil and unwholesome things, greed and sorrow, would arise, if he remained with unguarded senses; and he watches over his senses, restrains his senses" (M 38). (3) Purification of livelihood (ájíva-párisuddhi-síla). It consists therein that the monk does not acquire his livelihood in a way unbefitting to a monk. (4) Morality with regard to the 4 requisites (paccaya-sannissita-síla). It consists therein that the monk is guided by the right mental attitude when making use of the 4 requisites: robes, almsfood, dwelling and medicine. "Wisely reflecting he makes use of his robes ... merely to protect himself against cold and heat, etc. Wisely reflecting he makes use of his almsfood... merely as a prop and support to this body.... Wisely reflecting he makes use of his dwelling... merely to keep off the dangers of weather and to enjoy solitude.... Wisely reflecting he makes use of the necessary medicines, merely to suppress feelings of sickness that arise, and to reach perfect freedom from suffering" (cf. M. 2). About these 4 kinds of morality, Vis.M. I gives a detailed exposition." ***** 16746 From: Sarah Date: Thu Nov 7, 2002 0:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] temperaments Hi Larry, You wrote: “Thanks for the kind words. I was just trying to be ecumenical. I don't really see a problem wth A. Sujin's approach except that it seems to make some efforts to invalidate any other method. There really can't be a problem with 'self' view in practicing satipatthana whether one practices for 2 hours at a time or off and on throughout the day because 'self' view can't arise with sati. And if one says I choose not to practice a certain way, that is making a choice. We have to go forward from where we are, baggage and all. We can't wait until we are arahants to take a step.” ..... Hmmmm. You make several useful points to consider. I think the main one is that “'self' view can't arise with sati”.Like Kom said, often it seems you’re saying the opposite to perhaps what he or I would understand, but then you clarify and it turns out there is a lot of common ground. Just as you say here, “We have to go forward from where we are, baggage and all. We can't wait until we are arahants to take a step.” So whether we turn left or right, whether we sit on a cushion for two hours or go to a yoga class/teach/assist a bhikkhu, awareness has to begin to be aware of realities and understanding has to know them for what they are. Similarly, moments of wrong view of self and other kilesa are bound to arise at any of these times, but can also be the object of sati. So I don’t think anyone is suggesting that there is anything to be avoided with regard to ‘practice a certain way’. However, as Jaran and others are discussing, the more rt understanding develops, perhaps the less tendency there will be to see right practice as anything other than a particular kind of citta, accompanied by specific factors, especially right understanding. ***** You also wrote: “I was a little confused about what you said about why we can't choose to look for a self. We are many months from getting to this topic (dhammanupassana) in the commentary and I haven't read ahead but I have heard that looking for a self is a good way of finding that there isn't one. This would apply to any compound or apparent whole whether a person or something else like the 'self' (identity) of a carriage. "Self" is actually a concept and can't be experienced. This is a good reason to understand, at least tentatively, what can and cannot be experienced (concept & reality). Experience = reality. But it is a little tricky seeing what exactly we are experiencing.” ..... I don’t think this relates anymore to dhammanupassana than to the study of any other aspects of satipatthana.Just as you say, there is no self to be found because it is merely a concept which cannot be experienced. We’re in complete agreement here, Larry. When there is the looking or thinking about it, the concept is a concept and the reality which can be known is the thinking. I really like the rest of your comments. As you suggest, it is essential to understand the distinction between what can and cannot be experienced. So what is being experienced now? The 5 khandhas,i.e namas and rupas, i.ethe 4 satipatthanas only. A little tricky due to limited sati and panna, but understanding as you explain here is the important fuel for them to grow. Sarah ====== 16747 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Nov 7, 2002 0:25am Subject: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation" --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., James Mitchell wrote: > Robert, > > IIf my hands and face are clean, I am more > alert and not sluggish. If my shoes are off I am more > peaceful and 'at home'. If I sit up in a chair while > reading the dhamma, I am less likely to fall asleep or > have my mind wander while I am reading. Really, I > think I follow these rules for practicality and not > really respect. ____________ This makes sense. In the satipatthana sutta atthakatha it notes that cleaning the body and surroundings is supportive of the development wisdom . Then again if we cling to this we might avoid reading Dhamma books just before going to sleep at night. > > Robert, I think you and I have different definitions > of what it means to 'study' dhamma. To me, to study > dhamma means that I am reading or listening to the > teachings of the Buddha. I don't believe that eating, > drinking, lying down or standing up can be related in > any way to Dhamma study; those things are Dhamma > practice when one practices mindfulness. And though > it could be aruged that practice is actually study in > it own way, for all practical purposes they are two > different things. >_______ I think my teachers have always emphasised that study and practice shouldn't be separated out. If we see them as different things we might see the Abhidhamma as something to think about, like chemistry, rather than descriptions of what is happening now, dhammas to be directly insighted. While we are reading a Dhamma book there is seeing and visible object, there is feeling, there is sanna, sankhara and many other realities as explained in the satipatthana sutta. They can be known there and then. Likewise when there are activities like urinating, talking, laughing, crying there are the same realities that we read about in the Dhamma. There to be 'studied'. Of course no rules that we have to do this or that, or see it this way or that way. I much appreciate your respect for Dhamma, James. Robert 16748 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Nov 7, 2002 1:12am Subject: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation" James, There are 2889 suttas in the Samyutta Nikaya but very few are on-line at ATI or anywhere else. The Sutta I am referring to is not on-line. This sutta where a group of monks kill themselves (or get others to kill them) is in the Mahavagga Ch. X Anapanasamyutta 'Connected Discourses on Breathing'. The Anapanasamyutta has 20 Suttas but ATI only has one on-line. ('Ananda Sutta'). http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html#Maha The one you are looking for is 9 (9) 'At Vesali' and is on page 1773 of a hard copy translation of "The Connected Discourses of the Buddha" A New Translation of the Samyutta Nikaya by Bhikkhu Bodhi. This comes in two volumes 2074 pages in total. (Wisdom, 2000). I am happy to type it out for you if you can't borrow a copy of the Samyutta and photocopy or scan it. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., James Mitchell wrote: > Robert, > > I received your post while I have been searching high > and low for the sutta Christine refers to that I > should be able to find in the Samyutta Nikaya, section > IX (Christine, I still can't find it...please send me > the link where you found it.) 16749 From: Sarah Date: Thu Nov 7, 2002 1:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Parenthetical Citations Hi James & Chris & All, --- James wrote: > Hello Friends, > > I have a question for this group of scholars. I am quite confused > about the uniform way to cite Buddhist scripture in parenthetical > citations. For example, I went to the Buddhist Dictionary Antony > hyperlinked and I found this type of parenthetical cite: > (See A. VI, 102; A. VII, 48; Ud. IV, 1; S. XXII, 102) .... I'm not a scholar, but I don't mind adding a note;-) I saw Chris gave a reference to the text abbreviations. in addition, unless otherwise specified, I think you'll find most references are to the pali texts themselves which are always included in hard copies and in most on-line ones. This doesn't always work as with the first ref I tried here;-( Next, I'd try Bk of 6s, section 102. and come up with "Without Reserve" about the 6 advantages to establish the und of impermanence about all phenomena.....I don't know if it's right. Usually I check with the context or key words to be sure which I don't have here. To complicate matters, some references are very sloppy (we had a lot of trouble tracking down some in footnotes in 'What the Buddha Taught' I remember) and Thanissaro's numbering can be quite different from other translations without any pali reference. Also as B.Bodhi mentioned, different translators use different titles. ***** When I have time I'm looking forward to trying out the search tips which you and Chris kindly shared. Rob M copied the entire archives onto disc for his own use and Jon tells me he uses the same search method as you to find useful material in the DSG archives. I've only ever used a search engine a few times. In my post to you on the vinaya, what I did was to just relax for a couple of days and reflect on what I know (or don't know) , mostly learnt from a deceased monk, who Nina, Jon & Azita will remember, had the finest and most detailed knowledge of vinaya. Indeed he gave up many 'rains' to re-ordain when he found out his original ordination ceremony had not been conducted in correct Pali as prescribed. He also once gave me a lecture on the very points you mentioned - I was learning by my mistakes. On the other hand, he would listen to a lay person speak dhamma, would write letters, whilst keeping aloof and I'm sure would see the benefit of contributing comments to DSG, though possibly not directly participating - I'm not sure. So after having an idea of where I think my reply is likely to be heading, I have fun pulling out (in this case) several vinaya texts on the floor (or dare I say it, in bed -oops) and either go straight to what I'm looking for or use an index. I make it fun and usually get as side-tracked as Chris does on google. The small book that I referred to as being particularly useful in this case was "The Entrance to the Vinaya - Vinayamukha vol1". my copy is over 30yrs old and was published in Bkk by King Maha Makuta's Academy. It has the rules and a lot of useful info. Perhaps Sukin or Rob K could try to pick up a copy for you if it's still available and we could then both study more from our armchairs (or floor in my case). I've always found all aspects of the vinaya very useful to reflect on and relevant to daily life as well as helping me to understand the monk's lfe. I was reflecting on some of the rules and doing my best to be mindful of what was appropriate as I collected B.Bodhi and accompanied him to see Dr Ma this morning. There were plenty of tests along the way - in the taxi, crossing roads, walking up flights of stairs, sitting in the waiting room and so on. It was a delightful experience and we managed to have some brief but pleasant discussion on 'luminous mind', his trip to China, the value of discussing dhamma with different understandings calmly and pleasantly, and so on. He's always very considerate. Fortunately, Dr Ma is very optimistic about the treatment too. Look forward to hearing more internet study tips or how others work here too. Sarah ====== 16750 From: abhidhammika Date: Thu Nov 7, 2002 2:52am Subject: Nibbana Has No Love And Compassion: To James Dear James How are you? You wrote the following in reply to WL, "..and the peace, love, compassion of Nibbana..." Nibbana is NOT a sentient being. Therefore, it does not have any qualities and attributes that we have such as love or compassion which are, by the way, emotions. I think that you seem to mistakenly be equating Brahma/God (Sentient Beings) with Nibbana that is totally devoid of any sentientness. With kind regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., James Mitchell wrote: > Dear WL, > > Yes, I think we are after the same things, just > looking at them from different angles. For example, I 16751 From: Sarah Date: Thu Nov 7, 2002 3:44am Subject: On Luminous Mind (from Bhikkhu Bodhi) This is a letter from Bhikkhu Bodhi in reply to DSG posts on this topic ************************************************************************ Dear Jonothan and Sarah, Here follow a few thoughts on the controversial passage about the ?pabhassaram cittam? (luminous mind), which occupied the attention of your DSG last year. First of all, the expression should not be translated as ?pure mind,? which a number of the participants in that discussion (including, somewhat surprisingly, Nina) hastily assumed. Pure mind would be ?visuddham cittam?.Usually the word ?pabhassaram?, in relation to ?cittam?, occurs in descriptions of the fourth jhaana, as e.g. in the sutta at AN III 100 (in the PTS?s faulty edition). To my knowledge, the generalized statement about the ?luminous mind? occurs, in the Nikayas, only at AN I 10, in two suttas on the same page (of the Pali text): one without qualification, the other with a brief expansion. A cautious principle that I follow is to avoid constructing novel interpretations of the Dhamma on the basis of a few isolated canonical passages, particularly those in verse (not the case here). It is always best to build one?s interpretations upon those ideas that are found repeatedly in the Nikayas, and then to assume that any apparently deviant statement can somehow be interpreted in a way consistent with these main ?building blocks? of interpretation. Thus I would be reluctant to see in the statement about a luminous mind the recognition of some kind of absolute subjective reality hidden within the ordinary citta, a forerunner of the ?tathagata-garbha? of later Mahayana thought. On the other hand, I would also be hesitant to utilize concepts from the later, technical Theravada system (particularly a relatively late Abhidharmic concept like the bhavanga) to make sense of such an apparently non-technical and generalized statement found in the suttas. I can?t give a definitive interpretation of the ?luminous mind?, one that can be supported beyond doubt by other passages from the Nikayas, but ? assuming that the statement does not refer to the mind clarified by the fourth jhana ? I would tentatively interpret it something like this: In its own nature, on all occasions of experience (even in unwholesome acts of consciousness), citta possesses a certain luminosity which enables it to ?illuminate? the objective field. Just as a lamp can illuminate a room, or as the sun illuminates the world, so the citta illuminates its objective field. This luminous capacity is always present in any citta, but in the rcase of akusala cittas, the ?adventitious defilements? (aagantuka upakkilesa) rdim that luminosity and prevent it from illuminating objects ?as they really rare? (yathaabhuuta). The noble disciple has seen the possibility of eradicating rthe defilements right down to the level of latent tendency, and thus knows rthat the citta is not intrinsically corrupted by the defilements. Such a rdisciple knows that with suitable mental development, the defilements can rbe uprooted, and when this occurs the citta will shine forth in its intrinsic rluminosity no longer dimmed by the mental defilements. This does not imply rthat the citta is a metaphysical absolute, an indestructible core of subjectivity; reach citta too is subject to arise and pass away, but now the cittas shine rforth brightly on each occasion of their arising. P.S. There was an inquiry in one letter about where the bhavanga first appears rin Buddhist texts. I believe it is referred to in the Pa.t.thaana, but only rin a few passages. Most the names for the cittas that we are familiar with rcome from the commentaries. In canonical Abhidhamma, the cittas are usually rdesignated according to the older system of nomenclature: e.g., a rmanovi~n~naa.nadhaatu rof such and such qualifications. Long ago I read an article by Lance Cousins r(new president of PTS) entitled something like ?The Pa.t.thaana and the rConcept of the Bhavanga? ? it was in a PTS Journal, perhaps 1980 or 1981. rIf you check the PTS website, they have the contents of the old journals rlisted, and you should be able to find it there (our web connection is repeatedly rbreaking after a couple of minutes, hence I won?t search for it now). Metta, Bhikkhu Bodhi 16752 From: James Mitchell Date: Thu Nov 7, 2002 6:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nibbana Has No Love And Compassion Dear James How are you? You wrote the following in reply to WL, "..and the peace, love, compassion of Nibbana..." Nibbana is NOT a sentient being. Therefore, it does not have any qualities and attributes that we have such as love or compassion which are, by the way, emotions. I think that you seem to mistakenly be equating Brahma/God (Sentient Beings) with Nibbana that is totally devoid of any sentientness. With kind regards, Suan Hi Suan, I am doing great. How are you? Well, I guess you are going to throw the big question at me: What is Nibbana? You are quick to tell me what it isn’t, but you don’t tell me what it is. And I have been reading the other thread related to this and it seems like I am missing something. There are a lot of words in those posts but little I can see as answers. ??? So, anyway, I am going to answer the question: What is Nibbana? (From my perspective) I am going to address Nibbana on the conventional level and the ultimate level. Conventional: What did the Buddha say we all should cultivate, without distinction, without categorization, without limit, without condition? Answer: Peace, Love, and Compassion. What did the Buddha say was without distinction, without categorization, without limit, without condition? Answer: Nibbana. Suan, can’t you take a hint from the Buddha? It only stands to reason that Nibbana, which is real, would manifest itself in our minds in various ways. It is with the mind that one sees Nibbana. Mind and Nibbana are linked. Ultimate: Nama is impermanent and conditioned. Rupa is impermanent and conditioned. Nibbana is permanent and unconditioned. So what is Nibbana? It seems to me that Nibbana is both Nama and Rupa. Looking at the atomic level, we see that our universe is composed of the same Neutrons, Protons, and Electrons in various combinations. These combinations are impermanent and conditioned. But the sub-atomic particles are permanent and unconditioned. Nibbana is at the atomic level, the elemental level, the material level, and the cosmic level. With Metta, James ps. I removed my name from the subject line. There shouldn't be any personal messages for me...anyone can answer. ===== Two men look out the same prison bars; one sees mud and the other stars. ~ Frederick Langbridge ~ 16753 From: Date: Thu Nov 7, 2002 3:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: to appreciate Buddhist goal of parinibbana1 Hi, Robert - A couple comments from me near the end, Robert. In a message dated 11/7/02 2:59:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > > --- > Dear Howard, > You write: " > > "It seems quite possible that the already radically > transformed mind > >(mental functioning, not a self) of the arahant, already > indescribable, > >liberated (from all defilements), and untraceable, is *not* > annihilated at > >death, but is further liberated - finally and completely liberated, > by the > >extinction of the five senses. This would be exactly "vi~n~nanam > anidassanam > >anantam sabbato paham"; that is, "discernment, non-manifestive, > infinite, > >accessible from all round"."" > > So in a few words I think you are saying that upon the death of the > arahant the five sense organs cease but somehow, in some way, a > transformed vinnana (consciousness)of undescribable purity etc. > continues on. > > You suggest that the sutta I quoted from the Itivuttaka allows this > interpretation. > > A while back Jim Anderson researched the commentary to this sutta and > translated it > for us. Here is the relevant part: > > Itv-a I 167> siitibhavissantii ti accantavuupasamena > sa"nkhaaradarathapa.tippassaddhiyaa siitalii bhavissanti, > appa.tisandhika-nirodhena nirujjhissantii ti attho. na kevala.m > vedayitaani > yeva sabbepi pana khii.naasava-santaane pa~ncakkhandhaa > nirujjhissanti. > vedayitasiisena desanaa kataa. > Roughly translated: > "will become cool" -- will become cool with absolute calm, with the > tranquillization of the anxiety of the formations, the meaning > is: 'will cease with the non-rebirth-linking-cessation'. Not just the > sensed alone but all the five aggregates in the continuum of a canker- > waned one will cease also. A teaching with the 'sensed' as head is > made."end translation. > ---------- > Thus your question: "What are the "groups of existence still > remaining" through which > >feelings are experienced, and which become extinct at death? The > five sense > >organs. Not the *six* sense organs. The *five*. Why the omission of > the mind? > >Was it meant, but not said? Since when was the Buddha not precise?" > > The five aggregates mentioned in the commentary above include all six > sense organs thus when the Itivutaka said "And what is the Nibbana- > element with no groups remaining? In > that case a monk is an arahant..in him those feelings no longer > relished , will even here (at his death) come to extinction. > This is called the Nibbana-element with no groups of existence > remaining.""" > I think it is clear what is meant: vinnana and all conditioned > phenomena ceases upon khandha parinibbana; the long, long round of > birth and deaths is finally ended. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: This is *not* clear to me. What has *already* ended for the arahant is the discernment of separate, self-existent entities and also any sense of an agent and experiencer. With death, the realms of sight, sound, taste, touch, and smell are no longer available for being discerned at all. One might use a silly, modern metaphor as follows: Samsara consists of a sentient TV set which moves constantly from channel to channel, no one of them being satisfactory, something always hopefully better somewhere else, and each of them being taken to be a "reality". With the advent of nibbana with remainder, the shows on the various channels still play, but there it no longer matters which one plays, for they are all just mock shows. With the advent of nibbana without remainder, nothing is broadcast any longer. The trouble is, the metaphor is no good, because the TV set appears as kind of agent. Actually, the set, itself, is one of the channels, and nothing real or self-existent! There is no agent, and, in fact, nothing separate or substantial is to be found anywhere, neither as subject nor object. What reality is can be pointed to by many metaphor-fingers, but all of them are seen, upon careful analysis, to be off the mark and to to point crookedly. One of the worst metaphors, I believe, is that reality is absolute nothingness. That metaphor-finger is the finger of nihilism, which widely misses the middle way, as does the corresponding finger on the other hand, the metaphor-finger of substantialism. The fact that no one can come up with an adequate metaphor for the way things are should not be taken by us as justification for pointing with either of these crooked fingers. ----------------------------------------------------- > Robert > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16754 From: James Date: Thu Nov 7, 2002 10:16am Subject: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation" Christine, It is very nice to offer to type it out for me but I wouldn't want to bother you with that. I will go to the public library or university library this weekend and see if I can find it. I would like the entire Pali Canon on CD. Is that available? Maybe Santa will be good to me this year! :-) Thanks. Metta, James 16755 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Nov 7, 2002 10:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 21, anupassanaa, contemplating Dear Larry, Kom answered you about the four great Elements and derived rupas. I could add: visible object does not float around by itself, it needs solidity, the other great Elements and derived rupas. But only one rupa can impinge on the eyesense, ayatanas (bases) are associating, so that there can be seeing. A harsh sound can hurt our ears, or even destroy a building. There is solidity which can hurt, but only sound arising together in a group of rupas can impinge on earsense, ayatanas are associating so that we can hear. Your other questions: L: Is the fine discrimination of all the various dhammas in the abhidhamma really necessary? Or could we just see whatever arises as foul, painful, impermanent, or not self? N: Let the study of Abh come naturally, it is not necessary to start at the beginning of the book and go in order, but it depends on someone's interest what he studies. When you are interested in a particular subject and look this up you will see: from one thing comes another. Most important is to really consider what you study and see its relevance in your own life. It is helpful to understand some basic notions, what nama and rupa are, knowing something about processes. Otherwise you may wonder how sati can be aware of akusala, since sati cannot arise in the same process, but, it can be aware of the characteristic of akusala which has just fallen away. It is good to know what akusala is and what kusala, and to verify this right now. You ask: Or could we just see whatever arises as foul, painful, impermanent, or not self? N:This is the result of a long process of developing understanding, stumbling along, wondering what sati is, when it arises, with ups and downs. Understanding grows, but it may hardly be perceptible, it has its own tempo. It is not as rapidly growing as we wish. "L: So seeing consciousness as impermanent, perception and formation as not self, feeling as pain, and internal materiality as foul is, in brief, the sum total of the vipassana aspect of satipatthana. Correct?" N: As Jaran said, all conditioned dhammas have these characteristics, but we should not expect to know them in the beginning. Jaran reminds us that we should realize how deeply engrained the idea of self is. Realizing this is a beginning of understanding. As Jaran writes, And: Jaran reminds us to be brave and face any reality, even akusala, to be brave and honest with ourselves. Thus, the attitude is so important, right from the beginning. L: Also, I was > wondering about the word "anupassanaa". Is the meaning something like > 'minutely observing'? N: passanaa, from passati, to see, to realize. We have this root also in vipassana. Jim once wrote about the name of the Bodhisatta Vipassii: A reminder: vipassana is the development of understanding. The particle anu: it can mean: along, towards or in conformity with, following after. Kaayaanupassii: the long i at the end can indicate: continuously, habitually. Later on in the Co you will see how one should contemplate: it is not just thinking, or concentrating, it is the understanding of the true nature. But before we are at that level, it is necessary to thoroughly investigate the characteristic of the dhamma appearing now. You say minutely observing: but not with an idea of, "I have to observe". BTW, you asked: Assaadassa, this is the genitive form of assaado: meaning, of enjoyment. It is a description of lobha, not of piti. Nina. > 16756 From: James Date: Thu Nov 7, 2002 10:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Parenthetical Citations Sarah, So kind of you to offer for the book. Let me do some searching and see if I can come up with it on my own; if not, I will contact you off list and you can type the book out for me...just kidding ;-). I found your post very interesting. And I only have one comment: "Silly Rabbit, beds are for sleeping!" :-) Metta, James 16757 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Nov 7, 2002 0:10pm Subject: Re: Nibbana Has No Love And Compassion Hello Suan, and All, I am reading the Useful Posts on Nibbana (25 of them) and also the discussion between RobK and Howard and am learning a lot. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Would you be able to post something over the next couple of days about what Nibbana could be, and what it isn't, please? Only if you have the time, of course. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "abhidhammika" wrote: > > > Dear James > > How are you? > > You wrote the following in reply to WL, > > "..and the peace, love, compassion of Nibbana..." > > Nibbana is NOT a sentient being. Therefore, it does not have any > qualities and attributes that we have such as love or compassion > which are, by the way, emotions. > > I think that you seem to mistakenly be equating Brahma/God (Sentient > Beings) with Nibbana that is totally devoid of any sentientness. > > With kind regards, > > Suan > > http://www.bodhiology.org > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., James Mitchell wrote: > > Dear WL, > > > > Yes, I think we are after the same things, just > > looking at them from different angles. For example, I 16758 From: Date: Thu Nov 7, 2002 3:19pm Subject: Way 22, Comm. "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html Commentary continued on "Here, Bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating the body in the body..." In this body, apart from the above mentioned collection, there is seen no body, man, woman or anything else. Beings engender wrong belief, in many ways, in the bare groups of things mentioned above. Therefore the men of old said: What he sees that is not (properly) seen; What is seen, that he does not (properly) see; Not seeing (properly) he is shackled clean; And he, the shackled fool, cannot get free. [Tika] "What he sees" = What man or woman he sees. Why, is there no seeing of man or a woman with the eye? There is. "I see a woman," "I see a man." -- these statements refer to what he sees by way of ordinary perception. That perception, owing to wrong comprehension, does not get at the sense-basis [rupayatana] in the highest sense, philosophically, through the falsely determined condition of material form [viparita gahavasena miccha parikappita rupatta]. [T] Or the meaning is: the absence of perception which is called the seeing of primary and derived materiality, beginning with things such as the hair of the head, owing to non-cognizability of the collective nature of an object like a man or woman by eye-consciousness [kesadibhutupadaya samuhasankhatam ditthi na hoti acakkhuviññana viññeyyatta]. [T] "What is seen that he does not properly see" = He does not see, according to reality by the eye of wisdom, the sense-basis which exists, the collection of primary and derived materiality beginning with hair of the head and the like [yam rupayatanam kesadibhutupadaya samuhasankhatam dittham tam pañña-cakkhuna bhutato na passati]. [T] "Not seeing properly he is shackled" = Not seeing this body as it actually is, with the eye of wisdom, he thinks: "This is mine, this am I, this is my self," and is bound with the fetter of defilement [imam attabhavam yathabhutam paññacakkhuna apassanto etam mama esohamasmi eso me attati kilesa bandhanena bajjhati]. 16759 From: Date: Thu Nov 7, 2002 4:38pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Way 21, Comm. Hi Kom, Thanks for your elucidations. A couple of things that occured to me as well: 1. Contemplating the collection of the elements of rupa reveals that there is nothing inside. In the suttas 'emptiness' always refers to an empty container. In this case the container is the collection of elements. So if anyone may wonder, 'emptiness' is not the same as nibbana. 2. I was wondering about the relationship between foulness and tranquility. The one doesn't seem to lead to the other in my limited experience. For one thing, foulness is unpleasant and tranquility is pleasant. So to resolve this conflict I thought maybe foulness could be classified as the insight aspect of kayanupassana. However, I don't really have much experience with contemplating foulness so who knows where it would lead beyond to not clinging to the body. 3. As to what is different about rupa in kayanupassana and in dhammanupassana, rupa is isolated in 'body' but included with the other khandhas in 'dhamma'. Rupa is contemplated as a collection of elements in 'body' and (possibly?) as one part of the collection of khandhas in 'dhamma'. One might think rupa is foul because there is nothing inside or one might see that rupa is not self because of what? impermanence? I suppose this will be explained in the 'dhamma' section. Larry 16760 From: Date: Thu Nov 7, 2002 5:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] temperaments Hi Sarah, Thanks for the notes on purification of virtue. The only thing I would add to your comments on temperaments is that mindfulness of body, feeling, consciousness, and dhamma amounts to perceptions of ugliness, suffering, impermanence and not self, respectively, as per the section on why 4 satipatthanas. Also, tranquility is cultivated in body and feeling while insight is cultivated in consciousness and dhamma. I'm understanding these as being useful ways of understanding and using the 4 satipatthanas but not as rigid necessities. Each satipatthana and each of the 21 satipatthana practices could be a complete path to lokutarra magga (this is a little speculative), but I'm sure we will learn more about all of this as we go along. Larry 16761 From: Date: Thu Nov 7, 2002 5:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 21, anupassanaa, contemplating Dear Nina, Thanks for your detailed explanation and sensible advice. One question. Could you give me a little pali lesson? I thought the 'anu' that means little or small was the 'anu' in anupassanaa and that it therefor meant contemplation of details. But apparently this is wrong. Could you explain? Thanks Larry 16762 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Nov 7, 2002 9:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] temperaments Dear Larry, It is useful to consider many aspects of satipatthana. In the section on satipatthana in the Abhidhamma the commentary the "Dispeller of Delusion" PTS) p 137 paragraph 564 says "In respect of the classification of the Foundations of Mindfulness. And this also takes place in multiple consciousness in the prior stage (prior to supramundane). For it lays hold of the body with one consciousness and with others feeling etc." We can check if this is the way things are in life. Is it sometimes that feelings are predominant and at the next moment rupa or attachment etc? Robert --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Thanks for the notes on purification of virtue. The only thing I would > add to your comments on temperaments is that mindfulness of body, > feeling, consciousness, and dhamma amounts to perceptions of ugliness, > suffering, impermanence and not self, respectively, as per the section > on why 4 satipatthanas. Also, tranquility is cultivated in body and > feeling while insight is cultivated in consciousness and dhamma. I'm > understanding these as being useful ways of understanding and using the > 4 satipatthanas but not as rigid necessities. Each satipatthana and each > of the 21 satipatthana practices could be a complete path to lokutarra > magga (this is a little speculative), but I'm sure we will learn more > about all of this as we go along. > > Larry 16763 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Nov 7, 2002 10:16pm Subject: Re: Nibbana Has No Love And Compassion Dear Christine, Do you have the translation of the Udana by Peter masefield? Sarah gave some notes about the Udana before where a good description of nibbana is given. Nibbana is the antithesis of conditioned phenomena. Udana VIII.1 > "There is that dimension where there is neither earth, nor water, nor > fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor > dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of > nothingness, .................... S: I may not have made it clear, that in the Masefield translation and Com notes which I'm using, base is used instead of dimension (as here) in `There is, monks,that base' (tadayatanam) ******************** (p.1012 Udana com): "...The Lord, having thus indicated, face to face, the existence, in its highest sense, of the unconditioned element, next says `Wherein there is neither earth, nor water' and so on so as to indicate its own nature via an elimination of things that are the antithesis thereof. Just as nibbana is nowhere (to be found) amidst conditioned (sankhata) things, since it has as its own nature that which is antithetical to all formations(sankhara), so are all cvonditioned things (not to be found) therein either, for the collection of things conditioned and unconditioned is (a thing) not witnessed......there is neither the earth element whose characteristic is that of hardness, nor the water element whose characteristic is that of oozing, nor the fire element whose characteristic is that of heat, nor the wind element whose characteristic is that of distending......absence therein of the four great elements, the absence of all derived materiality....absence..of any becoming associated with (the world of) sense desires and (the world of) form.....Even though its own nature is one in which there is an absence of forms, there is next said, so as to indicate the absence within nibbana of any of the states belonging to becoming in the formless (sphere), `Nor that base consisting of endless space......nor that base consisting of neither perception nor non-perception'."endquote Robert --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Suan, and All, > > I am reading the Useful Posts on Nibbana (25 of them) and also the > discussion between RobK and Howard and am learning a lot. > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts > Would you be able to post something over the next couple of days > about what Nibbana could be, and what it isn't, please? Only if you > have the time, of course. > > metta, > Christine > angles. For example, I 16764 From: Uan Chih Liu Date: Thu Nov 7, 2002 10:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: to appreciate Buddhist goal of parinibbana Hi James and Christine, I really do not disagree that love, compassion, good will is deep within heart of Buddhism. But really I just want to pose a hard question for the seekers of truth: If one can ahead of time know that the path to truth will ultimately leads to something other than love and compassion, even if it leads to undifferentiated peace, then you will choose not to seek for truth, and would rather live in self-deception? Some more thoughts while reading your posts: James said that "Suffering is extremely easy to see for everyone". Well, I know a lot of people, including myself, so often do not see suffering, or mindful of it. That's why so many of us continue to cling on and succumb to the same way of meaningless busy living day after day. Even when we are mindful, many including myself look for quick answer and quick solution to end the suffering. Some even choose to commit suicide, some choose to deny or give up the path. Or even if they know the path is right, they give themselves all kinds of excuses to stay out of it. Antony's post really served as a rude awakening also for myself, I appreciated it. I have no intention to discourage him from taking the path, if it sounded that way. But I have seen his posts before, and thought that he would not be turned away because of what I said, and I hoped he understood my intentions. If my post was addressed to Star Kid, please be rest assured that I would not use the same approach. With metta, WL 16765 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Nov 7, 2002 10:57pm Subject: Escribe & Trimming (moderator message) Dear All, 1. ESCRIBE =========== Escribe has been inaccessible for most of the last week or so for all lists. We wrote a couple of notes to the admin people but got no reply. We were able to access it twice briefly two days ago and were encouraged to see all the messages had been updated. Hopefully it'll return to normal soon and continue to be a useful search engine for DSG posts and messages by particular writers as well as a back-up of the archives. 2. TRIMMING OF POSTS ==================== The archives now have a fixed limit (imposed on all lists by yahoo) and a couple of people receiving posts in digest form or printing out messages have commented recently on the number of untrimmed posts. We'd appreciate cooperation from everyone. If it's more than an occasional slip, Kom or Sarah may give you a prompt off-line. To keep this simple for us, for members to date, it'll probably just be a subject heading of 'Trim!' or similar with no message. We haven't worked out the penalty for these 'Trim' tickets yet - maybe a photo for the album? Jon & Sarah P.S. comments to Moderator messages off-list only thanks. ---------------------------------------------------------- 16766 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Nov 7, 2002 11:11pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Way 21, Comm. Dear Larry, > -----Original Message----- > From: LBIDD@w... [mailto:LBIDD@w...] > 2. I was wondering about the relationship between > foulness and > tranquility. The one doesn't seem to lead to the > other in my limited > experience. For one thing, foulness is unpleasant > and tranquility is > pleasant. So to resolve this conflict I thought > maybe foulness could be > classified as the insight aspect of > kayanupassana. However, I don't > really have much experience with contemplating > foulness so who knows > where it would lead beyond to not clinging to the body. This is why it is impossible to develop tranquil meditation without the wisdom: 1) To differentiate between kusala and akusala states 2) To know the conditions that cause kusala states arise, and the condition that causes akusala states to arise. The tipitakas mentioned 40 different objects of tranquil meditation. One object doesn't work for everybody. One's accumulation (this life, previous lives) dictates when we see a foul object, if when the citta arises, there is sati mindful of the kusala states. When you hear of death, espeically of a person that you know, you may cringe and feel agitated. However, if you consider that this beloved body too, will soon reach that state: this may bring calm for some people. When you feel happy and attached to your loved ones, if you also think, those too, will soon reach their death. This may bring calm too, for some. This may also bring more energy to develop kusala whenever one can. A. Sujin suggested that when we hear about the Buddha's teaching, we should listen and apply it to ourselves. For example, you may have heard about the story in the commentaries (this story was posted in the past, I believe) about a monkey who was trapped by the glue used by the monkey hunter. The monkey was lured by baits provided by the hunter. When we hear this story, we may feel sorry for the monkey, or we may be amused about the monkey not knowing the trick of the hunter and the potency of the glue. On the other hand, we may also compare the monkey to ourselves, that just like the monkey, we are trapped in samsara by our attachments, and being ignorant, we go about all the wrong way to get away from suffering. > > 3. As to what is different about rupa in > kayanupassana and in > dhammanupassana, rupa is isolated in 'body' but > included with the other > khandhas in 'dhamma'. Rupa is contemplated as a > collection of elements > in 'body' and (possibly?) as one part of the > collection of khandhas in > 'dhamma'. One might think rupa is foul because > there is nothing inside > or one might see that rupa is not self because of > what? impermanence? I > suppose this will be explained in the 'dhamma' section. I think to see that elements are truly foul is panna of the highest degree. Only an Anagami (and Arahants) have escaped from thinking and marking elements as being beautiful. I think (emphasis) that if one truly sees the impermanence of all elements, one can start to understand that they are foul. Until then, we can search the texts of the reason why this is said, or we speculate on.... kom 16767 From: James Date: Fri Nov 8, 2002 5:54am Subject: [dsg] Re: to appreciate Buddhist goal of parinibbana Dear WL, I don't think I have accused you of being uncompassionate or unloving in regards to Buddhism or anything else in life. If I implied that, I apologize. I have known all along that this is a theoretical discussion with nothing personal; any discussion about the nature of nibbana by non-arahants is purely theoretical, if not laughable. J But it is fun, keeps the mind sharp, and perhaps inspires one to continue practice (just from the interest garnered, not the knowledge). I don't believe anyone should follow Buddhism because they are looking forward to nibbana or Parinibbana, Antony or otherwise. Buddhism is best suited for those who can appreciate the journey rather than the destination. But, in regards to what you say about the nature of nibbana, I don't think we are in disagreement now. I don't see any differences between peace, love, and compassion. These are things that are at the conventional level and the ultimate level. I think Howard summarized this whole area of discussion best when he said, to paraphrase, that the nature of nibbana can't be known, but we know that it must contain a certain `consciousness'. After all, if it didn't, the Buddha couldn't have known it or described it even a little. According to the scriptures, one reaches nibbana when nibbana is all the mind knows; when the mind resides in nibbana like a perfect pearl of knowing. If nibbana had no quality of consciousness, that experience would be quite brain dead. But the Buddha knew it, had been there, and said that it is knowable. He didn't describe it as having the qualities of peace, love and compassion, so perhaps I am wrong, or perhaps the Buddha didn't want to describe it that way so that it wouldn't become overly 'alluring' to the bhikkhu and became the sole focus of practice. There were many things the Buddha didn't teach that he knew, by his own admission. And the subsequent arahants kept pretty tight lips also about what they knew. There must be a reason for that. ??? As far as `suffering', I was referring to mundane suffering. We all know death, sorrow, sickness, famine, loss, etc, but if you are referring to the `ultimate suffering', the suffering inherent in all aggregates/conditioned phenomenon, I would agree that that is difficult to see. As non-arahants who practice Buddhism (I`m sure there is some impressive Pali word to insert here, but darned if I know it…), we know that level of suffering only a little bit, and usually not at all, actually. Metta, James 16768 From: abhidhammika Date: Fri Nov 8, 2002 7:56am Subject: Re: Nibbana Has No Love And Compassion Dear Christine, Robert Kirkpatrick, Sarah, WL, and All How are you, Dhamma friends? As Robert quoted Sarah's post on Udana description of nibbana, I won't be duplicating it here. If you do not mind my personal speculation (attanomati), I could have a go at it as follows. Our sentient existence has three characteristics in terms of change, misery, and selflessness. As long as we take part in the loop of sentient existence (Samsaara), we are subject to change and misery. As long as change and misery do not bother us, the concept of liberation from sentient existence is beyond us and will remain meaningless for us. But, we somehow come to the stage of becoming bored with change and misery. With this boredom, the search for escape from change and misery has also begun. Some escape thinkers offered a heaven with a creator God as a place where we would not suffer change and misery. Some escape thinkers offered the bodiless existence (destination of aruupa jhaana) as the solution. some escape thinkers offered the memoryless and mindless existence (destination of asañña jhaana) as the solution. The above three kinds of escape thinkers offered liberation (mokkha) within the position of sentient existence and with firm belief in self. Then, Gotama the Buddha appeared with his unique revolutionary approach to the solution of change and misery. He had discovered that the sentience existence has not only the characteristics of change and misery, but also that of selflessness (anatta). With the discovery of selflessness, the Buddha hit upon the first ever loophole from the multi-layered shell of sentient existence. This loophole is a kind of parallel universe that has no characteristics of matter and mind. In other words, the loophole is the matterless sentienceless state. The Buddha calls it nibbana. Without the proper understanding and realization of selflessness, the concept of matterless sentienceless state will always evade our comprehension. This matterless sentienceless state is beyond sentience existence (apariyaapanna). Only a practitioner of the Noble Eightfold Path who has attained the First Path Insight (Sotaapanna Maggañaa.na) as the minimum, can experience this matterless sentienceless state which will gradually dismantle the support structures for the practitioner's personal sentient existence. This matterless sentienceless state is something for the path practitioner to discover and experience until the moment of the Fourth Path Insight (Arahatta Maggañaa.na) and before support structures for sentient existence run out (anupaadisesa nibbana). After that the path practitioner transcends sentient existence. As the path practitioner can experience the matterless sentienceless state only while he or she has sentient existence, once the support structures for sentient existence run out, he or she no longer needs to undergo change and misery again. In other words, one sentient being has successfully achieved the ultimate sentient extinguishment. This sentient extinguishment of one sentient being who was time- bound, however, does not affect the matterless sentienceless state that is nibbaana, which is timeless. With kind regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" Hello Suan, and All, I am reading the Useful Posts on Nibbana (25 of them) and also the discussion between RobK and Howard and am learning a lot. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Would you be able to post something over the next couple of days about what Nibbana could be, and what it isn't, please? Only if you have the time, of course. metta, Christine 16769 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 8, 2002 10:01am Subject: subco bhikkhu Dear Larry and all, here is the subco passage about bhikkhu, to Way 19. It is uncorrected, but I thought it suitable, since we have just now many posts on the bhikkhu. Good to consider the role of the bhikkhu, his position in the Sangha. bhikkhugocaraa ete dhammaa, yadida.m kaayaanupassanaadayo. N: These dhammas are the field (object) of the bhikkhu, namely, contemplation of the Body, etc. tattha yasmaa kaayaanupassanaadipa.tipattiyaa bhikkhu hoti, tasmaa ``kaayaanupassii viharatii''tiaadinaa bhikkhu.m dasseti, bhikkhumhi ta.m niyamatoti aaha ``pa.tipattiyaa bhikkhubhaavadassanato''ti. N: Here, in as far as he is a bhikkhu by the practice of contemplation of the Body, etc., therefore, with the words, "he abides in contemplation of the body", etc., he shows him as a bhikkhu. Then, he says bhikkhu with this definition, saying, "because of the excellence of the bhikkhu state by way of practice". satthu cariyaanuvidhaayakattaa sakalasaasanasampa.tiggaahakattaa ca sabbappakaaraaya anusaasaniyaa bhaajanabhaavo. N: Since he follows the practice of the Teacher, and accepts the entire dispensation, he is fit to receive manifold instruction. sama.m careyyaati kaayaadivisamacariya.m pahaaya kaayaadiihi sama.m careyya. N: He should practise with calm (evenly), this means, after he has abandoned contrarious behaviour through the body etc., he should practise with calm through the body, etc. raagaadivuupasamena santo. indriyadamena danto. catumagganiyaamena niyato. N: He is calm because of the extinguishment of attachment etc. He is tamed by the restraint of the faculties. He is assured by way of the four Paths. se.t.thacaritaaya brahmacaarii. kaayada.n.daadioropanena nidhaaya da.n.da.m. N: By the best practice he is a person leading the divine life. Because of laying down (abandoning) violence through the body, etc. he is peaceful (having laid down the stick). ariyabhaave .thito so evaruupo baahitapaapasamitapaapabhinnakilesataahi braahma.no sama.no bhikkhuuti veditabbo. Immovable in the ariyan nature, since akusala is removed and calmed and defilements eradicated, he should in this way be known as a brahmin, a recluse. 16770 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 8, 2002 10:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Respect Dear Sarah and James, I have the same copy here of the Entrance to the Vinaya. I can join you and James in the study. I appreciate his respect for the monks. James, it is not weird to pay respect to the Triple Gem, we can do this also before getting the E mail, because, is it not all for the sake of Dhamma? But we can also become attached to the idea of paying respect, it feels so good, I catch myself. Therefore, the best respect is with mindfulness of nama and rupa. If it is not in that way we get caught up with lobha without realizing it. We are trying to concentrate with attachment, trying to hold on to something we like, a special feeling or to confidence, saddhaa. Whereas when we pay respect with awareness of any reality, such as sound, or akusala citta, we do not fix our attention with attachment to one reality. So many different realities arise in between while paying respect. I appreciated Rob K's reminder: < While we are reading a Dhamma book there is seeing and visible object, there is feeling, there is sanna, sankhara and many other realities as explained in the satipatthana sutta. They can be known there and then.> I am so engrossed in study, especially in Pali (it is so difficult) that I forget this. I am so glad Dr Ma can do something for Ven Bodhi. I appreciate your help to him, Anumodana, Nina. op 07-11-2002 10:18 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > The small book that I referred to as being particularly useful in this > case was "The Entrance to the Vinaya - Vinayamukha vol1". my copy is over > 30yrs old and was published in Bkk by King Maha Makuta's Academy. It has > the rules and a lot of useful info. Perhaps Sukin or Rob K could try to > pick up a copy for you if it's still available and we could then both > study more from our armchairs (or floor in my case). I've always found all > aspects of the vinaya very useful to reflect on and relevant to daily life > as well as helping me to understand the monk's lfe. 16771 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 8, 2002 10:01am Subject: luminous, pure . Dear Sarah and all, I read the post from Ven. Bodhi with great interest. He did not agree with the use of pure. I do not know exactly the context he is referring to, but I would just like to quote from the passages about luminous etc. from the co, I translated. This is the translation in part, about the bhavangacitta, and we see that the word parisuddha, pure, is used. Pabhassara.m, pa.n.dara.m and parisuddha.m are used here together. Pabhassarasutta.m with the a.t.thakathaa & Dhammapaala's .tiikaa and translations. AN 1.49 < @at.t.hakathaa 49. navame pabhassaranti pa.n.dara.m parisuddha.m. cittanti bhava"ngacitta.m. ki.m pana cittassa va.n.no naama atthiiti? natthi. N: As to the ninth ,² luminous². Luminous is clear, pure. citta is the life-continuum. But how does there exist indeed a colour of citta? No, it does not. niilaadiina~nhi a~n~natarava.n.na.m vaa hotu ava.n.na.m vaa ya.mki~nci parisuddhataaya ``pabhassara''nti vuccati. N: For anything which may be a certain colour, beginning with blue, or without colour, is called luminous because of its purity. idampi nirupakkilesataaya parisuddhanti pabhassara.m. ta~nca khoti ta.m bhava"ngacitta.m. N: It is also pure, because it is unsoiled (by defilements); thus luminous. That indeed, meaning, that life-continuum. aagantukehiiti asahajaatehi pacchaa javanakkha.ne uppajjanakehi. N: ³ by oncoming ³(defilements). by those that are not conascent with it, but arise later at the moment of impulsion (javana). > The Tiika: 49. navame pabhassaranti pariyodaata.m sabhaavaparisuddha.t.thena. tenaaha--'pa.n.dara.m parisuddhan'ti. N:> With reference to the ninth sutta, „luminous¾ , means very pure because of its natural purity. Therefore he said , . Then there are long passages where pure, parisuddha.m is used. It is interesting that pabhassara.m, pa.n.dara.m and parisuddha.m are used together. As we recently discussed, the Patisambid. states: each citta, also akusala citta is pandaram. As Jaran quoted: it comes from bhavanga, like the river from the source. Ven. Bodhi writes: I agree with the fact that all cittas are luminous in so far as their function is: clearly knowing an object. Here I do not think of knowing realities as they are, yathaabhuuta, that is the function of pa~n~naa. Also akusala citta clearly knows or cognizes an object. The passages on being soiled by adventitous defilements are, in the above quoted co and subco, used for bhavangacittas which are defiled by the javana cittas. I agree with Ven. Bodhi that we should not take isolated passages from texts and then draw conclusions. Ven. Bodhi writes: http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/index.html BTW, your evaluation of DSG as a great group is right on. It is an incredible source of Dhammic knowledge, it is Abhidhamma-oriented but not not Abhidhamma-bound, it is wonderfully tolerant of alternative perspectives, and it is metta-ful!! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16819 From: Date: Sat Nov 9, 2002 11:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: luminous, pure . Hi, all - In a message dated 11/9/02 7:23:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: > it is Abhidhamma-oriented but not not > Abhidhamma-bound, ======================== The double negative was just a typo, and not a Freudian slip! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16820 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Nov 9, 2002 4:46pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Way 21, Comm. Dear Larry, > -----Original Message----- > How about discussing dhammas to show off, or to > feel better > about oneself (as compared to others)? You can > notice that > the mental states are crooked (for doing one thing to > achieve another purpose), an opposite of > Kaya-passaddhi and > citta-passaddhi, this is again akusala. One mistake (at least) here. Opposite of kaya-ujukata and citta-ujukata. kom 16821 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Nov 9, 2002 4:59pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: luminous, pure . Dear James, > -----Original Message----- > From: James Mitchell [mailto:buddhatrue@y...] > doesn’t appear to be the case at all. I have seen > instance after instance of members jumping to reassure > anyone who has doubt, frustration, or confusion about > Buddhism…and without being superior about it. Okay, I > will continue to plunge onward into the Abhidhamma, > there must be something to it I am missing. I should > give it a fair chance because I have witnessed the > wisdom and compassion of those who embrace it I am I also think, in agreement with you, that there are many people in DSG with metta and compassion who are willing to help others better understand what the Buddha teaches. People don't agree on everything (as expected), but I do get that feeling that many share one goal: to truly understand the dhamma, and ultimately nibbana. In regard to Pali usage, thanks for the reminder not to be too liberal with the usage. Most of the Pali words I used (although frequently mispelled) recently can be found in Nina's Cetasikas at: http://www.zolag.co.uk/cetfinal.html There are also many other works full of pali, abhidhamma, and teachings of the Buddha at: http://www.zolag.co.uk/ebook.html kom 16822 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Nov 9, 2002 5:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Nibbana As The Matterless And Sentienceless State Dear Suan, Howard and everyone, I am reading here and there about Nibbana and consciousness. I was reading the Brahmanimantanika Sutta MN 49 (Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi translation) How I got there was from note 1 of the Maha-punnama Sutta MN109 I'm stepping off the safe sandbank here into water over my head. Have mercy! :) May somebody explain verse 25 to me, and also, what do you reckon about note 1 below seeming to state there is a form of eternal consciousness? verse 25: "The consciousness that makes no showing, And in becoming about to disbecome, Not claiming being with respect to all." Note 1:MN109: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn109.html 1. One form of consciousness apparently does not come under the aggregate of consciousness. This is termed viññanam anidassanam -- consciousness without a surface, or consciousness without feature. MN 49 says specifically that this consciousness does not partake of the "allness of the all," the "all" being conterminous with the five aggregates. The standard definition of the aggregate of consciousness states that this aggregate includes all consciousness, "past, present, or future... near or far." However, because viññanam anidassanam stands outside of space and time it would not be covered by these terms. Similarly, where SN XXII.97 says that no consciousness is eternal, "eternal" is a concept that applies only within the dimension of time, and thus would not apply to this form of consciousness. says that no consciousness is eternal, "eternal" is a concept that applies only within the dimension of time, and thus would not apply to this form of consciousness. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Suan - > > In a message dated 11/9/02 6:45:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, > suanluzaw@b... writes: > > > > > By the way, Howard's concept of nibbaana seems to be a form of > > bodiless jhaana comsciousness very similar to Nevasaññaa > > Naasaññaayatana Brahmaa's life. Uddaka who taught Nevasaññaa > > Naasaññaayatana Jhaana to the Siddhatta Gotama before the Buddha > > discovered nibbana, now lives in the world of Nevasaññaa > > Naasaññaayatana Brahmaa, wasting his time trilliums of world years by > > mistakenly believing the state of bodiless consciousness to be > > nibbaana. Think about it, Howard. :) > > > > > ========================== > A couple comments in reply: I really have no firm concept of nibbana > other than 1) it being the absence of suffering and the three poisons, and 2) > it not being an absolute nothingness. Moreover the notion of > nibbana/parinibbana as "vi~n~nanam anidassanam anantam sabbato paham" is not > "Howard's concept of nibbaana," but was expressed by the Buddha, and the fact > that to you it "seems to be a form of bodiless jhaana consciousness very > similar to Nevasaññaa Naasaññaayatana Brahmaa's life" certainly doesn't imply > that this is what the Buddha had in mind. > > With metta, > Howard 16823 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Nov 9, 2002 5:49pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: To Rahula from Bhikkhu Bodhi I second Robert's opinion about this being a boon. I very much enjoy reading his translations, sometimes, over the Thai translations that I have. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: rjkjp1 [mailto:rjkjp1@y...] > Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2002 9:41 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Re: To Rahula from Bhikkhu Bodhi > > > --- > Dear sarah, > I think I speak for the whole group when I say > how thrilled I am to > see Ven. Bodhi replying to these difficult > threads. It is a major > boon to all of us on dsg. > I hope he can contribute regularly/occasionally > (of course only when > he has time and inclination). I think there would > be 99% of the group > who use his translations. His essay on > Paticcasamuppada in the > introduction to the mahadinana sutta is a > masterpiece and was very > helpful when I wrote the series of letters > earlier in the year. > Robert 16824 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Nov 9, 2002 6:23pm Subject: Meeting with A. Sujin Dear group, I met with Sujin yesrday and consider the discussion excellent. Num, Sukin and myself asked a few questions but almost all of it was with A. Sujin talking. Much about carita (temperments) in the satipathana sutta . She pointed out a refernce in the Netti-pakorn where there are 19 temperaments or even more. Pieces about stages of vipssana. About choosing objects . (Choosing is not the way - but one will realise , naturally, that he has accumulations for one object over another. because this apears to panna more frequently. Eventually all objects must be known). For those with some pali knowledge the tapes may be worth having. robert 16825 From: Star Kid Date: Sat Nov 9, 2002 10:25pm Subject: to Mom Bongkojpriya ... sawadee ka! Dear Mom Bongkojpriya, Sawadee ka ! I was really happy that you replied because i didnt really expect anyone to reply so thankyou so much. Marisa Chearavanont is my mothers name , she is Korean so i dont think its her and my thai name is Tanyatip Chearavanont , my engilsh name is Jan. About Mr. Walsh-till(thats the correct spelling,i made a mistake on my other e-mail.) he went to year 7 camp(that's my grade) the day before he was reported missing. :'( I also agree the beauty of buddhism. Every night I pray to the buddha and I got so used to doing that, If I dont i wont be able to sleep or the next day i would forget somthing or get in trouble by my teachers(THIS IS VERY TRUE!!!) I always wanted to ask an American this, are you a buddhist or a Christian? Well I really hope you will reply soon Love Jan Tanyatip Chearavanont 16826 From: Star Kid Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 2:57am Subject: a letter form Charles Bleach Dear Jan, I don't know much about Buddhism.What was your poem? I cant really say anything because I'm only 8 years old. I almost forgot my name is Charles. I come from Hong Kong. I like playing football, swimming and gym. I like animals such as eagle's, rabbits, rats, pigeon's and hawks and I like race cars. I understood everything in the letters about Buddhism. I think we never really die we just get reborn as a human if we are good, if your very good you get reborn as a god, if your nice you get reborn as an animal, if your bad you get reborn as an insect. My parents are very nice people. My father is a barrister, he likes painting with me. My mother is the head of BVLGARI (the V is a U) and they just divorced. My nationality is half English a quarter French and a quarter of Vietnamese. From Charles P.S : Jan helped me type this up. 16827 From: Sarah Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 3:06am Subject: with bated breath - escribe Hi all, Escribe has been working with no problems for the last 24 hours, so maybe it’s a little less impermanent than feared;-) Besides the search functions, I also find it useful for a quick glance of the posts http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ Sarah ===== 16828 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 4:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Elements of Thinking/Contemplation in Vipassana Bhavana Howard Sorry to have been the cause of your confusion ;-)). Let me try to explain. I think we agree that there is such a thing as awareness of the presently arising phenomena without choosing or limiting the object, but we disagree as to how that may occur. I'm saying that can only occurs if there is no directed attention or deliberate training, because whenever these are present there must be, however subtly, a limiting or choosing of the object. Also, I was trying to make the point that practice that is not right practice from the beginning can never somehow 'become' right practice further down the track, which is something I found to be implicit in the proposition that 'at less developed levels of understanding there must be a limiting/choosing of the object, while at more developed levels the limiting/choosing drops away' (my précis of your position). You may not agree, but I hope at least I have managed to 'undo' the confusion ;-)) Jon --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > In a message dated 10/27/02 4:04:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, > jonoabb@y... writes: > > > Howard > > > > If I understand you correctly, Howard, you are saying > > that at less developed levels of understanding there > > must be a limiting/choosing of the object, while at > > more developed levels the limiting/choosing drops > > away. > > > > I know this is a common perception among those who > > follow a ‘directed attention’ strategy, but I believe > > it may be a questionable approach. If > > ‘limiting/choosing’ the object is not what the Buddha > > in fact taught, then this practice could never lead to > > right understanding. > > > > I do believe it’s possible from the beginning for > > there to be awareness that arises without any limiting > > or choosing of the object of awareness. > > > > Jon > > > ========================= > Jon, what you say here confuses me. It seems to be the exact > > *opposite* of what you wrote below. And you seem to be interpreting > what I am > saying as the exact opposite of what I mean as well. You said the > following: > > *********************** > Howard > > In your post below you say of 'informal meditation': > < "getting > lost".>> > > “Seeingâ€? here is another word for “attending toâ€?. But if > you think about > it, there cannot be “attending toâ€? something without a clear > idea of what > the “somethingâ€? is. Even when we call it “whatever > arisesâ€?, there has to > be an idea of what that might possibly be, and so there is, in > effect, it > seems to me, a specifying or limiting of the object at that moment > of > directed attention. > > Jon > ********************************* > > In fact, it was exactly my point that it *is* possible to be > aware of > simply whatever arises, without preselection or limi > tation. My point was that it is possible by means of a trained > readiness of > mind and attention to be mindful and clearly comprehending of > whatever should > happen to arise at any moment. However, it is more difficult for > the > untrained mind to do this than the trained mind. That's all. > > With metta, > Howard > 16829 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 4:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation" WL As another equally perplexed being, let me say I appreciate your bringing this subject up. I think it's a very important area to consider and discuss. Without a clear idea of what a moment of awareness or understanding is supposed to be like, we are likely either to not recognise it when it arises (being so weak and indistinct) or to take some other 'experience' as being awareness and understanding. Actually, the same point could be made about any of the other mental factors, especially the wholesome ones. Without a detailed theoretical knowledge of what they are and how they function it is too easy to take something that is in fact unwholesome for being wholesome. The function of awareness (sati) is to experience directly one of the basic phenomena (dhammas) that make up the present moment. These include such 'mundane' phenomena as seeing and visible object, hearing and sound, thinking and feeling. When awareness arises it will have one of these phenomena as it object, in other words, of one of these phenomena will be experienced directly in a way that is not normally the case. If insight (panna) arises, it sees the true nature of the same object. So to answer your question, I think we need to know as much about insight as possible (what it is, how it functions, what can be its object), consider what the Buddha said about its development and reflect at length on how what we have learnt applies to the present moment. This is not an easy subject, I find. I'm sure you must have given it some thought yourself, and I would very much like to hear your views on it. Jon PS I enjoyed reading your recent exchange with James. --- Uan Chih Liu wrote: > Hi, > I've been following this thread because I was hoping it may > provide me some answers to a question that has been > bothering me. But thus far, perhaps due to my ignorance, > I have not found the answers yet. > > My question is this: How does one know when insight occurs? > How does one know if it is insight, not knowledge, or mere > intellectural understanding of something, since we are so heavily > influenced by what we've been taught, by school, by religion, and > heck, by Buddhism? There are times while I'm contemplating > about things, all of sudden, bang, something becomes clear to me. > I'm sure everyone experiences that. Does that constitute as an > insight or was it merely intellectural understanding or was it > merely > a concept construed by my mind with so much conviction that I > actually thought it was insight? I've found learning and knowledge > > is my best friend and biggest enemy on my journey for seeking for > truth. If anyone can shed some light on this, would appreciate > it. > > A very perplexed being, > WL > 16830 From: abhidhammika Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 6:19am Subject: Re: Nibbana As The Matterless And Sentienceless State Dear Christine You asked: "May somebody explain verse 25 to me, and also, what do you reckon about note 1 below seeming to state there is a form of eternal consciousness?" verse 25: "The consciousness that makes no showing, And in becoming about to disbecome, Not claiming being with respect to all." Where did you get verse 25? I could not find it in MN49 and MN109. Before I explain verse 25, I need to read it in the original Pali. According to Udaana description of nibbana, there is no eternal consciousness. To my knowledge, there is no other type of consciousness outside the consciousness aggrtegate in the five aggregates. You also asked: "what do you reckon about note 1 below seeming to state there is a form of eternal consciousness?" That note is merely Sayadaw Thannisaro's personal speculation (attanomati). It has no backing from the traditional Pali texts. The very fact that he felt the need to write that note showed that he himslef must have found it surprising or unbelievable in the first place. Otherwise, he would not have gone out of his way to write that note. Please kindly read, ponder and stick to the Buddha's own unmistakable definition of nibbaana in Udaana. With kind regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org 16831 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 7:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] subco bhikkhu Hi Larry, He is calm because of the extinguishment of attachment etc. The etc. is for dosa and moha: thus, all defilements. That is true calm. This is not about samatha with the foulness as meditation subject. Restraint of the faculties: no more defilements on account of what is experienced through the six doors. The four Pthas; the stages of enlightenment, he is arahat. Nina op 09-11-2002 01:44 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Thanks for these notes. They are particularly helpful in understanding > the relationship between seeing the foulness of the body and developing > tranquility. > > "N:... He is calm because of the extinguishment of attachment etc. He is > tamed by the restraint of the faculties. He is assured by way of the > four Paths." Weight Age Gender Female Male 16832 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 7:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 21, Comm. A tooth. Dear Larry and Kom, op 07-11-2002 08:29 schreef Kom Tukovinit op kom@a...: > > The Kayanupassana Sattipatthana section does mention many > body parts (still concepts) as objects of the conciousness. > When we talk about the rupas in the 18 elements, the > kandhas, the ayatanas, they are all paramatha dhammas, > however. There are two sorts of breaking down the wholes > (that I see): > 1) Breaking a body into its body parts (the 32 body parts) > 2) Breaking what we see as a whole into the only existence > that can be proven to exist. > > For 1, we can truly see what we take as beautiful body isn't > so beautiful: if this is seen with kusala states, it calms > the mind, and can be an object of samatha development. For > 2, we can truly see what we take as a whole, as a self > (either this self or other selves) are nothing but elements, > kandhas, ayatanas, and can be an object of vipassana (and > samatha) development. > >> The phrase "contemplate the body in the body" is >> said in order to >> isolate body from feeling, citta, and dhamma. So >> the contemplation of >> the elements of rupa here must be different from >> contemplating rupa as a >> khandha in dhammanupassana. Any thoughts on this? Nina: teeth, part of the body. A good reminder, also when not developing a high degree of samatha. What is really there? Mostly we do not notice teeth (unless they ache) but now we are reminded that they are just a body part. A characteristic may appear (when the tongue happens to touch a tooth, but there is thinking also). It can be the element of hardness, only a rupa. We do not have to think of khandha. Larry: So >> the contemplation of >> the elements of rupa here must be different from >> contemplating rupa as a >> khandha in dhammanupassana. N: I take contemplation to be direct awareness, no thinking about which of the four contemplations it must be. Nina. 16833 From: James Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 8:42am Subject: [dsg] Re: luminous, pure . > Until your book arrives, there is the online version (never as > convenient) at the url http://ds al.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/index.html Howard, Thanks for giving me this link; that was very thoughtful of you. Actually, I have been using this online dictionary and have had so many problems with it I was hesitant to buy their print dictionary. The main problem with that online dictionary is that when you conduct a search for a word, they don't give a list of approximate words when that search is done. And many of the posts here, not just Kom's, have misspelled Pali words/terms in them, or incomplete words. Imagine this scenerio, which I have played out more times than I care to remember: I read a sentence that has three Pali words and each of them are essential for understanding the sentence. I go to the online dictionary, which means I must open another window and jump back and forth, and then I find the meaning of the first word. However, I can't find the meaning of the second word. It tells me it doesn't exist and doesn't offer approximate words to choose from. I look up the meaning of the last word, hoping that by context clues I will be able to figure out the sentence. I do get the meaning of that word. However, the missing word makes all of the difference and I still don't understand the sentence. I have spent at least 15 minutes trying to find out the meaning of one sentence, end up fruitless, and see that the rest of the post is FILLED with even more Pali, which may or may not be spelled correctly. Whew! It is a true test of Buddhist equanimity… :-) I knew that I needed a print dictionary to understand these posts. I will keep reading the posts though, and may respond to any which I can understand. Believe it or not, some posts speak to me in a certain way, even when I don't cognitively understand what is written; I can tell that they have said something important. That is why I am willing to dish out $40.00 on a dictionary of a thousands-of- years-old dead language. (The clerk at the bookstore was confused and asked me where they spoke Pali since he had never heard of it. I told him, 'The Internet' :-) Metta, James 16834 From: Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 4:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: luminous, pure . Hi, James - In a message dated 11/10/02 11:43:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > (The clerk at the bookstore was confused and > asked me where they spoke Pali since he had never heard of it. I > told him, 'The Internet' :-) > ===================== ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16835 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 0:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: abhidhamma Dear James I join Christine in what she writes to you, she expressed it very well. Recently I heard A. Sujin say on a tape: Abhidhamma is seeing now, do not think it is just in the book. We should not consider the Abhidhamma as theory at all. It is about the practice: understanding of what appears through the six doors, now. I agree with what Christine says about not forcing any study. Don't feel unconfortable if you do dislike abh, and do not force outselves to take up my book :-) :-) B.T.W. I think you write admirably to kids. Are you a teacher? As to the dictionary: I wrote out on a front page all the letters in Pali alphabeth order, and after those letters the relevant page numbers. I also have a small dictionary: by Buddhadatta, for quick references. Nina. op 09-11-2002 21:23 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@v... > > Like RobM and the members of this List, I too see no contradiciton > between the Suttas and the Abhidhamma. ButI understand a little of > how you feel. If you find theory disturbing, just be > mindful of what arises at the sense doors for a while. 16836 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 0:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: typo. Howard, you made me laugh. Maybe a Freudian slip unknowingly? :-) op 10-11-2002 01:44 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a... > > In a message dated 11/9/02 7:23:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@a... > writes: > >> it is Abhidhamma-oriented but not not >> Abhidhamma-bound, > ======================== > The double negative was just a typo, and not a Freudian slip! ;-)) > > 16837 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 0:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nibbana As The Matterless And Sentienceless State Dear Christine and Suan Jim explained before that in this case vi~n~naa.na does not mean citta, but: what should be understood. ~naa.na is understanding. This is applicable to nibbana. Since people do not realize this, they become confused and believe that nibbana must be a certain type of consciousness. Nina op 10-11-2002 15:19 schreef abhidhammika op suanluzaw@b...: > > "May somebody explain verse 25 to me, and also, what do you reckon > about note 1 below seeming to state there is a form of eternal > consciousness?" 16838 From: James Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 1:25pm Subject: Re: abhidhamma Nina, Thank you for writing. Can I ask you something? Can I have your autograph? :-) I must admit I have been reading your book, the peer- pressure has been too great to resist! :-) But I see that the pressure is for good reason, it is an excellent book. Your writing doesn't have a lot of the 'filler' analysis most Buddhist works have, so it requires that I think for myself most of the time. Hmmm…yea, I guess I do need your autograph, on my lawsuit against you for my mental pain and suffering! LOL! Just kidding. It will take me some time to turn the theory into natural practice as you say, but perhaps I will get there. Thank you for the encouraging words. Thank you for the compliment about my letters to the kids. Yes I am a teacher. It really isn't a big secret as to how to communicate with kids. Kids are starting life new; what do you do for anyone who is starting something new? Well, the same things the members of this group have done for me in regards to my new Abhidhamma studies: Encourage, reassure, focus on the positive, point out successes, don't dismiss doubt, give specific advice, have a sense of humor, and express love and caring. I guess I am a kid at heart too (and my last name is Mitchell, as in Dennis Mitchell AKA Dennis the Menace..hmmmm... ;-)…. Metta, James Ps. I agree with you, Christine Rocks!! 16839 From: Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 10:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: typo. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 11/10/02 3:47:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > Howard, > you made me laugh. Maybe a Freudian slip unknowingly? :-) > > ====================== Hmm! A slipping, unmanifestive!! ;-)) - Howard "One can't believe impossible things." "I daresay you haven't had much practice," said the Queen. "When I was your age, I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast." - Lewis Carroll Vi~n~nanam means whatever I define it to mean - Lewis Carroll (or somebody! ;-) ======================= I do apologize. I just couldn't resist! (Mara made me do it! ;-)) With manic metta, Howard P.S. While I'm at it, here's a genuine quote of Lewis Carroll which shows the importance of Right Understanding: "If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there." ;-)) /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16840 From: Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 5:10pm Subject: Way 23, Comm "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html Continuing commentary on "lives contemplating the body in the body, ardent... " And here, by the passage: "For the determining of the object by isolating it, and for the sifting out thoroughly of the apparently compact nature of things like continuity," this too should be understood: This person contemplates in this body only the body; he does not contemplate anything else. What does this mean? In this definitely transient, suffering, soulless body, that is unlovely, he does not see permanence, pleasure, a soul, nor beauty, after the manner of those animals which see water in a mirage. Body-contemplation is only the contemplation of the collection of qualities of transiency, suffering, soullessness, and unloveliness. Because there is no contemplating of the body with reference to a self or to anything belonging to a self, owing to the contemplating even of collections of things like the hair of the head, there is the character of contemplating, in the body, the body which is a collection of things like the hair of the head. The meaning should be understood thus too: "contemplating the body in the body" is the seeing of the body as a group of all qualities beginning with impermanence, step by step, as taught in the passage of the Patisambhida which begins with: "In this body he contemplates according to impermanence and not permanence." The bhikkhu sees the body in the body, (1) as something impermanent; (2) as something subject to suffering; (3) as something that is soulless; (4) by way of turning away from it and not by way of delighting in it; (5) by freeing himself of passion for it; (6) with thoughts making for cessation and not making for origination; (7) and not by way of laying hold of it, but by way of giving it up. Viharati = "Lives." Atapi = "Ardent". What burns the defilement of the three planes of becoming is ardour. Ardour is a name for energy. [Tika] Although the term burning [atapana] is applied to the abandoning of defilements here, it is also applicable to right view, thought, speech, action, livelihood, mindfulness and concentration. As "ardour" [atapa], like "glow" [atappa], is restricted by use to just energy generally, it is said: "ardour is a name for energy." Or because of the occurrence of energy [viriya] by way of instigating the associated things, in the abandoning of opposing qualities, that itself (i.e., energy) is ardour (atapa]. In this place only energy [viriya] is referred to by "atapa". By taking the word ardent [atapi] the Master points out the one possessed of right energy or exertion [sammappadhana]. 16841 From: Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 6:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 23, Comm Way 23: Body-contemplation is only the contemplation of the collection of qualities of transiency, suffering, soullessness, and unloveliness. Hi all, Looks like contemplation of the body in the body isolates the body as object from the objects 'feeling', 'consciousness', and 'dhamma' but includes the characteristics of unloveliness, suffering, transiency and soullessness. As for the ardor of right effort there is this from A. IV, 13 in Nyanatiloka's "Buddhist Dictionary": "The monk rouses his will to *avoid* the arising of evil, unwholesome things not yet arisen ... to *overcome* them ... to *develop* wholesome things not yet arisen ... to *maintain* them, and not let them disappear, but to bring them to growth, to maturity and to the full perfection of development. And he makes effort, stirs up energy, exerts his mind and strives." See also Nina's Perfection of Energy in the archives. Larry 16842 From: Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 2:50pm Subject: Apology for Heedlessness (Re: [dsg] Re: typo.) Hi again, Nina (and all) - I just re-read the following attempt at humor by me, and, to my dismay, I can see that it might easily be considered offensive. That was far from my intention. (In fact, I intended it to be open to alternative readings one of which makes fun of myself.) Please excuse me for not being more careful. I do apologize if I caused any offense by this. I wouldn't want to offend even those whom I think little of, let alone you folks whom I value so highly! With metta, Howard In a message dated 11/10/02 6:08:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: > > Hi, Nina - > > In a message dated 11/10/02 3:47:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, > nilo@e... > writes: > > >Howard, > >you made me laugh. Maybe a Freudian slip unknowingly? :-) > > > > > ====================== > Hmm! A slipping, unmanifestive!! ;-)) - Howard > > "One can't believe impossible things." > "I daresay you haven't had much practice," said the Queen. "When I was your > > age, I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed > as > many as six impossible things before breakfast." - Lewis Carroll > > Vi~n~nanam means whatever I define it to mean - Lewis Carroll (or somebody! > > ;-) > ======================= > I do apologize. I just couldn't resist! (Mara made me do it! ;-)) > > With manic metta, > Howard > > P.S. While I'm at it, here's a genuine quote of Lewis Carroll which shows > the > importance of Right Understanding: "If you don't know where you are going, > any road will get you there." ;-)) > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16843 From: James Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 8:13pm Subject: Apology for Heedlessness (Re: [dsg] Re: typo.) Howard, Offensive? Huh? I thought your post was really thought provoking. Lewis Carrol is one of my favorite authors because of his ability to show the absurdity of holding onto the meanings of words, ideas, or beliefs too tightly. He purposefully shakes up the reader so that what was once taken for granted won't be taken for granted any longer. Very Buddhist Detachment and very Zen. I appreciated your post for its deeper meaning and humor. I don't think you were offending anyone, you were just pointing out that things aren't always what they seem…especially words. Often times I am just plain silly, but you were silly with a higher purpose. I hope that you continue to occasionally rattle all of our cages of assumed reality. Metta, James 16844 From: James Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 9:25pm Subject: Re: Way 23, Comm --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html [Tika] Although the term burning [atapana] is applied to the abandoning of defilements here, it is also applicable to right view, thought, speech, action, livelihood, mindfulness and concentration. As "ardour" [atapa], like "glow" [atappa], is restricted by use to just energy generally, it is said: "ardour is a name for energy." Or because of the occurrence of energy [viriya] by way of instigating the associated things, in the abandoning of opposing qualities, that itself (i.e., energy) is ardour (atapa]. In this place only energy [viriya] is referred to by "atapa". By taking the word ardent [atapi] the Master points out the one possessed of right energy or exertion [sammappadhana]. Hi All, It is funny that I read this tonight because it touches on something I was thinking about. Tonight I am having one of those nights, I am not sure if others have these times or not, when I am naturally reflective, naturally peaceful, and naturally meditative. I was driving back home from seeing a movie, and I spontaneously became aware of my breathing through my nose. I felt every breath and felt calm seep through my body like water through a sponge. I came home and I immediately wanted to meditate and felt that my mind was very alert. And, though not Buddhist detachment, I kept thinking to myself, "What in the heck did I do differently tonight? I really appreciate this state-of-mind and would like to be able to repeat it at will. Why can't I be like this all of the time? Or at least most of the time?" In reading the suttas, I know that the Buddha encouraged his monks to cultivate this `mental attitude' using the methods listed above. So obviously, the Buddha knew that such a state doesn't arise naturally that often and it must be worked on. However, I have found that the natural states are about 80% better in quality and benefit than those states that are forced naturally. For example, I can set up a schedule for meditation everyday at a certain time and for a certain length. Often times, following this schedule is not easy or fun. Of course, when the meditation is over, I am thankful that I did it; but I don't approach it usually as something I really want to do. However, when I have one of the states like I have tonight, I can hardly wait to meditate. I almost felt like pulling my car off the road and meditating for a while or so. And the resulting meditation tonight was more reflective, calm and inspiring than that I have forced. I guess what I am thinking about is to how to generate that natural enthusiasm for meditation artificially? Is that even possible or is that an oxymoron? And those meditators who say that it doesn't matter the reason for doing it, it should just be done…are not being completely honest. It does matter or the Buddha wouldn't have encouraged his monks to cultivate the desire to meditate. I have searched for many years to find the secret to how to use the artificial to create a natural, or close to natural, enthusiasm about meditation and I have yet to find that secret. Honestly, guilt about not meditating has been the most effective motivator for me to do it lately. And this doesn't always work so I don't meditate as often as I should, or as often as I did when I first began meditation. I guess the love affair is over. How can I put some 'Spice' back into my relationship with meditation? Hmmm…sounds like an article for a 'Buddhist Galmour' magazine! :-) Just my thoughts. If anyone has specific advice or techniques that have worked for you, I would welcome input. Metta, James 16845 From: James Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 10:57pm Subject: Re: luminous, pure . --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "James" wrote: (BTW, > th